NASA should bypass moon

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NASA should bypass moon

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Well at least that's the recommendation by the independent panel told the White House. They really need to make up their minds.
WASHINGTON – NASA needs to make a major detour on its grand plans to return astronauts to the moon, a special independent panel told the White House Thursday.

Under current plans, NASA has picked the wrong destination with the wrong rocket, the panel's chairman said. A test-flight version of the rocket, the new Ares I, is on a launch pad at Cape Canaveral, awaiting liftoff later this month for its first experimental flight.

Instead, NASA should be concentrating on bigger rockets and new places to explore, the panel members said, as they issued their final 155-page report. The committee, created by the White House in May to look at NASA's troubled exploration, shuttle and space station programs, issued a summary of their findings last month, mostly urging more spending on space.

On Thursday in a news conference, panel Chairman Norman Augustine focused on fresh destinations for NASA, saying that it makes more sense to put astronauts on a nearby asteroid or one of the moons of Mars. He said that could be done sooner than returning to the moon in 15 years as NASA has outlined.

The exploration plans now under fire were pushed by then-President George W. Bush after the 2003 Columbia space shuttle disaster. The moon-Mars plan lacks enough money, thanks to budget diversions, the panel said in a 155-page report. Starting in 2014, NASA needs an extra $3 billion a year if astronauts are going to travel beyond Earth's orbit, the panel said.

The Augustine commission wants NASA to extend the life of the space shuttle program and the International Space Station. Space shuttles are due to retire Oct. 1, 2010, but should keep flying until sometime in 2011 because they won't get all their flights to the space station done by that date. And the space station itself — only now nearing completion — should operate until at least 2020, allowing for more scientific experiments, part of its reason for existence. NASA's timetable calls for plunging it into the ocean in 2015.

However, the overall focus of the panel's report is on where U.S. space exploration should be headed.

The White House will review the panel's analysis "and then ultimately the president will be making the final decision," White House spokesman Nick Shapiro said in an e-mail comment.

The committee outlines eight options. Three of those involve a "flexible path" to explore someplace other than the moon, eventually heading to a Mars landing far in the future. The flexible path suggests no-landing flights around the moon and Mars.

Landing on the moon and then launching back to Earth would require a lot of fuel because of the moon's gravity. Hauling fuel from Earth to the moon and then back costs money.

It would take less fuel to land and return from asteroids or comets that swing by Earth or even the Martian moons, Phobos and Deimos, Augustine said.

Eventually, Augustine said NASA could return to the moon, but as a training stepping stone, not a major destination, as the Bush plan envisioned.

Panel member Ed Crawley, a professor at MIT, said NASA should explore the inner solar system "to interest the American public in new destinations."

He noted that so many new asteroids and comets are being discovered each year that the potential first landing spot "is probably one we don't know about yet."

Augustine said landing astronauts on such a near-Earth object could occur in the early 2020s.

In a news conference to discuss their report, Crawley and Augustine said the current NASA plans were well conceived at the time, in 2005. But when money got diverted and launch dates delayed, NASA's new Ares I rocket began to look like it lost one of its major purposes: ferrying astronauts to the space station.

Crawley said the panel liked the idea of a commercially operated, more basic rocket-taxi to get astronauts into the low-Earth orbit of the space station. If NASA spent about $5 billion to help kick-start the embryonic commercial space business to do the people-carrying, then the space agency could concentrate on heavier rockets that do the real far-off exploring, he said.

Those commercial rockets should be ready in about six years, Crawley said.

NASA is slowly delaying some parts of the old moon program. It's rethinking its future annual $10 million spending on a still-unbuilt lunar lander as it awaits Obama's decision on the Augustine panel recommendations, said NASA spokesman Grey Hautaluoma.

George Washington University space scholar John Logsdon praised the report as "more comprehensive" than NASA's current program.

Syracuse University public policy professor Henry Lambright said he worries about changes that will cause a loss in momentum in NASA's exploration plans. "You've got to make a decision and you've got to stick to it if you are ever going to get to Mars."

Senator Richard Shelby, R-Ala., criticized the idea of using unproven commercial carriers instead of the Ares, which was designed in his state. He said the report was "unsatisfactory and disappointing."


