Who CAN the Federation Ground Troops beat?

[Admiral Piett]

Using trycorders against a TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED enemy is stupid because it means giving away position.But as far as I know a Napoleonic era army does not have the capability to detect trycorder emissions.
Phaser range.
I reiterate that we cannot state that the phaser maximum range is limited to few tens of meters.In Insurrection Worf was facing a group of enemy soldiers CLUSTERED TOGETHER.I do not have any military training but on the basis of common sense I think that eliminating them with single shot from a grenade launcher was a better idea than shooting at each single of them with the phaser rifle,wich would have given them enough time to return fire.So this does not confirm the thesis of the phaser rifle being ineffective at only few tens of meters away

[Admiral Piett]

I am not saying that the phaser rifle seen in First Contact is a long range weapon.What I am saying is that it cannot be hopelessy outranged by a Napoleonic era rifle or musket.It would not make sense for a rifle to be so short ranged and we do not have any real evidence(as far as I know) that suggests a maximum range of few tens of meters.100-150 meters should be within its capabilities.
About the federation "army" I do not think that they really have one.The troops we see are probably starfleet personnel trained mainly for ground combat.Probably they depend from the security department of starfleet.
I think that they have never deployed more than some hundreds of ground
troops and do not have large infantry units.

[Pablo Sanchez]

rifles are only as accurate as sighting along the barrell allows and humans are too imprecise without reference to be accurate out to more than 100-200m.

I think that's too generous, unless the federation trooper is a trick-shooting master. Firing blind without sights is only good out to 50 meters, and the Phaser pistols can't even be sighted along the barrel, shotgun style. That would be very, very random.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The assault rifle has a scope right? Do any other fed guns have one?

[Howedar]

Maybe the *giggle* *snort* compression rifle.

[Pablo Sanchez]

The assault rifle has a scope right? Do any other fed guns have one?

The Assault Rifle has a telecopic sight. Their other ground weapons have no sighting devices at all, unless that silly-ass panel on the Type III is really a holographic sight or whatever Howedar thinks it is. Their weapon design is simply awful, but Trekkies seem to think that their magical wide beam setting is a magic solve-all.

[Admiral Piett]

Note that that when I say that the federation phaser rifle should have a range comparable to that of a napoleonic era musket I am referring to the assault rifle seen in the film first contact,which has a sight and appear to be designed for long (relatively speaking) range combat,and not to the infamous type three phaser rifle.The type three phaser rifle,the standard rifle in the TNG era, is obviously a short range weapon,few tens of meters at the best, although I believe that the beam itself should be still lethal several hundreds of meters away,if one is is enough unlucky to be on its path.

[Skelron]

Of course the feds would lose to the British Army in the Napolonic era they had Sharpe... :Someone motions him to one side, Sharpe never actually existed he was a fictional character...:

[Howedar]

The assault rifle has a scope right? Do any other fed guns have one?

The Assault Rifle has a telecopic sight. Their other ground weapons have no sighting devices at all, unless that silly-ass panel on the Type III is really a holographic sight or whatever Howedar thinks it is. Their weapon design is simply awful, but Trekkies seem to think that their magical wide beam setting is a magic solve-all.

That sounds disturbingly like you suggesting I'm a Trekkie...

[Darth Yoshi]

I am not saying that the phaser rifle seen in First Contact is a long range weapon.What I am saying is that it cannot be hopelessy outranged by a Napoleonic era rifle or musket.It would not make sense for a rifle to be so short ranged and we do not have any real evidence(as far as I know) that suggests a maximum range of few tens of meters.100-150 meters should be within its capabilities.
About the federation "army" I do not think that they really have one.The troops we see are probably starfleet personnel trained mainly for ground combat.Probably they depend from the security department of starfleet.
I think that they have never deployed more than some hundreds of ground
troops and do not have large infantry units.

100-150m probably _is_ in a phaser rifles capabilities, but only technologically. A gun is only as good as the person who shoots it, and Feddies have _deplorable_ aim, especially since phasers are ergonomic nightmares. Realistically, a few dozen meters would be exceptional.

[CmdrWilkens]

Note that that when I say that the federation phaser rifle should have a range comparable to that of a napoleonic era musket I am referring to the assault rifle seen in the film first contact,which has a sight and appear to be designed for long (relatively speaking) range combat,and not to the infamous type three phaser rifle.The type three phaser rifle,the standard rifle in the TNG era, is obviously a short range weapon,few tens of meters at the best, although I believe that the beam itself should be still lethal several hundreds of meters away,if one is is enough unlucky to be on its path.

I, as you can guess, am a Marine part-time and I can tell you a few things about firing accurately...it is HARD, very HARD to hit even a man-sized target at more than 50 meters without very good sights matched to a competent rifleman. A bullet or a phaser pulse/beam is a SMALL object compared to you viewing area even through sights an inch wide at 100m. At 200m even the tiny rear aperture of an M-16A2will appear larger than the 12" wide 'A' target when the rifle is held propely. In other words your sights (to be acurate at range) need to be VERY small and I have yet to see a Fed weapon with a good set of sights, the phaser rifle didn't appear to have one, at least not one that would be accurate beyond 100m if I'm thinking of the same weapon as you are.

