i have been trying to fill in the gaps in the stormtrooper order of battle, here is what i came up with. i used the imperial sourcebook and the rebel specforces handbook for references and i made up the rest. please tell me what you think and any changes you think should be made.
Stormtrooper Order of Battle.
Squad: The squad is the smallest unit in the Stormtrooper Order of Battle. A standard Stormtrooper squad consists of 12 troopers: a squad leader, an assistant squad leader and ten squad members. A Storm Commando squad consists 10 troopers: a squad leader, an assistant squad leader and eight squad members. A Scout Trooper squad is called a lance. It consists of five troopers: a lance leader and four lance members.
Platoon: A standard Stormtrooper platoon consists of 50 Stormtroopers. There are four squads and a command element of two. A lieutenant commands a platoon and has a sergeant as assistant platoon commander.
Company: A standard Stormtrooper company consists of 153 Stormtroopers. There are three platoons and a command element of three. A captain commands a company with a lieutenant and a master sergeant.
Battalion: A Stormtrooper battalion consists of 820 Stormtroopers. There are five companies, a heavy weapons platoon of 40 Stormtroopers (13 heavy repeating blasters), two scout lances (10 speeder bikes), and a command element of five. A commander commands a battalion with the help of a captain, two lieutenants, and a master sergeant. Most Stormtrooper battalions are of the standard type, however, one in four of these is of a specialized nature. These units are called Snowtroopers, Sandtroopers, Seatroopers, and Radtroopers to name a few. Rest assured, there is a specialized Stormtrooper unit for every type of environment in the Empire. A battalion has 29 officers, 23 non commissioned officers, and 768 Stormtroopers.
Division: A Stormtrooper division consists of 3,400 Stormtroopers. There are four battalions, a scout troop of eight lances (40 speeder bikes), a Storm Commando platoon of 40, and a command platoon of 40. The command platoon has a command element of four, a standard squad for security and two heavy weapons squads of 12 Stormtroopers each (a total of eight heavy repeating blasters). A major commands a division with the assistance of a commander, a captain, and a master sergeant. A division has 122 officers, 98 non commissioned officers, 3,180 Stormtroopers, and 60 heavy repeating blasters.
Legion: A Stormtrooper legion consists of 14,000 Stormtroopers. There are four divisions, a scout squadron of five scout troops and a command element of 5 (205 speeder bikes), a Storm Commando company of 170(a command element of 10 and four Storm Commando platoons), and a command platoon of 25. The command platoon has a command element of 13 and a standard squad for security. A colonel commands a legion with a major, a commander, a captain, four lieutenants, a sergeant major, and four master sergeants. A legion has 509 officers, 430 non commissioned officers, 13,061 Stormtroopers, and 240 heavy repeating blasters.
Stormtrooper order of battle
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Eleventh Century Remnant
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
Not the first time this has come up, but fresh ideas and all that-
How do you get a twelve man squad out of those sources, when the Imperial Sourcebook explicitly states eight men plus sargeant, and the complement of the early standard AT- TE is twenty, and that of the AT-AT is forty?
I know there are real world cases- Bradley, LVTP- of vehicles with capacity that doesn't match squad sizes, but that points me towards a nine man squad and a forty man platoon, four squads plus lieutenant, platoon sargeant, and two specialists, probably comtech and medic.
Twelve man squads might be neater, breaking down to three fireteams of four, but if you can find somewhere where it's officially stated to be the case I'd be interested to see it, because I don't think it is.
p83 states that Stormtroopers broadly follow the Imperial Army order of battle, nine men to a squad, although with much greater variation based on squad size.
Off the back of that, I'd personally expect that variation to do with specialisation- fewer Scouts and Radtroopers to a squad, more Seatroopers, for isntance.
That and the Sourcebook describes the organisation from there as basically quadrilateral plus attachments. Four platoons to a company, etc, all the way up to four Corps to an Army. No, this doesn't necessarily fit- especially not as walkers seem to come in numbers divisible by five. (Blizzard Force, the standard complement of an ISD being twenty five AT-AT and fifty AT-ST, etc)
The big gaps, IMO, are- how much specialisation? What proportion of specialists are carried on the books of a typical MARDET, who authorises variance and how much are they empowered to vary by? How much cross training- can an ordinary grunt get sent on the radtrooper course, say, and does he get paid more for that qualifiaction? Does he then deploy as a regular line marine the rest of the time, except when a need for his specialty exists?
How do the divisible-by-five walkers fit into the conventional divisible-by-four force structure? Why does the repulsor- ridden army structure even apply to the Marines? Look at the sheer number of different types and loadouts even on the extremely small unit scale- isn't this taking diversity too far?
Where is their logistic train, anyway- is this a case of 'nobody quits, everybody fights' and even the admin personnel and quartermasters are expected to turn out with a rifle when the need arises? Is it more that the rear area personnel have to qualify as riflemen, or the front line marines are also trained to manage their own support structure?
Yes, there are questions, and a lot of them revolve around the canonical lack of structure and simplicity that West End saddled us with.
