Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

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Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Think I'm making this shit up? Read on...
Scientists claim the giant atom-smashing Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is being jinxed from the future to save the world.

In a bizarre sci-fi theory, Danish physicist Dr Holger Bech Nielsen and Dr Masao Ninomiya from Japan claim nature is trying to prevent the LHC from finding the elusive Higgs boson. Called the "God particle," the theoretical boson could explain the origins of mass in the universe — if physicists can find the darn thing.

The scientists say their math proves nature will "ripple backward through time" to stop the LHC before it can create the God particle, like a time traveller who goes back in time to kill his grandfather.

“One could even almost say that we have a model for God,” Dr Nielsen says in an unpublished essay. “He rather hates Higgs particles, and attempts to avoid them.”

"While it is a paradox to go back in time and kill your grandfather, physicists agree there is no paradox if you go back in time and save him from being hit by a bus," Dannis Overbye wrote in the New York Times.

"In the case of the Higgs and the collider, it is as if something is going back in time to keep the universe from being hit by a bus."

“It must be our prediction that all Higgs producing machines shall have bad luck,” Dr Nielsen told the New York Times.

European science agency CERN designed the world's biggest particle accelerator to shoot beams around a freezing 27km concrete ring underground near Geneva, smashing atoms together in search of the elusive "God particle" believed present at the Big Bang.

The multi-billion-dollar machine, built over almost 20 years, was set to launch in late 2008 but broke down after it overheated during a test run.

The relaunch was pushed back to late 2009 as more parts had to be replaced, and CERN was recently scandalised when a LHC scientist was found to have approached al-Qaeda for work.

The LHC - which features in sci-fi plots such as Dan Brown's Angels and Demons and the new TV show FlashForward - has been dubbed a "doomsday device" with claims it will open black holes.

Last year, Professor Brian Cox of Manchester University told the UK Telegraph that LHC scientists had received threatening emails and phone calls demanding that the experiment be halted.

But Prof Cox, ex-keyboardist for 1990's pop group D:REAM, dismissed the hysteria in rock-star style.

"Anyone who thinks the LHC will destroy the world is a tw—," he said.

The LHC is set to start up again next month.
I'm not sure what to make of this except to think that scientists must have access to some great drugs. If one of our more math and physics incline members could explain what the hell these guys are on about I'd appreciate it (and be vastly entertained as well).

Also, if the mods think this isn't quite SLAM material just move it where ever...
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by Darth Wong »

FOXNews. Seriously, while I can't dismiss the possibility that some crackpot would advance this idea and expect others to listen, I'm not inclined to assume that it's being reported fairly or accurately in this source.
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by The Spartan »

Guys, look! We figured out how to get our names in the news even though we're not doing any research interesting enough to be noticed by the outside world!

I would be shocked, shocked!, if that's not a prime motivation for them.
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Darth Wong wrote:FOXNews. Seriously, while I can't dismiss the possibility that some crackpot would advance this idea and expect others to listen, I'm not inclined to assume that it's being reported fairly or accurately in this source.
Yeah, I kinda figured it's bullshit and Fox (not)News reporting it makes it even more suspect, but the thought of people with science degrees trying to blame mechanical failures on time travel and "God didit" in a premise that's make Geordi LaForge reverse his polarity and shit a solid gold cat is pretty damned hilarious.

Seriously though, I'm having trouble wraping my head around how their idea isn't a paradox. Using their premise of going back in time to prevent your grandfrather from getting hit by a bus, if you did that it would mean your grandfather never got hit by a bus and that you wouldn't have a need to go back in time, only then grandpa would get hit by a bus and you'd have to go back in time to save him only to rinse and repeat. Not sure how the hell that's not a paradox, but according to Dr. Nielson and Dr. Ninomiya it's not. So if someone who understands such stuff could clear that up for me before my brain implodes it'd be swell.
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by Korvan »

There's a scifi short story written during the cold war (can't remember the name) that is similar to this. A couple of scientists are discussing the possibility that the project they are working on could actually destroy the universe. One of them remarks that with multiple universes, there would always be surviving universes in which a glitch prevented the machine from being turned on.

