RDMs great plan : Pander to everyone ?

[Zac Naloen]

But then it gradually turned into, "yep, god did it. End of story." Too easy and too pat and all around unsatisfying.

Sorry, but it was still plenty ambiguous at the end as far as I am concerned.

[Anguirus]

^ When did the open-ended-ness get lost? I mean, of the two angels, one of them acts like an atheist himself. And Adama, the central character of the show, is always an atheist, and the only thing he admits to is "something powerful and wacky is going on behind the scenes." Which was frankly obvious.

It's actually a bit striking that nobody starts worshipping God because he brought them to Earth. Not even Starbuck. The only people who start worshipping God are Baltar (direct contact from monotheist angel) and his groupies. If RDM was a closeted C.S. Lewis, I think the show could have been a lot more obnoxious.

My theory about a lot of the weirder stuff in the finale is that they were the parts that were decided ages ago (I believe RDM when he says that the final shot of the series was going to be Six + Baltar in Times Square since season 1, if only because the last thirty minutes of the show is so crammed in order to get to that exact point). This ties into the premise of the original show very strongly: there are "supernatural" beings in the background with an agenda they must exercise through the little people and that we here on Earth are descended from them out in space. The finale hastily explains away why there isn't still a fleet lying around and how the Colonials managed to survive on Earth and incorporate themselves into our lives. What I think RDM & company may have miscalculated was to what extent the show had become its own entity, able to stand alone from the original. They could have been a lot more daring with the ultimate connection between Earth (2) and the Colonies, without resorting to miracle/insane coincidence and leaving the characters to a somewhat grim fate.

[Gramzamber]

Well we know RDM liked referencing the oBSG Seraphs like in those halluncinations about the final five.
Me, I would've taken it to it's logical conclusion - have the Seraphs appear after some point and be control freak masterminds seeking to manipulate both the Cylons and Colonials.

[Starglider]

The most damning luddism of BSG isn't actually in the finale, it's about half-way through season five, where Cavil gives the speech about the supernova. He explicitly describes how being stuck in a human body is stupid, limiting and completely unnecessary. It actually would be a fairly good argument for transhumanism if it wasn't for the 'evil paste' generously slathered all over it by the writers. Then Ellen says 'you're wrong, god wanted it that way, also I wanted it that way so you could love'. And of course Cavil dies in shame and Ellen gets plot vindication and retires to noble savage eden with her husband, just so that it's completely clear which viewpoint is virtuous and which is satantic.

So I reiterate, fuck you RDM, and any transhumanist who disagrees with that is on a schizophrenic denial trip.

[Anguirus]

I'll be sure and let her know, thanks.

[Thanas]

Geez, Starglider. Bitter much?

I am pretty sure that Transhumanism was not on Moore's agenda at all. I mean, when did it ever play a real role in the show? As Moore said, this show was about characters and their journey first and foremost. Heck, the entire finale is about that with the whole flashback scenes.

Transhumanism is not the focal point of BSG. I mean, before this thread, I did not even know it supposedly was a plot point of BSG.

[Starglider]

Geez, Starglider. Bitter much?

I enjoy the occasional rant. It's a guilty pleasure.

I am pretty sure that Transhumanism was not on Moore's agenda at all.

I don't think Moore had any sort of 'agenda'. Most TV shows don't. The writers just pick a set of themes which they think viewers will like. Most viewers like to cheer humans over aliens, and human values over alien values.

I mean, when did it ever play a real role in the show?

Uploading, full organism genetic engineering and cybernetics are all integral parts of the setting. Most space opera series virtually ignore them (e.g. Trek, where they turn up in the odd episode as villains to be defeated). If there were more positive examples to balance out all the eeeevil transhumanists I would be less annoyed, but frankly it's hard to think of any positive examples at all in televised sci-fi.

Transhumanism is not the focal point of BSG.