(ed for spelling= "radtropers." an interesting mistake, but...)
How do you get a twelve man squad out of those sources, when the Imperial Sourcebook explicitly states eight men plus sargeant, and the complement of the early standard AT- TE is twenty, and that of the AT-AT is forty?
I know there are real world cases- Bradley, LVTP- of vehicles with capacity that doesn't match squad sizes, but that points me towards a nine man squad and a forty man platoon, four squads plus lieutenant, platoon sargeant, and two specialists, probably comtech and medic.
Twelve man squads might be neater, breaking down to three fireteams of four, but if you can find somewhere where it's officially stated to be the case I'd be interested to see it, because I don't think it is.
p83 states that Stormtroopers broadly follow the Imperial Army order of battle, nine men to a squad, although with much greater variation based on squad size.
Off the back of that, I'd personally expect that variation to do with specialisation- fewer Scouts and Radtroopers to a squad, more Seatroopers, for isntance.
That and the Sourcebook describes the organisation from there as basically quadrilateral plus attachments. Four platoons to a company, etc, all the way up to four Corps to an Army. No, this doesn't necessarily fit- especially not as walkers seem to come in numbers divisible by five. (Blizzard Force, the standard complement of an ISD being twenty five AT-AT and fifty AT-ST, etc)
The big gaps, IMO, are- how much specialisation? What proportion of specialists are carried on the books of a typical MARDET, who authorises variance and how much are they empowered to vary by? How much cross training- can an ordinary grunt get sent on the radtrooper course, say, and does he get paid more for that qualifiaction? Does he then deploy as a regular line marine the rest of the time, except when a need for his specialty exists?
How do the divisible-by-five walkers fit into the conventional divisible-by-four force structure? Why does the repulsor- ridden army structure even apply to the Marines? Look at the sheer number of different types and loadouts even on the extremely small unit scale- isn't this taking diversity too far?
Where is their logistic train, anyway- is this a case of 'nobody quits, everybody fights' and even the admin personnel and quartermasters are expected to turn out with a rifle when the need arises? Is it more that the rear area personnel have to qualify as riflemen, or the front line marines are also trained to manage their own support structure?
Yes, there are questions, and a lot of them revolve around the canonical lack of structure and simplicity that West End saddled us with.
(ed for spelling= "radtropers." an interesting mistake, but...)
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Vehrec
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
Maybe the logistics are handled entirely by droids, which would count as part of the equipment list, not as personnel. This doesn't solve all the problems, but if basic management tasks such as paperwork and managing deliveries of supplies are handled by units like M-series protocol droids, we might have a reason why there's nobody on the OoB who does this.
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
Why end here, what's wrong with a fire team? Also, why 10 troopers per squad, is there any particular reason for that? For example, in a lot of military's, the squad is eight men made from two fire teams of four. In the USMC, the squad is 13 troops out of three 4 man teams and a squad leader.Squad: The squad is the smallest unit in the Stormtrooper Order of Battle. A standard Stormtrooper squad consists of 12 troopers: a squad leader, an assistant squad leader and ten squad members. A Storm Commando squad consists 10 troopers: a squad leader, an assistant squad leader and eight squad members. A Scout Trooper squad is called a lance. It consists of five troopers: a lance leader and four lance members.
If indeed you are going to have 10 men squads, that's fine and all, but the reason squads have X amount of people in them is for a reason. In USMC doctrine, you have three teams so that in a fire fight, you can have one support team laying down a base of fire, one team assaulting and maneuvering, and one team on security and over watch. Those teams are four men because of both roles, team leader, SAW gunner, SAW A-gunner, and rifleman, and two 2 man teams so everyone has a safety buddy. If you're going to have 10 men squads, then you're going to have five two man elements, or two four man elements with a spare two on the side, or three 3 men elements with one on the side.
If the squad is the base of your numbers, it's important you put some thought into it both in TO&E and doctrine.
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But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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NoogDeNoog
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
1. on page 102 of the rebel specforces handbook, it states that Storm Commando units range in size from 4 to 40. so i attached a 40 platoon to the division level and a 4 platoon unit to the legion level, commanded by a 10 man hq squad. Storm Commando units are divided equally between 4 specialties: Line, Assault, Saboteur, and Tech. i imagine mission teams would take whatever assets are needed for the mission. 40 man platoons is just for organizational purposes.
as for the rest of what knife stated, i envision a 12 man squad working like this, 2 assault teams of 4 each with a 4 man element providing cover with the addition of a attached heavy repeating blaster.
2 the way i understand it, Stormtroopers are supplied from whatever HQ they are attacked to. so a unit stationed on a ISD get supplied through the navy and a unit stationed to a garrison is supply through the army. as for medical and other logistics, remember stormtroopers are the tip of the spear, as soon as the area is secure, the medic and supply people move in to take care of the Stormtroopers.
