What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Patrick Degan »

Axis Kast wrote:
The point is not to convince the hard-core conservatives who will die before changing a single idea but to snag the fence-sitters and middle-of-the-roaders who have yet to be convinced of anything.
A crass caricature that anyway does you little good, considering that the number of Independents ready to sway one way or the other is at an all-time low.


It's a "crass caricature" only if it's demonstrably untrue as a descriptor of conservative attitudes and mindsets. Clearly, however, it is not as conservatives have demonstrably become more, not less, doctrinaire in just ten years time.
Republicans also talk about unlucky people who weren't rich enough to buy decent insurance or couldn't make the mortgage as those who "made bad decisions" or "didn't work hard enough" and therefore aren't worthy of help "I should have to pay for". We've seen that in spades with the mortgage assistance debate as well as the healthcare debate. They literally have developed selfishness into a multilayered philosophy centred around justification of every and any argument to abandon millions to their fates.
This is your analysis -- that there is no excuse for supporting the idea that one should keep all or the vast majority of what one has earned if others need assistance, and that therefore any attempt at justification reflects a consuming selfishness. This conveniently ignores behavior such as private charity or tithing, as well as the fact that most conservatives truly believe, even if incorrectly, that government-run programs are inefficient wastes of money that never deliver the amount of social goods promised, and are unlikely to help people achieve lifestyle reform, the presumptive requirement for lasting change.
That's because there is no excuse, really. Since everybody benefits from the products of organised civilisation, it actually is on the strong to help out the weak, if for no other reason than to obviate against a too-sharp divide between rich and poor which will tend to undermine the society they themselves live in and benefit from. Everything else is just handwaving to justify a refusal to recognise any responsibility to help those deemed "unworthy". That these people give to private charity and tithe to their churches is not much of a counter, since they take upon themselves to decide those deemed "worthy" of receiving charity and are still rock-solid in opposition to the use of government to alleviate social disadvantage —especially if the "unworthy" may benefit.
We're not talking about your subjective feelings. Kindly leave such irrelevancies out of this discussion.
Only if you will kindly do the same.
And when I actually do inject subjective feelings into this discussion, I'll consider your advice. Until then, take the smarmy attitude and cram it.
The moment an argument is made in which people are separated out into categories of "worthy" and "unworthy" for aid based on a wholly subjective standard of worth, that is the Calvinist mechanism in operation right there. Kristol simply switches military service as the standard rather than wealth as his test for purposes of this discussion with Stewart, but he is still drawing a line between the preferred few and the unworthy many. That's exactly how John Calvin divided the world in his mind and that is the same basic ideology informing conservative thought on social questions.
You have done no such thing as prove that all discussions of worth reflect Calvinist doctrine. Bill Kristol is, in fact, a Jew.
Because you say so? No, doens't work that way, Axi: arguments aren't rebutted simply by your personal refusal to acknowledge them. Kristol being Jewish does not erase the fact that he is definitely employing a Calvinistic division of people into "worthy" and "unworthy".
Kristol is obviously working to avoid having to endorse the idea that anybody has a "right" to health care, or that it can be administered effectively to large populations by a government agency. Rather than admit his bias directly, he tells us that soldiers have special value -- and therefore may receive this government healthcare, which, his explanation implies, is more expensive than the norm.
Which he does by dividing the people into "worthy" and "unworthy" of receiving public healthcare. If healthcare is recognised as a universal right, that sort of division becomes impossible to sustain, as do arguments against providing public healthcare.
Next time, try a rebuttal of substance. You do not refute any of the factual bases for the article with that little exercise in handwaving or your shabby Appeal to Motive. Nor do you refute anything with the Red Herring of Christians who give to charity —especially as the article also concedes the fact of Christians who do not subscribe to Calvinist ideology and more likely to identify as liberal or moderate.
Next time, don't accuse a Jew of being a Calvinist.
That's weak even for you.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Terralthra »

Calvinism is about more than dividing people into "worthy" and "unworthy" groups. Its essential point is that no one can do anything to move from one group into the other. Those who are saved by God are done so by his sovereign choice alone, and those not are similarly destined to be such. If you are unworthy, you can never become worthy.

Bill Kristol's quote above alone would indicate he does not, in fact, ascribe to this Calvinist view, because there is an easy way for the "unworthy" to become "worthy": join the military.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Patrick Degan »

Terralthra wrote:Calvinism is about more than dividing people into "worthy" and "unworthy" groups. Its essential point is that no one can do anything to move from one group into the other. Those who are saved by God are done so by his sovereign choice alone, and those not are similarly destined to be such. If you are unworthy, you can never become worthy.

Bill Kristol's quote above alone would indicate he does not, in fact, ascribe to this Calvinist view, because there is an easy way for the "unworthy" to become "worthy": join the military.
In academic terms that may be strictly true but in real terms there are plenty of people in this country who cannot qualify for military service or for combat service. Of if gay and found out are subject to immediate dismissal from service. Which means it still comes down to people being permanently shut-out of a public service on the grounds of not meeting that worthiness test. Furthermore, even Calvinist doctrine has not strictly remained fixed on its initial precepts with respect to limited v. unlimited atonement.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Axis Kast »

Why can't a Jew subscribe to Calvinist thinking? It doesn't mean he has to actually be a Calvinist; it only means he has to subscribe to the notion that the status quo is as God intended it, and therefore has a certain intrinsic value. A lot of Jews also subscribe to racial separation thinking, even though they suffered horribly from that mindset. Irony aside, the fact remains that it happens.
Deegan is asserting that all discussion of a man's worth is inherently an indication that one is a Calvinist. That supposition has no basis in fact. He has not offered any proof to support his position. I might perhaps be more inclined to believe him, however, if Kristol were a practicing Protestant.
Almost as irritating is the person who states the idea, grudgingly admits that you make some good points against it, and then leaves on what appears to be a conciliatory note. But the very next day, if the subject comes up, he states the idea as a fact again, as if the previous day's conversation never happened. This I find very common. Sometimes I even raise the exact same points I used before, and he nods sagely as if he's hearing and pondering them for the first time. You ask why I'm so quick to assume dishonesty; do you not see how this kind of behaviour could lead someone to that conclusion?
I find that one can gradually chip away at somebody else's political presuppositions.
You complained that the attacks only offer more principles. What else do you attack principles with except other principles?
With, "That doesn't add up with the facts."
That was the impression I got from the missile defense thread. Can you state why you are a Republican than?
Because I believe that Republicans generally have the superior foreign policy, which I believe is the thing a president chiefly affects. This does not mean that I would never vote for a Democrat.
While showing that American conservativism is not based exclusively on calvinism, it doesn't rebut the idea that it is based on dividing the world up into worthy and unworthy.
That isn't the debate. Again: when I read the transcript, Kristol merely comes across as somebody retreating from a bind.
Outside the Catholic church, I can't think of one that has enough resources to distribute charity to all needy people so they choose who they give to. Limited resources forcing choice.
So does the government. You are implying, however, that there is something perfidious about the choice -- that it is only given to persons who agree with Republican or conservative principles, for instance, which is absolutely not the case.
Is there a significant difference between the rates of charity versus political ideology?
I couldn't tell you.
Because... what exactly? Is there any real difference between governments and charities except scale and one has a guarenteed income? Aside from the fact the government doesn't need to advertise to get funding of course.
Conservatives tend to associate all government programs with inefficiency arising from administrative plodding and the influence of particularistic political agendas. There are exactly the questions you should be asking of conservatives yourself.
Yeah, living is not a right citizens should enjoy. As for the government always not working effectively... well, it would be a stupid principle if it wasn't stupid. I mean it isn't like the government is able to coordinate other large programs... or there are entire sections of the economy that government is always better at. Which is actually covered in basic economics-do they not teach that part in high school?
Nobody said that living wasn't a right; they question whether medical intervention is a right. You believe strongly that it is. I suggest that, regardless of your belief about who should believe what, you avoid slinging names or insults; it only reinforces conservatives in the belief that you and Obama want to impose upon them without listening to, or understanding them. If somebody is afraid of the dark, don't you think you should assure them, as best you can, that there won't be a boogieman under the bed when the lights are turned off?
Since your current location is South Africa that must have been... interesting.
I'm American. I live in the D.C. metro area. The South African location is a reference to my fields of study in college and graduate school.
Obviously the only way to resolve this is through emperical testing. Anyone think we can get a random conservative off the street and rebuild him? We will make him stronger, faster, better. Or more reasonable- our budget is pretty limited.
More reasonable than ignoring people, or insulting them, and expecting to get things accomplished.
It's a "crass caricature" only if it's demonstrably untrue as a descriptor of conservative attitudes and mindsets. Clearly, however, it is not as conservatives have demonstrably become more, not less, doctrinaire in just ten years time.
If conservatives cannot change "a single idea," then how did they become more or less anything "in just ten years' time?"
That's because there is no excuse, really. Since everybody benefits from the products of organised civilisation, it actually is on the strong to help out the weak, if for no other reason than to obviate against a too-sharp divide between rich and poor which will tend to undermine the society they themselves live in and benefit from. Everything else is just handwaving to justify a refusal to recognise any responsibility to help those deemed "unworthy". That these people give to private charity and tithe to their churches is not much of a counter, since they take upon themselves to decide those deemed "worthy" of receiving charity and are still rock-solid in opposition to the use of government to alleviate social disadvantage —especially if the "unworthy" may benefit.
So, that's it. There's no excuse because you're fit to judge others' morality. Of course, this presupposes that you know for a fact that, deep down, they are all as sure of you as the link between their tax money and improved social welfare. I've spent time listening to conservatives. A lot of them doubt that we're all better off when taxes rise.

You take a confident stand on complex moral issues. That's fine. However, you also insist that everybody else drink the same medicine; tow the same line. Seems to me you've also got to be the one to say when enough's enough. I don't remember anybody electing you to that position.

What's worse is that most conservatives give to charity, which they expect to be a more effective source of aid to the needy than government programs. You don't disabuse them of any misconceptions; you just pass judgment and have on with your day.