If you want you can dismiss every single bit of sci-fi in BSG as window dressing on a soap opera, but the themes are there and influence people's opinions regardless.

[Bilbo]

Uploading, full organism genetic engineering and cybernetics are all integral parts of the setting. Most space opera series virtually ignore them (e.g. Trek, where they turn up in the odd episode as villains to be defeated). If there were more positive examples to balance out all the eeeevil transhumanists I would be less annoyed, but frankly it's hard to think of any positive examples at all in televised sci-fi.

Except the humanform Cylons were not transhumans. They were manufactured human replicants who happen to look human and were designed to fool medical scanners. They cannot reproduce (one fluke does not demonstrate a real ability), they do not grow up but were formed at adult age, the list could go on and on.

Wouldnt the Masterchief of Halo be considered a transhuman hero? Its not a normal human under the suit but one that has been improved in multiple areas.

Overall though you are right, genetically enhanced heroes, or goodguys in general, are very rare in fiction.

[Samuel]

Except the humanform Cylons were not transhumans.

He was refering to Cavil.

Wouldnt the Masterchief of Halo be considered a transhuman hero? Its not a normal human under the suit but one that has been improved in multiple areas.

I don't think so- isn't most of the modification done by tinkering with puberty and the like?

[Stofsk]

But then it gradually turned into, "yep, god did it. End of story." Too easy and too pat and all around unsatisfying.

Sorry, but it was still plenty ambiguous at the end as far as I am concerned.

How was the end ambiguous?

[loomer]

Actually, Spartan-IIs have (from the wiki):

-Reinforced skeletal structure via surgery. Up to 3% of their bonemass is reinforced with metal and ceramic layers.
-A 'catalytic thyroid implant', which is apparently a platinum pellet containing HGH catalysts, injected into the thyroid, to encourage skeletal and muscular growth. It also shrinks their balls.
-'Superconducting fabrication of neural dendrites' with some unknown substance, but I'm guessing it's distinctly artificial.

There's a couple of others that are organic in nature. It's all pretty nebulous and undefined in exact effect or mechanism, but it does appear they're not 100% 'human'.

[Bilbo]

Except the humanform Cylons were not transhumans.

He was refering to Cavil.

Wouldnt the Masterchief of Halo be considered a transhuman hero? Its not a normal human under the suit but one that has been improved in multiple areas.

I don't think so- isn't most of the modification done by tinkering with puberty and the like?

How is Cavil any different? He was manufactured like the rest. The main problem being that while the Five built decent bodies for the humanforms they failed miserably in creating personalities unless those were supplied by the toasters.

[Zac Naloen]

But then it gradually turned into, "yep, god did it. End of story." Too easy and too pat and all around unsatisfying.

Sorry, but it was still plenty ambiguous at the end as far as I am concerned.

How was the end ambiguous?

I missed the part where they outright said, psst this is definitely the Judeo Christian God.

[Gramzamber]

I missed the part where they outright said, psst this is definitely the Judeo Christian God.

That isn't even the point, is it? The heart of the matter is it's just a massive copout.
It doesn't matter if it's Yahweh or Zeus or mighty space aliens, the point is they just go and say "ho ho, [insert extra-planlar entity here] did it with it's ANGELS.". It's boring and lazy storytelling.

That it was the monotheistic Christian God is pretty much implied though.

[Zac Naloen]

That it was the monotheistic Christian God is pretty much implied though.

It really wasn't though, was it?


The point though for is that I think people are actually attributing too much of the plot outcome to this supposed God character. What do we know he actually did?

He sent "Angels" to talk to the characters, and he probably created human life through genetic engineering.

He shut down the fleet so he could send Starbuck in?

He didn't cause Cavil to be a dick and he didn't cause the truce to break down.

He seemed to want the humans to learn some sort of lesson, but in the end he failed because the Humans fucked it all up. So he tried again.

As far as I can tell his plan keeps going wrong because humans keep wiping each other out.