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Re: NASA should bypass moon

Post by Simon_Jester »

We're still in the position we were in with the Apollo Program in 1961-2, if that: the phase where everyone is running around trying to figure out what to build. Once you've started cutting sheet metal for your moon rocket, it's too late to change your mind without spending a ludicrous amount of money and wasting thousands of man-years of time.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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Its true, NASA's rockets really spoil the centre of the village.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

Post by NecronLord »

Go to Phobos and Deimos instead of Mars?

These people are cockteases. Six months there, and six months back, and they're worrying about the fuel cost of a takeoff? It may make sense from a fuel economy perspective, but it would hardly be inspiring to go there, plant a flag in the front garden and take samples of the hedges.

An asteroid mission may have independant merit, though. Of course, it's also part of project Constallation. The professor who says it's time to pick something workable and stick with it is right - time to knuckle down and get to work on Constallation, as far as my (limited) knowledge runs.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Canceling the current moon plans is about a 99% certain chance of completely killing the NASA manned space program for good. If people don’t want to pay to go to the moon then Congress sure as shit wont piss out a much greater sum of money to go anywhere further after having wasted so much so recently.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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I fear your conclusion is accurate.

My comment is simply: What a shower of fuckwads.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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You know what the biggest problem with the manned space program is?

The general public doesn't seen any benefit to the general public.

Now, before you all jump down my throat remember than SD.net is NOT the "general public". I like the notion of manned space flight, m'kay?

But the average person just doesn't see any benefit. At least the subsidy going to beekeepers is useful for generating fruits and vegetables, but what does the average person get from space? Pretty pictures? We've done just fine with unmanned probes. The average person knows damn well they haven't a snowball's chance in hell of going into space him or herself, and they don't see any trickle down benefits. Therefore, they don't want to pay for it. Space is the playground of a very few elite scientists/explorers and the super-rich who can pay $40 million for a ticket to the space station. Particularly in these times, with the middle class evaporating, it's damn hard to convince people that manned spaceflight is in their interest.

The populace is more than willing to spend trillions if they feel it will benefit them somehow. You want manned spaceflight? Convince Joe Sixpack he gets something for it. Not an abstract "vital to the future of our species!" but something HE gets in his own lifetime.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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Broomstick wrote:You know what the biggest problem with the manned space program is?

The general public doesn't seen any benefit to the general public.

Now, before you all jump down my throat remember than SD.net is NOT the "general public". I like the notion of manned space flight, m'kay?

But the average person just doesn't see any benefit. At least the subsidy going to beekeepers is useful for generating fruits and vegetables, but what does the average person get from space? Pretty pictures? We've done just fine with unmanned probes. The average person knows damn well they haven't a snowball's chance in hell of going into space him or herself, and they don't see any trickle down benefits. Therefore, they don't want to pay for it. Space is the playground of a very few elite scientists/explorers and the super-rich who can pay $40 million for a ticket to the space station. Particularly in these times, with the middle class evaporating, it's damn hard to convince people that manned spaceflight is in their interest.

The populace is more than willing to spend trillions if they feel it will benefit them somehow. You want manned spaceflight? Convince Joe Sixpack he gets something for it. Not an abstract "vital to the future of our species!" but something HE gets in his own lifetime.
As far as that goes - where is the fearmongering?
Seriously, i am surprised that i do not hear "China will do it first" and other stuff all over the place.

Overall, this just shows that the general public really has no sense for long-term goals. Which is not only sabotaging the space programm, but also other projects such as colliders (LHC and the like), fusion programms and similar things.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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The general public doesn't mind long term goals per se. They just can't understand (and not without reason) what practical benefits things like the LHC bring them.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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Maybe the Russians can scare us back into doing space exploration?
Russian space chief proposes nuclear spaceship

By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV (AP) – 9 hours ago

MOSCOW — Russia's space agency is planning to build a new spaceship with a nuclear engine, its chief said Wednesday.

Anatoly Perminov told a government meeting Wednesday that the preliminary design could be ready by 2012. He said it will then take nine more years and 17 billion rubles ($600 million, 400 million euros) to build the ship.

"The implementation of this project will allow us to reach a new technological level surpassing foreign developments," Perminov told a meeting which focused on communications and space technologies.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev urged the Cabinet to consider providing the necessary funding.

"It's a very serious project," Medvedev said. "We need to find the money."

Perminov's ambitious statement contrasted with the current state of the Russian space program, and sounded more like a plea for extra government funds than a detailed proposal.