Who's choosing who's "worthy" to obtain relief? I can name a whole range of churches that do work in all sorts of communities.
And when I actually do inject subjective feelings into this discussion, I'll consider your advice. Until then, take the smarmy attitude and cram it.
This is all about your subject feelings. Of what lies in conservative hearts. Of what otherwise innocuous words must really mine. Of what goes on in the Republican Party, to which you don't belong.
Because you say so? No, doens't work that way, Axi: arguments aren't rebutted simply by your personal refusal to acknowledge them. Kristol being Jewish does not erase the fact that he is definitely employing a Calvinistic division of people into "worthy" and "unworthy".
Because you haven't delivered anything except an assertion, using the proposition that all discussions of worth are necessarily a reflection of Calvinist values.
Which he does by dividing the people into "worthy" and "unworthy" of receiving public healthcare. If healthcare is recognised as a universal right, that sort of division becomes impossible to sustain, as do arguments against providing public healthcare.
Yes. So?
In academic terms that may be strictly true but in real terms there are plenty of people in this country who cannot qualify for military service or for combat service. Of if gay and found out are subject to immediate dismissal from service. Which means it still comes down to people being permanently shut-out of a public service on the grounds of not meeting that worthiness test. Furthermore, even Calvinist doctrine has not strictly remained fixed on its initial precepts with respect to limited v. unlimited atonement.
Please explain how these people must necessarily have developed their positions from Calvinism. Why couldn't Kristol have been engaging in hero-worship and relying on patriotism to see him through? That's at least as convincing.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Samuel »

With, "That doesn't add up with the facts."
Are we talking about people who are totally insulated from the outside world? Because I'm pretty sure that the war on drugs has produced a large prison population is well known.
So does the government.
The US is wealthy enough that this is not a significant problem.
You are implying, however, that there is something perfidious about the choice -- that it is only given to persons who agree with Republican or conservative principles, for instance, which is absolutely not the case.
... I wasn't refering to motive, but limited resources and focus, a problem for all charities.
Nobody said that living wasn't a right; they question whether medical intervention is a right.
There is a correlation greater than zero between the two. The fact that they don't realize that makes them either stupid or callous.
If somebody is afraid of the dark, don't you think you should assure them, as best you can, that there won't be a boogieman under the bed when the lights are turned off?
Actually the easiest way to fix this would be to jack the bed up or store stuff under it so there is not open space to fear.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

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Darth Wong wrote:In other words, "I'll be OK, and fuck those other people even though a lot of them are elderly and have no way of recovering".
Being old does not excuse one of being stupid or delusional. If you can't read a fucking 10-Q, you shouldn't be investing! Buy t-bills or dividend-paying stocks if you need a modest income and capital preservation.
Darth Wong wrote:In other words, "I'll be OK, and fuck those other people even though a lot of them are elderly and have no way of recovering".
Your record is worn and the needle is skipping. Old people who "invested" based on stock touts, Jim Cramer, or any other source aside from their own analysis of that stock or pension fund will still get Social Security payments and are in no danger of starving. You CAN cash out of a union or corporate pension fund in the US, but again the onus is on you to perform a cost/benefit analysis before doing so. Retirees riding the "hope" roller-coaster with their hands over their eyes so they don't see what frightens them does NOT obligate the rest of us to make good their losses if their pension funds fail.
Darth Wong wrote:In other words, you know you can't actually argue the point, but you're nevertheless sure it's nothing but a big scam. Yup, so far you're living up to the conservative stereotype quite beautifully.

and

In other words, the US shouldn't bother to do anything unless all of the other countries do it first. Why be a leader when you can be selfish instead? Once again, living up to the conservative stereotype.
What I said was that I'm not debate-worthy; mainly because the arguments on both sides are numerous and I haven't devoted the time to look at more than a fraction of them. Hence my deliberate emphasis on the economic impact of proposed cap and trade legislation, and the American costs and benefits to be derived therefrom. The numbers seem to show that cap and trade legislation on the part of the US will have a negligible impact on atmospheric CO2, while at the same time imposing a cost through taxation and regulation of $100 billion+ per year.

And, by the way, the US does NOT lead the world in per capita carbon emissions. Here's a Wiki article that summarizes IEA findings of per capita carbon dioxide emissions. We're #9, behind Quatar, the UAE, Kuwait, Bahrain, Aruba, Luxembourg, Netherlands Antilles, and Trinidad & Tobago. Canada and Australia are directly behind us in ranking. Hey, let's play a game! How about we compare the US to the EU and China? The US, with 307 million people, emits 5.8 billion metric tons of CO2; using the same chart, the EU, with about 460 million people, emits a total of 4 billion metric tons. Yay French nuclear power plants and former USSR states clawing themselves into the 21st century! China, with 1.3 billion people, emits 5.98 billion metric tons of CO2, more than the US. And China's trend, as you would expect of a developing country, has gone up 150% since 1990. A look at the numbers in the link above also shows that China's emissions are trending up towards asymptotic, where America's CO2 emissions are where they were in 1990. Which country is more likely to increase CO2, China or America? The numbers favor China. Why should we be a GDP-reducing example, when we're not the exemplars of per capita OR total pollution? Where's the pressure on China? By the way, the states with the lowest CO2 emissions are dirt-poor African republics, and Afghanistan. CO2 emissions roughly equate to power and industry, wealth, and standards of living.

Your replies are simple appeals to emotion, and aren't backed up by, umm, really anything at all.

I know I'm replying a bit out of order (addressing your reply to my reply, instead of your original reply which I partially addressed); I will respond on the morrow to your initial riposte.

EDIT wow that last sentence sounds really Olde English stilted, so what the heck: "En garde, you Canadian ruffian! The first to draw blood wins the damsel!" :wink:
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Axis Kast »

Are we talking about people who are totally insulated from the outside world? Because I'm pretty sure that the war on drugs has produced a large prison population is well known.
We are talking about people who don't have access to the same facts you do; don't know the issues as well as you do, despite superficial exposure sufficient to prompt them to form an opinion based on a series of assumptions; or individuals who don't trust that all of the documents they've seen accurately reflect the truth of the matter.
The US is wealthy enough that this is not a significant problem.
We wouldn't be having a debate over health care if that were true. Nor how to best administer the welfare program. Government resources are finite, and I think Republicans keep in mind better than Democrats the fact that spending on one item inherently reduces what is left for spending on others.

Republicans are also correct to emphasize individual initiative and personal responsibility. While the latter often spins off into morality tales, the idea of learning to fend for oneself without depending upon society, or misplacing one's faith in the powers-that-be, is extraordinarily important. Part of the Republican message is: "Don't expect somebody else to provide a solution. It's not always going to be available." Self-reliance. Democrats are quick to insist that we need social safety nets. That's fine. However, the automatic assumption that Republicans are heartless, or else unreasonably selfish, is unfair.
There is a correlation greater than zero between the two. The fact that they don't realize that makes them either stupid or callous.
Who draws the line? How much of your health care am I responsible for? What are the reasons you couldn't find or keep affordable insurance? What's wrong with wanting to keep the fruits of my labor? What if I don't expect anything from you? Why is it so morally reprehensible to discuss these issues? Why can't you refrain from judgments of character?
Actually the easiest way to fix this would be to jack the bed up or store stuff under it so there is not open space to fear.
You know exactly what I mean.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Darth Wong »

Count Chocula wrote:Being old does not excuse one of being stupid or delusional. If you can't read a fucking 10-Q, you shouldn't be investing! Buy t-bills or dividend-paying stocks if you need a modest income and capital preservation.
It's irrelevant whether being old is an excuse. Social ethics involve balancing interests, benefits, costs, misery, etc. For you and me, an increase in taxes means that we put off some discretionary purchases. For an old person, the destruction of his savings means that he's fucked.
Your record is worn and the needle is skipping. Old people who "invested" based on stock touts, Jim Cramer, or any other source aside from their own analysis of that stock or pension fund will still get Social Security payments and are in no danger of starving. You CAN cash out of a union or corporate pension fund in the US, but again the onus is on you to perform a cost/benefit analysis before doing so. Retirees riding the "hope" roller-coaster with their hands over their eyes so they don't see what frightens them does NOT obligate the rest of us to make good their losses if their pension funds fail.
See above. The fact that they won't actually starve to death doesn't mean we can just ignore them. This is precisely the attitude that conservatives are pilloried for: they look for excuses to declare that others had it coming, and deserve no sympathy.
What I said was that I'm not debate-worthy; mainly because the arguments on both sides are numerous and I haven't devoted the time to look at more than a fraction of them.
And of course, you would never simply accept that every major scientific organization in the world is actually qualified to judge these matters. Not when "think tanks" and politicians say otherwise, right?
Hence my deliberate emphasis on the economic impact of proposed cap and trade legislation, and the American costs and benefits to be derived therefrom. The numbers seem to show that cap and trade legislation on the part of the US will have a negligible impact on atmospheric CO2, while at the same time imposing a cost through taxation and regulation of $100 billion+ per year.
You've already been caught using fraudulent figures once in this thread. Is the cost zero? No, but the fact that Republicans insist on grossly exaggerating it means that the truth isn't scary enough.
And, by the way, the US does NOT lead the world in per capita carbon emissions. Here's a Wiki article that summarizes IEA findings of per capita carbon dioxide emissions. We're #9, behind Quatar, the UAE, Kuwait, Bahrain, Aruba, Luxembourg, Netherlands Antilles, and Trinidad & Tobago. Canada and Australia are directly behind us in ranking. Hey, let's play a game! How about we compare the US to the EU and China? The US, with 307 million people, emits 5.8 billion metric tons of CO2; using the same chart, the EU, with about 460 million people, emits a total of 4 billion metric tons. Yay French nuclear power plants and former USSR states clawing themselves into the 21st century! China, with 1.3 billion people, emits 5.98 billion metric tons of CO2, more than the US. And China's trend, as you would expect of a developing country, has gone up 150% since 1990. A look at the numbers in the link above also shows that China's emissions are trending up towards asymptotic, where America's CO2 emissions are where they were in 1990. Which country is more likely to increase CO2, China or America? The numbers favor China. Why should we be a GDP-reducing example, when we're not the exemplars of per capita OR total pollution?
How the fuck can China's emissions be trending toward asymptotic? Do you even know what "asymptotic" means? In any case, you appear to be arguing that the US should do nothing because it is not the worst country in the world (never mind the fact that many of the CO2 emissions of the oil-producing countries you mentioned are due to their oil production, which you use a lot of). That's an interesting way to respond to the accusation that you are abdicating any position of leadership.
Where's the pressure on China? By the way, the states with the lowest CO2 emissions are dirt-poor African republics, and Afghanistan. CO2 emissions roughly equate to power and industry, wealth, and standards of living.

Your replies are simple appeals to emotion, and aren't backed up by, umm, really anything at all.
You have a lot of gall to say that when you ignored half of my first rebuttal to your big post, asshole.

Also, you have provided absolutely nothing to refute in this most recent post. Your arguments on ignoring the problems of people who aren't investment-savvy are based on the assumption that people who aren't investment-savvy are morally deserving of suffering. Your arguments on global warming are based on bogus figures and the notion that the US is free and clear as long as it's not the worst country in the world. What the fuck kind of justification do you think I need in order to simply point out what you're doing?
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Edi »

Axis Kast wrote:
Edi wrote: Kast, the problem with your assertions about what conservatives supposedly mean simply does not pan out in the real world. There is a massive disconnect between that claim and the actual experience of talking to conservatives (this forum is not the only place where I engage in debates and discussions) and no matter the venue, it always boils down to the same things.
With whom do you engage in these debates? I've moved progressively south since first arriving on this board in high school. I have met plenty of people who tell me that faith is the guiding force in their lives. I have met folks who insist that Obama is a dictator-in-waiting. I have met people who spin all the tall tales discussed here on these forums. Where are these people who don't listen?
You can find those who don't listen practically anywhere. I did not say that everyone was like that, but a lot of people are. One of the places I frequent is Heaven Games, for example. The main moderator of their debate/serious discussion subforum is a conservative I've had constructive discussions with on many occasions. It's been back and forth since we both are capable of questioning our views and acknowledging errors, while some other members refuse to even consider anything that does not fit with their preconceived conclusions.

