H1N1 Vaccine, take it or not?

[His Divine Shadow]

So the government here in Finland is offering us free vaccine shots for the swine flu (well to begin with, people in risk groups) and it has sparked some debate. Discussions seems to be raging pretty hard right now on online debate forums and newspapers. I have identified the three main viewpoints as:

• Vaccines are dangerous OMG mercury argleblarghle it's a conspiracy.
• You should take the vaccine because the swine flu is more severe than regular flu.
• You should not bother taking the vaccine unless you are young, old or weakened because the swine flu is no more dangerous than a regular flu.

The news seems to both report the swine flu as more severe than regular flu and no more severe depending on who and what you are reading. It's hard to get your bearings in this sea of unreliable information.

Hence I am asking SDN since we tend to have people who might be a bit more in the know-how. Who here is going to take the flu vaccine? Anyone not going to take it? Care to elaborate why you will take / not take the vaccine?

[Broomstick]

The current version of the swine flu making the rounds is more contagious than the usual seasonal flu, but for most people it is actually a milder illness.

HOWEVER - the pattern of severe illness/death with the swine flu is different than the usual seasonal flu. The last time the swine flu made the rounds was the mid 1970's - those who were alive then seem to have some residual resistance to the virus. The result has been a skewing of complications and death away from the elderly and towards the young. If you are under 40 you have zero resistance to this virus. So, your age makes a significant difference. If you're my age (I was around in the 70's) it is more likely to be a mild illness than if you're 20.

That said, if you DO have a complication or a severe version of the swine flu you are more likely to die from it than from other flu strains. If it gets bad, it gets bad very quickly. In my area we've had people die in less than 48 hours from first symptoms to the end. Pregnant women are especially vulnerable to this virus. The next group where we've seen an unusual number of severe cases and deaths is school children all the way up through college age. The swiftness with which death has occurred in some otherwise very healthy young people is making the epidemiologists wiggy, as it resembles the 1918 flu pandemic which no one wants to see a repeat of. Right now, that sort of rapid death is rare, and every hopes it stays that way.

What this means is that it is entirely possible for healthy 20 year old to be a greater risk than some 60 year old geezer with emphysema and heat disease because the old geezer's body has dealt with swine flu before and will respond more appropriately than the young guy's body.

I myself am not getting vaccinated because I am allergic to the vaccine and anaphylaxis sucks. If the vaccine didn't pose a risk to me due to my allergies, however, I would take it in a heart beat. I would strongly encourage anyone who can get a vaccination to get one, especially if you're under 40 years of age, spend significant time around pregnant women, school age children, or anyone medically vulnerable.

[SCRawl]

I'm going to get it. My kids are young (3 and 5), and I might as well take care of myself while they get their shot. I also have to be around little kids when I do my "duty days" for my youngest's preschool, so it's in the community's interests for me to do so as well. I'm 38, and so might not have been exposed during the last time the swine flu came a-calling, as Broomstick pointed out.

I can't really imagine a reason why I wouldn't get the shot.

[open_sketchbook]

I'm in, but I also have no problem with needles or vaccines. My little sister is upstairs right now with a fever and it's a constant reminder of the importance of vaccines; what if I transmit H1N1 to her after I pick it up at school? People forget that others can pay the price for not getting vaccinated.

[Grog]

Is there actually any good reason not to take it if you can, if you are not stupid or selfish (given that you have no allergies and so on)?

[PeZook]

Is there actually any good reason not to take it if you can, if you are not stupid or selfish (given that you have no allergies and so on)?

It will give you autism.

Also, there's been government coverups when people died from vaccine testing. And it's really the NWO's plan to reduce world population by 90% for...some reason.

Other than that, no. It's just a flu vaccine - there was a time when I was wary of it, too, since I thought it was some super-special medication developed in an emergency fashion, but it's just a flu shot made for a somewhat different viral group.

BTW, Spanish Flu was also caused by a virus from the AH1N1 group. It also was rather mild in the first wave, so there's always possibility of it mutating.

Myself, I'm getting the H1N1 vaccine as soon as it's available in Poland.

[The Spartan]

I'm getting one next Friday. My mom works at a hospital where she can get it for family members at a discount so I'm going to go ahead and get a dose.

In the past I haven't worried about it because I didn't view the flu as overly serious, I have a strong immune system and I was young(er). Now, well, if it does mutate, I want to have at least some antibodies swimming in my body.

[PeZook]

In the past I haven't worried about it because I didn't view the flu as overly serious, I have a strong immune system and I was young(er). Now, well, if it does mutate, I want to have at least some antibodies swimming in my body.