They then come up with a plan to create the machine with as few moving parts as possible and hook it up to radiation detection devices to destroy the universe in the event of a nuclear war. The idea being with the device being solid state, something preventing the nuclear war from occurring is more likely than a failure in the device, thus the device actually would prevent nuclear war.

One of the scientists goes on about this winning them a Nobel prize and the other one remarks that you have to be original to win the prize and that given the numerous close calls so far, it is likely that the Russians have already built such a device.
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by phongn »

New York Times wrote:More than a year after an explosion of sparks, soot and frigid helium shut it down, the world’s biggest and most expensive physics experiment, known as the Large Hadron Collider, is poised to start up again. In December, if all goes well, protons will start smashing together in an underground racetrack outside Geneva in a search for forces and particles that reigned during the first trillionth of a second of the Big Bang.

Then it will be time to test one of the most bizarre and revolutionary theories in science. I’m not talking about extra dimensions of space-time, dark matter or even black holes that eat the Earth. No, I’m talking about the notion that the troubled collider is being sabotaged by its own future. A pair of otherwise distinguished physicists have suggested that the hypothesized Higgs boson, which physicists hope to produce with the collider, might be so abhorrent to nature that its creation would ripple backward through time and stop the collider before it could make one, like a time traveler who goes back in time to kill his grandfather.

Holger Bech Nielsen, of the Niels Bohr Institute in Copenhagen, and Masao Ninomiya of the Yukawa Institute for Theoretical Physics in Kyoto, Japan, put this idea forward in a series of papers with titles like “Test of Effect From Future in Large Hadron Collider: a Proposal” and “Search for Future Influence From LHC,” posted on the physics Web site arXiv.org in the last year and a half.

According to the so-called Standard Model that rules almost all physics, the Higgs is responsible for imbuing other elementary particles with mass.

“It must be our prediction that all Higgs producing machines shall have bad luck,” Dr. Nielsen said in an e-mail message. In an unpublished essay, Dr. Nielson said of the theory, “Well, one could even almost say that we have a model for God.” It is their guess, he went on, “that He rather hates Higgs particles, and attempts to avoid them.”

This malign influence from the future, they argue, could explain why the United States Superconducting Supercollider, also designed to find the Higgs, was canceled in 1993 after billions of dollars had already been spent, an event so unlikely that Dr. Nielsen calls it an “anti-miracle.”

You might think that the appearance of this theory is further proof that people have had ample time — perhaps too much time — to think about what will come out of the collider, which has been 15 years and $9 billion in the making.

The collider was built by CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, to accelerate protons to energies of seven trillion electron volts around an 18-mile underground racetrack and then crash them together into primordial fireballs.

For the record, as of the middle of September, CERN engineers hope to begin to collide protons at the so-called injection energy of 450 billion electron volts in December and then ramp up the energy until the protons have 3.5 trillion electron volts of energy apiece and then, after a short Christmas break, real physics can begin.

Maybe.

Dr. Nielsen and Dr. Ninomiya started laying out their case for doom in the spring of 2008. It was later that fall, of course, after the CERN collider was turned on, that a connection between two magnets vaporized, shutting down the collider for more than a year.

Dr. Nielsen called that “a funny thing that could make us to believe in the theory of ours.”

He agreed that skepticism would be in order. After all, most big science projects, including the Hubble Space Telescope, have gone through a period of seeming jinxed. At CERN, the beat goes on: Last weekend the French police arrested a particle physicist who works on one of the collider experiments, on suspicion of conspiracy with a North African wing of Al Qaeda.

Dr. Nielsen and Dr. Ninomiya have proposed a kind of test: that CERN engage in a game of chance, a “card-drawing” exercise using perhaps a random-number generator, in order to discern bad luck from the future. If the outcome was sufficiently unlikely, say drawing the one spade in a deck with 100 million hearts, the machine would either not run at all, or only at low energies unlikely to find the Higgs.

Sure, it’s crazy, and CERN should not and is not about to mortgage its investment to a coin toss. The theory was greeted on some blogs with comparisons to Harry Potter. But craziness has a fine history in a physics that talks routinely about cats being dead and alive at the same time and about anti-gravity puffing out the universe.