Axis Kast wrote:Maybe, unlike you, I don't regard complete conversion as a criteria for considering the discussion successful.
You're presuming such a conversion to be a requirement for me. You happen to be wrong. Getting acknowledgment of what I say and reasoned discussion is enough for me, full agreement is not necessary. What I find intolerable is dismissal of my arguments via talking point or discarding out of hand without addressing it.

Axis Kast wrote:What I want to do is prod these people to recognize chinks in their own arguments, not bring them around to my position or die trying. Refuting their examples, or questioning how they have logically come to a given point of view is often enough.
With the ones capable of reasonable discourse, yes.
Axis Kast wrote:Even when they dance up and down and claim I am not being "fair," I get through to them. I make them uncomfortable. It's a start.
Yes, getting their arguments demolished tends to make people uncomfortable, but it is no guarantee that they won't simply repeat the same things the next day as if the previous conversation never happened. It depends on the person. Some who become uncomfortable will actually begin to question their views, some will just stick their fingers in their ears. The former you can have a constructive discussion with, the latter you can't.
Axis Kast wrote:
Edi wrote:So yes, it's fine to take the approach of reasoned discourse for a few posts and when it (almost inevitably) becomes clear that there is a doctrinaire refusal to actually discuss anything, it's time to switch to ridicule and contempt because you might as well just entertain the audience and induce heightened blood pressure in the opponent for wasting your time.
That just makes the problem worse, since these people who have not been made to question themselves are now grappling with the fact that you've given up talking, not them. That makes you seem unreasonable.
You assume that the people in question are actually questioning their own views instead of just sticking their fingers in their ears. I take this approach with the contingent that sticks fingers in their ears, because showing them up for fools will be beneficial for the observers.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Patrick Degan »

Axis Kast wrote:
It's a "crass caricature" only if it's demonstrably untrue as a descriptor of conservative attitudes and mindsets. Clearly, however, it is not as conservatives have demonstrably become more, not less, doctrinaire in just ten years time.
If conservatives cannot change "a single idea," then how did they become more or less anything "in just ten years' time?"
Quite easily —by never changing a single idea to start with and holding to fixed notions despite the movement of the rest of the world, and then reacting with increasing intolerance toward a world which no longer considers their ideas workable, relevant, or even remotely logical.
That's because there is no excuse, really. Since everybody benefits from the products of organised civilisation, it actually is on the strong to help out the weak, if for no other reason than to obviate against a too-sharp divide between rich and poor which will tend to undermine the society they themselves live in and benefit from. Everything else is just handwaving to justify a refusal to recognise any responsibility to help those deemed "unworthy". That these people give to private charity and tithe to their churches is not much of a counter, since they take upon themselves to decide those deemed "worthy" of receiving charity and are still rock-solid in opposition to the use of government to alleviate social disadvantage —especially if the "unworthy" may benefit.
So, that's it. There's no excuse because you're fit to judge others' morality.
Strawman.
Of course, this presupposes that you know for a fact that, deep down, they are all as sure of you as the link between their tax money and improved social welfare. I've spent time listening to conservatives. A lot of them doubt that we're all better off when taxes rise.
Of course they doubt it —because they don't want to contribute a goddamned thing and see their wealth and achievements entirely as if they came from a vacuum, with zero connection to a wider world which made the conditions which made their wealth and achievements possible in the first place. That's at the root of every "It's MY money" argument.
You take a confident stand on complex moral issues. That's fine. However, you also insist that everybody else drink the same medicine; tow the same line. Seems to me you've also got to be the one to say when enough's enough. I don't remember anybody electing you to that position.
Another strawman. It is not unreasonable to posit the observation that those who benefit from society should take a hand in its maintenance —if for no other reason than ensuring that the society they benefit from remains viable so they can continue benefiting from it.
What's worse is that most conservatives give to charity, which they expect to be a more effective source of aid to the needy than government programs. You don't disabuse them of any misconceptions; you just pass judgment and have on with your day.
It is readily observable that charity donation is nowhere near sufficient to see to the needs of the poorer segments of a large and complex society but conservatives continue to insist that somehow, someway, charity will actually meet those needs in sufficient quantity. Problem is, they never actually bother to explain how this is to be workable to the extent they insist it will but is just presented as an a priori assertion. When confronted with facts that charity won't actually fill the gaps in the provision of social services, however, they simply repeat the same arguments: government is inefficient, charity is sufficient.
Who's choosing who's "worthy" to obtain relief? I can name a whole range of churches that do work in all sorts of communities.
And that's nice as far as it goes. Unfortunately, it doesn't go anywhere near as far as it needs to —a fact conservatives are loathe to admit, much less concede.
And when I actually do inject subjective feelings into this discussion, I'll consider your advice. Until then, take the smarmy attitude and cram it.
This is all about your subject feelings.
In a word, bullshit. And actually quite comical coming from somebody who keeps presenting his personal anecdotes and incredulity as "evidence" of anything.
Of what lies in conservative hearts. Of what otherwise innocuous words must really mine. Of what goes on in the Republican Party, to which you don't belong.
To borrow a phrase from the Bible: "By their works Ye shall Know them" (Luke 13:26).
Because you say so? No, doens't work that way, Axi: arguments aren't rebutted simply by your personal refusal to acknowledge them. Kristol being Jewish does not erase the fact that he is definitely employing a Calvinistic division of people into "worthy" and "unworthy".
Because you haven't delivered anything except an assertion, using the proposition that all discussions of worth are necessarily a reflection of Calvinist values.
No, you simply chose to dismiss a historical article which backed the observation as "opinion" and continue your patented handwaving. Seems you're falling back to your usual bad habits.
Which he does by dividing the people into "worthy" and "unworthy" of receiving public healthcare. If healthcare is recognised as a universal right, that sort of division becomes impossible to sustain, as do arguments against providing public healthcare.
Yes. So?
I'm sorry, is this you pretending you've actually made a legitimate argument about anything?
In academic terms that may be strictly true but in real terms there are plenty of people in this country who cannot qualify for military service or for combat service. Of if gay and found out are subject to immediate dismissal from service. Which means it still comes down to people being permanently shut-out of a public service on the grounds of not meeting that worthiness test. Furthermore, even Calvinist doctrine has not strictly remained fixed on its initial precepts with respect to limited v. unlimited atonement.
Please explain how these people must necessarily have developed their positions from Calvinism. Why couldn't Kristol have been engaging in hero-worship and relying on patriotism to see him through? That's at least as convincing.
No, not really. Hero-worship doesn't sustain by any necessity an argument that only some are worthy of public healthcare while the rest of the populace can just rot if they can't pay.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Patrick Degan »

And as for this:
Axis Kast wrote:
Why can't a Jew subscribe to Calvinist thinking? It doesn't mean he has to actually be a Calvinist; it only means he has to subscribe to the notion that the status quo is as God intended it, and therefore has a certain intrinsic value. A lot of Jews also subscribe to racial separation thinking, even though they suffered horribly from that mindset. Irony aside, the fact remains that it happens.
Deegan is asserting that all discussion of a man's worth is inherently an indication that one is a Calvinist. That supposition has no basis in fact. He has not offered any proof to support his position. I might perhaps be more inclined to believe him, however, if Kristol were a practicing Protestant.
That "supposition" was supported by the article you just decided to handwave away. Furthermore, you and only you are putting forth the idea that Calvinist influences which underpin conservative ideas can only be advocated by practising religious Calvinists.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Axis Kast »

Quite easily —by never changing a single idea to start with and holding to fixed notions despite the movement of the rest of the world, and then reacting with increasing intolerance toward a world which no longer considers their ideas workable, relevant, or even remotely logical.
You stated that conservatives had become more or less of something, not that society's relative movement had made them appear more or less something.

More than that, conservatives have clearly proven changeable: before 9/11, many proudly identified as isolationists; after Bush teed up their support for the invasion of Iraq, many could only be described as military interventionists.
Strawman.
Judgment is clearly a component of what you do. Running throughout your replies in this thread is a confident, nearly blind presumption that there can be only evil in a man's heart when he says, "A man should mostly take care of himself," and, "I oughtn't have to pay so many taxes."
Of course they doubt it —because they don't want to contribute a goddamned thing and see their wealth and achievements entirely as if they came from a vacuum, with zero connection to a wider world which made the conditions which made their wealth and achievements possible in the first place. That's at the root of every "It's MY money" argument.
You've never satisfactorily proven to anyone that conservatives got their wealth from, or were able to get anywhere on account of, this hazy "other" called "a wider world." You've never provided any kind of mechanism to be able to quantify, or even qualify, this supposed contribution and corresponding debt. Whenever anybody asks you for substation, you merely assert your belief in a "Social Contract," as if it is self-evident truth.
Another strawman. It is not unreasonable to posit the observation that those who benefit from society should take a hand in its maintenance —if for no other reason than ensuring that the society they benefit from remains viable so they can continue benefiting from it.
You've now staked out an even more ambitious position: without some undefined extent of open-handedness, society will no longer be "viable." What does that mean, spelled out in more than a sentence? How did you arrive at this conclusion, and how can I be assured that this is not riding the philosophical slippery slope too far?

Your philosophy on what is "necessary" or "reasonable" seems to have a lot in common with your personal opinions about what is most important or most desirable in organized society. In other words, "Do this, because I said so." You sound an awful lot like the doctrinare conservatives insisting, "Because God said so! Because it's in the Bible!" That's when I ask them to prove to me that the Bible is assuredly the Word of God.
It is readily observable that charity donation is nowhere near sufficient to see to the needs of the poorer segments of a large and complex society but conservatives continue to insist that somehow, someway, charity will actually meet those needs in sufficient quantity. Problem is, they never actually bother to explain how this is to be workable to the extent they insist it will but is just presented as an a priori assertion. When confronted with facts that charity won't actually fill the gaps in the provision of social services, however, they simply repeat the same arguments: government is inefficient, charity is sufficient.
The conservative willingness to make donation to charity in the first place clashes with your earlier perception that they are inherently selfish and tight-fisted.

