SW ground forces vs WH40k ground forces

[PainRack]

Assuming an Army from SW has been despatched to fight over an Earth like planet. in an arena setting against the respective WH40k faction of roughly equal numbers/industrial strength.. So, against the Nids, they probably be outnumbered significantly but they have heavier advanced weaponery and the like.


So, how would you configure such an army? Assuming one army from the NR era and another from the Imperial Endor era.

[white_rabbit]

Almost 200 views

I'd suggest something more specific painrack.

[Lord Relvenous]

Yeah, this is very open ended, making it a little hard to respond to.

[Connor MacLeod]

Here's a suggestion. Why don't you define a specific SW level force (EG like an Imperial Army systems army or something) and we can work form there. I mean in 40K there's a shit ton of variation even if we just restricted ourselves to the Imperium. We could go with Napoleonic formations or feral close combat warriors, or to something liek the Cadians or Elysians. Hell, the Space Marines are all doctrinally different and would differ from a conventional military force.

[Feil]

Long story short: So far as I know it, Star Wars' order of magnitude advantage in firepower, acceleration, logistics, and manufacturing capability (and corresponding ability to withstand that firepower) applies for ground weapons and air support just as it does in outer space, and is more than sufficient to tip the balance against a 40k field army of similar composition, despite the use of magic powers, except in contrived situations where those magic powers are pervasive or unusually potent. Exceptions for the Tyranids, whose notion of a field army is a million-strong mass of conservation-of-mass-defying monsters with claws that can slice through tank armor, the Necrons, whose discovery on a world constitutes grounds for saying "fuck it" and nuking the site from orbit, and the Space Marines, who shoot themselves in the eye five times a day with a .45 magnum because you never know when you'll need to beat someone to death with your cornea.

[Darth Wong]

It always seemed to me that even if all else failed, someone working with Star Wars technology could just fire up some of the old war droid factories and start churning out death machines. If they ramp up production with the resources at their disposal, they could pour trillions of war droids onto a planet; enough to overrun virtually any resistance through sheer numbers if necessary.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

So, how would you configure such an army? Assuming one army from the NR era and another from the Imperial Endor era.

seems to suggest that this is less a traditional question of "Who would win!!!" and a somewhat more academic (in a sense) question of logistics and strategy.

If that is in fact what this is, I'll try to answer it from the 40k perspective:

Assuming a mixed Imperial effort, standing against an Empire force similar to that seen invading Hoth, I'd want a reasonably balanced mix of the more militant Imperial formations. Now, it may seem obvious that one would want something "balanced", but I want to be clear that this force would need to be as flexible as possible in order to counter the Empire's advantages in coordination and combined-arms doctrine, and that means maintaining a good mix of specific Imperial forces without relying too heavily on one or the other. Chiefly, this would consist of three major elements:

• An Imperial Navy detachment of air support
• A central core of some of the more practical and 'modernized' Imperial Guard units
• A strike force of Space Marines to serve as shock troops and quickly-mobilized reserves

The Imperium has a clear deficiency in combined-arms, as all major battlefield roles are strictly segregated: Air support, infantry, mechanized infantry, armor, airborne infantry and close air support, artillery, and special forces.

The Navy and Space Marines cover the first and last, respectively, and each of the other functions must be assumed by entirely discrete Imperial Guard units, albeit with a small amount of overlap. Getting this force to work together fluidly will be difficult.

Accordingly, much of the onus will rest upon the Navy (and Guard artillery) to keep as much pressure on Empire forces as possible so as to reduce their capability to execute their own plans efficiently, and the Space Marines to act decisively and react to any problems. I'd split the Marine force roughly in two, using half offensively to cause as much damage as possible to clear the way for any advancing Guard, and the other half kept in reserve.

The rest is essentially up to the Guard. Infantry dig in (a la Hoth?) around any strong points or objectives and remain essentially immobile - foot-slogging will be useless against the mobility and firepower of the Empire forces. Airborne infantry will work in concert with the advancing Marines, quickly securing any gains they make, who are then in turn reinforced by the mechanized infantry, who in turn are supported and protected by armor.

