Cell-phone users can't even WALK well

[Broomstick]

I'm surprised it's taken this long. It's been banned across all states here for quite a few years; but like speeding, people are still doing it and getting caught. Who the hell doesn't have a handsfree option on their phone these days?

Handsfree DOES NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM. The problem is that the conversation itself is what is distracting. Your attention is not on what's around you, it's on the discussion you're having.

[Stark]

Actually, I remember hearing transport industry guys talk about that - that it's not the action of holding a phone or CB microphone, it's the very concept of two-way communication while driving. This is the reason behind the 'don't talk to bus driver' signs in Brisbane according to decisionmakers.

[Terralthra]

This should not be much of a surprise to anyone with even a cursory understanding of psychology. Simons and Chabris's experiment regarding inattentional blindness is the archetype here: participants were asked to watch a video of players in white and black t-shirts passing a basketball around and count an arbitrary thing: passes made by white-wearing players, passes total, etc. During the middle of the video, a person dressed in a head-to-toe gorilla suit walked right through the middle of the group of players, from one side of the screen to the other. One of the videos, the gorilla even paused in the middle and stereotypically beat its chest. After watching, the participants were asked to report if they saw anything unusual. 50% reported nothing, and denied seeing a gorilla when asked specifically. (study, PDF)

Simons later did the "lost tourist" experiment, with similarly staggering results. People on the street were approached by one of the study's collaborators, holding a map and asking for directions. While the unwitting participant was thinking of and giving directions, workmen would carry a large object between the participant and the collaborator. The collaborator would be replaced behind this cover with another collaborator varying widely in appearance and demeanor, but holding the same map. Again, at least 50% of the participants did not notice. (study, PDF)

The easy question to ask is, does talking on a cell phone take as much or more concentration as counting basketball passes or giving directions in your normal locale? If yes, then it demands enough concentration to seriously detract from awareness.

[Broomstick]

Actually, I remember hearing transport industry guys talk about that - that it's not the action of holding a phone or CB microphone, it's the very concept of two-way communication while driving. This is the reason behind the 'don't talk to bus driver' signs in Brisbane according to decisionmakers.

Correct - you see "do not talk to operator" signs on busses and trains here in the US, too.

An exception to this would be communications directly related to the operation being performed. For example, aircraft pilots routinely engage in two-way communications without dire consequences. When cellphones first came out it was puzzling why pilots who could handle the complexities of two-way talking while simultaneously flying an airplane had trouble driving while talking on a cellphone. Well, when flying radio communication is restricted to JUST talking about flying, in a very stylized format. Thus, when approaching an airport a pilot isn't yakking about his/her grocery list and domestic squabbles, said pilot is saying "I'm here, I'm going there" and perhaps adding some additional information directly related to the actual flying he/she is doing at that point in time. Even so - pilots are trained to put actually flying and navigating ahead of the radio, expressed as "Aviate, navigate, and communicate in that order".

So a trucker reporting his/her location on a route, or a police officer stating "I'm going here" on a radio is a far different proposition than the average cellphone user with a conversation unrelated to driving/walking/nosepicking.

[The Yosemite Bear]

listening to this, I think I will just sit down while using my celly from now on.

[Death from the Sea]

We have laws against using a cell phone when driving in Minnesota - people still do it anyhow.

Is the enforcement lax? Are the penalties weak? Or is it both?

Frankly, police are terribly lax on all manner of driving violations. How many people do you see every day, flagrantly violating traffic rules left and right with no consequence at all? The police need more unmarked cars, and more supervisory instructions to specifically nail things like bad lane changes, driving on the shoulder, and tailgating; I met a cop a while ago who said that his blood pressure goes through the roof when he's off-duty because people drive totally differently when there's no cop cars around, but he can't pull them over.

when police are lax on enforcement of traffic violations that are small, such as no turn signal to change lanes or turn or things of that nature (when it does not cause a crash or almost cause one) it is not 100% bad. Enforcing those minor traffic violations would breed alot of bad blood between the police and citizenry unnecessarily. People tend to not realize when they do break such minor traffic laws and/or refuse to accept they did or refuse to acknowledge they did. This leads to people believing the police are writing bogus tickets. If there is one thing that I can say with 100% truth that there is no need to write bogus tickets because people violate more laws than they even begin to realize on their trip to the corner store.

anyway to get to my point, if there is a problem with a certain law being broken that is not usually enforced, then yes there should be an increase in enforcement of that until it is no longer a problem for that area. New laws are usually given a small grace period to get used to it and then heavily enforced for a time and then over time it becomes lax. Not all officers have the time to enforce all traffic laws at all times. And to be honest alot of the time we don't want to because then we have to either ruin someones day or possibly deal with rude people or come into contact with dangerous people and not know it. Police do get busy with calls for service and so unless it is slow, I know our department depends largely on STEP and motorcycle units to be the heavy traffic enforcement units.