When confronted with the statement, "Government is inefficient," do you simply reply, "No, it isn't!" and then pull your hair out when disagreement persists? You treat the potential debate as if there must be equivalency. My point is that conservatives will often be unable to sustain their positions; if you want to challenge them, the investment of effort on behalf of evidence will often need to be primarily your own.
And that's nice as far as it goes. Unfortunately, it doesn't go anywhere near as far as it needs to —a fact conservatives are loathe to admit, much less concede.
You said that it was selective, not that it was merely insufficient.
In a word, bullshit. And actually quite comical coming from somebody who keeps presenting his personal anecdotes and incredulity as "evidence" of anything.
See above.
To borrow a phrase from the Bible: "By their works Ye shall Know them" (Luke 13:26).
I guess that musn't apply to me; only Democrats.
No, you simply chose to dismiss a historical article which backed the observation as "opinion" and continue your patented handwaving. Seems you're falling back to your usual bad habits.
No, I simply question (1) how the article speaks to Bill Kristol's personal beliefs, abstracted from a sentence or two; (2) how somebody could possibly be making an argument from theological Calvinism if not a Calvinist. Are conservatives all "secret Calvinists" or something? Unless they are Dutch Reformed, they probably aren't hearing very much about the "elect" and the "unworthy." How, then, can they be secret Calvinists, as you claim?
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Samuel »

We are talking about people who don't have access to the same facts you do; don't know the issues as well as you do, despite superficial exposure sufficient to prompt them to form an opinion based on a series of assumptions; or individuals who don't trust that all of the documents they've seen accurately reflect the truth of the matter.
So people who form strong beliefs without looking into an issue and assume their opponents are automatically misguided don't qualify as acting stupid?
We wouldn't be having a debate over health care if that were true.
The fact that nations significantly poorer than us have managed to carry it out sort of shows that isn't true.
Nor how to best administer the welfare program. Government resources are finite, and I think Republicans keep in mind better than Democrats the fact that spending on one item inherently reduces what is left for spending on others.
That isn't the Republican position. That would be the position of a conservative political party in a country that already has health care.
Republicans are also correct to emphasize individual initiative and personal responsibility. While the latter often spins off into morality tales, the idea of learning to fend for oneself without depending upon society, or misplacing one's faith in the powers-that-be, is extraordinarily important. Part of the Republican message is: "Don't expect somebody else to provide a solution. It's not always going to be available." Self-reliance. Democrats are quick to insist that we need social safety nets. That's fine. However, the automatic assumption that Republicans are heartless, or else unreasonably selfish, is unfair.
I am familiar with that. The problem is that getting people self reliant is seem as a goal in and of itself and not as a secondary goal towards helping people.
Who draws the line?
Well, we already have a way to set a value to human life- why don't we just use that?
How much of your health care am I responsible for? What are the reasons you couldn't find or keep affordable insurance?
-Just as much as every other citizen.
-You mean we can't punish people for making stupid decisions? I'm not certain that death should be the penalty for stupidity.
What's wrong with wanting to keep the fruits of my labor?
Because no one ever does? Every society requires its members to contribute to its existance.
What if I don't expect anything from you?
I'll still be there, as will Uncle Sam.
Why is it so morally reprehensible to discuss these issues? Why can't you refrain from judgments of character?
Why should I help other people and prevent them from dying? Yeah, I have no clue why people get worked up about this.
You know exactly what I mean.
You mean like the Medicare for everyone rebranding proposal?
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Ford Prefect »

Could someone try and clue me in on what Kast is trying to argue here? I'd just read it, but my eyes just slide right off the page. Frankly, it seems fairly obvious that the reason why conservatives hate Obama is because they're conservatives. Obama is progression incarnate: he's a black US President. Can you imagine trying to suggest this to a conservative in the 70s or 80s? That a black man would one day be POTUS? After dozens of old white dudes being the president, having an old white dude be president was just the done thing.

This is a simplistic approach to the question, but from what I understand of conservatives, it seems fairly plausible.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Axis Kast »

So people who form strong beliefs without looking into an issue and assume their opponents are automatically misguided don't qualify as acting stupid?
So people who form strong beliefs without looking into an issue and assume their opponents are automatically misguided qualify as uneducated. Despite the apparent popular consensus on this forum, that does not mean that they cannot be educated now or in the future.

Obviously, conservatives were persuaded of the correctness of their present beliefs at some point in the past. Nobody embraces an ethos they believe is unsound. No conservative believes he or she espouses ideas that are socially detrimental. What does this mean?

For every one of their policy preferences, conservatives will be able to offer what they believe are (1) examples of policy success; (2) examples of policy failure; and/or (3) an explanation of why their vision is ideal, and the reasons that is the case. That means there's some basis to challenge them.
The fact that nations significantly poorer than us have managed to carry it out sort of shows that isn't true.
All spending is rationing. I was referring to the fact that Republicans are nervous about spending so much money for anything, not just healthcare.

Also, the fact that nations significantly poorer have managed to implement universal health care does not mean that we must, or should. It means only that it is materially possible.
That isn't the Republican position. That would be the position of a conservative political party in a country that already has health care.
It's the Republican superposition. Republicans are concerned both (A) to reduce government spending so that fewer resources are extracted from the population, which they argue is always better-served by being able to do with that money as it pleases, and (B) to avoid endorsing any arrangement which they believe might (1) ruin the perceived high quality of subsequent care for all, and (2) constitute the first step in a series of new economic policies that generate a sense of entitlement which reduces personal enterprise.

The Democrats have failed to remind them that (A) quality healthcare can be regarded as a classic public good -- an item none of us can secure by our efforts alone, but which, for only modest personal contribution, can be got in virtually any amount desired, and is generally acknowledged to be of extraordinary value to every person; (B) there is no functional difference between being turned away at a hospital for failure to pay and being turned away because beds are full, while the experience in other countries has not been to confirm that, with greater access, there will be a spike in demand so great as to absolutely defy satisfaction; (C) lack of access to healthcare is a greater, confirmed, economic problem than any theoretical reduction in willingness to work once health benefits are secured.
Well, we already have a way to set a value to human life- why don't we just use that?
Which is what? Sanctioned by whom? Are you referring to actuarial tables? This is merely a vision you wish to impose upon others. You think healthcare is very important; you wouldn't like to live yourself without it, or to see others have to suffer similarly. Because you also feel that the burden, shared out across the whole population, will also tend to be acceptable, you have decided that we should legislate for this outcome.
Just as much as every other citizen.
And how much is that? To what extent?
You mean we can't punish people for making stupid decisions? I'm not certain that death should be the penalty for stupidity.
I do support laws that make health insurance like car insurance; people who can afford it should be made to take insurance before the rest of the country is made to finance it, if we are decided to consider it mandatory.
Because no one ever does? Every society requires its members to contribute to its existance.
To a degree. I have really asked, "Where will your taking of my money end?" Tomorrow, will you tell me, like the Finns, that you have a right to wireless Internet? To personal computer access? To forty acres and a mule?
I'll still be there, as will Uncle Sam.
I could be quite content to ignore you, as has been the case for most of history. And Uncle Sam, for purposes of this argument, does what you and I decide.
Why should I help other people and prevent them from dying? Yeah, I have no clue why people get worked up about this.
Because their participation may be required for your political satisfaction.
Could someone try and clue me in on what Kast is trying to argue here? I'd just read it, but my eyes just slide right off the page. Frankly, it seems fairly obvious that the reason why conservatives hate Obama is because they're conservatives. Obama is progression incarnate: he's a black US President. Can you imagine trying to suggest this to a conservative in the 70s or 80s? That a black man would one day be POTUS? After dozens of old white dudes being the president, having an old white dude be president was just the done thing.
Except conservative could not possibly mean "wants to freeze everything forever," and conservatives cannot be against social progress: how else to explain Sarah Palin? We may justly say that she is unfit for public office. You cannot deny, however, that she was a female with whom many of the "diehards" in the Republican Party would have been well-satisfied.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Ford Prefect »

Axis Kast wrote:Except conservative could not possibly mean "wants to freeze everything forever," and conservatives cannot be against social progress: how else to explain Sarah Palin? We may justly say that she is unfit for public office. You cannot deny, however, that she was a female with whom many of the "diehards" in the Republican Party would have been well-satisfied.
You can't seriously be forwarding Sarah Palin as an example of Republican progressiveness. Yeah, Palin has a pair of X chromosones, but she's also against homosexual marriage, against abortion, pro-abstinence, believes strongly in the right to bear arms, supports further drilling for oil in the Alaskan wilderness, has a neocon view of foreign policy, is deeply religious, etcetera. I think I can safely say she was selected because she's female and was thus history making in the way that Obama was (Piyush Jindal would have worked as well). But do you think the Republican party would have ever picked her for president? They probably wouldn't be making nearly as much noise if it was Biden/Obama instead of Obama/Biden.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

What kind of social progress do the conservatives propose or support, anyway? I mean, shit, even in her own party didn't other Republicans hate Sarah Palin forever? :P

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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Ford Prefect »

There are polls to the effect that a majority of Republicans do think that Palin was a benefit to the McCain ticket. I think I remember something along the lines of Republican politicans not liking her, though.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Patrick Degan »