[Gramzamber]

As far as I can tell his plan keeps going wrong because humans keep wiping each other out.

Well this goes back to, humans forgetting what the hell they did wrong in the first place.
An aspect which this "God" seems to approve of, if not outright engineer.

[Zac Naloen]

Or he's a dick who doesn't really care how many people die before he gets his idea of a perfect galaxy.


I don't think he's a great guy or anything, but I see no reason to consider him a God. Nor do I see any reason to assume the ending of the story was an act of God either.

The humans and Cylons fucked up Mr Wizards plan and seemingly not for the first time, he's not a very good God is he?

[Mayabird]

When I say ambiguous, I don't mean "was it the Judeo-Christian god or some other god or an alien that might as well be a god for all its meddling in the background and inscrutable ways." That's all "god did it," which is what the ending was. It should be like when Bender met God in Futurama and said, "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." Like in the first season. We should be able to debate whether there were actually religious thingies in the background doing things, or if it was just coincidence that they in-universe interpreted as religious thingies happening, but we can't unless someone's being a semantics whore and that doesn't really count.

[Zac Naloen]

The only outcome of the plot that was "Gods" was the complete failure of his plan to get the machines and humans to be one big happy family which led to all the horrible luddite crap when they got to earth.


So i'm really not convinced that "God did it and that's shite" is the correct criticism. God tried to do it and failed, big time. Cavil, in particular, and a few of the other Humans kept fucking his plan up by being massive douches.

If Gods plan had worked we'd actually have had the happy ending.

[PeZook]

As far as I can tell his plan keeps going wrong because humans keep wiping each other out.

Then he went about it in a completely asinine way. Why couldn't the angels simply have contacted someone else other than Gaius freakin' Baltar? Like Lee Adama, before he had his insane luddite idea of teaching tribal primitives "the best parts of ourselves"?

The only thing which made humans constantly kill everyone was that they didn't know about all the other times it happened, so that they could either not develop robot life, or treat it as actual people so that they wouldn't rebel.

It's another thing if he's a total dickhead who enjoys fucking with entire civilizations, but that doesn't seem to be the case with Angel-Baltar and Angel-Six talking in the end. Unless he doesn't tell them everything, of course.

[Zac Naloen]

All the stuff about how God loves them from Ellen and the other cylons very much struck me as her belief system only. He frankly, obviously doesn't give a shit about them as individuals.

Harvey Six: "Let a complex system repeat itself long enough, eventually something surprising might occur. That, too, is in God's plan."
Harvey Gaius: "You know he doesn't like that name. Silly me. Silly, silly me."

You mean this conversation?

I hadn't noticed that bit where he chastises himself. I wonder if the two Angels are actually one person.

[Bilbo]

All the stuff about how God loves them from Ellen and the other cylons very much struck me as her belief system only. He frankly, obviously doesn't give a shit about them as individuals.

Harvey Six: "Let a complex system repeat itself long enough, eventually something surprising might occur. That, too, is in God's plan."
Harvey Gaius: "You know he doesn't like that name. Silly me. Silly, silly me."

You mean this conversation?

I hadn't noticed that bit where he chastises himself. I wonder if the two Angels are actually one person.

That little bit at the end there just told me that all of this was an ant farm and God or whatever actually didnt care one way or another how things turned out.

[Thanas]

Doesn't the conversationg goes like "You know it[/i] doesn't like that name?" Because Iirc it was used as speculation that "god" may just be a vastly advanced machine civilization.

[Zac Naloen]

I can't remember I'm not getting the full blu ray set until christmas, I ripped that from a transcript though.

[Crown]

^ When did the open-ended-ness get lost? I mean, of the two angels, one of them acts like an atheist himself. And Adama, the central character of the show, is always an atheist, and the only thing he admits to is "something powerful and wacky is going on behind the scenes." Which was frankly obvious.

Yeah, the writers.