[Ryan Thunder]

Heavier use of buses instead of cars would solve alot of these problems, I think.

[Broomstick]

Personally, I am quite happy to let someone else do the driving, be it train, bus, or carpooling (and yes, I do carpool to my current work whenever possible). I wish more people in my country would be more open to the idea, as it means fewer cars and less crowding on the roads, you save money on gas and wear and tear on vehicles, and you can do something else with that commuting time while you ride.

There are times when I have used a cellphone while driving - the two most recent occasions were to report serious accidents on the freeway during a time it wasn't safe to stop. Then again, I made the call quickly, stuck to one topic, and got it done. My preference would have been to have a passenger call it in, but I was driving solo at the time. To potentially save a life is a valid reason to make an emergency call. To chat is not. Even then, if I had thought making the call would be hazardous to me I would have left it for one of the other people on the road to report it.

[Darth Wong]

Personally, I am quite happy to let someone else do the driving, be it train, bus, or carpooling (and yes, I do carpool to my current work whenever possible). I wish more people in my country would be more open to the idea, as it means fewer cars and less crowding on the roads, you save money on gas and wear and tear on vehicles, and you can do something else with that commuting time while you ride.

I actually get carsick in the passenger seat, whereas I feel fine in the driver's seat. I know, that sounds weird, like it's a made-up excuse to always drive. But it's true.

[Stuart]

I actually get carsick in the passenger seat, whereas I feel fine in the driver's seat. I know, that sounds weird, like it's a made-up excuse to always drive. But it's true.

You're not unique, some cars are notorious for making the passenger car-sick while the driver remains unaffected. The second-generation Dodge Stratos was one where the problem was bad enough to hurt sales. The intriguing thing is that it isn't psychosomatic (yes, we did a study on this in 2002). Put people in different cars and ask them to measure car sickness and the driver/passenger differential was constant for a given model. One thing we did note was that the driver/passenger differential was a lot less for European cars than it was for American vehicles. This might suggest that the working of the car suspension has something to do with it, European cars usually have much harder suspensions than American.

I think the problem with cell phones in cars is that when speaking on a cellphone, one's mind is out of the car. When talking to a passenger, one's mind is still in teh car but using a cellphone that isn't the case. My car has a built-in hands-free cellphone and I really dislike using it for that reason.

[Darth Wong]

It's nice to know I'm not the only one! I wonder if it's not the left-right balance of the car at all, but rather, that certain cars simply tend to induce more car-sickness, and the act of driving focuses your attention in a way that mitigates the effect. That would explain why certain cars have a greater left/right discrepancy than others.

[Broomstick]

Personally, I am quite happy to let someone else do the driving, be it train, bus, or carpooling (and yes, I do carpool to my current work whenever possible). I wish more people in my country would be more open to the idea, as it means fewer cars and less crowding on the roads, you save money on gas and wear and tear on vehicles, and you can do something else with that commuting time while you ride.

I actually get carsick in the passenger seat, whereas I feel fine in the driver's seat. I know, that sounds weird, like it's a made-up excuse to always drive. But it's true.

No, it's not weird at all. In fact, it's well known that being in charge of the vehicle makes you far less likely to be motion sick than riding as a passenger. That applies not only to cars but boats and airplanes as well. There are theories as to why that is so, but the truth is no one is 100% sure why it works that way, but it does.

So keep in mind, Mike, that if ever you and I are up in a small airplane and you start getting airsick I might hand it over to you.

No, seriously, there have been times I've let a passenger handle the controls. It's under circumstances I deem safe and where it would be pretty hard for the person to fuck anything up. Mild airsickness I might try it, but for real vomiting nuh-uh. I haven't had anyone throw up while I'm flying, but I carry barf bags just in case. But student pilots complaining of queasiness are, as much as safety allows, put in charge of the controls because it almost always takes care of the airsickness. I've had two instructors who were more prone to airsickness than me (I seem virtually immune) and it's hard on them if it happens when they're teaching maneuvers. One of them I stopped flying with (motherfucker fell asleep during a lesson!) but the other did, on one occasion, take the controls until he got his stomach under control again.

[Darth Wong]

So keep in mind, Mike, that if ever you and I are up in a small airplane and you start getting airsick I might hand it over to you.

Let's just hope those PC "Flight Sim" games are actually reasonably accurate, then

[Themightytom]

So keep in mind, Mike, that if ever you and I are up in a small airplane and you start getting airsick I might hand it over to you.