Axis Kast wrote:
Quite easily —by never changing a single idea to start with and holding to fixed notions despite the movement of the rest of the world, and then reacting with increasing intolerance toward a world which no longer considers their ideas workable, relevant, or even remotely logical.
You stated that conservatives had become more or less of something, not that society's relative movement had made them appear more or less something.
Which defeats the point... how, exactly? Are you going to try to argue that reactionary resistance to a changing world does not induce a further tilt toward extremism?
More than that, conservatives have clearly proven changeable: before 9/11, many proudly identified as isolationists; after Bush teed up their support for the invasion of Iraq, many could only be described as military interventionists.
"Many" is a quantifiable term... how, exactly? And American conservatism has hardly been isolationist.
Judgment is clearly a component of what you do. Running throughout your replies in this thread is a confident, nearly blind presumption that there can be only evil in a man's heart when he says, "A man should mostly take care of himself," and, "I oughtn't have to pay so many taxes."
A strawman is a strawman is a strawman, no matter how many times you keep trying to put it up. I thought we hashed through this particular invalid approach to argument years ago. It seems you have learned nothing since the last time you were regularly getting your ass kicked in on these boards and are determined to make the same mistakes again.
Of course they doubt it —because they don't want to contribute a goddamned thing and see their wealth and achievements entirely as if they came from a vacuum, with zero connection to a wider world which made the conditions which made their wealth and achievements possible in the first place. That's at the root of every "It's MY money" argument.
You've never satisfactorily proven to anyone that conservatives got their wealth from, or were able to get anywhere on account of, this hazy "other" called "a wider world." You've never provided any kind of mechanism to be able to quantify, or even qualify, this supposed contribution and corresponding debt. Whenever anybody asks you for substation, you merely assert your belief in a "Social Contract," as if it is self-evident truth.
Here's an experiment for you to test this proposition: try pursuing your interests to the degree of success you'd like to attain in a place like Somalia and see how far you actually manage to get.
Another strawman. It is not unreasonable to posit the observation that those who benefit from society should take a hand in its maintenance —if for no other reason than ensuring that the society they benefit from remains viable so they can continue benefiting from it.
You've now staked out an even more ambitious position: without some undefined extent of open-handedness, society will no longer be "viable." What does that mean, spelled out in more than a sentence? How did you arrive at this conclusion, and how can I be assured that this is not riding the philosophical slippery slope too far?
No I haven't, actually. It is you, rather, who seems to be arguing that a society can continue to be viable all by itself simply because... well, you don't even bother to try to explain your alternative vision at all, do you? Just what is so difficult to comprehend about the proposition that a society does indeed depend upon the support of it's population to maintain itself and by tangible means such as taxation to finance necessary functions and services? How do the police get paid for? Or the fire department? Or the schools? Or sewer construction and maintenace? What pays for paving the roads? What funds public health services? Or garbage collection? Or any of several dozen other mechanisms and services which a functional society actually needs to remain functional? How does it all happen, Axi? Magick?
Your philosophy on what is "necessary" or "reasonable" seems to have a lot in common with your personal opinions about what is most important or most desirable in organized society. In other words, "Do this, because I said so." You sound an awful lot like the doctrinare conservatives insisting, "Because God said so! Because it's in the Bible!" That's when I ask them to prove to me that the Bible is assuredly the Word of God.
The difference is that I do not appeal to the Invisible Cloud-Being as a source of authority but an observable mechanism which is quite readily testable and open for examination. Your questions have been repeatedly answered and you just keep repeating yourself as if nothing had been said in the first place.
It is readily observable that charity donation is nowhere near sufficient to see to the needs of the poorer segments of a large and complex society but conservatives continue to insist that somehow, someway, charity will actually meet those needs in sufficient quantity. Problem is, they never actually bother to explain how this is to be workable to the extent they insist it will but is just presented as an a priori assertion. When confronted with facts that charity won't actually fill the gaps in the provision of social services, however, they simply repeat the same arguments: government is inefficient, charity is sufficient.
The conservative willingness to make donation to charity in the first place clashes with your earlier perception that they are inherently selfish and tight-fisted.
Because the tax deductions for doing so, of course, have no influence whatsoever upon that decision, I suppose? Or the demands of church-membership? Take those away and what incentive is there to continue charitable giving even to the extent that now exists?
When confronted with the statement, "Government is inefficient," do you simply reply, "No, it isn't!" and then pull your hair out when disagreement persists? You treat the potential debate as if there must be equivalency. My point is that conservatives will often be unable to sustain their positions; if you want to challenge them, the investment of effort on behalf of evidence will often need to be primarily your own.
The problem is that this debate keeps being had and evidence continues to be put up which destroys the proposition and conservatives will turn right around and continue arguing "government is inefficient" as if nothing had ever been said. This is simply taken as a priori.
And that's nice as far as it goes. Unfortunately, it doesn't go anywhere near as far as it needs to —a fact conservatives are loathe to admit, much less concede.
You said that it was selective, not that it was merely insufficient.
It is selective and it is insufficient just from examining the numbers as well as the scope of action for private organisations v. government agencies. There is also the question of which system is more accountable to public scrutiny. As demonstrated in this monograph:
Charity in the United States

In 1993, Americans contributed $126 billion dollars to charity. This averages out to $880 per contributing household, or 2.1 percent of contributing household income. For all households, that works out to $646 per household, or about 1.7 percent of household income. (1) In general, the poor give a greater percentage of their income to charity than the rich. Consider:

Household income and percent given to charity (1993) (2)

Percent of income
Income level given to charity
--------------------------------------
Under $10,000 2.7%
$10,000 - 19,999 2.3
$20,000 - 29,999 2.7
$30,000 - 39,999 2.0
$40,000 - 49,999 1.3
$50,000 - 59,999 1.1
$60,000 - 74,999 2.3
$75,000 - 99,999 2.0
Over $100,000 ?

There are statistical difficulties in determining the percentage of charity donated by those in the richest group, because this group includes billionaires as well as those making "merely" $100,000 a year. However, even if better research clarifies this question, we should remember that different income groups make different types of charitable contributions anyhow. The rich tend to donate to "rich" charities; the poor tend to donate to "poor" charities.

Charity experts have long known that donors give to charities with whom they identify and from whom they might reasonably expect something in return. (Indeed, the Olasky argument above strongly suggests this.) While the very poor tend to donate more to the Salvation Army, the very rich tend to donate more to the arts, humanities and sciences. Because the rich still donate more in absolute dollars, this has caused a serious mismatch between donations and allocations. Only about 10 percent of charitable contributions are specifically directed to the poor. (3)

Furthermore, charities are highly localized. Most are small neighborhood organizations that are tied to their immediate community by their charters, service missions, support bases, and relationships with trustees. They reflect their neighborhood's values, religious preferences, interests, problems and, above all, income. As charity expert Julian Wolpert writes: "Most of the donations that charities raise go to support community churches and synagogues, Y's, museums, public radio and television, universities, and parochial schools -- the services that donors themselves use -- and these funds are largely unavailable for helping the neediest." (4) For these reasons, almost 90 percent of all charity funds are both raised and spent locally. (5) But what this means is that communities with high incomes tend to enjoy well-funded charity programs; those with low incomes tend to suffer poorly-funded ones. This is exactly backwards from the way it should be. It would be more logical to see well-funded organizations transfer their help to the communities that need it most, but their ties to the local community prevent them. Even re-allocating funds within a community is difficult. For example, if an epidemic breaks out in a local community, an educational charity cannot re-allocate its funds or resources to help out a health charity. The situation is akin to a fire department being unable to help out the police department during a crime wave.

The following chart shows how the $126 billion in charitable donations was allocated in 1993:

Allocation of charitable donations (1993) (6)

Type of Percent of
organization total collections
------------------------------------------
Church or religion 45.3%
Education 12.0
Human Service 10.0
Health 8.6
Unclassified 8.5
Arts, culture and
humanities 7.6
Public/societal benefit 4.3
Environmental/wildlife 2.5
International 1.5

Most donations go to churches, but churches are an excellent example of the localized nature of charities. And churches with even national charity campaigns hardly spend a substantial amount of their money on helping the poor. Until recently, the Seventh-day Adventist church had one of the most enviable records of charity collections of any U.S. religious denomination. Yet its department devoted to helping out the poor and needy -- the Dorcas Society -- received only a tiny fraction of the church's donations. Instead, the vast majority went to church administration, religious and educational facilities, and a remarkable world-wide missionary effort to convert other nationalities to their faith. (7)

In a thorough review of charities in the United States, Wolpert summed up the problems of replacing welfare with charity this way:

* There is a serious mismatch between the location of charitable resources and needs.
* There is a mismatch between the kind of programs that attract charitable donations and the kind that benefit needy people.
* Charities are severely limited in their freedom to shift their efforts to the places and programs that are in the most trouble.
* The voluntary hand of charity as a substitute for government entitlements might involve objectionable religious, political, and social intrusion into the lives of many people. (8)

The Liberal Response

In 1992, Hurricane Andrew devastated Southern Florida, leaving 137,000 homes destroyed or damaged and 250,000 people homeless. Imagine, for a moment, that there was no federal emergency response, and that charities and private organizations were responsible for the cleanup and recovery. Of course, most of the charities in Southern Florida were destroyed along with everything else, so local charities would be of little help. By definition, the charity response would have to come from other communities -- but, as we have seen, most charities are small and tied to their local communities, and not designed to export their help. Clearly, a disaster the size of Hurricane Andrew calls for a national response -- but how is a neighborhood charity in Seattle, Washington going to ship its few volunteers and resources all the way to Florida?

If thousands of independent, local charities from all across the nation tried to help out the victims of Hurricane Andrew, the resulting confusion, duplication of effort and the lack of a clear, overall strategy would waste much of their time and effort. In this respect, the federal government has a huge advantage over thousands of isolated, disparate charities; it can draw on deep strategic reserves and allocate them according to an organized plan. Furthermore, the operations required to fight a national disaster are far different from the ones required to fight local neighborhood problems. Small charities are not even suited for these different mission requirements.

Many conservatives -- Olasky among them -- concede that the federal government is more efficient at handling national disasters like the Great Depression. However, they argue that in a normally functioning economy, charities are sufficient to handle the everyday poverty they find.

But this is not true either. Our economy is dynamic, and hard times may hit one region one year, another region the next. Many will recall the film Roger and Me, which detailed the horrific unemployment and economic devastation that visited Flint, Michigan when General Motors closed down its auto plants and moved them to Mexico. This single business decision resulted in years of hardship -- but the city is recovering today. California is another example; it did not recover with the rest of the nation after the 1991 recession, and its poverty rate remained high. Yet, within a few years, the state returned to a booming economy.

Economic twists and turns like this are almost impossible to predict. When they do hit a region, the very charity organizations that would help it -- the local ones -- are the least able to help, since they suffer too. So a national charity organization would have to set up offices in these temporarily stricken regions, only to uproot them when good times returned and move them to the next stricken region. That is expensive, and a waste of resources. Compare that to the current federal system, which already has offices everywhere (doing more than just welfare); this makes it much simpler to divert the required funds to the appropriate regions. And as we have seen, charitable donors tend to donate only to their own communities; we should expect to find little support for national charities that spend most of the donor's money elsewhere. Indeed, the current federal system is unpopular for exactly that reason.

Furthermore, charity is a drop in the bucket compared to all the social spending conducted by the government. The total assets (as opposed to merely the income from endowments) of America's 34,000 foundations add up to only about 10 percent of current government expenditures for social welfare and related domestic programs. (9) As Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan says, "There are... not enough social workers, not enough nuns, not enough Salvation Army workers" to care for the millions of people who would be dropped from the welfare rolls.

To replace welfare with charity, our society would have to boost its charitable giving tenfold. Which raises an interesting point: conservatives bitterly assail the federal government for making them pay taxes to help the poor. Why, then, would they turn around and happily surrender an equal amount to charity? The answer, of course, is that they would not. Once conservatives are freed from their obligation to help the needy, charitable donations will continue to languish as they always have.

Here conservatives might return to Olasky's argument: that they would feel more inclined to give to charities that espoused traditional family values and conservative morals. But, as we have seen, Olasky's idea of charity is to dispense advice, not funds. There is no question that a charity that simply tells the needy, "Get a job," is less expensive to run. But it should be pointed out that Olasky's entire argument is really a disingenuous change of subject. The original argument was that charity could replace welfare. In Olasky's world of privatized philanthropy, this is not the case; welfare would be eliminated but charity donations would not rise to replace it. This is a different argument, one about the benefits of eliminating most financial aid to the poor, not replacing it.

Finally, there is a matter of accountability. Private charities are notorious for spending 90 percent of their revenues on administrative costs. Many will certainly remember the fund-raising efforts of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, who raised millions ostensibly to spread the word of God -- but actually spent it on themselves. In such cases, a donor's only recourse is to stop giving once the scandal breaks. These scandals are often belated, because the media does not actively search out scandals in the private sector; they need to be tipped off to them. The scandal may put this fraudulent charity out of business, but there always seems to be another to take its place.

