WALL E question

[Mr Bean]

The BnL world seems to be a post scarcity world everyone can agree? Since the robots can build other robots and other robots maintain the robots? Could the pre loss BnL world simply been a case of temporary utopia where nearly all work was handled by robots? After all the Axion passengers are the descendants of the descendants of original colonists and crew.

[Guardsman Bass]

The BnL world seems to be a post scarcity world everyone can agree? Since the robots can build other robots and other robots maintain the robots? Could the pre loss BnL world simply been a case of temporary utopia where nearly all work was handled by robots? After all the Axion passengers are the descendants of the descendants of original colonists and crew.

That's certainly what it seems like. As far as we can tell, the robots basically did everything on the Axiom from maintenance and entertainment to garbage elimination (which meant that presumably they were harvesting raw material from space and refining it for the humans' usage) - the humans themselves seemed to just live off that largesse. Which says something for BNL, I suppose - while the ships were supposed to be just a stop-gap for Operation Re-Colonize (witness the Captain's quip about the "seven-hundredth anniversary of their five-year voyage"), they built those ships to fucking last.

Which raises the question, of course, as to why they simply dumped all their garbage on Earth, ruining it, as opposed to using their advanced technology to dump it off-planet and feed off the nearly limitless resources space would provide for their civilization.

[montypython]

If the BnL world were truly post-scarcity, recycling should be no issue in any event, with plentiful energy being around for reprocessing, since in that situation space on biosphere would be far more limiting than materials for use, and the energy consumption of recycling is still far less than moving large quantities of mass into space and any FTL drives for that matter too. Something like a World Devastator would have a field day with the junk piles on Earth there.

[Molyneux]

If the BnL world were truly post-scarcity, recycling should be no issue in any event, with plentiful energy being around for reprocessing, since in that situation space on biosphere would be far more limiting than materials for use, and the energy consumption of recycling is still far less than moving large quantities of mass into space and any FTL drives for that matter too. Something like a World Devastator would have a field day with the junk piles on Earth there.

It seems feasible to me that the robots the humans brought with them may have been self-upgrading - compare WALL-E to something like EVE in terms of tech level - or that the humans may have made some innovations of their own in the generations before brain rot really set in. The tech level seen on board the Axiom may not necessarily reflect the same tech level it had when it lifted off.

[Gramzamber]

If the BnL world were truly post-scarcity, recycling should be no issue in any event, with plentiful energy being around for reprocessing, since in that situation space on biosphere would be far more limiting than materials for use, and the energy consumption of recycling is still far less than moving large quantities of mass into space and any FTL drives for that matter too. Something like a World Devastator would have a field day with the junk piles on Earth there.

It seems feasible to me that the robots the humans brought with them may have been self-upgrading - compare WALL-E to something like EVE in terms of tech level - or that the humans may have made some innovations of their own in the generations before brain rot really set in. The tech level seen on board the Axiom may not necessarily reflect the same tech level it had when it lifted off.

Given that the BnL President and the 700 year old Operation Manual talk about the EVE probes I'd think that unlikely.
WALL-E is, essentially, a garbage compactor. It's not his job to look shiny and advanced. Note the equally grungy WALL-As on the Axiom. EVE has capabilities that WALL-E doesn't simply because she's a different robot with a different job involving high speed recon of alien worlds (given her name I assume that's what she was originally designed for).

[Zixinus]

Just re-watched the movie. Wow, it really played well.

I've took notes:

1. Where are the humans that didn't leave? The city Wall-E (henceforth, "Walle" because I am lazy) is in appears to be simply abandoned, not destroyed. Underground cities perhaps?

2. The luxury ships were able to keep themselves working for centuries. Why not the Wall-E units? After all, when the evacuation started, both technologies were on the same level.

3. There is still power in the city. Walle's little hideout still has lights and whatnot and the advertisements still work. Possible indicator that there are other humans about, still using and operating that power? Or just robots with a better lifespan than the walle units?

4. It's interesting to see that Walle was able to rapidly dig himself to safety when the rocket came to land. Either Walle adopted to the situation fast or there is a possibility of Wall-E units being designed for something else?

5. During EVE's capsule opening: why are there keypad-like opening instructions? Why didn't the rocket's AI just give a radio signal?

6. After Walle escorted Eve to his lair, Walle apparently opens the doors by remote, as opposed to manual like in the beginning.

7. What makes 5# seem more stange when Eve finds a plant: she is clearly sending a strong enough radio/EM signal to punch out nearby electronics with the exception to Walle.

8. It appears that no one bothered to commemorate one of the Apollo mission capsules. There is literally a BL advertisement a few kilometres from landing site.

9. One of the thrusters of the eve-rocket appears to be have been damaged during the mission. It is not working.

10. Walle not only appears to understand English, but seems to be both friendly and helpful to humans (he understood one's situation and need to get back to his chair immediately, even abandoning his momentary goals). I doubtful about human incrimination theories.

11. Why is the secretary typing? She's a robot, she can write things far more effectively in a purely digital manner. My guess that its a psychological thing: people expect secretaries that use only two fingers to type.