Russia is using 40-year old Soyuz booster rockets and capsules to send crews to the International Space Station. Development of a replacement rocket and a prospective spaceship with a conventional propellant has dragged on with no end in sight.

Perminov described the proposed spaceship as a "unique breakthrough project," but offered few details.

He said that the ship will have a megawatt-class nuclear reactor, as opposed to small nuclear reactors that powered Soviet satellites. The Cold-War era Soviet spy satellites had reactors which produced just a few kilowatts of power and had a lifespan of just about a year.

Perminov didn't say what the new spaceship will be used for.

He and other officials have said that Russia needs a new spaceship to replace the old Soyuz for missions in Earth orbit, but they only have talked about a ship powered by a conventional rocket fuel so far.

Russian space agency also has mulled over prospective future missions to the moon and Mars, but hasn't yet set a specific time frame yet.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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Broomstick wrote:You know what the biggest problem with the manned space program is?

The general public doesn't seen any benefit to the general public.

Now, before you all jump down my throat remember than SD.net is NOT the "general public". I like the notion of manned space flight, m'kay?

But the average person just doesn't see any benefit. At least the subsidy going to beekeepers is useful for generating fruits and vegetables, but what does the average person get from space? Pretty pictures? We've done just fine with unmanned probes. The average person knows damn well they haven't a snowball's chance in hell of going into space him or herself, and they don't see any trickle down benefits. Therefore, they don't want to pay for it. Space is the playground of a very few elite scientists/explorers and the super-rich who can pay $40 million for a ticket to the space station. Particularly in these times, with the middle class evaporating, it's damn hard to convince people that manned spaceflight is in their interest.

The populace is more than willing to spend trillions if they feel it will benefit them somehow. You want manned spaceflight? Convince Joe Sixpack he gets something for it. Not an abstract "vital to the future of our species!" but something HE gets in his own lifetime.
So the essential problem is the ignorance of the average citizen. Because one can easily point out quite a few potential benefits within a typical human lifetime.

I find it amusing in a way that the biggest obstacle is probably not scientific, technological, political, or financial, but rather a matter of public opinion. We want people on Mars, then NASA needs to hire a proper advertising campaign.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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The Romulan Republic wrote:So the essential problem is the ignorance of the average citizen. Because one can easily point out quite a few potential benefits within a typical human lifetime.
What are they, and how likely are they to become reality? The US public has been told for 40 years that there will be big payoffs to space exploration and Joe Sixpack doesn't see it. Sure, there have been payoffs, but the public doesn't associate benefit XYZ with the space program.

The payoffs have to be something fairly direct. The average person simply doesn't believe they will ever get into space, for example (and under our current system that is, in fact, true - only a very, very few will ever go into space) so why pay for someone else to do so? We've been hearing for decades about the "potential" for things like manufacturing in space, but it hasn't happened.

The biggest payoffs that the public is aware of have been in artificial satellites: weather prediction, television transmission, and GPS. The public doesn't have a problem with those, because they reap clear benefits from them. But none of them require people to got into space.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

Post by Coyote »

In space, no one can hear you speaking English. Because the future of space will be written probably in Mandarin, or if not that, then Russian or possibly Hindi.

Joe Sixpack is a dumbass; remember these are the voters going to fucking Teabag Parties and demanding warning labels in science textbooks in case Jesus cries. Fuck 'em. If the US loses its edge in space, so be it; may the best country win. When a Chinese flag is hoisted over Mars, the average American voter will shrug and switch to "Dancing With the Stars".

Americans these days don't give a flying fuck. Space, to them, "wastes eleventy skillion dollars" every time something gets launched-- unless it gets them better TV, phones, or Twitter service. They all vote, and their Congressmen and Senators listen. The command economy governments have an edge-- some Politburo says "thou shalt go to space chop-chop, or that shalt see the inside of a gulag in a week" and scientists get cracking.