By contrast, the federal government is held much more strictly accountable for its actions. The media conducts an intense and proactive search for scandals in government, and their discovery becomes front page news. This results in enormous political pressure to correct deficiencies. Just one example is FEMA -- the Federal Emergency Management Agency. This is the agency commissioned with helping Americans recover from natural disasters. Under President Reagan, the nature of these disasters was assumed to be nuclear, and the agency poured millions into the creation of nuclear-proof command and control structures that would survive and "win" a nuclear war. Needless to say, it was completely unprepared to deal with the many natural disasters that were actually occurring. It took FEMA three days just to show up after Hurricane Andrew, and they snarled its victims with an unforgivable amount of red tape. Media reports sparked such public outrage that Senate hearings were held. Senator Fritz Hollings called FEMA "the sorriest bunch of bureaucratic jackasses I've ever known." (10) Under the intense glare of the national media, reforms occurred. James Lee Witt took over the ailing organization and completely turned it around. Today, it is one of the best functioning agencies in government, and is winning praise even from its former critics.*

In sum, the claim that charity can replace federal social spending -- and do it better -- is a hopelessly unfounded one.

*n.b. this was written in 1996, several years before Bush Jr. turned FEMA into a crony-infested adjunct of the Department of Homeland Security
To underscore this point, New Orleans was the subject of outside charitable assistance in the weeks and months following the Katrina disaster and private organisations and initiatives continue to operate to do what they can with the resources they've got at their command. The sad fact is that these efforts are nowhere near able to cope with the task of rebuilding a city after a major flood and New Orleans would be in far worse shape than it is even now were it not for the amount of Federal aid it has already received.
In a word, bullshit. And actually quite comical coming from somebody who keeps presenting his personal anecdotes and incredulity as "evidence" of anything.
See above.
A predictable evasion.
To borrow a phrase from the Bible: "By their works Ye shall Know them" (Luke 13:26).
I guess that musn't apply to me; only Democrats.
I'm sorry, is that you attempting to be clever?
No, you simply chose to dismiss a historical article which backed the observation as "opinion" and continue your patented handwaving. Seems you're falling back to your usual bad habits.
No, I simply question (1) how the article speaks to Bill Kristol's personal beliefs, abstracted from a sentence or two; (2) how somebody could possibly be making an argument from theological Calvinism if not a Calvinist. Are conservatives all "secret Calvinists" or something? Unless they are Dutch Reformed, they probably aren't hearing very much about the "elect" and the "unworthy." How, then, can they be secret Calvinists, as you claim?
How exactly does it follow logically that a Calvinist worldview can only be espoused or held by a religious Calvinist? You're drifting into No True Scottsman territory.

To reinforce the earlier point, which you try to just dismiss out of hand, Milan Zafirovski, associate professor of sociology at the University of North Texas in Denton, writes in his academic paper "Radical Puritanism ‘Rediscovered’: Elements and Legacies of Extremism and Anti-Egalitarianism":
Puritanism and Anti-Egalitarianism

This section elaborates on and evidences Puritanism’s political and other anti-egalitarianism considered to be, as even Popper (1973) and many contemporary economists (Acemoglu 2005; Putterman, Roemer and Silvestre 1998; Pryor 2002) suggest, a particular dimension or at least correlate and complement of authoritarianism and so extremism or radicalism in politics and all society. It explores Puritanism’ elements and legacies of political and economic inequality as well as its links of inequalities in the economy with repression in the polity.

Puritanism and Political Inequalities

As intimated, Puritanism intrinsically constitutes or creates and leaves as its legacy a system of political and other inequalities or anti-egalitarianism, sanctified as a “part of providential design” (Bendix 1984) and via Weber’s theodicy cum sociodicy (Bourdieu 1998), in politics and society. Original Puritanism was anti-egalitarian in political and economic terms, and also bequeathed as a sort of “God’s providence” an enduring and strong legacy of anti-egalitarianism in politics as well as economy within historically Puritan societies, particularly America and to a lesser extent Great Britain. Specifically, proto-Puritanism initially was and neo-Puritanism, in the derived and generalized form of modern Protestant sectarianism, remained, with some prudent adaptations, essentially aristocratic, oligarchic or hierarchical and to that extent politically anti-egalitarian and so (as implied in Popper [8] 1973; also Acemoglu 2005; Putterman et al. 1998; Pryor 2002) authoritarian and repressive, thus extreme or radical in this sense.

As an early though transient historical instance, in the wake of its Revolution (the 1640s-60s) victorious Puritanism in England (re)established and ruled as narrow repressive aristocracy and medieval-style political hierarchy overall opposing any democratic innovations in politics (Goldstone 1991; Gorski 2000), specifically exclusive theocratic oligarchy. It did so in the form of what Comte and Weber call the “reign” or aristocratic domination of the “sinful world” by Puritan religious virtuosi with self-assigned Divine Rights to rule, embodied by Cromwell and his “holy wars” (Gorski 2000) and the “Parliament of Saints”, yet couched in the anti-monarchical facade and rhetoric of “republic” in opposition to the Monarchy and the Anglican Church.

In a sense, English-American Puritanism was the “providential design” and institutional system of political (and economic) inequality, exclusion and oppression from its very genesis, derivation or extension from, as Weber and other sociologists (e.g. Eisenstadt 1965) note, already staunchly anti-egalitarian, exclusive and oppressive, medieval-style, European Calvinism to Old and New England in the late 16th and early 17th century. Thus, according to a historical study, what is connoted the “significant career of Puritanism as an ideology of exclusion” (Ashton 1965:587) commenced with its Calvinist (re)birth and expansion in England during the 1590s (e.g. after the English defeat of Spain).

Hence, in terms of exclusion or anti-egalitarianism, European Calvinism, basically rooted in anti-egalitarian medievalism and even seeking to recreate a “purer medieval past” (Eisenstadt 1965), historically over-determined (Sprunger 1982) or, as Calvin himself might say, predestined English and in extension American Puritanism, just as the latter did historically Puritan societies, primarily America, secondarily Great Britain. In short, English and then American Puritanism was “created unequal” (Galbraith 1998) or anti-egalitarian by European Calvinism as its historical Creator, rather than, as usually and naively assumed (Coffey 1998), “equal” in the sense of egalitarian and liberal-democratic. Then, Geneva’s Calvinists and European medieval theocratic aristocrats or oligarchs (and rationalizing scholastics) would be justified in finding, in respect of anti-egalitarianism and authoritarianism, “nothing new under the sun” of English and then American Puritanism, contrary to its venerable claims to novelty and exceptionality from anti-egalitarian medievalism or the old world, if not Calvinism (as “foreign”).

As intimated on various occasions, another, more enduring and probably more pertinent historical exemplar is provided, to recall, by New England’s proto-Puritan mixed aristocracie of Winthrop et al. At this juncture, this curious Puritan political creation originated or operated as a medieval-style aristocracy of hierarchy and exclusion (Bremer 1995; Gould 1996), notably a narrow oligarchy of sectarian persecution and theocratic oppression (Munch 2001; Stivers 1994), exemplified and symbolized by “Salem with witches” (Putnam 2000:355), though, predictably, following its English original and/or displaying what Weber calls American Puritanism’s “pure hypocrisy”, couched in and rationalized by the official formula or, in his words, formal rationality and democracy--in a charitable interpretation given Winthrop et al.'s hostility or suspicion toward “democratical government”--of “Republic.” In turn, this official formula of New England’s “Republic” seemingly misled sympathetic Tocqueville into depicting American Puritanism as being “not merely a religious doctrine”, but also corresponding with the “most absolute democratic and republican theories” or liberalism, including egalitarianism, and republicanism, as still do his US admirers (e.g. Lipset and Marks 2000), and perhaps even more skeptical Weber to suggest its “anti-authoritarian tendency”, though not Comte, Pareto and other critical European sociological observers of Puritan America. These observers basically regarded New England’s “Republic” as a medieval or pre-medieval exclusive and repressive aristocracy, notably theocratic oligarchy or oligarchic theocracy, in changed Puritan clothes, a sort of “old wine in the new bottle” (though not the best of metaphors given US Puritanism’s condemnation and prohibition of and perpetual obsession with alcohol in the style of, if not emulating and inspired by, Islam). And, even were it really a “republic” in the traditional sense, it was far from being a liberal-secular (and any) democracy as a system of political freedom and equality, as historical and sociological studies suggest (Bremer 1995; Munch 2001; Stivers 1994), which thus contradicts the “naïve assumptions of Puritanism and liberty” (Coffey 1998).

Hence, in virtue and to the degree of Winthrop’s mixed aristocracie, contrary to its claim to egalitarian and democratic exceptionalism (Lipset and Marks 2000), original American Puritanism was basically almost as politically anti-egalitarian and so authoritarian as its British parent and in extension European Calvinism as their common basis, as well as medieval (Catholic-based) feudalism and despotism. The above holds true, with some variations, of derived American Puritanism in the form or sense of Protestant sectarianism (Lipset 1996) generalized and even become predominant, via various neo-Puritan revivals since the Great Awakenings, to most of America, notably the “old” (Episcopal) South transformed into a sectarian “Bible Belt”. Thus, some sociologists implicitly identify another instance of Puritanism’s practice or legacy of exclusion and anti-egalitarianism in American politics by detecting and emphasizing narrow, exclusionary political rule (a la “good old boys”) and selection processes (Amenta, Bonastia and Neal 2001) and a myriad of other deformations of democracy (Cochran 2001) in the “new”, Puritan-remade South (Boles 1999; Mencken 1982).

Such persisting Southern political eccentricities or anomalies, even when placed within Puritan America itself (as implied in Cochran 2001), demonstrate and confirm that this region continues to exhibit the salient degree of oligarchic, exclusionary and anti-egalitarian, just as theocratic, so authoritarian continuity with proto-Puritan New England’s mixt aristocracie andtheocracy (“Biblical Commonwealth”). As intimated, these continuities historically originated in and initiated with the Puritan-incited Great Awakenings aiming and eventually succeeding to expand Puritanism and thus its anti-egalitarianism and authoritarianism from its New England point of origin to all America as the final destination. To that extent, at least the still politically exclusionary (plus religiously sectarian), oligarchic and under-democratic South continues to epitomize and reflect Puritanism’s institutions, practices or legacies of political (and other) anti-egalitarianism, exclusion and authoritarianism in contemporary America. In terms of exclusion and anti-egalitarianism, like authoritarianism, notably theocracy, the post-bellum neo-Puritan South has become what colonial proto-Puritan New England was—i.e. a system of exclusionary politics as well as sectarian religion in the model or image of “Salem with witches” (for example, in the updated form of “Monkey Trials” and other actual or metaphorical witch-trials of enemies). Moreover, during the late 20th and early 21st century, in these terms the South basically (and seemingly proudly) remained (a functional equivalent or historical successor of) what New England was from the 17th to 19th century. This indicates that some, anti-egalitarian, as well as authoritarian, notably theocratic, institutions or things almost never change—or, as in the French proverb, “the more they change, the more they stay the same”—in the long and seemingly never-ending historical and geographical march of Puritanism, from Reformation France (and Geneva) and Calvin to England and Cromwell, to New England and Winthrop et al. to the South and Bible-Belt sectarians, to modern American religious-political conservatism as a whole (viz. McCarthyism and Reaganism).