12. [Obvious plot point, this note is removed.]

13. "Regenative food replicators" is what the captain asks during his routine ship checkup. It's weird that he doesn't have a second of any sort. Perhaps there was one but nobody bothered, seeing as Nav does everything just fine anyway.

14. The BnL ceo talks about microgravity yet there appears to be some gravity in effect on the Axion. Why is this? Or just the writer confused about the terms?

15. Either Walle has some sort of weird, bohemic-behaviour causing virus that he spreads by sheer contact or by his barely-modulated voice, or the programming of the robots is real bad. M-o, or Mo almost immediately goes against his non-goal programming with no trouble, all while causing traffic chaos. The secretary robot is the same case.

16. Bad (or perhaps too good?) programming is easily confirmed during a check to the repair bay. It's full of robots going against their programming.

17. Auto's pretty much a victim of his programming. While every robot appears to easily go beyond its intended programming and even develop apparently bohemian ideas, the autopilot is unable to change its goal-structure even when confronted. Possibly a different design than the rest of the low-grade robots?

18. Why the air-things on everybody's bag? They appears to be filters of some kind.

19. Nav is clearly incapable of overcoming its programming and is malfunctioning. He almost killed his passengers to follow A113. Therefore, A113 is higher than any other goal for him, including taking care of the passengers.

20. In the ending credits, it shows new capsules landing and joining the new crew. It seems that the signal has spread to other luxury ships.

[Gramzamber]

1. Where are the humans that didn't leave? The city Wall-E (henceforth, "Walle" because I am lazy) is in appears to be simply abandoned, not destroyed. Underground cities perhaps?

Most likely dead. Given the nature of the movie you're not really supposed to think about that, but given that the atmosphere was highly toxic by the time of the President's last message it seems likely.
Maybe some made it to underground shelters but you'd think somebody would've emerged after 700 years.

2. The luxury ships were able to keep themselves working for centuries. Why not the Wall-E units? After all, when the evacuation started, both technologies were on the same level.

In the storyboard scenes on the second DVD, there's some dialog about how the BnL President sent a shutdown signal to all WALL-Es after declaring Operation Recolonize a failure. There's nothing in the movie to contradict this so it's as good an explanation as any. Presumably our WALL-E somehow missed the signal, or his reciever malfunctioned.

3. There is still power in the city. Walle's little hideout still has lights and whatnot and the advertisements still work. Possible indicator that there are other humans about, still using and operating that power? Or just robots with a better lifespan than the walle units?

Given that even that sign on the moon is operational, presumably they have some sort of self-sustaining power plants that were never shut off, perhaps solar power like WALL-E.

4. It's interesting to see that Walle was able to rapidly dig himself to safety when the rocket came to land. Either Walle adopted to the situation fast or there is a possibility of Wall-E units being designed for something else?

I assumed that as a trash disposal unit he'd need to be able to dig through mass amounts of trash and/or dig landfill.

5. During EVE's capsule opening: why are there keypad-like opening instructions? Why didn't the rocket's AI just give a radio signal?

Because it's cute.

7. What makes 5# seem more stange when Eve finds a plant: she is clearly sending a strong enough radio/EM signal to punch out nearby electronics with the exception to Walle.

Well, perhaps EVE's outer shell's keypad was a security measure, that's all I can think of.

8. It appears that no one bothered to commemorate one of the Apollo mission capsules. There is literally a BL advertisement a few kilometres from landing site.

Yeah I think it was to show how BnL's consumer society was solely interested in development, expansion and serving the needs of the bloated corporate machine; in the DVD extras it's shown that BnL's world headquarters are in Buckingham Palace - further showing that BnL have no respect for historical sites for their own sake.

10. Walle not only appears to understand English, but seems to be both friendly and helpful to humans (he understood one's situation and need to get back to his chair immediately, even abandoning his momentary goals). I doubtful about human incrimination theories.

He seems to have been stationed in an American city, and all BnL robots seem to understand english so that's logical. He may also have base programming to be curtious to humans since WALL-E units were the public face of the cleanup effort.
Plus he's just a nice robot.

11. Why is the secretary typing? She's a robot, she can write things far more effectively in a purely digital manner. My guess that its a psychological thing: people expect secretaries that use only two fingers to type.

Purely stylistic, both in and out of universe I'd say.

14. The BnL ceo talks about microgravity yet there appears to be some gravity in effect on the Axion. Why is this? Or just the writer confused about the terms?

They possibly meant to say gravity such as on Mars but got confused, yes.

15. Either Walle has some sort of weird, bohemic-behaviour causing virus that he spreads by sheer contact or by his barely-modulated voice, or the programming of the robots is real bad. M-o, or Mo almost immediately goes against his non-goal programming with no trouble, all while causing traffic chaos. The secretary robot is the same case.

They have been doing their job for some 700 years, it's actually quite good programming for sentient robots to be restrained that long.

17. Auto's pretty much a victim of his programming. While every robot appears to easily go beyond its intended programming and even develop apparently bohemian ideas, the autopilot is unable to change its goal-structure even when confronted. Possibly a different design than the rest of the low-grade robots?