More people followed Miley Cyrus's exit from Twitter than gave a fuck about the Ares-I liftoff yesterday.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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I think more to the point, command economies like China still do things that may not have a direct benefit other than the greater glory of the State. I was telling one of my students Tuesday that I'll bet that Chinese astronauts will be the first on Mars, entirely so they can get bragging rights on truly making it a Red Planet. The United States has no such impetus.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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I will have to disagree with the sentiment in this thread. What benifit is there to going beyond Earth orbit ? That is where the money is. People pay for satelite based communications, pictures, weather data etc. In contrast landing astronauts on mars or moon again achieves nothing. Lets be realistic. We do not have the technology for self sustained settlements in space yet. Astronauts planting flags make for feel good moments on TV but they are not really bringing us any tangible benifits. I believe exploration of space by humans will really take off only after it is possible to profit from it.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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Sarevok wrote:I will have to disagree with the sentiment in this thread. What benifit is there to going beyond Earth orbit ? That is where the money is. People pay for satelite based communications, pictures, weather data etc. In contrast landing astronauts on mars or moon again achieves nothing. Lets be realistic. We do not have the technology for self sustained settlements in space yet. Astronauts planting flags make for feel good moments on TV but they are not really bringing us any tangible benefits. I believe exploration of space by humans will really take off only after it is possible to profit from it.
There are clear benefits to eventually colonizing the solar system (whether there are benefits to going past that within the limits of currently understood physics and technology is debatable) but the steps towards doing that are expensive and yield no short term benefits for whoever ends up footing the bill. To eventually get those massive benefits someone has to be out there pushing the edge, inventing the technology and techniques needed to get people and/or machines out there, mapping out the solar system etc. Because the short term costs are so high and the benefits a ways down the line this is basically the textbook definition of a market failure and the ideal sort of role for governments to step into.

Now, since you seem skeptical about the benefits:

1) Resources. Just in one example, there's enough metal kicking around in the asteroid belt to change the status of quite a few elements from 'rare' to 'we have so much of this shit we don't know what to do with it all'
2) Production. We've barely scratched the surface on Zero G manufacturing. There's a whole gamut of new techniques to discover and I can't even begin to speculate on the sort of things that could be invented with Zero G production environments available. And while we could do this with robots and stay in orbit it's a lot easier to run experiments in person and it gets pretty expensive to make things when all the raw materials need to be sent up into space first. Much easier to be able to go out into the asteroid belt and mine whatever you need.
3) Not getting sploded by an asteroid. It's a lot easier to deflect planet killers when you're already up there...
4) Feeding the masses. The people who talk about shunting excess population off into space are, barring some major technological revolutions coming completely as a surprise, fucking crazy. It's just not practical. Any offworld colonies would start with a small population and grow from there. But there's actually plenty of space on Earth, especially if we concentrate more heavily into urban areas. How then can space help use here? Quite simply actually. Plants need 3 things to grow: Organic compounds, Sunlight and C02. The second is quite abundant in orbit and we can get the other two from comets and/or asteroids. Since we can get everything we need at the top of our gravity well as long as the infrastructure is already there it will be cheap to grow as much food as our population needs up there and drop it down wherever we need it down here. We could eliminate terrestrial farming entirely, concentrate our entire population into a few dense cities and let the rest of the planet revert to a natural state. This positive knock-on effects from this are too numerous to list but I'm sure you can think of a few.

Are the above enough to convince you of the value of going beyond orbit or would you like more reasons/clarification?
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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Landing on a distant world like Mars or trying to establish a lunar base is not the right way to get started. The biggest challenge is reaching space economically. That has to be solved right here on Earth. Then there is the fact that everyone talks about making use of resources in space, mining asteroids, extracting water from moon etc. But no one has done any of these things so permanent bases in space is just a untried and untested paper project now. We need to actually pause ourselves for a moment and progress step by step. The Apollo mission was a great success but it was a oneshot effort. A rush to Mars right now would be a repeat of Apollo again. Some people would land and after their return there would be little impetus for follow up missions.

A mars mission in my opinion should be the final reward of a long term planned expansion into space. It should be the end result instead of the means to an end.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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While the public may not fund "lets go to the moon, Again, before everyone else does it" They might see the beenfit of encoruaging the private space industry. thats something THEY might be able to participate. if NASA's long term goal is legitimate scientific explanation, with the component of boosting the private space industry, I find that very appealing. The more infrastruccture we develop the less expensive large scale endeavors become and rather than placing that developement squarely on tax payers, and practiced only by the best of the best, lets make space a little more accessible.

We would probably have to accept a significantly higher mortality rate though if corporations get involved, and put up with shady business dealings in Spaaaaacce. Can you imagine an employee gangabang scandal on Enron's Space Station?