Obviously, without numbers any more precise than we've been given, it's difficult to determine exactly what will go on from there.

[white_rabbit]

the Necrons, whose discovery on a world constitutes grounds for saying "fuck it" and nuking the site from orbit

Hyperbole aside, this isn't strictly the case. Some Necron installations are clearly degraded in function, I believe one example has the locals treating the regular Necron assaults almost as training exercises, because presumably its just Necron warriors lumbering into battle like the various retard level CIS commanders have their droids do.

Sure, they've got awesome guns and are really tough, but even PDF guys can sit behind their fortifications and zap them with heavy weapons if there isn't some intangible ghost-murder bot version, or teleporter slicing them up at the same time.

A strike force of Space Marines to serve as shock troops and quickly-mobilized reserves

You don't really need to tap the marines for that sort of thing, although obviously, they are the most capable shock troops around. There are plenty of entirely airmobile shocktroop formations, taking the Elysians as an example, who would serve in that function, including the ability to drop in mechanised stuff alongside them in the form of sentinels etc.

Although to be honest, mobility is only an issue for the Imperial guard in context with the guys they are facing, Dropships abound that can take anything from a few squads, to entire regiments onboard rapidly.

Obviously guys like the Eldar are in a situation where every armoured vehicle virtually gets to double as a gunship, the Nids are bio-forming the planet anyway, Necrons range from CIS level opponents to teleporting doom robots, orks are something you'd prefer to bomb from orbit, and Chaos can incorporate all of the above.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Er... I'm not sure, but I would dare say that a Titan Legion might present some serious range of fire options for Imperium forces, never mind that if appointed under a capable Imperial General (equiped with a Leviathan to provide command and control) or Space Marine commander who knows Combined Arms tactics well, would pose some serious threat to an Empire force.

Also, for the most part, heaviest bit of artillery the Empire could bring to the field is a SPHA, which I doubt outranges anything the Imperium has.

[white_rabbit]

Er... I'm not sure, but I would dare say that a Titan Legion might present some serious range of fire options for Imperium forces, never mind that if appointed under a capable Imperial General (equiped with a Leviathan to provide command and control)

Well, if a Titan Legion is providing the muscle, then the Princeps in command would probably be equipped to provide command and control. Imperator titans have things like astropathic choirs for example, which gives them an unjammable (by the Empire at least) sensor and communications array.

Leviathans appear on the battlefield at a regimental level sometimes, the Krieg armoured regiment detailed in Imperial Armour has one attached as the regimental HQ for the Colonel.

Also, for the most part, heaviest bit of artillery the Empire could bring to the field is a SPHA, which I doubt outranges anything the Imperium has.

Isn't there some AT-AT dwarfing repulsor lift gun of doom mentioned in a tech manual ?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

You don't really need to tap the marines for that sort of thing,

If I'm fighting the Galactic Empire I do. I don't want roughly comparable or "adequate", I want an overwhelming advantage for the lynchpin of my strategy.

Besides, I already have a role for airborne infantry (such as Elysians) in my strategy. I need them to hold the stuff that the Marines take while heavier infantry is en route, so that the Marines don't need to sit around on their thumbs. Valkyries and light infantry are fine for this task, but they wouldn't make a very good dedicated assault force against the Empire. The Empire troops are too mobile and too coordinated for a 'conventional' airborne assault to have much success.

[white_rabbit]

If I'm fighting the Galactic Empire I do. I don't want roughly comparable or "adequate", I want an overwhelming advantage for the lynchpin of my strategy.

*shrug*

All I'm saying is that the Guard usually send Stormtroopers, Grenadier squads, or indeed entire regiments equipped for that sort of thing. These guys are more than capable of chewing up their Imperial equivalents I would think.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Leviathans appear on the battlefield at a regimental level sometimes, the Krieg armoured regiment detailed in Imperial Armour has one attached as the regimental HQ for the Colonel.