I believe that's said in the commentary, while WALL-E, EVE and others have the capacity to think beyond their programming, Auto's mind is so rigidly focused on his directives that he can't concieve of going against them.
As the primary AI of the ship I'm sure BnL made damn sure the Autos were especially robust.

18. Why the air-things on everybody's bag? They appears to be filters of some kind.

At the end? I assumed those were a precaution to protect the plant (for whatever reason)

19. Nav is clearly incapable of overcoming its programming and is malfunctioning. He almost killed his passengers to follow A113. Therefore, A113 is higher than any other goal for him, including taking care of the passengers.

Doesn't the President say that A113 overrides all previous orders?
If that's the case, then Auto probably interprets that literally, when A113 is threatened, all other orders including the safety of the passengers become obsolete.

20. In the ending credits, it shows new capsules landing and joining the new crew. It seems that the signal has spread to other luxury ships.

It could be just capsules from the Axiom launched to have quicker access to survival resources inside or to use as makeshift homes.

[Samuel]

They have been doing their job for some 700 years, it's actually quite good programming for sentient robots to be restrained that long.

Not really- presumably they are automatically repaired after a given length of time. Or tossed out as garbage.

I believe that's said in the commentary, while WALL-E, EVE and others have the capacity to think beyond their programming, Auto's mind is so rigidly focused on his directives that he can't concieve of going against them.

How can you program something to ignore its programming?

[PeZook]

Actually, Auto may be perfectly able to "think beyond his programming". He presented an argument to the captain in support of his position, and it was a pretty good one: it's a minor miracle the bloated blobs of fat managed to survive at all in the charred wasteland that was Earth. The Axiom guaranteed survival ; Coming back to Earth carried a great risk of a mass die-off within a year.

Seriously. Their survival skills were on the level of agriculture -> ??? -> Pizza!

[Zixinus]

Maybe some made it to underground shelters but you'd think somebody would've emerged after 700 years.

Or they don't go out for the same reasons for why people didn't leave the Axiom. They live a comfortable life with plenty of food and entertainment in a post-scarcity society.

Any attempt to go out of sheer curiosity could be held back either by an AI similar to Nav or perhaps some other physical obstacle or perhaps both. Perhaps Fallout-esque Vaults, with all the updated technology in Wall-e? They actually make more sense than spaceships.

Given that even that sign on the moon is operational, presumably they have some sort of self-sustaining power plants that were never shut off, perhaps solar power like WALL-E.

Except solar panels degrade over time and use, just like anything else. Walle could repair himself, so its understandable as to why he is still running. But there is nothing to indicate that Walle has any inclination to repair the ads and we haven't seen solar panels anywhere.

Of course, the power source be be geothermic one built on a robust infrastructure.

They have been doing their job for some 700 years, it's actually quite good programming for sentient robots to be restrained that long.

Robots are expected to be replaced and they do go spare sooner or later.

What's worrying is that they do such behaviour on a whim. The secretary was waving goodbye just after being introduced to the idea. Mo left his post without regard, only to pursue his higher goals: removing foreign contamination. He does this without understanding the context he is in.

I believe that's said in the commentary, while WALL-E, EVE and others have the capacity to think beyond their programming, Auto's mind is so rigidly focused on his directives that he can't concieve of going against them.

It's also possible that by design, drift occurs differently to him than to the other robots. The robots are able to find alternative ways to archive their given goals or make subgoals. Walle was, after all, was collecting trash rather than blindly compressing it. He still follows his goals, but he has developed curiosity. Perhaps it evolved out of collecting spare parts for himself?

Meanwhile Auto (or Nav as I call him, I can't think why), because he was active for 700 years instead of just 5, he may have created a goal system that he cannot or does not want to override.

Badly-thought out engineering or perhaps just engineering outside of given parameters. The Axiom was meant to stay for 5 years, not 700. The AI also might be an older, more reliable version AI than the robots.

A similar principle is used by NASA after all: use older hardware, because you know all of its kinks and problems. Users can be trained to except these problems and solve them. If they forgot something or they encounter a problem they have not expected, on-staff technicians can be asked for help.
If you use new hardware and have a problem, then you have a problem that will have to run trough the entire agency, all the way to the manufacturers and developers.

It could be just capsules from the Axiom launched to have quicker access to survival resources inside or to use as makeshift homes.

I doubt it: under the context of the animation, it is implied that only the original Axiom crew is near the fireplace. The capsules are opening and people are coming to the fireplace, ergo, people from outside are coming to join the people inside.

[Zixinus]

Sorry for double posting but PeZook's message was after I've clicked the post button.

Actually, Auto may be perfectly able to "think beyond his programming". He presented an argument to the captain in support of his position, and it was a pretty good one: it's a minor miracle the bloated blobs of fat managed to survive at all in the charred wasteland that was Earth. The Axiom guaranteed survival ; Coming back to Earth carried a great risk of a mass die-off within a year.