3. Page 83 of what book? my imperial sourcebook doesn't say anything about Stormtroopers on page 83.
page 97 of the rebel specforces handbook states that Stormtrooper squads have from 4-12 troopers. aren't the 8 man +1 squads referring to the Imperial army? as for manning the At-At's, say you are landing all 25 At-At's from an ISD on an assault. you need 1,000 Stormtroopers to man them. so one 820 battalion is used and a 153 man company is attached with and addition 9 heavy repeating blasters from the battalion heavy weapons platoon. if anything, i am sure Stormtrooper formations are flexible.
i think you misunderstood what i said about the specialized units. in each legion there are 3 standard Stormtrooper battalions. the fourth battalion is either a snowtrooper, sandtrooper, seatrooper, or radtrooper unit. each of these unit types has it's own attached scout units that can operate in that environment. so a naval unit of 3 ISD's would have 9 standard battalions and say a snowtrooper battalion, a sandtrooper battalion, and a seatrooper battalion. moreover, in a sector fleet, which i believe contains 24 ISD's, you would have 72 standard battalions and 24 specialized battalions that corresponds with whatever environment types are in that sector.
blizzard force was the name of the snowtrooper battalion attached to the executor. all At-At's and At-St's are piloted by the imperial army. Stormtroopers have nothing to do with them.
25 At-At's, 1 hq troop At-At, 2 12 At-At platoons, 3 lances of 4.
50 At-St's, 2 hq Squadron, 2 troops of 24, each troop has 4 At-St hq and 5 4At-St lances.
i think WEG were just stating the front line military. in a planetary assault, there are literally hundreds of ships in orbit, with thousands of shuttles. you don't really need a central supply point with supply trains connecting units. if a unit needs supply, a shuttle from their base ship just brings it down to them. in a garrison situation, supply ships are already making routine supply runs and i am sure most of it is handled by droids.
as for the rest of what knife stated, i envision a 12 man squad working like this, 2 assault teams of 4 each with a 4 man element providing cover with the addition of a attached heavy repeating blaster.
2 the way i understand it, Stormtroopers are supplied from whatever HQ they are attacked to. so a unit stationed on a ISD get supplied through the navy and a unit stationed to a garrison is supply through the army. as for medical and other logistics, remember stormtroopers are the tip of the spear, as soon as the area is secure, the medic and supply people move in to take care of the Stormtroopers.
3. Page 83 of what book? my imperial sourcebook doesn't say anything about Stormtroopers on page 83.
page 97 of the rebel specforces handbook states that Stormtrooper squads have from 4-12 troopers. aren't the 8 man +1 squads referring to the Imperial army? as for manning the At-At's, say you are landing all 25 At-At's from an ISD on an assault. you need 1,000 Stormtroopers to man them. so one 820 battalion is used and a 153 man company is attached with and addition 9 heavy repeating blasters from the battalion heavy weapons platoon. if anything, i am sure Stormtrooper formations are flexible.
i think you misunderstood what i said about the specialized units. in each legion there are 3 standard Stormtrooper battalions. the fourth battalion is either a snowtrooper, sandtrooper, seatrooper, or radtrooper unit. each of these unit types has it's own attached scout units that can operate in that environment. so a naval unit of 3 ISD's would have 9 standard battalions and say a snowtrooper battalion, a sandtrooper battalion, and a seatrooper battalion. moreover, in a sector fleet, which i believe contains 24 ISD's, you would have 72 standard battalions and 24 specialized battalions that corresponds with whatever environment types are in that sector.
blizzard force was the name of the snowtrooper battalion attached to the executor. all At-At's and At-St's are piloted by the imperial army. Stormtroopers have nothing to do with them.
25 At-At's, 1 hq troop At-At, 2 12 At-At platoons, 3 lances of 4.
50 At-St's, 2 hq Squadron, 2 troops of 24, each troop has 4 At-St hq and 5 4At-St lances.
i think WEG were just stating the front line military. in a planetary assault, there are literally hundreds of ships in orbit, with thousands of shuttles. you don't really need a central supply point with supply trains connecting units. if a unit needs supply, a shuttle from their base ship just brings it down to them. in a garrison situation, supply ships are already making routine supply runs and i am sure most of it is handled by droids.
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Eleventh Century Remnant
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
Why are you trying to work backwards from special forces, which is what Storm Commandos are, to line units? I don't see the justification for the assumption that a unit that ranges in size from 4 to 40 is anything other than a special forces unit, highly adapable to circumstances and possibly put together for a specific mission- not a permanent unit.
Realistically, units vary in size for a number of reasons; casualties, illness, leave, recruiting problems, detachments, AWOL, or under disciplinary action, there are many more- but not by an order of magnitude, not in peacetime and low- intensity conflict. In a long, attritional war, you might find units deploying at ten percent of nominal strength and counting themselves lucky to have even that, but that doesn't suit the circumstances of the Empire at any time before Palpatine's death.
That isn't even the issue, the issue is theoretical strength, and I suggest that a unit whose theoretical strength varies by an order of magnitude is obviously not a basic building block of the Imperial Army or Marines, or any organised army.
p83 of The Imperial Sourcebook, of course. Hardback, second ed, 1994 printing. You're using a PDF? Start by looking to 'Sector Group Organisation' and take it from there, it's a couple of pages in if yours are numbered diffrently. Order of battle layout in one sidebar, the quadrilateral (which is in itself wildly wrong, more later), and in the other the explicit statement that
Actually, looking through my own PDF copy of the rebel specforce handbook, it's later in date, and may represent a retcon of the details in the Sourcebook. Hmm.