In some cases, apparently entire regiments headed by a General, might have as many as 3 Leviathans under his command. One of the recent Ultramarines books had a regiment that settled on a planet and there were something like 3 Leviathans rusting away.

Isn't there some AT-AT dwarfing repulsor lift gun of doom mentioned in a tech manual ?

I'm not sure, but even in Empire at War, there was a reduced and smaller version of the SPHA that was deployed by the Army of the Republic. The reason given if I recall, was mobility.

I'm not sure how the firepower would compare to the main guns of say an Imperator or a Warlord Titan, or some of the missiles they might carry.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Besides, I already have a role for airborne infantry (such as Elysians) in my strategy. I need them to hold the stuff that the Marines take while heavier infantry is en route, so that the Marines don't need to sit around on their thumbs. Valkyries and light infantry are fine for this task, but they wouldn't make a very good dedicated assault force against the Empire. The Empire troops are too mobile and too coordinated for a 'conventional' airborne assault to have much success.

How mobile is mobile? The fastest speed the AT-AT can make is something like 60km/h. That is hardly much faster than the fastest armored vehicle the Imperium has.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Strategic and logistical mobility, not tactical. Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Strategic and logistical mobility, not tactical. Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.

Yes, but I am not too clear on what sort of logistics you are talking about. We have no knowledge of the sort of logistical train the Empire possesses beyond the shipbourne logistics. If we assume the armies are to function on their own on the planet, this is itself a massive constraint. The Empire has to maintain in fact two types of fuel lines: Tibanna gas, and whatever the use for fuel to drive starfighters and so forth. Bearing in mind that we have yet to see any serious ground transport or repulsorlift transport designed to refuel any of the Empire's vehicles.

The Imperium on the other hand, just needs a shit tonne of promethium, maybe plasma and ammunition, and we know there are vehicles that carry these that are known to keep pace behind any moving army.

[PainRack]

Lol. Point taken.....

The problem is taking a viable point of comparison. The Imperial operational unit is a Legion, which comes out to 8000 plus troopers.legion. The Imperium equivalent is a Regiment, which has anywhere from 2 thousand to 20 thousand troopers.
Even so, their strategic scope and scale are still vastly different. The Imperial Legion is approximately an Army battlegroup, explicitly designated as a strategic force whereas the Imperium force is anywhere from a tactical to an operational force in the Imperium scale of warfare.... This even while their scope of duties are "approximately" the same. Ditto to the scope of other races armies.

seems to suggest that this is less a traditional question of "Who would win!!!" and a somewhat more academic (in a sense) question of logistics and strategy.

Well..... I think the field I'm looking at is more of in the operational sense?
Ok, let's try this on for size. As part of the Imperial Chief staffs, your job is to design an Imperial Army to conquer and then hold a planet from an equivalent Wh40k force. To design such a unit however, you need to decide on its overall strategy to fight against the Wh40k force, then details like what kind of equipment, in what numbers are you going to allocate to which equivalent formations so that you could achieve your overall strategy, and then train said units in the tactics involved. And of course, you're going to have to assign appropriate logistics and technical support so that your force could execute its tactics and operational doctrine, but I don't think its necessary to explicitly outline and describe such logistic units, just the acceptance that such units must exist, along with the need to organise this in your overall force.

Well, just to simplify matters, how about an Imperial System Army vs an equivalent Imperium Regiment up to 20 thousand strong, , A Tau task force, Eldar, Necron and etc at approximately equal numbers? For the Orks and Tyrannids though, let's assume that the Imperial forces are outnumbered 5 to 1.

[PainRack]

In some cases, apparently entire regiments headed by a General, might have as many as 3 Leviathans under his command. One of the recent Ultramarines books had a regiment that settled on a planet and there were something like 3 Leviathans rusting away.

Killing Ground has the heroes stating that the 3 Leviathans forming the medicae complex were those left behind by the Crusade units, abandoned in place so as to speak. This means that not all of those units were assigned to one regiment alone.