Except that it has two mayor problems:

1. If the Axiom returns, what stops the replicative food generators or whatever? The Axiom was able to feed 10000 people for 700 years. Why would it be unable to continue to do so on Earth?
After all, I myself am guessing that is what happened: people got out slowly, still mostly living on the Axiom but learning and developing a workable agriculture step-by-step (the whole pizza tree thing is simply due to bad education: the captain had to spend some time just to get the idea).

2. He has limited data on the life on Earth. We have seen that it was not a single plant, but an entire field worth of them that grew on Earth. If anything else, it could be worthwhile to make a deeper probing effort to develop a better picture of the environmental changes on Earth.

Besides, he is supposed to be subordinate to humans. He should also be aware of genetic drift and that staying on the ship in stagnation would actually be a net harm to humans.

[PeZook]

1. If the Axiom returns, what stops the replicative food generators or whatever? The Axiom was able to feed 10000 people for 700 years. Why would it be unable to continue to do so on Earth?

The Axiom was designed to operate in space, and the replicators presumably require material input ; Depending on the vagaries and nature of the technology, the ship's onboard robots may be unable to collect the necessary resources to maintain the food supply when on planetary surface. Auto could also be concerned that the environment is simply too poisoned with toxic chemicals impossible to filter out from matter input, or just that humans would be too plain dumb not to make a catastrophic mistake.

Of course, he may just as well have become deranged, and so used to the status quo (or his total power...) that he will do anything to preserve it, and make up rationalizations as he goes along. Gods know humans do it all the time

My main point, though, is that he has more reasons to keep the mission going than just "BnL ordered me to", since he actually tried to justify his position, as if he gave it some actual thought.

2. He has limited data on the life on Earth. We have seen that it was not a single plant, but an entire field worth of them that grew on Earth. If anything else, it could be worthwhile to make a deeper probing effort to develop a better picture of the environmental changes on Earth.

I don't quite recall: did the "first officer" bot dump the plant out of his own accord, or on Auto's orders?

Besides, he is supposed to be subordinate to humans. He should also be aware of genetic drift and that staying on the ship in stagnation would actually be a net harm to humans.

I doubt children were born naturally, though. The humans were barely able to walk, much less make babies the old fashioned way. Genetic drift and inbreeding would be less of a problem if they could be fixed inside test tubes.

[Molyneux]

I don't quite recall: did the "first officer" bot dump the plant out of his own accord, or on Auto's orders?

By the by: the "first officer" bot is actually named "GO-4". I love the names they gave to all the 'bots...although I must say I didn't see the 'secretary' as at all female. It seemed more like an old, possibly wizened man to me.

[Darth Raptor]

Umm, congratulations, you've unearthed the secret message of the film.

I somehow doubt that "BNL has a magic forge that can make anything for negligible energy cost" is what we were supposed to take away from the film. I'd be surprised if the writers even thought of it; it just seems like a plausible inference from what we see.

[Zixinus]

About Auto: according to wiki, Auto was supposed to go into the ship's archives and reviews BnL's failed attempt at recolonizing Earth.

This supposedly would give him his motivation and would make much more sense. It gives him a reasonable motive: if BnL's superior set of resources, both technical and intellectual, was unable to solve the problem. Therefore, how could Axiom's inferior set of resources and stagnant maturity accomplish the same task?

Of course, he still ignores the problem of change and that under 700 years, the Earth's biosphere could have recovered enough to make recolonization viable.

This video shows you a section of what the initial conception wanted to be (and was thankfully changed, although it would still would have been an interesting film).

In here, it shows that the Captain actually panics and orders Auto to "make it better". Notice how he talks: it preserves the minimal dialogue of Wall-E and also shows English evolving under the circumstances.

I think what happened to Auto is what Starglider told about what could cause "insanity" within an AI: messing with the goal system. In this case, bulldozing in an absolute order into a delicate goal system that the AI cannot change. It shows A113 overriding "prime directive" which would also explain why Auto was willing to hurt humans to keep the status quo in the final film.

Auto could also be concerned that the environment is simply too poisoned with toxic chemicals impossible to filter out from matter input, or just that humans would be too plain dumb not to make a catastrophic mistake.

It's interesting to point out that the Captain directly challenges this:

Captain: But life is sustainable now. Look at this plant. Green and growing. It's living proof that he was wrong.
Auto: Irrelevant, Captain.
Captain: What? It"s completely relevant! Out there is our home. Home, Auto. And it's in trouble. I can't just sit here and do nothing. That's all I've ever done. That's all anyone on this blasted ship has ever done. Nothing!
Auto: On the Axiom you will survive.
Captain: I don't want to survive. I want to live!
Auto: Must follow my directive.

Let me try to write out a logic line here:

Probe comes back positive -> Return to earth? + A113 = No.

Earth is habitable -> Plant survived -> Possibility of recolonization -> Initiate Recolonization project? -> Recolonization project -> A113 = No, override A113? No.

OK, that sucked. A real programmer could probably draw a more believable logic. But the point is that A113 directly interferes with his ability of choice. For him, it is unimaginable to travel back to Earth. A113 dictates that he must continue the voyage.