No, seriously, there have been times I've let a passenger handle the controls. It's under circumstances I deem safe and where it would be pretty hard for the person to fuck anything up. Mild airsickness I might try it, but for real vomiting nuh-uh. I haven't had anyone throw up while I'm flying, but I carry barf bags just in case. But student pilots complaining of queasiness are, as much as safety allows, put in charge of the controls because it almost always takes care of the airsickness. I've had two instructors who were more prone to airsickness than me (I seem virtually immune) and it's hard on them if it happens when they're teaching maneuvers. One of them I stopped flying with (motherfucker fell asleep during a lesson!) but the other did, on one occasion, take the controls until he got his stomach under control again.

Don't pilots use two way communication too? Does it affect your flying or is it a nonissue because there isn't as much to notice up there?

[General Zod]

So keep in mind, Mike, that if ever you and I are up in a small airplane and you start getting airsick I might hand it over to you.

No, seriously, there have been times I've let a passenger handle the controls. It's under circumstances I deem safe and where it would be pretty hard for the person to fuck anything up. Mild airsickness I might try it, but for real vomiting nuh-uh. I haven't had anyone throw up while I'm flying, but I carry barf bags just in case. But student pilots complaining of queasiness are, as much as safety allows, put in charge of the controls because it almost always takes care of the airsickness. I've had two instructors who were more prone to airsickness than me (I seem virtually immune) and it's hard on them if it happens when they're teaching maneuvers. One of them I stopped flying with (motherfucker fell asleep during a lesson!) but the other did, on one occasion, take the controls until he got his stomach under control again.

Don't pilots use two way communication too? Does it affect your flying or is it a nonissue because there isn't as much to notice up there?

Scroll up?

Well, when flying radio communication is restricted to JUST talking about flying, in a very stylized format. Thus, when approaching an airport a pilot isn't yakking about his/her grocery list and domestic squabbles, said pilot is saying "I'm here, I'm going there" and perhaps adding some additional information directly related to the actual flying he/she is doing at that point in time. Even so - pilots are trained to put actually flying and navigating ahead of the radio, expressed as "Aviate, navigate, and communicate in that order".

[aerius]

I actually get carsick in the passenger seat, whereas I feel fine in the driver's seat. I know, that sounds weird, like it's a made-up excuse to always drive. But it's true.

I just fall asleep. Put me in the passenger seat, drive around for half an hour on the highway and I'm snoring away till the car stops. It doesn't matter what time of day it is, I just can't stay awake in a car when I'm not driving.

The only car where I haven't fallen in the passenger seat is the Mazda MX-5, but that's because the car's too damn small and my knees & legs keep bashing against the door and the underside of the glovebox.

[Broomstick]

So keep in mind, Mike, that if ever you and I are up in a small airplane and you start getting airsick I might hand it over to you.

Let's just hope those PC "Flight Sim" games are actually reasonably accurate, then

Actually, the MicroSoft Flight Simulator is surprisingly accurate IF you use real-world physics settings and don't cheat. Although the time on them doesn't count officially with the FAA it's quite common for flight instructors to use it to rehearse procedures or flights with students prior to actually spending time in the airplane. Not as good as a full motion simulator, but a hell of a lot cheaper per hour. Pilots not getting formal lessons will also use it to rehearse flight plans and procedures, particularly around busy airports they aren't very familiar with flying into and out of. Even better if you have a joystick or yoke controller, but it will give you a reasonably good understanding of how stuff works in the cockpit and what the controls do.

The only thing that seems to consistently bother "real pilots" about MS FlightSim is that none of us can land an airplane in it! I've landed safely literally thousands of times in real life, I think I only landed once in MS FS without crashing. We're not quite sure why that is so - it may have something to do with MS FS giving just visual (maybe a little aural) feedback whereas in real life you've got more sensory input to go by and the lack throws us off.

If a Flight Sim pilot decides to take real world flying lessons sometimes the Sim experience can be helpful. On the other hand, sometimes the Sim has allowed bad habits to form. It's a bit of a mixed bag. But yes, at least some Flight Sim programs can teach you something about flying in the real world.

RealFlight is a flight simulator for remote control aircraft which is excellent for training purposes. Our local RC flying clubs are using it and we've cut down on crashes an amazing amount, especially among beginning students. It has an "in cockpit" viewpoint that is recommended for full size aircraft pilots to use during transition to remote control that is quite fun. Then there's the add-on package that lets you fly the Valles Marineris on Mars...

[Ryan Thunder]

Hah. Interestingly I have no trouble landing the planes (that I can remember, anyway. Its been a while), but I can't ever get a helicopter off the ground. Ever. It always flips over on me!

[Broomstick]

I've only ever flown RC helicopters. They're tricky little bastards, it's quite different than flying airplanes.

Back when I had money "Helicopter lesson" was on my list of things to do in full size aviation. Maybe one day I'll have the money to pursue it.