As Niels Bohr, Dr. Nielsen’s late countryman and one of the founders of quantum theory, once told a colleague: “We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct.”

Dr. Nielsen is well-qualified in this tradition. He is known in physics as one of the founders of string theory and a deep and original thinker, “one of those extremely smart people that is willing to chase crazy ideas pretty far,” in the words of Sean Carroll, a Caltech physicist and author of a coming book about time, “From Eternity to Here.”

Another of Dr. Nielsen’s projects is an effort to show how the universe as we know it, with all its apparent regularity, could arise from pure randomness, a subject he calls “random dynamics.”

Dr. Nielsen admits that he and Dr. Ninomiya’s new theory smacks of time travel, a longtime interest, which has become a respectable research subject in recent years. While it is a paradox to go back in time and kill your grandfather, physicists agree there is no paradox if you go back in time and save him from being hit by a bus. In the case of the Higgs and the collider, it is as if something is going back in time to keep the universe from being hit by a bus. Although just why the Higgs would be a catastrophe is not clear. If we knew, presumably, we wouldn’t be trying to make one.

We always assume that the past influences the future. But that is not necessarily true in the physics of Newton or Einstein. According to physicists, all you really need to know, mathematically, to describe what happens to an apple or the 100 billion galaxies of the universe over all time are the laws that describe how things change and a statement of where things start. The latter are the so-called boundary conditions — the apple five feet over your head, or the Big Bang.

The equations work just as well, Dr. Nielsen and others point out, if the boundary conditions specify a condition in the future (the apple on your head) instead of in the past, as long as the fundamental laws of physics are reversible, which most physicists believe they are.

“For those of us who believe in physics,” Einstein once wrote to a friend, “this separation between past, present and future is only an illusion.”

In Kurt Vonnegut’s novel “Sirens of Titan,” all of human history turns out to be reduced to delivering a piece of metal roughly the size and shape of a beer-can opener to an alien marooned on Saturn’s moon so he can repair his spaceship and go home.

Whether the collider has such a noble or humble fate — or any fate at all — remains to be seen. As a Red Sox fan my entire adult life, I feel I know something about jinxes.
Also, the two papers in question:
Test of Influence from Future in Large Hadron Collider; A Proposal (arXiv)
Search for Effect of Influence from Future in Large Hadron Collider (arXiv, IJMPA)
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by Darth Wong »

arXiv is not a conventional peer-reviewed journal. I wonder if they're knowingly being a bit whimsical when they put this up. This reminds me of the "cosmic timecop" theory to explain how time-travel paradoxes would be prevented. It was never really a serious theory; just something physicists might idly speak of as a way of solving a problem that might not even be a real issue.
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by Dooey Jo »

Well, it's a "convenient" and unprovable way to make the Higgs boson undetectable, while still pretending it exists...
Mr. Coffee wrote:Seriously though, I'm having trouble wraping my head around how their idea isn't a paradox. Using their premise of going back in time to prevent your grandfrather from getting hit by a bus, if you did that it would mean your grandfather never got hit by a bus and that you wouldn't have a need to go back in time, only then grandpa would get hit by a bus and you'd have to go back in time to save him only to rinse and repeat. Not sure how the hell that's not a paradox, but according to Dr. Nielson and Dr. Ninomiya it's not. So if someone who understands such stuff could clear that up for me before my brain implodes it'd be swell.
If he did get hit by a bus, then it would be a paradox to go back in time and succeed in preventing him from getting hit. If he was about to get hit by a bus, but someone pushed him out of the way, then it's not a paradox to go back in time and turn out to be that someone.
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by phongn »

Darth Wong wrote:arXiv is not a conventional peer-reviewed journal.
Well, yes, it's a pre-print repository - I sort of assumed that most people reading these sorts of threads would know that.
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