I am really not convinced about them being infantry only. Both were written before the C-canon take on the Clone Wars, where we saw Clone Troopers that were definitely not merely infantry- they were undoubtedly specialised in training, but there were still clone troopers doing everything up to and including capital ship crew. I think the movies supersede that part, or at least do so for the early stormtrooper corps which grew directly out of the clones.
I can just about buy into the logistics droid part- although it is mentioned in the new essential guide to droids that some models of separatist droid ended up functioning for the Empire, in front line positions too. I am surprised that it was politically possible, though- Imperial logistics includes what are effectively rapid- prototyping machines, above regimental (stormtrooper division, that really doesn't sound right but what the hell) level they can make their own spare parts. Giving military droids the ability to make more military droids, shortly after the end of the clone wars? Technically, a cinch. Politically, a hair-raiser.
I am definitely not convinced there are so few of them. There are twenty- four Imperators, minimum, in a full sized sector, each with the best part of a legion on board, unless you want all the Imperial Starfleet's boarding and interdiction work to be done by navy troopers? Directly contradicted.
Oh, and just for a laugh, this is from "Viktor Suvorov" (Vladimir Rezun)'s guide to the cold war Soviet Army. I know his reputation isn't great lately, he ran out of real stuff to write and started speculating at random, but this is from when he still had something to say, and this is a quadrilateral formation- with attachments.
Soviet motor rifle regiment;
Command headquarters
Recon company
Signals company
Tank batallion (three companies, each three platoons of three tanks plus command)
Three motor rifle batallions (each three motor rifle companies, each company three platoons of three IFVs plus command, mortar battery of 6 self propelled automortars)
Tube artillery batallion (three howitzer fire batteries of six self propelled guns, control battery)
Multiple rocket launcher battery (six mobile multiple launchers)
SAM battery (six missile vehicles, six gun vehicles)
Combat engineer company
Chemical warfare defence company
Maintenance company
Transport company
I simply happened to have that to hand, a unit from any modern army would have made the same points; military specialisation consists of more than variations on a theme of infantry, any unit of that size is a composite unit, that variety and diversity is necessary for the unit to function. Things are only going to get more complicated with repulsor gunships and tanks, walkers and droids to deal with.
Realistically, units vary in size for a number of reasons; casualties, illness, leave, recruiting problems, detachments, AWOL, or under disciplinary action, there are many more- but not by an order of magnitude, not in peacetime and low- intensity conflict. In a long, attritional war, you might find units deploying at ten percent of nominal strength and counting themselves lucky to have even that, but that doesn't suit the circumstances of the Empire at any time before Palpatine's death.
That isn't even the issue, the issue is theoretical strength, and I suggest that a unit whose theoretical strength varies by an order of magnitude is obviously not a basic building block of the Imperial Army or Marines, or any organised army.
p83 of The Imperial Sourcebook, of course. Hardback, second ed, 1994 printing. You're using a PDF? Start by looking to 'Sector Group Organisation' and take it from there, it's a couple of pages in if yours are numbered diffrently. Order of battle layout in one sidebar, the quadrilateral (which is in itself wildly wrong, more later), and in the other the explicit statement that
We can argue about what it ought to be, and what ought to make more sense, and whether or not the writer had anything more definite in mind than 'amorphous blob', but there it is in black and white, unfortunately. Although there are hints- "the Empire spends a great deal of time selecting and training its sargeants...the sargeants build the squads, and the squad is what the Army is built on"- that at least the Empire has or is trying hard to cultivate a professional NCO corps.Stormtroopers technically do fit into the Order of Battle.
Actually, looking through my own PDF copy of the rebel specforce handbook, it's later in date, and may represent a retcon of the details in the Sourcebook. Hmm.
I am really not convinced about them being infantry only. Both were written before the C-canon take on the Clone Wars, where we saw Clone Troopers that were definitely not merely infantry- they were undoubtedly specialised in training, but there were still clone troopers doing everything up to and including capital ship crew. I think the movies supersede that part, or at least do so for the early stormtrooper corps which grew directly out of the clones.
I can just about buy into the logistics droid part- although it is mentioned in the new essential guide to droids that some models of separatist droid ended up functioning for the Empire, in front line positions too. I am surprised that it was politically possible, though- Imperial logistics includes what are effectively rapid- prototyping machines, above regimental (stormtrooper division, that really doesn't sound right but what the hell) level they can make their own spare parts. Giving military droids the ability to make more military droids, shortly after the end of the clone wars? Technically, a cinch. Politically, a hair-raiser.
I am definitely not convinced there are so few of them. There are twenty- four Imperators, minimum, in a full sized sector, each with the best part of a legion on board, unless you want all the Imperial Starfleet's boarding and interdiction work to be done by navy troopers? Directly contradicted.