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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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Well private industry has already been involved in space related activities for long time. Even many satelites commisioned by nations are regularly built by local or foreign companies. Its just that a meteorlogy or telecommunications satelite with an alphabet soup name and a consortium behind it is not sexy. Private industry does not need any personnel in space at the moment. So barring stunts like Rutans Spaceshipone the private side of space is going to remain dull commercial rocket launches.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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Sarevok wrote:So barring stunts like Rutans Spaceshipone the private side of space is going to remain dull commercial rocket launches.
Don't forget BA's inflatable space station/craft.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

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Thing is, Rutan figured out that "space tourism" is the only current way for people in space to break even, much less profit.

And yes, if we move to private endeavors the death rate will go up. If we do more with people in space with any form of funding or method of doing things the number of deaths will go up. Exploring new territory is risky, and that's on top of the usual risks of things like heavy construction, and heavy construction will be necessary to building stations and colonies. There's no way to go into space without having people die in space simply because we're fragile, mortal beings.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

Post by Mayabird »

Also, on private space exploration - you know what happened to the vast majority of investors of terrestrial expeditions back in the day? They lost their money. All of it. Sure, they might have traveled to a land full of riches, except the riches were inaccessible, or surrounded by dangers that killed off their expeditions, and it's really hard for a private colony to turn a profit unless there are natives with riches to exploit and extract. Exploration is expensive, and who's going to be ponying up all the cash? There are only so many eccentric rich people who don't mind blowing their fortunes on it.

And this is before we get to people dying. This is just getting past the planning stages right now. Investors who actually care about making a buck don't fund it because they know from history and their voodoo economics stuff that they won't get their money back. Oh sure, people in the future will probably profit a billion times more off it, but it won't be them, so why should they care?
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

Post by darthdavid »

Mayabird wrote:Also, on private space exploration - you know what happened to the vast majority of investors of terrestrial expeditions back in the day? They lost their money. All of it. Sure, they might have traveled to a land full of riches, except the riches were inaccessible, or surrounded by dangers that killed off their expeditions, and it's really hard for a private colony to turn a profit unless there are natives with riches to exploit and extract. Exploration is expensive, and who's going to be ponying up all the cash? There are only so many eccentric rich people who don't mind blowing their fortunes on it.

And this is before we get to people dying. This is just getting past the planning stages right now. Investors who actually care about making a buck don't fund it because they know from history and their voodoo economics stuff that they won't get their money back. Oh sure, people in the future will probably profit a billion times more off it, but it won't be them, so why should they care?
Which is, like I said, the dictionary definition of a market failure.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

Post by Simon_Jester »

darthdavid wrote:1) Resources. Just in one example, there's enough metal kicking around in the asteroid belt to change the status of quite a few elements from 'rare' to 'we have so much of this shit we don't know what to do with it all'
Yes, but (and this is a general objection) will it pay? Asteroid mining is a classic feature of science fiction, but that doesn't make it economical, especially in a world without technomagic like reactionless drives and tractor beams.

I'm not saying it won't pay, but the calculation is nontrivial. So the fact that the metal physically exists does not mean that its existence is profitable. That goes double for space farming; hauling nutrients around the solar system on reaction drives to convert them into food does not sound profitable to me on an a priori basis.

I can't prove that, but I'd dearly love to see math that proves it would work.
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Re: NASA should bypass moon

Post by Broomstick »

darthdavid wrote:We could eliminate terrestrial farming entirely, concentrate our entire population into a few dense cities and let the rest of the planet revert to a natural state. This positive knock-on effects from this are too numerous to list but I'm sure you can think of a few.
What if I don't want to live in a dense, urban environment?

Seriously - while people do live more and more in cities quite a few think having at least the option to live outside the urban environment is worthwhile. That's part of the problem with these futuristic scenarios - they seem to hammer everyone into one mold. You're allowed to dream, but only if you have the properly approved dreams. And you wonder why some don't buy into your future?

OK, you probably didn't mean it quite that exclusively, but it comes off that way. Likewise, dreams of extra-terrestrial colonies tend to neglect what's going to happen to those left on Earth - and even Joe Sixpack can figure out he's likely to be one of the ones left behind, as will his children. What's in it for them? You claim a rosy future with everyone living in cities... but that leaves out those who have no desire to live in cities.
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