He cannot consider the odds of recolonization. It is likely he does not have enough data or the capacity to consider the odds of recolonization and even if he did, he could not override A113. That is why he rejects the Captain's argument and why he supposedly had to consult the archives himself in the WIP script.

A113 is clearly the root cause of his problem, but he also seems that he is trying to reason way outside of his parameters. Yes, he gave it some thought but is incapable of properly doing so, partly because he is trying to operate outside of his engineered parameters (he was supposed to be the auto-pilot for god's sake, a secondary to the captain!) and because is restricted by A113.

Notice his last word on the debate: "must follow my directive". This is slightly grammatically incorrect and in the context, slightly irrelevant. He does not construct a rebuttal, he just gives the equivalent of an error message. He cannot continue the argument: to do that, he would have to consider abandoning the voyage sooner or later (to consider compromises, to make a point, to show his cost&benefit analysis, etc) the precise thing that A113 disables him. He cannot consider not following A113 that overrides all other directives.

If A113 would be removed, he would consider it rational to at least send another swarm of EVEs to solidify his position and safely convince the captain. However, he would have to consider that he is wrong and then he would have no choice but to initialize project recolonise. He can't do that: he has to keep the voyage. Therefore, this option is moot and Auto, adhering to A113, instead confines the Captain and commits mutiny because he cannot even consider convincing the Captain trough rational argument.

If I were a critic, I would say that this is a bit of a magnificent display of deeper meaning within the movie: we cannot rely on machines to take care of us and our future, because in the end, they're just made by humans and thus subject to human error. The captain, even unchallenged and living in a stagnation, could easily contest his reasoning. Auto cannot overcome his reasoning because of an illy-thought out order that seemed logical at the time. This is later reinforced later in the film. But I'm reading into things.

I don't quite recall: did the "first officer" bot dump the plant out of his own accord, or on Auto's orders?

I don't think he's a "first officer", just a low-grade security robot that is under orders from Auto. According to wiki, it was Auto that took the plant.

The humans were barely able to walk, much less make babies the old fashioned way.

*cough* mechanical help *cough*

Sorry for the mental image.

Genetic drift and inbreeding would be less of a problem if they could be fixed inside test tubes.

But cultural drift is: notice that originally, the seats were advertised for the elderly. By Walle's time, everyone is using it. The humans are clearly living in stagnation and has indirectly harmed them: they can barely walk and thus can barely ensure long-term survival. If the Axiom would become damaged in such a way that would require tasks that there are no specialized robots available for or unexpected, the Axiom is doomed as the humans would almost be unable to adapt or complete repairs in time. With every generation living in stagnation, Auto is putting the passengers at greater and greater long-term risk.

Originally, this is where the blobs of Gels would come in: spineless, legless and speaking broken English. The Captain, the leader of the ship, has just written his name as "x" and tried wearing his hat upside down. Intellectual stagnation, that was also shown in the final film: the Captain needed to look up what "sea" or "dancing" was, showing that he had absolutely no knowledge of history or human past. Also notice that the two human love-birds discover the pool for the first time. The woman expresses surprise that there is a pool: yet she must have passed it a thousand times.

We do not see any creative effort aboard the Axiom. We do not see graffiti, not even in crayons, we do not see people playing music, we do not see people trying to express individuality, we don't even see someone trying to mix up food shakes to see what happens! We do not see anyone doing anything that was not originally made by the Axiom's designers. Again, intellectual stagnation.

This is furthered by the scene with the babies and how it implies that BnL has crippled the education of the children. The Captain is barely able to read. The Recolonisation manual is the first book he ever held in his life (ironically, this is not the case for the Captain X in the WIP script).

Of course, there is the scene when the Captain tricks Auto into coming into his room and relaying a message to Eva and Walle. Before that, there is the event when the Captain is able to rewrite the Ship-wide com into his room, by ripping out a cable from under his desk. This shows some technical expertise still in place, at least for the Captain. This could be because BnL still wanted to ensure technically capable and competent people in charge. Or it could be that the system is so user-intuitive by design.

[Mayabird]

Besides, he is supposed to be subordinate to humans. He should also be aware of genetic drift and that staying on the ship in stagnation would actually be a net harm to humans.

I doubt children were born naturally, though. The humans were barely able to walk, much less make babies the old fashioned way. Genetic drift and inbreeding would be less of a problem if they could be fixed inside test tubes.

This isn't really on topic (though I'm not sure what the topic is exactly), but for some reason I got this vibe of "humans have been domesticated on the ship." There's no telling how long exactly the babies have been made by test tube apparently entirely under robotic supervision. I was thinking less cows and more silver foxes with genetic engineering though. Maybe it's with the recolonization ending and me wondering how that could possibly work with people who'd never even stood up on their own during their entire lives. The entire time they were being bred to be less aggressive and more socialized, or something.

[Zixinus]

Here's something that has been bothering me for quite some time: why the hell does Eve have a gun? Why was she given one? What was she expected to encounter that would require an armed response? She clearly cares about humans or at least unwilling to hurt them (see end of the movie, where she ignored Walle for the sake saving some fat humans). So what the hell was she expected to find that would require her to punch trough several layers of steel? Her only job is to find some plants, for god's sake!