Oh, and just for a laugh, this is from "Viktor Suvorov" (Vladimir Rezun)'s guide to the cold war Soviet Army. I know his reputation isn't great lately, he ran out of real stuff to write and started speculating at random, but this is from when he still had something to say, and this is a quadrilateral formation- with attachments.
Soviet motor rifle regiment;
Command headquarters
Recon company
Signals company
Tank batallion (three companies, each three platoons of three tanks plus command)
Three motor rifle batallions (each three motor rifle companies, each company three platoons of three IFVs plus command, mortar battery of 6 self propelled automortars)
Tube artillery batallion (three howitzer fire batteries of six self propelled guns, control battery)
Multiple rocket launcher battery (six mobile multiple launchers)
SAM battery (six missile vehicles, six gun vehicles)
Combat engineer company
Chemical warfare defence company
Maintenance company
Transport company
I simply happened to have that to hand, a unit from any modern army would have made the same points; military specialisation consists of more than variations on a theme of infantry, any unit of that size is a composite unit, that variety and diversity is necessary for the unit to function. Things are only going to get more complicated with repulsor gunships and tanks, walkers and droids to deal with.
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Ghost Rider
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
Small friendly reminder to the new poster.
*i* is the lower case version of the letter.
*I* is the word you are looking for.
Please actually use *I* as using the lower case is a bit trying to find which word you've split up or did not properly spell.
Thank you.
*i* is the lower case version of the letter.
*I* is the word you are looking for.
Please actually use *I* as using the lower case is a bit trying to find which word you've split up or did not properly spell.
Thank you.
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NoogDeNoog
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
I am using first printing october 1989.
I included Storm Commandos in the division OB because an ISD may have a mission where special forces are needed (navy seals on a aircraft carrier or sub).
I don't understand why you say "so few of them". Having a 3,400 division on each ISD gives you 81,400 stormtroopers per sector. add to that, all the stormtroopers on the other 1,600 combat vessels per sector, not to mention all the bases and garrisons. I don't see how having naval troopers contradicts anything.
as for that last part, i agree, that is what the Imperial Army is for. i believe it states that Stormtroopers are an infantry only unit, like the rangers or airborne. tip of the spear!
I included Storm Commandos in the division OB because an ISD may have a mission where special forces are needed (navy seals on a aircraft carrier or sub).
I don't understand why you say "so few of them". Having a 3,400 division on each ISD gives you 81,400 stormtroopers per sector. add to that, all the stormtroopers on the other 1,600 combat vessels per sector, not to mention all the bases and garrisons. I don't see how having naval troopers contradicts anything.
as for that last part, i agree, that is what the Imperial Army is for. i believe it states that Stormtroopers are an infantry only unit, like the rangers or airborne. tip of the spear!
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Ritterin Sophia
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
If it helps WotC has published new books detailing the OoB for both the Rebellion and Empire (as well as the Old Republic, Sith Empire, Prequal Republic, and the CIS. According to the Rebellion Era Campaign Guide (2009), Chapter VII: The Empire, Pg 120:
"Squad (8 Troops): A squad consists of eight troopers, including a sergeant and a corporal.
Platoon (32 Troops): A platoon consists of four squads commanded by a lieutenant and a sergeant major.
Company (128 Troops): A company consists of four platoons led by a captain.
Battalion (512 Troops): A battalion consists of four companies commanded by a major.
Regiment (2,048 Troops): A regiment consists of four battalions commanded by a lieutenant colonel.
Legion (9,192 Troops): A legion is composed of four regiments led by a high colonel. The legion is the standard deployment for major offensives."
"Squad (8 Troops): A squad consists of eight troopers, including a sergeant and a corporal.
Platoon (32 Troops): A platoon consists of four squads commanded by a lieutenant and a sergeant major.
Company (128 Troops): A company consists of four platoons led by a captain.
Battalion (512 Troops): A battalion consists of four companies commanded by a major.
Regiment (2,048 Troops): A regiment consists of four battalions commanded by a lieutenant colonel.
Legion (9,192 Troops): A legion is composed of four regiments led by a high colonel. The legion is the standard deployment for major offensives."
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NoogDeNoog
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
I can't really get into WotC. it looks like they just started multiplying by 4. 8, 32, 128, 512, 2048, and 9192. wait that last one must be a typo, maybe 8192 (2048*4). doesn't seem like they put much thought into it.
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Ritterin Sophia
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
Yeah that's a typo on my part.NoogDeNoog wrote:I can't really get into WotC. it looks like they just started multiplying by 4. 8, 32, 128, 512, 2048, and 9192. wait that last one must be a typo, maybe 8192 (2048*4). doesn't seem like they put much thought into it.
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Simon_Jester
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
Yeah. It raises ECR's point. Where are the stormtroopers' command headquarters? Doesn't the general of a stormtrooper legion have staff? What about specialist weapons organic to the legion?NoogDeNoog wrote:I can't really get into WotC. it looks like they just started multiplying by 4. 8, 32, 128, 512, 2048, and 9192. wait that last one must be a typo, maybe 8192 (2048*4). doesn't seem like they put much thought into it.