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Mr. Coffee wrote:Seriously though, I'm having trouble wraping my head around how their idea isn't a paradox. Using their premise of going back in time to prevent your grandfrather from getting hit by a bus, if you did that it would mean your grandfather never got hit by a bus and that you wouldn't have a need to go back in time, only then grandpa would get hit by a bus and you'd have to go back in time to save him only to rinse and repeat. Not sure how the hell that's not a paradox, but according to Dr. Nielson and Dr. Ninomiya it's not. So if someone who understands such stuff could clear that up for me before my brain implodes it'd be swell.
As Dooey Jo said, it's not a paradox. It is, however, a causality loop, which is weird enough. So far as I know, there's nothing logically impossible about a causality loop, but our brains aren't wired at all to deal with them well.
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by starslayer »

Ah yes, these two papers. The authors are well-known physicists, and if you read the papers, you'll find that the English and physics in them is not up to snuff for a publishable paper; they're pretty obvious jokes to anyone with even a passing knowledge of academia and quantum physics.
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

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starslayer wrote:Ah yes, these two papers. The authors are well-known physicists, and if you read the papers, you'll find that the English and physics in them is not up to snuff for a publishable paper; they're pretty obvious jokes to anyone with even a passing knowledge of academia and quantum physics.
So in other words, the yellow journalists simply picked up some joke scribblings from notebooks and morphed them into quotations from a supposedly scientific paper.
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by Count Chocula »

Mr. Coffee wrote:I'm not sure what to make of this except to think that scientists must have access to some great drugs. If one of our more math and physics incline members could explain what the hell these guys are on about I'd appreciate it (and be vastly entertained as well).
Considering that Albert Hofmann invented LSD while working at Sandoz in Switzerland, and the LHC is sited in Switzerland, I'd say it's possible. :wink:

Holy Cow, the Swiss know how to pull pranks? That's a new one, *I'm a smarmy asshole*?
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by loomer »

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the physicists on the bleeding edge do indulge in the odd psychotropic. Didn't the guy who worked out the basic form of DNA's structure realize it was in a double helix while he was tripping with LSD (incidentally, my birthday is Bicycle Day. Pretty nifty.) and make his wife sketch down what was in his head, based on what he already knew about the stuff? And the chap who found the structure of benzene (I think it was benzene. Something in that vague family) had the realization come in a dream.

Could be that the human brain isn't wired just right and needs a little push sometimes.

But clearly this future sabotage is actually just the Doctor, racing to stop a sinister Dalek plot to destroy the world via micro-blackholes!
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by Mayabird »

loomer wrote:Didn't the guy who worked out the basic form of DNA's structure realize it was in a double helix while he was tripping with LSD (incidentally, my birthday is Bicycle Day. Pretty nifty.) and make his wife sketch down what was in his head, based on what he already knew about the stuff?
No, the little shitheads did it by stealing Rosalind Franklin's work, throwing some guesses together, and rushing a paper through before she had time to properly analyze all her data, and then laughing as she died of cancer that she probably got from her own painstaking research all the way to the Nobel Prize. Fuck Watson and Crick.

Better example might be Carl Sagan's marijuana use.
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by Count Chocula »

I have a copy of The Double Helix on my bookshelf. It's an interesting account, although to Maya's point it's pretty self-aggrandizing (it was authored by Watson). If I recall correctly, as it's been several years since I read it, he doesn't even talk about Crick very much.
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Re: Scientists Claim LHC Is Being Sabbotaged From the Future...

Post by starslayer »

Patrick Degan wrote:So in other words, the yellow journalists simply picked up some joke scribblings from notebooks and morphed them into quotations from a supposedly scientific paper.
Yeah, pretty much. I mean, even if you don't know a damned thing about QM, go ahead and read one or both of the papers. You'll see stuff like "phantasy" and "Walles" (for Alfred Russell Wallace; yeah, they mention evolution :lol:). A fucking Scientific American article would be more rigorous and well written compared to what they put out. And they also make a ton of analogies that are clearly designed for more layman readers. Hint: physicists do not use those analogies in real papers. They tend to let the math and figures speak for themselves, especially in theoretical papers.
Chocula wrote:Holy Cow, the Swiss know how to pull pranks? That's a new one, *I'm a smarmy asshole*?
Actually, neither of the authors is Swiss; one is Danish and the other is Japanese. I don't know if either is affiliated with CERN.

I'll post a more detailed explanation of what they're talking about, and how they're hilariously wrong, if I get a chance once I've fully read the papers.
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