[Alferd Packer]

It's nice to know I'm not the only one! I wonder if it's not the left-right balance of the car at all, but rather, that certain cars simply tend to induce more car-sickness, and the act of driving focuses your attention in a way that mitigates the effect. That would explain why certain cars have a greater left/right discrepancy than others.

Maybe it has something to do with how you perceive the road as a driver? As a passenger, your perspective is shifted to the edge of the road, skewing the perceived motion of the scenery to your left and to your right. As a driver, since you're positioned closer the center of the road, the scenery would be passing at a more uniform rate.

It doesn't sound really likely, but aside from not controlling the vehicle, that's really he only difference I can think of between the driver and passenger's view.

[Spyder]

Personally, I am quite happy to let someone else do the driving, be it train, bus, or carpooling (and yes, I do carpool to my current work whenever possible). I wish more people in my country would be more open to the idea, as it means fewer cars and less crowding on the roads, you save money on gas and wear and tear on vehicles, and you can do something else with that commuting time while you ride.

I actually get carsick in the passenger seat, whereas I feel fine in the driver's seat. I know, that sounds weird, like it's a made-up excuse to always drive. But it's true.

You'll probably notice the difference being driven by someone that's used to having passengers when compared to someone that normally drives by themselves. There's a subtle art to turning that tends to slip when there's no one in the passenger seat.

[phongn]

It's nice to know I'm not the only one! I wonder if it's not the left-right balance of the car at all, but rather, that certain cars simply tend to induce more car-sickness, and the act of driving focuses your attention in a way that mitigates the effect. That would explain why certain cars have a greater left/right discrepancy than others.

I've wondered if a driver's attention to the road is subconsciously informing his sense of balance what's about to happen. There are no cues for passengers: to tie into Stuart's observation, a harder-suspension vehicle might couple the sense of movement more to the passenger versus a softer, more isolating one.

[Bounty]

It's nice to know I'm not the only one! I wonder if it's not the left-right balance of the car at all, but rather, that certain cars simply tend to induce more car-sickness, and the act of driving focuses your attention in a way that mitigates the effect. That would explain why certain cars have a greater left/right discrepancy than others.

I've wondered if a driver's attention to the road is subconsciously informing his sense of balance what's about to happen. There are no cues for passengers: to tie into Stuart's observation, a harder-suspension vehicle might couple the sense of movement more to the passenger versus a softer, more isolating one.

That's precisely what's happening. Car sickness comes about when the positional information your eyes send doesn't match up with the information from your other balance organs, so matching them up artificially - by, say, following the horizon with your eyes and turning your head with the motion of the car, like a driver does - is one of the classic tricks to ease the symptoms.

[Phantasee]

We use 2-way radios in our work as well, because the CB radios just don't have the range required, whether we're in the City or on the highway. We have a lot of idle chatter, particularly in the City, but you'll never see a problem with someone talking about the job (getting directions, getting an extra pair of eyes while a truck is dumping, warning others of hazards), but there have been a few incidents where a driver was chatting away about something stupid and they went and hit something or in one case, dropped a box as it was raising to dump. On the highway, the idle chatter helps keep us awake (long straight, safe roads are prone to induce sleep as I'm sure you know), but if the conversation gets too intense, you'll see trucks start hitting the rumble strips every once in a while.

It's not an issue of hand-held vs hands-free, it's the topic of conversation. I talk on the phone regularly while driving, whether it's car or truck, but I'm almost always talking about what I'm doing, or where I'm going or need to go. If I'm dumping, I tell the person to call me back, or just not answer. The few times I've chatted on the phone while driving were enough for me to realize I can't do both. So Broomstick's example applies to driving as well, in my experience.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

It's nice to know I'm not the only one! I wonder if it's not the left-right balance of the car at all, but rather, that certain cars simply tend to induce more car-sickness, and the act of driving focuses your attention in a way that mitigates the effect. That would explain why certain cars have a greater left/right discrepancy than others.

I've wondered if a driver's attention to the road is subconsciously informing his sense of balance what's about to happen. There are no cues for passengers: to tie into Stuart's observation, a harder-suspension vehicle might couple the sense of movement more to the passenger versus a softer, more isolating one.

That's precisely what's happening. Car sickness comes about when the positional information your eyes send doesn't match up with the information from your other balance organs, so matching them up artificially - by, say, following the horizon with your eyes and turning your head with the motion of the car, like a driver does - is one of the classic tricks to ease the symptoms.

An easy intuitive way of observing this phenomenon, I've found, is not only the difference between driver and passenger, but even worse, between shotgun and backseats. When I ride shotgun I still have a good view of both the driver's operations and the movement of what's ahead of me (and I never get carsick riding shotgun, even on 10-hour drives), but the further back I am in the vehicle the worse my car sickness becomes. In the backseats you a very poor point of reference for the car's position and momentum, and it gets that much worse.