Puritanism and Economic Inequalities

Relatedly, as intimated, Puritanism also constitutes, creates and leaves as its legacy the system of economic inequalities or anti-egalitarianism in economy, just as politics, to form an integral and usually consistent complex and “method in the madness” of pervasive inequality and exclusion in society. Perhaps even more than or decreasingly so (at least in its formal declarations or rhetoric) in politics due to countervailing democratic-egalitarian political forces (e.g. Jefferson’s “created equal”, modern civil-rights movements, global human rights conventions), Puritanism’s original attribute as well as historical creation and contemporary legacy has been anti-egalitarianism in economy or sharp and widening wealth and income inequalities, especially in America and to a comparable, but lesser extent, Great Britain.

Simply, if not so much or openly in political terms, Puritanism has always been and continues to be, via its generalizations in religious conservatism and sectarianism as in contemporary America, economically anti-egalitarian or exclusionary both through its institutions and practices and in its religious-political ideas or preaching (“sword and word”). It typically creates and perpetuates material inequalities and exclusions as well as mounts an overt, uncompromising and unapologetic defense of them sanctified, like political inequality and exclusion, as part of Providential “intelligent” design, plus rationalized, as done by US neo-conservatism, in terms of “merit”, thus through a mix of Weber’s medieval-style theodicy a la Divine Plan and Rights with sociodicy (Bourdieu 1998) or social neo-Darwinism. Alternatively, Puritanism tends to eliminate or reduce economic egalitarianism and inclusion as well as engage in an equally open, categorical and stringent condemnation of material equality as contrary to “God’s Providence” and Divine Rights of Puritan masters (theodicy), just as, as does US neo-conservatism, “undeserved”, “inefficient” and even “destructive” to the economy (sociodicy).

Historically, following Calvinism’s theological rationalization of economic inequality, original Puritanism’s economic anti-egalitarianism was manifest in creating and/or justifying sharp wealth inequalities and so class divisions as Divinely Ordained destiny analogous to and, as Weber suggests, rooted in the Calvinist dogma pre-destination, as well as anti-charity (or anti-welfare) ideas, institutions and practices, in those societies it temporarily or enduringly governed like Old and New England, respectively. This is what Weber suggests observing that Puritanism since its gestation in Calvin’s writings and activities tended to institute and advocate the “unjust, but equally divinely ordained, distribution of wealth” or class divisions, and was to that extent, contrary to its claims to novelty, basically no different from also anti-egalitarian Lutheranism and medieval Catholicism. In essence, Calvinist Puritanism fully embraced the medieval or older theological dogma of official Catholicism that, as Weber puts it, the “unequal distribution of the goods of this world was a special dispensation of Divine Providence”--i.e. a sort of theodicy of material inequality and class divisions (i.e. justification, and perhaps eventually Machiavellian-like exploitation or invocation, of God by economic anti-egalitarianism). Thus, a historical study concludes that Puritanism has always been a “class ideology” (Folsom 1948:424) of sharp wealth divisions, from Calvinism to its English and American variants in Old and New England.

In turn, Puritanism’s legacy of economic anti-egalitarianism or class divisions, including anti-welfare institutions, ideas and practices, has been particularly manifest, pervasive and enduring in America and to a lesser extent Great Britain, probably reflecting its long and total mastery (New England) and subsequent dominance (the South) in the first case, and its brief rule (Cromwell) and eventually “abortive” Revolution in the second. As mentioned, judging by the comparative indexes of economic egalitarianism (Putterman et al. 1998) or universalism (Pampel 1998), this Puritan anti-egalitarian legacy remains strong, pervasive and enduring in contemporary society. Thus, historically Puritan societies, primarily America, secondarily Great Britain, are estimated to have the lowest scores of official economic egalitarianism or universalism (“collectivism”) in the sense of universal welfare or public material benefits, conjoined with its political form expressed in consensus democracy and absence of violent political conflict, in modern Western democracies (Pampel 1998).

And probably in consequence to this government anti-egalitarianism rooted in Puritanism, historically Puritan societies like America and to a lesser or diminishing extent Great Britain have as a rule the greatest degrees of actual economic inequality among Protestant and other Western countries. Thus, these Puritan societies’ lowest (and negative) scores on public egalitarianism or universalism are typically correlated with their highest levels of income and wealth inequalities (e.g. Gini indexes, the wealth share of the richest 1 percent) among these countries. As expected given its Puritan destiny or over-determination, this especially holds true of America that epitomizes more than any other Western Protestant and other society this link. It does so by continuing to be, by the 21st century--as has been mostly in the past (since the robber-barons era or the 1920s)--a kind of Western leader both in public anti-egalitarianism and actual wealth (Wolff 2002; also Keister and Moller 2000) and income inequalities (2000 Luxembourg Income Study), as indicated by virtually all statistical data and measures (e.g. the share of the top 1 percent and Gini indexes).

Particularly and predictably, some economists and sociologists identify and emphasize anti-welfare neo-conservative Puritan-rooted or -style government economic policies in America as well as Great Britain (Hudson and Coukos 2005; Quadagno 1999; Smeeding 2006; also Chaves 1999). In this view, the “harsh moral tenor” of English and American welfare institutions and policies, spanning from the late 19th to the early 21st century, is “rooted” in Calvinist Puritanism, the legacy of which primarily explains “why English and American hostility to public aid is not shared by other Protestant countries”, with the link being particularly “explicit” between Reaganism/Thatcherism and Methodism (Hudson and Coukos 2005:5) as what Mill and Weber consider a late-Puritan revival and (emotional) intensification. A likely specific indicator or proxy of this Puritan-rooted antagonism to the welfare state in America is also non-egalitarian (non-progressive) as well as non-redistributive taxation, as exemplified by the US lowest marginal taxes and the highest income threshold for the highest marginal tax (Smeeding 2006) among other Protestant societies. In short, the above suggests that Puritanism is at the root of what sociologists identify as the “new American exceptionalism” (Quadagno 1999) and even “backwardness” (Amenta et al. 2001) in terms of a welfare state within the Western world.

As indicated, a salient aspect of this Puritan legacy of economic anti-egalitarianism in the economy includes traditionally high, even recently (as during the 1980-2000s) further increasing economic inequalities in America by comparison with other less or non Puritan Protestant as well as Catholic societies. As known, primarily in consequence of neo-conservative anti-egalitarian (including anti-welfare and taxation) Puritan-rooted economic institutions, policies and ideas, America has by far the greatest income inequality by virtually all relevant criteria, including the highest and ever-growing comparative Gini index (Deininger and Squire 1996; Gottschalk and Smeeding 1997). Among such indicators, since the 1980s America features the greatest share of the top 20, 10 and 1 percent of the population in national income and wealth alike (Wolff 2002), highest executive (CEOs) total compensations both in absolute terms and as a ratio to worker pay (Abowd and Kaplan 1999), as well as among the lowest worker wages (e.g. hourly compensation for manufacturing workers), the lowest paid working poor (Smeeding 2006), and the lowest minimum wages within Western societies.

Another correlated dimension of Puritanism’s legacy of economic anti-egalitarianism, specifically its, as Weber, Tawney and others stress, original condemnation and attack of the poor through anti-charity and anti-welfare (Hudson and Coukos 2005) preaching, institutions and practices, in America is widespread, persistent poverty, just as a non-existent or minimal welfare state, by comparison with other Western societies. As well-known, among Western societies, America has traditionally had and continues to have by the 21st century the highest poverty (including child poverty) rates (invariably double-digit figure, around 12-20% depending on the measure used) as well as the lowest social benefit and other welfare expenditures as a key factor in the persistence of the American poor (Korpi and Palme 1998; Smeeding 2006).

Alternatively, all non or less historically Puritan, Protestant as well as Catholic societies, ranging from Great Britain and Canada to Scandinavia and France, have substantially lower (regularly, single-digit) rates of poverty either in general or in its particular dimensions (e.g. children in poor families). For example, data show that, as the Western country with the highest level of child poverty (alongside Italy), the United States contributes the least assistance to children as a percentage of GNP (Smeeding 2006), and overall has the lowest public expenditure or so among industrial countries (Tanzi and Schuknecht 1997), except for the military and other mechanisms of social control and repression (the police). Consider this remarkable American-Mexican convergence: For example, (as a 2000 UNICEF report finds) “Mexico and the United States now top the list of OECD countries where children live in “relative” poverty: More than one in four children in Mexico (26.2%) and more than one in five in the United States (22.4%) are poor” (cf. also Smeeding 2006).

Puritanism, Economic Inequalities and Political Repression

The preceding implies that both in original Calvinist Puritanism and its subsequent derivatives in Great Britain and America economic inequalities are intertwined and mutually reinforcing with political anti-egalitarianism and repression, thus epitomizing and confirming a general link of inequality, exclusion and oppression in economy with those in politics and society overall. As emphasized by some contemporary economists, Puritan-rooted conservative and any other “economic institutions that lead to a very unequal distribution of income and wealth are only consistent with a similarly unequal distribution of political power, i.e., with dictatorships and other repressive regimes” (Acemoglu 2005:1041). In this view, the slave-plantation economy in the ante-bellum, ultimately neo-Puritan US South, just as by implication New England’s proto-Puritan “trade in slaves and rum” (Foerster 1962:4), was impossible “together with democratic political institutions” (Acemoglu 2005:1041), and conversely possible to establish and endure only by a repressive state-church in a way of what Weber identifies as Puritanism’s alliance with or control of political power in early Great Britain and America.

Specifically, some economists implicitly detect and predict a link between conservative-produced or Puritan-rooted economic and political inequality and repression in America by identifying or predicting the movement of the US economy and polity toward an authoritarian, specifically oligarchic, economic and political system in which repression of the population persists and even tends to increase (Pryor 2002). In this view, “ever greater” wealth and income inequalities in America will eventually lead to “greater social unrest and crime” and consequently “harsher” repression of “un-American” economic-political groups--viz. workers and unions reduced to non-entities or nuisances resulting in an economy emptied of industrial democracy and so operating as a functional equivalent of a one-party political system--by a conservative policing state or repressive government through Puritan-inspired Draconian (“get tough”) institutions (Pryor 2002:359-64). In addition, economists and other analysts find that increasing economic inequalities in America under neo-Puritan conservatism result in lower rather than (as often supposed) higher, social mobility (Bjorkland and Janti 1997; Breen and Jonsson [9] 2005; Solon 2002) than other Protestant, especially Scandinavian, societies, thus effectively subverting, rather than promoting, the American Dream of “moving ahead” (Becker and Murphy 2000), just as linked with corruption [10] (You and Khagram 2005) in economy and politics.
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Axis Kast
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Axis Kast »

You can't seriously be forwarding Sarah Palin as an example of Republican progressiveness. Yeah, Palin has a pair of X chromosones, but she's also against homosexual marriage, against abortion, pro-abstinence, believes strongly in the right to bear arms, supports further drilling for oil in the Alaskan wilderness, has a neocon view of foreign policy, is deeply religious, etcetera. I think I can safely say she was selected because she's female and was thus history making in the way that Obama was (Piyush Jindal would have worked as well). But do you think the Republican party would have ever picked her for president? They probably wouldn't be making nearly as much noise if it was Biden/Obama instead of Obama/Biden.
This is classic. Only a few decades ago, a woman holding the highest office in the land was unthinkable. In 2008, the Republican Party nominated Sarah Palin as its vice presidential candidate. That is clearly a progressive act. All politics is self-interested -- or did the Democratic Party nominate Obama merely because he was black?