[Admiral Piett]

I have done a bit of research about Napoleonic era weapons.Oddly enough all sources seem to contradict each other.Neverthless there is a general agreement that the standard musket has a maximum range for the aimed fire of no more than 100 meters and only a skilled person can actually hope to hit the target at that range.Beyond 100 meters only massed fire works,and it is apparently effective up to 200 meters which constitutes its maximum practical range.The rate of fire is not clearly established,the figures vary from 1 to 3 rounds per minute.I do not know if this reflect different weapons,troops training,theoretical maximum or practical maximum in the heat of battle.The weapons of the era seem quite similar to each other so it seems strange to me that one type of musket could fire three rounds per minute and an other model only one,besides this should have had a substantial impact on the battles and I have found no reference to this.
Rifles have a fair superior accuracy and range but they were never deployed
in large numbers,with the exception of few èlite units.
The phaser assault rifle should have an accuracy comparable to that
of the musket,the same for the range.The rate of fire seems similar to that of a semiautomatic weapon.
For the reasons listed above I believe that the phaser assault rifle enjoys a substantial degree of superiority over the Napoleonic musket,thanks mainly to its superior rate of fire.

[Bryan]

Do they ever win?

Just a question we all know The Enterprise will come along with Super Data the droid that can hit any target if he stands in plain sight for a minute or two

But thats besides the point has the Ground Troops ever won?

Just curious I watched maybe all told 50 Epsoides of ST, Next Gen, Voyager and DS9
And I don't feel like digging through Mr Wongs Data-base of Epsoides

Movie Stormtroopers!

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Do they ever win?

Just a question we all know The Enterprise will come along with Super Data the droid that can hit any target if he stands in plain sight for a minute or two

But thats besides the point has the Ground Troops ever won?

Just curious I watched maybe all told 50 Epsoides of ST, Next Gen, Voyager and DS9
And I don't feel like digging through Mr Wongs Data-base of Epsoides

Movie Stormtroopers!

[Mr Bean]

Sure maybe Stormtroops told not to kill the people they are trying to fight

Name me one instance besides ANH Detention center that they did not have orders from Vadar to NOT kill them

When Vadar said No killing
ANH Escape From Detention Center
ESB Escaping from Bespin
ROTJ Entering the Shield Control Room

OTHER EXAMPLES of firefights
ANH Escape from Mos E. They nearly hit Solo half a dozen times and considing they had all of five seconds to hit him and he had cover they where marching in the open its no supize they missed him

ESB Hoth
They kicked ass and tooks names all the way to the Falcon which they nearly got Solo agian but then they where RUNNING after him firing from the hip its no suprize they misssed(Id Like to see you hit someone in the 500 yard Dash with a Glock while you RUN after them
When they where setting up a gun to take down the ship Solo pull the secret weapon comparment with a big gun trick on them and they never got a chance to shoot

ROTJ
After the Ewokes show up
Acutal this ones easy despute the comic hillarty injected into the this spot
Considing they where armed with PISTOLS, dressed in WHITE fighting camo'ed little aliens roughly 3 feet tall with home turf advantage they did pretty well alot of the little furballls where dead by the end of that fight,(If the wookie had not gotten the walker and taken out the other two then it would have been the end right there)

[Mr Bean]

Oh and your comparing Peole Wearing Armor with Guns that have acutal OPTIC SITES VS People using...



Annd



VS the Empire


Annnd



As its said above it does not matter if the Gun has a 50 KM Range, If it does not have any optics the farthest you will be hitting people is 50 yards

Thanks to Wongs Website for the pictures

[Admiral Piett]

The phaser assault rifle has an optical sight.Not comparable to imperial weapons but better than a musket at least.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

This is only a matter of common sense. I can't believe no one stopped to ask how many men this battle would consist of. If there were the same numbers of Federation forces as there is a Napoleanic army, I'd say the Federation in a frontal assault with their phasers set on a wide spray. All they have to do is run and point in the general direction of the army and shoot. A calvary wouldn't last long against the phasers, as it depends mostly on the reliability of the horses. Horses would probably be scared silly of the bright, shiny lights. Almost all animals that I could think of are scared of fire, and phasers are almost like that. They are bright, they emit heat, so the horses would probably be scared off, no matter how daring their riders are. And I would imagine communication would have a major effect on the battle as well. Napoleanic armies didn't have radio or anything of that sort. It took time for them to relay messages from the commander on the battlefield. The men did nothing without orders from their commanders to the soldiers. Their strict military training and reliance on orders that would take longer periods of time to receive is a weakness, as opposed to Federation soldiers that have real-time communication and usually act on thier own. Let's be realistic; a space force isn't going to lose to a army that doesn't even have a radio. Would you say that Stormtroopers would lose to a Napoleanic army? Hell no! When you compare a Federation army to a Napoleanic army, it doesn't make much difference if you compare any army with lasers, or phasers, or heat rays, or plasma, or whatever space-age weapons they have, to a Napoleanic army. Now, Stormtroopers vs Federation soldiers is a match.