Also, in this particular case, a strong immune system is bad to have. Most cases have been mild so far, but if they go bad, they send the immune system into overdrive.

[The Spartan]

I hadn't heard that bit. In what way do you mean overdrive? As in it turns on the body in addition to the virus?

[PeZook]

I hadn't heard that bit. In what way do you mean overdrive? As in it turns on the body in addition to the virus?

It attacks even the cells that were not suborned by the virus, destroying your lungs and bronchial pathways. At least that was the case with the Spanish Flu mutation, hence why it killed mostly young, healthy men instead of the old and weakened people.

[tezunegari]

I'll get my shot either this coming weekend or the the following one.
I only have to find out when my family doctor has stand-by duty during a weekend.
(Commuting sucks and I don't want to pay practice charge at another practice )

The last time I got a vaccine I had complications (fever, nausea and headache) for about 2 days. (puking all over the school stairs and whole classes unknowingly walking into it is worth the discomfort - just makes me giggle, even after nearly a decade )

[The Spartan]

I hadn't heard that bit. In what way do you mean overdrive? As in it turns on the body in addition to the virus?

It attacks even the cells that were not suborned by the virus, destroying your lungs and bronchial pathways. At least that was the case with the Spanish Flu mutation, hence why it killed mostly young, healthy men instead of the old and weakened people.

Ah, I remember hearing about that, but I didn't know that it also the current strains ran that same risk.

[Solauren]

I will be getting flu shots when offered at work this year. (H1N1 + otherwise)

I have two young nephews, my grandmother is 78 and has half a lung (literally, lung cancer is such a bitch), and my wife works in a department/clothing store.

Quite frankly, I'd be surprised if I wasn't 'mid to high risk'.

[Darth Wong]

You know what's funny? Seeing conservatives on webboards who lambast global warming science using the usual "scientists don't know what they're talking about" and "I have no training but I can refute the scientific community based on Googling" and "dissident scientists are being suppressed by The Man" tactics, and then turning right around and attacking vaccine paranoia people for using those exact same fallacious tactics. It's downright painful to wade through some of the discussions on news sites about vaccines.

[Mr Bean]

First a personal note
I've already had both this seasons Flu shot as well as the H1N1 spray due to working in a Hospital.

If you've been following the H1N1 news as I have working alongside those who have been following it religiously. You would know or have heard that H1N1(AKA Swine Flu) comes in two variants. And by two variants I mean is that we've not identified why most people who catch H1N1 suffer through what could be called mild flu cases not requiring anything more than your average cold does in the way of treatment(Eat, Drink, rest). And why the second variant which got H1N1 such attention is the fact that untreated it will kill healthy adult people when it should be only killing the elderly and the very young.

That's the key difference. H1N1 can kill otherwise very healthy people due to what those who I spoke with about it called "over-reaction". IE your fever runs high enough to cook your brain. Your body goes so far into self defense it starts shutting down. A bad case of H1N1 requires hospital time and round the clock medical care as nurses try and keep your body from running away on itself. This secondary news making part of H1N1 is actually less dangerous to elderly people due to weaker immune systems. But to the 18-34 year old crowd it's a death sentence without medical care.

By all means you can not get the H1N1 shot. It's your choice. There's always a small chance of bad vaccine or allergic reaction or being struck by lightning on the way to getting the vaccine done. All risk is relative but trust me when I say H1N1 is no frigging joke if you catch the second variant. It's from the same family as a little thing know as the Spanish Flu which put a good deal of Europe into early graves.

[Alferd Packer]

Assuming I don't have the seasonal flu or H1N1 right now (started feeling crappy around 10 AM today), I'm going to get both. I actually wanted to get my seasonal shot out of the way this weekend but the local clinic was completely out. I figure I'll try again(for both) in two weeks.

I ride mass transit, so I figure I should do what I can to avoid spreading it there, as well as protect myself from inconsiderate pricks who go to work while still contagious.

[Tsyroc]

My hospital is starting off vaccinating people who deal directly with patients and then they'll move on to the rest of the employees. I'll be interested in getting it as soon as it's offered.

I already got the seasonal flu shot.

[The Romulan Republic]

I probably I won't get it, for a few reasons:

1. Never got flu shots before, can't be bothered to start now (not the best reason I know).

2. I figure their won't be enough vaccine for everyone, and their are other people who need it more.

3. For all the talk about swine flu, and despite the fact that it can be lethal to the young and healthy, only a tiny fraction of those who get it actually do die. Wasn't their a projection a little while back that about half of America would get it, and 90,000 would die, or something similar? Which would work out to less than 1 in a thousand?