Significant segments of Sarah Palin's party have been interested in nominating her for president for several months now.
Which defeats the point... how, exactly? Are you going to try to argue that reactionary resistance to a changing world does not induce a further tilt toward extremism?
Republicans do not oppose change; they oppose change which they believe is unwise. Your caricature of the Republican Party is so flawed as to be ludicrous. You have completely abstracted these people from an actual political agenda.
"Many" is a quantifiable term... how, exactly? And American conservatism has hardly been isolationist.
Oh? As I recall, Bill Clinton didn't feel that way at all during the Wars of Yugoslavian Succession. Later, George W. Bush was the "inward-looking" candidate when matched with Al Gore, on retreat from Clintonian interventionism.
A strawman is a strawman is a strawman, no matter how many times you keep trying to put it up. I thought we hashed through this particular invalid approach to argument years ago. It seems you have learned nothing since the last time you were regularly getting your ass kicked in on these boards and are determined to make the same mistakes again.
We've hashed out nothing; you're simply comfortable with looking into men's hearts and claiming to know their innermost thoughts. You violate an essential rule of thumb in political analysis, pointed up by Graham Allison in his, "Three Images of the Cuban Missile Crisis:" you examine the outcome and then insist that this was what was intended.

The intent of the Republican Party in opposing universal health care is not to kill the "unwashed" masses of proletariat; it is to hold the line against what they regard as reckless spending that could only result in a decline in the standards of living for everyone involved. Intent can be abstracted from outcomes; also from facts.
Here's an experiment for you to test this proposition: try pursuing your interests to the degree of success you'd like to attain in a place like Somalia and see how far you actually manage to get.

Here's an experiment for you: prove that without universal healthcare, America will collapse and I will no longer be able to enjoy my current standard of living. I'd also like to see the dollar amount that you, Deegan, contribute to my welfare each day simply by existing.
No I haven't, actually. It is you, rather, who seems to be arguing that a society can continue to be viable all by itself simply because... well, you don't even bother to try to explain your alternative vision at all, do you? Just what is so difficult to comprehend about the proposition that a society does indeed depend upon the support of it's population to maintain itself and by tangible means such as taxation to finance necessary functions and services? How do the police get paid for? Or the fire department? Or the schools? Or sewer construction and maintenace? What pays for paving the roads? What funds public health services? Or garbage collection? Or any of several dozen other mechanisms and services which a functional society actually needs to remain functional? How does it all happen, Axi? Magick?
I support national healthcare; I justify it by arguing that the net benefit to society will far exceed the sacrifices made on an individual basis. However, I do not claim that everybody "owes" everybody else the fundamental "right" of healthcare. I fear that we've begun to descend down a slippery slope. Tomorrow, you will shout passionately that we all have a right to wireless Internet access; then, the next day, to mobile telephones, and, finally, to personal computers.

Why is healthcare as necessary as police, fire, or educational services? When my friends elect to buy Nintendo DS games before going to the doctor, does that mean that I am financing their video games when I pay higher taxes?

Unless you're asking, "Why anything?" the fact that I pay for some public goods does not (A) make healthcare a public good; (B) make a case for making healthcare a compulsory expense for every person.
The difference is that I do not appeal to the Invisible Cloud-Being as a source of authority but an observable mechanism which is quite readily testable and open for examination. Your questions have been repeatedly answered and you just keep repeating yourself as if nothing had been said in the first place.
But for which you can provide only assertions that I "owe" you and others for my success in life. If I disagree, you honestly tell me that the alternative to paying for universal healthcare is anarchy.
Because the tax deductions for doing so, of course, have no influence whatsoever upon that decision, I suppose? Or the demands of church-membership? Take those away and what incentive is there to continue charitable giving even to the extent that now exists?
Christians pay tithes because they believe it is necessary to contribute to the Community of Christ, as well as those less fortunate. I find it strange that you could look deep down into their souls and find some hope for personal gain when people part with as much as ten percent of their paycheck annually. Unless the tax deductions help them recover more than the cost of the tithe, they are obviously interested in contributing to charity.

You clearly hate people who disagree with you quite a lot. I imagine you have issues. Many of them.
The problem is that this debate keeps being had and evidence continues to be put up which destroys the proposition and conservatives will turn right around and continue arguing "government is inefficient" as if nothing had ever been said. This is simply taken as a priori.
I don't find that.
It is selective and it is insufficient just from examining the numbers as well as the scope of action for private organisations v. government agencies.
The article indicates that most charity work is performed locally. It then speculates, without evidence, that donors would be "averse" to spending money for social improvement elsewhere, which is untested.

I also find it interesting that this monograph makes equivocation between charity and "government entitlements." More on that in just a moment.
To underscore this point, New Orleans was the subject of outside charitable assistance in the weeks and months following the Katrina disaster and private organisations and initiatives continue to operate to do what they can with the resources they've got at their command. The sad fact is that these efforts are nowhere near able to cope with the task of rebuilding a city after a major flood and New Orleans would be in far worse shape than it is even now were it not for the amount of Federal aid it has already received.
I don't deny that the government can often be more efficient.

However, back to entitlement. The consequences of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita offer valuable insight into the pernicious outcomes of a culture that regards government as the rightful source of action when disaster strikes.

The idea that somebody will ultimately come for you is a source of enormous trouble during disaster. The vast majority of Americans indicate that they would refuse to comply with orders given by most public officials regarding evacuation if they perceived that the circumstances did not warrant it; a similarly vast number have absolutely no understanding of what preparedness is, eschew family drills, and believe that help will be only hours away during even the worst catastrophes. Government has, in effect, become God, and as we saw in New Orleans, people are prepared to mete out anger and resentment toward government when their unrealistic expectations are not met. The state government certainly dropped the ball with respect to preparedness for Hurricane Katrina. The national government should have built up the levees years before. But what about some personal responsibility? Evacuation plans? Fuck, avoidance of flood zones? Furthermore, why should we rebuild a city that is clearly only "asking for it," geographically? If I'm going to pay out to help you -- which I don't mind in the first instance -- why shouldn't I also be able to stipulate, "You've got to use this to live somewhere reasonably safe?" Disasters happen; New Orleans put itself on a platter.
A predictable evasion.
You've been talking about personal experience no less than I have.
How exactly does it follow logically that a Calvinist worldview can only be espoused or held by a religious Calvinist? You're drifting into No True Scottsman territory.
Because unless they are Calvinist, it isn't a Calvinist worldview; it's just a worldview. You haven't even proven that Kristol was really interested in making distinctions between who was, or was not, "worth" the cost of care. I've challenged you to substantiate that he wasn't just looking for a quick way out when confronted with the fact that the government does do some kinds of care reasonably well.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

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Axis Kast wrote:Because unless they are Calvinist, it isn't a Calvinist worldview; it's just a worldview.
Wait a minute, Patrick challenges you to explain why it's impossible to hold a mindset associated with a faith even if you aren't a member of that faith, and you simply repeat that it's impossible? That's not how it works. You've stated this as a fact, it's been challenged. Now you have to explain why a mindset which is associated with a particular faith cannot possibly be found in any non-member of that faith.

For example, the dichotomy between good and evil is a very Judeo-Christian worldview, since Judeo-Christianity is based on the dichotomy between God and Satan. However, that doesn't mean a non-Christian can't also subscribe to that Judeo-Christian good/evil black/white worldview .

You are saying that "he subscribes to a Calvinist worldview" is completely synonymous with "he's a Calvinist". This seems absurd to me; they do not seem like identical statements at all.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

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Count Chocula wrote:A look at the numbers in the link above also shows that China's emissions are trending up towards asymptotic, where America's CO2 emissions are where they were in 1990. Which country is more likely to increase CO2, China or America? The numbers favor China. Why should we be a GDP-reducing example, when we're not the exemplars of per capita OR total pollution? Where's the pressure on China?
LOL China's emissions jumped from 2 tons to 4.6 tons while US held steady at 20 tons per capita and you don't see why you should try and reduce your emissions to, say, 15 tons rather than expecting China to go back to 2 tons per capita.
By the way US population is expected to grow 43% by 2050 so even holding steady in per capita consumption will lead to a massive growth in total CO2 emissions.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Kane Starkiller wrote:
Count Chocula wrote:A look at the numbers in the link above also shows that China's emissions are trending up towards asymptotic, where America's CO2 emissions are where they were in 1990. Which country is more likely to increase CO2, China or America? The numbers favor China. Why should we be a GDP-reducing example, when we're not the exemplars of per capita OR total pollution? Where's the pressure on China?
LOL China's emissions jumped from 2 tons to 4.6 tons while US held steady at 20 tons per capita and you don't see why you should try and reduce your emissions to, say, 15 tons rather than expecting China to go back to 2 tons per capita.
By the way US population is expected to grow 43% by 2050 so even holding steady in per capita consumption will lead to a massive growth in total CO2 emissions.
They should go back to 2 tonnes per capita because even at their present level they're producing more than we are in our already reprehensible state (that must be drastically improved quickly, yeah, I know.)

Or drastically reduce their population. Continuing to produce 1/5th of the world's pollution for the sake of industrializing is not acceptable at the moment.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

Post by Samuel »

They should go back to 2 tonnes per capita because even at their present level they're producing more than we are in our already reprehensible state (that must be drastically improved quickly, yeah, I know.)
Is that even physically possible?
Or drastically reduce their population. Continuing to produce 1/5th of the world's pollution for the sake of industrializing is not acceptable at the moment.
China is doing that. One child policy is from China and the managed to make the birth rate drop- as well as making future birth rates drop further due to the skewed sex ratio.
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Re: What Exactly Is the Source of Conservatives' Fear of Obama?

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Yes. There are still more than a billion of them, are there not? If they want to live like us there is a certain amount of pollution that is associated with that lifestyle, and even if they only produce half the waste that we do it will still be a massive environmental catastrophe.

So it has to be done in turns, for lack of a better way to put it. If the rest of the world wants to live like us, then they'll have to wait while we clean up the mess we made getting there. Hopefully they'll have learned from our mistakes.
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