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Ritterin Sophia
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
To be quite honest, no Star Wars OOB I've ever seen lists or distinguishes HQ units, and it's completely possible that they don't have them. It's also possible that they leave out the HQ because they're only concerned with line units. Regardless, we're forced to accept it.Simon_Jester wrote:Yeah. It raises ECR's point. Where are the stormtroopers' command headquarters? Doesn't the general of a stormtrooper legion have staff? What about specialist weapons organic to the legion?
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Simon_Jester
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
If we're forced to accept both the numbers and the assertion that the Imperial stormtroopers are at least vaguely professional at face value, then that sticks us with "the HQ units are left out."
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
There are some problems with assuming a droid logistic arm along with HQ adminstrative capabilities. While we have seen such droids pull duty before in the EU(Rogue Squadron and Wraith in particular), the movies show that the Galactic Republic, Rebel Alliance having human HQ elements, including using humans to move stuff on a light map in ANH and feature people like Lieutant Tanbris and Chief Bast who served in staff roles during the attack on Yavin.
On the other hand, we then see General Veers who dropped directly on the planet without visible staff, although he was in an AT-AT. Perhaps a disconnect then? While the Clonetroopers featured a human run headquarters element, the Galactic Empire armies use extensive computer support and comns for their stormtrooper elements, while the Navy still rely heavily on humans?
On the other hand, we then see General Veers who dropped directly on the planet without visible staff, although he was in an AT-AT. Perhaps a disconnect then? While the Clonetroopers featured a human run headquarters element, the Galactic Empire armies use extensive computer support and comns for their stormtrooper elements, while the Navy still rely heavily on humans?
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NoogDeNoog
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
The only specialist weapons that we see the Stormtroopers use is the heavy repeating blaster in ESB. That is why I included them in the OB. I have read about them using hand held missile launcher and some other stuff, but remember, Stormtroopers are an shock infantry unit.
Do the Stormtroopers really need staff officers? Intelligence can be acquired from whatever branch the unit is attached to. The same goes for logistics, medical, and technical. A HQ officer really isn't needed cause there isn't much of a HQ unit to control and what there is can be controlled by the HQ element.
Do the Stormtroopers really need staff officers? Intelligence can be acquired from whatever branch the unit is attached to. The same goes for logistics, medical, and technical. A HQ officer really isn't needed cause there isn't much of a HQ unit to control and what there is can be controlled by the HQ element.
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NoogDeNoog
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
I was reading the death star technical companion last night and it states that the death star carried two full legions of Stormtroopers which equals 25,984. So that makes a legion equal to 12,992.
I also found it interesting that the DS1 carried a total of 1,206,293 personnel and only 2.1% of them were Stormtroopers. Who said you need more Stormtroopers?
Can someone tell me why the DS1 carried some much ground assault equipment? Wasn't it's mission to destroy planets not occupy them?
I also found it interesting that the DS1 carried a total of 1,206,293 personnel and only 2.1% of them were Stormtroopers. Who said you need more Stormtroopers?
Can someone tell me why the DS1 carried some much ground assault equipment? Wasn't it's mission to destroy planets not occupy them?
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fractalsponge1
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
Does it give the breakdown for internal security units? If not, two legions seems hardly too many for that role alone.
Perhaps the "full" legion numbers encompasses all the staff and specialist elements that are excluded from a strict count of front-line troopers?
Does you know what the original source for stormtroopers being infantry-only? The original clone-trooper corps was certainly not all infantry, and I don't think it's explicitly stated in the movies or novelizations that AT-ATs are not stormtrooper-manned.
Perhaps the "full" legion numbers encompasses all the staff and specialist elements that are excluded from a strict count of front-line troopers?
Does you know what the original source for stormtroopers being infantry-only? The original clone-trooper corps was certainly not all infantry, and I don't think it's explicitly stated in the movies or novelizations that AT-ATs are not stormtrooper-manned.
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NoogDeNoog
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
Page 97 of the rebel specforces handbook states that, " Stormtroopers are infantry forces. There are no Stormtrooper crewed tanks, no Stormtrooper artillery units."
I believe security on the DS1 was proveded by the Death Star troopers who seem to just be naval troopers in black uniforms. Here is the personnel breakdown on the DS1.
Officers: 27,048.
Troops/pilots/crew: 774,576.
Support personnel: 378,685.
Stormtroopers: 25,984.
I also found an interesting note about the numbers of Stormtroopes per sector. The rebel specforces handbook says that the sector moff controls one legion, the army another one, and the navy controls a third one. So there are at least 3 legions to add to all the Stormtroopers on board ships, garrison, and ground bases.
I believe security on the DS1 was proveded by the Death Star troopers who seem to just be naval troopers in black uniforms. Here is the personnel breakdown on the DS1.
Officers: 27,048.
Troops/pilots/crew: 774,576.
Support personnel: 378,685.
Stormtroopers: 25,984.