[Mr Bean]

No Match at all

Thats like Saying 100 Men with Pistols is a fight VS 100 Men with Machine-guns
Start at 1000 yards apart.....

There is only one Trecky weapon with an Optic site on it and thats only ever been seen once, I'll try and find you the picture of what they are Using Voyager Era

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Good idea. Maybe Mr. Bean could scare 'em off with his fingers pointed like a gun.

"Oh no! He's got a finger-launching anti-personnel pistol! Run for your dear, sweet lives!!!"
(Mr. Bean points to the running Feds)
"It's magic!"
(Snorts)
lol

[Admiral Piett]

I think that horses were accustomed to overcome the fear of the enemy fire.Phasers should not scare them more than cannon fire.
In anyway the scenario would be a large number of federals against the same number of Napoleonic era soldiers.The federals are equipped with the phaser assault rifle (that with an optical sight),grenade launchers,type I and type II phasers as pistols plus trycorders,communicators,medikits etc.However no shuttles,transporters Peregrine fighters,starships fire support or TOS era weapons.The Napoleonic era troops would have their usual equipment and would be supported by cavalry and artillery.
I have to research Napoleonic army organization.In a couple of days I should be able to post a definitive, more refined version of this scenario.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

I still think a primitive army such as that could not win against an even army of space-age soldiers. Especially since the army is in the Federation's history, meaning the commander of the Federation, most likely a starship captain (who is educated and studies military history just the way West Point officers do) would already know how they attack and would counter it. The other commander would know nothing of the future and would still used outdated weapons and tactics to try to stop the Federation forces. The Federation outguns them both with their grenade launchers and their various phasers. I seriously doubt that an army that was used for engaging other stationary armies would win against an army that has weapons designed for mobile warfare. While the opposing army was still loading their rifles, Federation soldiers could simply run while pointing in the general direction of the other army and fire into them. It's not that difficult to do. Just run while shooting a huge spray of phaser fire into a mass of humans. The Napoleanic army would just sit there, reload, fire, reload, fire. If they tried to engage Federation forces in close-quarters combat with bayonets, the Federation forces could just run away while shooting at them rapidly. Napoleanic armies used to carry heavy loads of equipment on their backs, so they would get tired very fast. Federation forces wear, what, shirts. The calvary wouldn't be effective against the grenade launchers. It was said that the calvary would ride into cannon fire and suffer 80 percent casualties. Well if grenade launchers, which are probably more accurate and deadly than cannons were fired at the calvary, and let's stay conservative and say 20 percent got out alive, the rest of the Federation army that suffered little casualties from the apparantly useless infantry would clean the rest up. Unlike Napoleanic armies at the time, calvary riders would be destroyed. Once a calvary clashes with infantry, the riders use their sabers to chop at fleeing soldiers that have no defenses against them. That is what they were used to, that is what they were trained to do. Apparantly, this is not the case with Federation soldiers. Instead of having to stop and reload like Napoleanic soldiers, they could just blast away at the calvary riders. Federation forces would win. I'm not a Trekkie, but I know that the Federation isn't completely helpless. IRG=Imperial Royal Guards, a clan I belong to.

[Mr Bean]

who is educated and studies military history just the way West Point officers do

Ahh But Treck does not HAVE a West Point
All Navel troops from the lowest Enlisted to the highest Star-ship captian or Admiral all go the the Acadamy
And the branchs have become speslished in Treck for the simple reason watch the 106(I think total number) of ground fights and ask a Army Officer with at least ONE year of schooling and see what he says
(Brain dead idiots comes to mind)
I have a good friend of mine named Dave(No relation to this Dave of the Board) who is studding Military History and next Year goes to Tuffs to study there full schollership and all
I had him sit down and watch Star Treck once and it was on of there send everyone onto the planet to have a look see trips
After 4 mins I asked him about what he thought about there tatics
His response?
Well... At least they did not shut there eyes
His other comment
You know I think I could take all six of them with a pistol, one hand tied behind my back, hopping on one foot and an eyepatch on

Watch Trecky tatics
Or lack there of

Its a nice idea they study battles of the past, and its just good common sense, but the simple problem is they DON'T


Also my Friend I'd like to see two things
1. Any Federation offcer outrun a horse
2. You try and shoot a rifle while running and shooting over your shoilder

Simple fact is The Federation Running away just means Napolean can use his Artillry on them

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Number One: Napolean himself is commanding the army? It was said, "Napoleanic army," not "Napolean's army."
Number Two: LOL I guess I was wrong.
Number Three: I didn't literally West Point, I just used it as an example because it is a well-known military academy.
Number Four: Is this TOS-era Trek or TNG-era Trek, or something beyond that? I think if Kirk was in command, it would go well because he is a good tactician. If it were Picard, probably not. Unless he put Worf in command, lol. And the others, well I just am not familiar with the others. lol But if they are like Picard with his diplomatic stuff...eh.........nah.

[Mr Bean]

Thats the point where are trying to make there IS not tatics realy present in ST beyond a few simple things


The only people who have tatics are the aliens they fight and they only beat them thanks to good guy abiltites
No intellgance