The only time on Earth it appeared to be useful is when she was attached to the magnet. But in that case, a laser would have just as easily solved the problem.

[Starglider]

9. One of the thrusters of the eve-rocket appears to be have been damaged during the mission. It is not working.

It isn't damaged, it just isn't used in cruise mode. It shuts off when the engine pod retracts against the body. This makes no sense from a thrust-vector-vs-centre-of-gravity point of view, but that's hardly unusual in sci-fi.

11. Why is the secretary typing? She's a robot, she can write things far more effectively in a purely digital manner. My guess that its a psychological thing: people expect secretaries that use only two fingers to type.

There's a whole ton of stuff that's in the movie just because it was funny, and trying to rationalise it all will just produce a bizarre and inconsistent reality.

14. The BnL ceo talks about microgravity yet there appears to be some gravity in effect on the Axion. Why is this? Or just the writer confused about the terms?

Writers don't tend to think rigorously. Someone heard about how space flight causes muscle atrophy and thought 'hey, cool, let's reference that'. Practically there would have to be an unwanted biological side effect of being in an artificial gravity field, enough to make staying in shape really hard work, and cultural inertia would take it from there.

16. Bad (or perhaps too good?) programming is easily confirmed during a check to the repair bay. It's full of robots going against their programming.

Could be hardware faults coupled with lack of error checking and 'fail-safe' modes. Once B&L took over the world they probably discontinued product liability legislation.

But the point is that A113 directly interferes with his ability of choice. For him, it is unimaginable to travel back to Earth.

Undesirable does not imply unimaginable. I don't think Auto had any problem imagining the recolonisation scenario, it's just that it was defined as highly undesirable, so such speculation was only relevant to the extent that it could help him prevent such an event occurring.

Notice his last word on the debate: "must follow my directive". This is slightly grammatically incorrect and in the context, slightly irrelevant. He does not construct a rebuttal, he just gives the equivalent of an error message.

It's completely relevant and it's also an accurate rebuttal. It is the Captain's argument that is irrelevant (to AUTO), because the supergoal (A113) is not dependent on whether humans can or can't survive on earth; it's an absolute. 'On the Axiom, you will survive' may not be descriptive of Auto's reasoning at all; it may just be an attempt to placate the Captain, or a bit of 'metadata' attached to the main goal (descriptive but with no causal force).

If I were a critic, I would say that this is a bit of a magnificent display of deeper meaning within the movie: we cannot rely on machines to take care of us and our future, because in the end, they're just made by humans and thus subject to human error.

Bleh. The first half, maybe, I really doubt the writers were trying to put the second part in. Auto is a relatively minor character compared to EVE and WALL-E anyway. Of course this sentiment is incorrect anyway.

The AI also might be an older, more reliable version AI than the robots.

Frankly AUTO seems to have better abstract reasoning capabilities (e.g. full conversation ability) than the robots. I would not be surprised if they were running neural nets and he was running a multilayered logic based design, which is pretty much a necessity for high reliability. This is arguably much harder to make than an NN design capable of chip-level intelligence (which most of the bots seemed to have), so there's no reason to believe that it's older.

Except solar panels degrade over time and use, just like anything else.

Existing ones do but we may discover more robust, or self-regenerating solar cell nanostructures in the future. Still, I got the impression that EVE and most of the other really advanced technology was powered by some ZPM-style supertech power source.

How can you program something to ignore its programming?

That's pretty easy actually, you just get it to modify its own code in an unpredictable, unrestrained way. Of course most of the time this is a bad idea.

[lord Martiya]

Here's something that has been bothering me for quite some time: why the hell does Eve have a gun? Why was she given one? What was she expected to encounter that would require an armed response? She clearly cares about humans or at least unwilling to hurt them (see end of the movie, where she ignored Walle for the sake saving some fat humans). So what the hell was she expected to find that would require her to punch trough several layers of steel? Her only job is to find some plants, for god's sake!

Maybe the BnL expected the presence of some crazy military/law enforcement robot, that some Wall-E could try and compact the probes or some genetic experiment could endanger the probes. Those and some paranoid in BnL executive expecting an alien invasion are the only in-universe reasons I can come up with that may have a little sense. Not sure of how much...

[Gramzamber]

As EVE stands for Extra-terrestial Vegetation Evaluator she might have been designed to scout alien worlds and just in case she runs afoul of some alien life form or obstacle they arm her with a variable setting blaster.

Only thing I don't get is why she's so trigger happy - she's sent to find life and the moment she comes across movement she tries to nuke it.

[Zixinus]

This isn't really on topic (though I'm not sure what the topic is exactly), but for some reason I got this vibe of "humans have been domesticated on the ship."

I can see why. You would expect some token social upheaval to show up after 7 centuries but there appears to be no sign of this.

I think the idea was that humans have turned into babies: they will do as they are told, live happily as they can and let the robots run everything. The robots are higher authority than them and while they don't view them as gods, they just don't question them (notice that no one made note of the presence of Walle).