I also found an interesting note about the numbers of Stormtroopes per sector. The rebel specforces handbook says that the sector moff controls one legion, the army another one, and the navy controls a third one. So there are at least 3 legions to add to all the Stormtroopers on board ships, garrison, and ground bases.
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fractalsponge1
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
Ah, ok, I was never sure where that was explicitly stated. Still, there are examples of stormtrooper armor forces personnel: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Davin_Felth. Certainly the snowtroopers at Hoth were mechanized infantry at the very least.
AT-ATs carried by ISDs to go with their stormtrooper complements seems to be logically stormtrooper manned, unless they are somehow Army or Navy crewed?
There was an old number from the Behind the Magic CD for the stormtrooper corps being over 2 billion strong, if I remember correctly. I wonder if that has been superseded by anything newer.
AT-ATs carried by ISDs to go with their stormtrooper complements seems to be logically stormtrooper manned, unless they are somehow Army or Navy crewed?
There was an old number from the Behind the Magic CD for the stormtrooper corps being over 2 billion strong, if I remember correctly. I wonder if that has been superseded by anything newer.
Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
What do the source books say about regular army order of battle? I understand the small numbers of shock troops, but I hope the army is bigger and has different organizational structure. A legion smaller or slightly bigger than a Roman legion looks absurd.
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Eleventh Century Remnant
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
You'd hate the Napoleonic Wars, then; there was a conscious harking back to Roman virtue in some circles, the militant bourgeoisie mainly, that resulted in a whole slew of Romanesque references.
It resulted in a wild variety of semi- organised units having the name 'Legion' applied to them, everything from the infamous Black Legion- who had been dragged out of Paris jails to fight for their country, and were more or less a light infantry batallion- through what were later referred to as 'demi-brigades volontaires', departmental militia formations of whatever was to hand, to combined militia/regular units of all arms roughly seven to eight thousand strong at full establishment that resembled a very early regimental combat team.
I mention this for two points; sometimes organisation isn't really all that organised- and was it a similar sort of appeal to ancient Republican (
) virtue that resulted in a Galactic Standard term that translates to us as "Legion" being applied to the stormtroopers?
In any case, the problem is that the Imperial Sourcebook actually primarily describes the regular army order of battle, and then states that stormtroopers broadly conform to it- which means there should be a hell of a lot of stromtrooper- manned repulsortanks out there somewhere, and leaves no place at all for the combat walkers directly observed to work with them.
Then the rebel alliance specops book, in describing what the Alliance has to go up against, says something entirely different.
There is a confusion of sources here, and they're both S-canon. The existence of the clone troopers as seen on camera, and their loadout and capabilities, supersedes them both.
From that I take the theory that the Stormtrooper Corps is more than a simple low- intensity warfare optimised, fancy toy tricked out leg outfit; they are combined arms, and they have a critical role to play as the Empire's first response. Because of the fleet basing, because of their doctrinal adaptations, they can react much faster than the Army.
Minor outbreak of rebellion? Rebel base detected on a barren outworld? A Fleet Marine Force can be there in half an hour. Planet declared for the Republic? Might have to wait another hour for more destroyers to arrive. Or a neck-or-nothing assault with what can be moved, this second, to get down before they bring their shields online. It could take days for the army to round everyone up, load up, and send a corps level troopship.
It resulted in a wild variety of semi- organised units having the name 'Legion' applied to them, everything from the infamous Black Legion- who had been dragged out of Paris jails to fight for their country, and were more or less a light infantry batallion- through what were later referred to as 'demi-brigades volontaires', departmental militia formations of whatever was to hand, to combined militia/regular units of all arms roughly seven to eight thousand strong at full establishment that resembled a very early regimental combat team.
I mention this for two points; sometimes organisation isn't really all that organised- and was it a similar sort of appeal to ancient Republican (
) virtue that resulted in a Galactic Standard term that translates to us as "Legion" being applied to the stormtroopers?In any case, the problem is that the Imperial Sourcebook actually primarily describes the regular army order of battle, and then states that stormtroopers broadly conform to it- which means there should be a hell of a lot of stromtrooper- manned repulsortanks out there somewhere, and leaves no place at all for the combat walkers directly observed to work with them.
Then the rebel alliance specops book, in describing what the Alliance has to go up against, says something entirely different.
There is a confusion of sources here, and they're both S-canon. The existence of the clone troopers as seen on camera, and their loadout and capabilities, supersedes them both.
From that I take the theory that the Stormtrooper Corps is more than a simple low- intensity warfare optimised, fancy toy tricked out leg outfit; they are combined arms, and they have a critical role to play as the Empire's first response. Because of the fleet basing, because of their doctrinal adaptations, they can react much faster than the Army.
Minor outbreak of rebellion? Rebel base detected on a barren outworld? A Fleet Marine Force can be there in half an hour. Planet declared for the Republic? Might have to wait another hour for more destroyers to arrive. Or a neck-or-nothing assault with what can be moved, this second, to get down before they bring their shields online. It could take days for the army to round everyone up, load up, and send a corps level troopship.