Sure, its a slight risk maybe, but I'm not too worried. Though, if I was still in Toronto taking the subway and going to crowded classes almost every day, I would be more likely to get the vaccine. And of course I'm trying to keep up to date on the flu, and if things get a lot worse maybe I'd get the vaccine.

[Broomstick]

Is there actually any good reason not to take it if you can, if you are not stupid or selfish (given that you have no allergies and so on)?

If there is a shortage of vaccine (and there is) then it can be argued that what vaccine is available should go particular groups (the vulnerable or to front-line healthcare workers) before it goes to the general population. In such a case, you might have a good reason to stand back and wait so someone in those designated groups can be vaccinated first.

[Broomstick]

The technical term for the immune overreaction is "cytokine storm". Influenza is not the only disease where it can occur. Basically, it's a matter of the the immune system becoming overstimulated, to the point that it starts to destroy the body as well as the infectious agent. The stronger your immune system the more violent the "storm" and the more likely it is to kill you. It can not be predicted who will have this complication and who won't, though clearly the healthiest are at highest risk of this particular problem.

It is believe that cytokine storms were a significant factor in the 1918 flu pandemic. Some of the deaths this year in young people appear to be cytokine storms, but it can occur with any strain of flu, not just swine flu or bird flu but "regular seasonal flu" as well. It also occurs in graft vs. host disease, ARDS, sepsis, smallpox, plague, and others.

Anyone with flu-like symptoms who becomes rapidly worse or starts to have breathing problems should be taken to a hospital immediately. Cytokine storms are imperfectly understood, but in the healthiest the only way to survive one is to have one's immune system suppressed by strong pharmaceuticals.

[aerius]

I'm already vaccinated, it would be pretty stupid if I weren't since I work at an airport where all the cases came in from Mexico when the whole swine flu thing started this spring. I'm on the front lines and some of my co-workers were already infected in the initial spring outbreak, we probably have dozens of infected people going through the airport every week so I'm not taking any chances.

[PainRack]

Also, in this particular case, a strong immune system is bad to have. Most cases have been mild so far, but if they go bad, they send the immune system into overdrive.

Ok. WAY too many people are harping on about ARDS and how having a strong immune system is bad. Here's a hint, it won't matter. While ARDS was the stunner that killed people quickly, the majority of people who die from flu, and a good proportion of people who did die in 1917 died from secondary complications such as pneumonia.
The key thing is adequate rest, adequate hydration and nutrition, monitoring of yourself and leave the rest to the doctors.

[PainRack]

That's the key difference. H1N1 can kill otherwise very healthy people due to what those who I spoke with about it called "over-reaction". IE your fever runs high enough to cook your brain. Your body goes so far into self defense it starts shutting down. A bad case of H1N1 requires hospital time and round the clock medical care as nurses try and keep your body from running away on itself. This secondary news making part of H1N1 is actually less dangerous to elderly people due to weaker immune systems. But to the 18-34 year old crowd it's a death sentence without medical care.

By all means you can not get the H1N1 shot. It's your choice. There's always a small chance of bad vaccine or allergic reaction or being struck by lightning on the way to getting the vaccine done. All risk is relative but trust me when I say H1N1 is no frigging joke if you catch the second variant. It's from the same family as a little thing know as the Spanish Flu which put a good deal of Europe into early graves.

Fever doesn't cook your brain. A very high fever just tells us that your body has a very bad infection. Brain damage is caused when toxins or actual inflamnation hurts the brain which are consequences of the infection itself, not the fever. The problem with running a high fever is that its exhausting. Old people and young children may not have the energy reserves to do so.

[Justforfun000]

I got hit with the Swine flu middle of last week. At least almost certainly. My doctor said it's hitting Ontario hard and the symptoms match up so well. Since Friday I've had to take Advil & Tylenol almost together...not even back to back, just to keep my temperature from going up to 104. For all I know, it could have reached higher...I've never let it..
Even that for the most part was keeping it around 102. It's a stubborn son of a bitch. I've been bed-ridden since Friday, Vomited repeatedly, coughed violently, diarrhea repeatedly. NOT fun. I can't remember the last time I ever got sick like this with flu.

My doctor gave me Tamiflu today and actually about 6 hours later I actually started feeling semi-normal. I was even able to walk a block to the store tonight. Yesterday that would been like asking me to climb Everest.

I'd strongly recommend you get the vaccine. The possible side effects of it couldn't POSSIBLY be as debilitating as this.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well my girlfriend got the shot last night. She was sceptical towards the vaccine, more so than me. Which is why I made this thread. But it turns out she was the first one to get the shot at her workplace (she works at a hospital). I suppose I'll go get it when I can.