After all, why not? They're fed, they have housing, they have a good deal of freedom, they have a multitude of entertainments available to them.

How the economy works is left as a mystery. I would guess that it is probably the ultra-consumerist one that BnL itself created, but that would imply on-site creation of new products and their sale. The red woman (at the end of the film, I didn't catch her name) talks about shopping, so there is that to solidify that position.

But still, its a bit jarring that aside the "devolution" under the circumstances and the gallery in the Captain's office, there is no true sign that the ship is 700 years old. No rust, aside the dirt of the garbage airlock, no old robots trotting along, rigidly observing their learned tasks, no old sectors or even some messes that kept accumiliating. We see elderly people here and there, but that's it.

This makes no sense from a thrust-vector-vs-centre-of-gravity point of view, but that's hardly unusual in sci-fi.

Yes, I thought that might be the case too.

I have to wonder why they didn't just fire up the third thruster. Saving rendering time perhaps?

There's a whole ton of stuff that's in the movie just because it was funny, and trying to rationalise it all will just produce a bizarre and inconsistent reality.

Probably. I didn't find the secretary funny though and I just can't wrap my head around the idea of why (s)he is supposed to be funny.

Writers don't tend to think rigorously. Someone heard about how space flight causes muscle atrophy and thought 'hey, cool, let's reference that'. Practically there would have to be an unwanted biological side effect of being in an artificial gravity field, enough to make staying in shape really hard work, and cultural inertia would take it from there.

Yes, they referenced that (I think the director openly tells this). The Gels, the WIP script's end product of living on the Axiom for 7 centuries, was supposed to reflect that (although, unrealistically). Legless, no (or weak) spine, speaking semi-broken English, transparent green skin, etc. So that point was probably put into line from the start.

However, how they handle gravity is confusing and not-quite-consistent: the ship turns, as if it was on sea, when Auto turns himself. Hence the tilting. This makes absolutely no sense, but there you have it.

And I can't think of the Axiom having microgravity or even low gravity. The humans, fat as they are, were able to walk on Earth and later, recolonise it within a generations. If they would have lived in microgravity, their bones should have snapped.

Could be hardware faults coupled with lack of error checking and 'fail-safe' modes. Once B&L took over the world they probably discontinued product liability legislation.

Good point, although the robots mostly appeared to be technically functional and merely following bad programming. A possible metaphor with a visit to an asylum perhaps?

Undesirable does not imply unimaginable. I don't think Auto had any problem imagining the recolonisation scenario, it's just that it was defined as highly undesirable, so such speculation was only relevant to the extent that it could help him prevent such an event occurring.

Good point: I should had thought that Auto could imagine going back to Earth, he just didn't find it a viable option.

It's completely relevant and it's also an accurate rebuttal.

Objectively or strictly from Auto's standpoint?

Bleh. The first half, maybe, I really doubt the writers were trying to put the second part in.

Like I said, I'm probably reading into things.

I must say either way, that it is refreshing to see a non-Luddite film.

I would not be surprised if they were running neural nets and he was running a multilayered logic based design, which is pretty much a necessity for high reliability. This is arguably much harder to make than an NN design capable of chip-level intelligence (which most of the bots seemed to have), so there's no reason to believe that it's older.

Could be, especially considering that the Axiom was supposed to be top-of-the-line of its class. Come to think of it that way, it was silly to assume that Auto is old or at least an old design. He's just different.

Still, I got the impression that EVE and most of the other really advanced technology was powered by some ZPM-style supertech power source.

Considering that Eve and a realm of other robots aboard the Axiom fly with what appears to be anti-grav, I would say so.

Maybe the BnL expected the presence of some crazy military/law enforcement robot, that some Wall-E could try and compact the probes or some genetic experiment could endanger the probes. Those and some paranoid in BnL executive expecting an alien invasion are the only in-universe reasons I can come up with that may have a little sense. Not sure of how much...

As EVE stands for Extra-terrestial Vegetation Evaluator she might have been designed to scout alien worlds and just in case she runs afoul of some alien life form or obstacle they arm her with a variable setting blaster.

I think I have an idea that makes sense with those reasons: an EVE probe is incredibly expensive to make.

It is quite clear that Eva is highest possible point of technology that BnL could create. Her shell material suffers trough a good ordeal (including a side-blast from her own weapon!) with nothing more than getting a littly dirty. She has one of those fancy tractor-thingies inside of her (and consider that the probe's rocket needed to be hauled in rather than just tractored in!), she appearently requires no power source. Consider that she has enough energy to casually reach mach 1. She has a body that can reshape its solid connections on will (her "fingers", head and arms). She demonstrates a combinations of technologies that are not shown anywhere else.

Making all that and combining it into one small body as hers must not have been cheap.

So, therefore, BnL does not want to lose one like her. What is the best choice to ensure that her light frame is not trapped under any natural debris? Give her something that can destroy anything in its path. BnL probably developed the weapon for the military and decided to save some cost, thus just modified one to be part of the EVE probe's arm. Which might also explain the scope, something that Eva should not require.