The only purpose in my still being here is the stories and the people who come to read them. About all else, I no longer care.
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NoogDeNoog
- Youngling
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Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
They say quite a lot, i fyou can, try to pick up WEG imperial sourcebook. I think I have seen some on ebay. It describes the different types of units, command structure, and numerical structure. Personally, I think it is one of the better sourcebooks ever made.ExarKun wrote:What do the source books say about regular army order of battle? I understand the small numbers of shock troops, but I hope the army is bigger and has different organizational structure. A legion smaller or slightly bigger than a Roman legion looks absurd.
If I get time later in the week, I will post some of it unless someone has a link or a file they want to post.
When the sourcebooks say that the Stormtroopers comform to the army OB, I think they mean by unit structure , ie, platoons into companies and companies into battalions. Then they make sure to point out that Stormtrooper battalions form into divisions whereas Imperial army battalions form into regiment. Another difference being that Stormtrooper divisions form into legions and army regiments form into battlegroups. They also state that Old Republic divisions, which were the same strength wise as legions and battlegroups, are not used anymore. As I have already posted, it states that vehicles are not manned by Stormtroopers, but by army personnel.
Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
heh, Napoleonic Wars and WWI are the only conflicts that I have surface knowledge off...Eleventh Century Remnant wrote:You'd hate the Napoleonic Wars, then; there was a conscious harking back to Roman virtue in some circles, the militant bourgeoisie mainly, that resulted in a whole slew of Romanesque references.
It resulted in a wild variety of semi- organised units having the name 'Legion' applied to them, everything from the infamous Black Legion- who had been dragged out of Paris jails to fight for their country, and were more or less a light infantry batallion- through what were later referred to as 'demi-brigades volontaires', departmental militia formations of whatever was to hand, to combined militia/regular units of all arms roughly seven to eight thousand strong at full establishment that resembled a very early regimental combat team.
I mention this for two points; sometimes organisation isn't really all that organised- and was it a similar sort of appeal to ancient Republican (
In any case, the problem is that the Imperial Sourcebook actually primarily describes the regular army order of battle, and then states that stormtroopers broadly conform to it- which means there should be a hell of a lot of stromtrooper- manned repulsortanks out there somewhere, and leaves no place at all for the combat walkers directly observed to work with them.
Then the rebel alliance specops book, in describing what the Alliance has to go up against, says something entirely different.
There is a confusion of sources here, and they're both S-canon. The existence of the clone troopers as seen on camera, and their loadout and capabilities, supersedes them both.
From that I take the theory that the Stormtrooper Corps is more than a simple low- intensity warfare optimised, fancy toy tricked out leg outfit; they are combined arms, and they have a critical role to play as the Empire's first response. Because of the fleet basing, because of their doctrinal adaptations, they can react much faster than the Army.
Minor outbreak of rebellion? Rebel base detected on a barren outworld? A Fleet Marine Force can be there in half an hour. Planet declared for the Republic? Might have to wait another hour for more destroyers to arrive. Or a neck-or-nothing assault with what can be moved, this second, to get down before they bring their shields online. It could take days for the army to round everyone up, load up, and send a corps level troopship.
My problem with the number presented is that it is made to look like legions are the main maneuvering force of the army and the highest organizational unit. They simply look too small to operate independently on a Star Wars scale. I'd expect an army to have millions of troops with specialized corps, legions, or divisions within, and at least an army group per sector as a main occupation/assault force with the ones stationed aboard Star Destroyers as a rapid response force, like you posted above.
The way they are organized, they are spread out too thinly. There are no armored legions, no artillery legions. Whatever happened to concentration of force, rapid maneuver, flexibility, initiative (how do they exploit breakthroughs, by sprinting?), economy of force? I can't believe that frontal assault was the only tactic they ever employed, although that is the only thing ever shown on screen.
I don't know...there is just a creeping feeling of "minimalism" screaming somewhere in the back of my head.
Re: Stormtrooper order of battle
Thanks, I'll see if it's in the bookstore next time I'm in, I'm short on money, so I'd have to read there.NoogDeNoog wrote:They say quite a lot, i fyou can, try to pick up WEG imperial sourcebook. I think I have seen some on ebay. It describes the different types of units, command structure, and numerical structure. Personally, I think it is one of the better sourcebooks ever made.ExarKun wrote:What do the source books say about regular army order of battle? I understand the small numbers of shock troops, but I hope the army is bigger and has different organizational structure. A legion smaller or slightly bigger than a Roman legion looks absurd.
If I get time later in the week, I will post some of it unless someone has a link or a file they want to post.
When the sourcebooks say that the Stormtroopers comform to the army OB, I think they mean by unit structure , ie, platoons into companies and companies into battalions. Then they make sure to point out that Stormtrooper battalions form into divisions whereas Imperial army battalions form into regiment. Another difference being that Stormtrooper divisions form into legions and army regiments form into battlegroups. They also state that Old Republic divisions, which were the same strength wise as legions and battlegroups, are not used anymore. As I have already posted, it states that vehicles are not manned by Stormtroopers, but by army personnel.