How mobile is mobile? The fastest speed the AT-AT can make is something like 60km/h. That is hardly much faster than the fastest armored vehicle the Imperium has.

The AT-AT appears to be more of a siege or heavy APC, meant to provide maximum protection while advancing against fortifications. Other mobile forces exist, such as Chariots, Flying Fortresses, the standard shuttles/assault gunships including LAAT.MAAT and speeders.
As White Rabbit points out though, the IG could be just as mobile, although repulsors may give the Empire an technological advantage. The Eldar and the Marines however possess equivalent technological aids such as Land Speeders and Thunderhawks, although the Flying Fortress "may" be more heavily protected.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The AT-AT appears to be more of a siege or heavy APC, meant to provide maximum protection while advancing against fortifications. Other mobile forces exist, such as Chariots, Flying Fortresses, the standard shuttles/assault gunships including LAAT.MAAT and speeders.
As White Rabbit points out though, the IG could be just as mobile, although repulsors may give the Empire an technological advantage. The Eldar and the Marines however possess equivalent technological aids such as Land Speeders and Thunderhawks, although the Flying Fortress "may" be more heavily protected.

Flying Fortresses may be fast but I doubt their armor compares well with an AT-AT which I recall has starship grade armor.

Also, the Imperium does have grav tanks, even though they aren't as well described. And Grav tanks often sacrifice armor. Of course, if one were to toss in the Eldar's super heavy grav tanks....

[PainRack]

Just to clarify one point.

Ok, let's try this on for size. As part of the Imperial Chief staffs, your job is to design an Imperial Army to conquer and then hold a planet from an equivalent Wh40k force.

Your job is to design an Imperial Army, which will have as its objective to conquer and hold a planet.

It will not be the "SOLE" unit to participate in such a battle, which suggests an arena setting. While I'm looking at a force on force comparison, we're looking at the whole scope of a battle which occurs for various strategic reasons other than let's fight. And similarly, the topic isn't meant to be a debate about which army will win, rather, its how competent generals will configure, organise and train their force to fight against another equivalent force.

[PainRack]

Flying Fortresses may be fast but I doubt their armor compares well with an AT-AT which I recall has starship grade armor.

Also, the Imperium does have grav tanks, even though they aren't as well described. And Grav tanks often sacrifice armor. Of course, if one were to toss in the Eldar's super heavy grav tanks....

Flying Fortresses are APCs, although I question whether they could also fulfill the role of an IFV. They certainly aren't tanks.

And that said, while Imperial Forces may be better equipped to be more mobile than the IG, there is again the issue of whether the IG is less airmobile than the Empire in terms of capabilities..... Certainly, the constant use of armoured shuttles that has roll on, roll off capabilities for tanks give the Imperium advanced mobile capabilities.

[Ryan Thunder]

Ah. A few legions of Stormtroopers, and a Death Star's worth of Imperial Army line troops supported by flying fortresses, TIE Fighter CAS, and a Star Destroyer or two for good measure, then.

[PainRack]

Ah. A few legions of Stormtroopers, and a Death Star's worth of Imperial Army line troops supported by flying fortresses, TIE Fighter CAS, and a Star Destroyer or two for good measure, then.

Other than the fact that such a force is WAY too large for a system Army...
What is the doctrine of such a force? How is it organised so as to execute the doctrine and tactics?

[Ryan Thunder]

Other than the fact that such a force is WAY too large for a system Army...

Really? I must be confused, then, because I was under the impression that the Death Star carried a few tens of millions of troops...

Should be significant but not impossible for an entire star system.

What is the doctrine of such a force? How is it organised so as to execute the doctrine and tactics?

I'm afraid I have no idea.

Have I misunderstood the question?

[starfury]

Flying Fortresses are APCs, although I question whether they could also fulfill the role of an IFV. They certainly aren't tanks.

You can Also use the CLone wars era A6 Juggernaut instead of the AT-AT, since smaller variants remained even as the larger versions were phased out for AT-AT it seems.