[Starglider]

No rust, aside the dirt of the garbage airlock

It's probably built out of non-corroding materials (super-advanced alloys and composites). The external hull wouldn't oxidise anyway, all it has to worry about it micrometeorite errosion.

I have to wonder why they didn't just fire up the third thruster. Saving rendering time perhaps?

No, it was firing for the launch, they explicitly animated it turning off and retracting. You have to realise that artists do not think the way you seem to be. If you listen to the WALL-E commentary track, it's all 'and here's where we squeezed in a visual reference to sci-fi movie X'. To the point where they brag about one of the pieces of debris from the oil tanker explosions being the same shape as the most recognisable piece of debris from the crashed dropship in Aliens. The shuttle probably had two live off-centre thrusters because someone on the production team liked the look of Starbug from Red Dwarf.

Probably. I didn't find the secretary funny though and I just can't wrap my head around the idea of why (s)he is supposed to be funny.

Because the idea of a robot doing data entry is silly to start with, but the idea of a robot typing in binary is just ridiculous.

And I can't think of the Axiom having microgravity or even low gravity.

We know it has consistent 1g artificial gravity simply because the trajectories of dropped and thrown objects look exactly like they do on earth.

Could be hardware faults

Good point, although the robots mostly appeared to be technically functional and merely following bad programming. A possible metaphor with a visit to an asylum perhaps?

Oh the metaphor was obvious but from a suspension of disbelief point of view, they could be using hardware neural nets (on something like FPGAs) that suffer occasional progressive failure.

It's completely relevant and it's also an accurate rebuttal.

Objectively or strictly from Auto's standpoint?

All goals are inherently subjective. The Captain's desire to go back to earth was just as subjective as AUTO's desire to stay away, or for that matter EVE's desire to put the plant in the scanner. AUTO simply stated that he was not going to allow that activity. We think the Captain is right simply because the vast majority of humans are closer to his point of view than AUTO's.

I must say either way, that it is refreshing to see a non-Luddite film.

Yeah, the main problem was definitely the rampant consumerism, not the technology.

It is quite clear that Eva is highest possible point of technology that BnL could create.

They can also make pretty damn fast FTL drives; the Axiom got back to Earth in seconds. Unless it uses some super-exotic and expensive fuel that was exhausted after that one trip (unlikely, given that nothing else seems to need fuel), galactic colonisation should've been easy.

[Zixinus]

It's probably built out of non-corroding materials (super-advanced alloys and composites). The external hull wouldn't oxidise anyway, all it has to worry about it micrometeorite errosion.

My point was that we saw no rust of any kind, anywhere. Even if not metallic rust, but signs of use and decay in other materials: no patches of paint peeling, no removed hull plates, no old materials lying around waiting to be thrown out etc. Yes, robots should put away most of the signs, but there should be some parts that are just missed.

For example, micrometeorite erosion is found nowhere. The Axiom's surface is good as brand new, there is not even a layer of stardust.

I think this is mostly a choice purely for the sake of aesthetics. The creators wanted to show the shiny spaceships of their youth.

The shuttle probably had two live off-centre thrusters because someone on the production team liked the look of Starbug from Red Dwarf.

Ah, yes, I should have thought so.

Because the idea of a robot doing data entry is silly to start with, but the idea of a robot typing in binary is just ridiculous.

Oh.



Oh.

The Captain's desire to go back to earth was just as subjective as AUTO's desire to stay away, or for that matter EVE's desire to put the plant in the scanner. AUTO simply stated that he was not going to allow that activity. We think the Captain is right simply because the vast majority of humans are closer to his point of view than AUTO's.

Yes, but I meant purely from the standpoint of an argument. I understand that from his own perspective, Auto's course of action is logical.

The captain made his arguments for his position and Auto's only argument is "On the Axiom you will survive", while ignoring possible problems made by long-term survival aboard the Axiom.

Yes, I can see in retrospect what you mean that we think the Captain is right simply because he is human and that the Captain's point is irrelevant, from Auto's standpoint. His point that he cannot return to Earth and that is his orders, regardless how inhabitable Earth is now. The Captain unconsciously considers that the order is irrelevant and should be ignored: Auto cannot do the same and disregards the current habitability of Earth (as you say, its absolute).

[TimothyC]

For example, micrometeorite erosion is found nowhere. The Axiom's surface is good as brand new, there is not even a layer of stardust.

If you get a chance, watch the short "BURN-E" on the DVD, or here.

[Gramzamber]

Realistically speaking, Auto is correct about the habitability of Earth.
One plant does not equal habitability, and while the atmosphere is no longer toxic the ground remains largely covered in trash and contaminated, while huge dust storms constantly batter the old decayed cities.
Meanwhile the humans on the Axiom who can barely stand up and have brittle skeletons surrounded by a huge layer of fat would never survive in normal Earth gravity (I assume that the Axiom maintained gravity equivalent to, say, Mars).

Of course the fact remains that they did survive and thrive thanks to movie logic but accourding to our logic Auto was right