Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Scalia also big fan of Blacks worth 3/5's of a white man clause
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One of the most conservative justices on the U.S. Supreme Court said Monday his more liberal colleagues are trying to manufacture new constitutional rights that were never intended by the drafters.

"The fight is about the Supreme Court inventing new rights nobody ever thought existed,'' Justice Antonin Scalia said in an appearance at the University of Arizona College of Law.

"Right to abortion?'' he asked. "Come on. Nobody thought it violated anything in the Constitution for 200 years. It was criminal.'' The same, said Scalia, is true of homosexual sodomy. Yet the nation's high court has struck down state laws banning both.

"They may be bad ideas,'' Scalia said. "But don't tell me it’s unconstitutional.''
But Justice Stephen Breyer, who shared the stage with Scalia, said his colleague was taking an overly literalistic approach to the 18th-century document. He said the changing nature of society, by necessity, requires more than looking at what Scalia called "originalism.''



"You don't look to the details,'' Breyer said. "You look to the value.''
For example, he said, flogging may have been legal even as the framers of the Constitution were banning "cruel and unusual punishment'' in the Eighth Amendment.
"I don't know the exact details of what everybody in the 18th century thought was cruel and unusual,'' Breyer said. He said that by enacting that particular ban, they enacted "a set of values, not a particular set of 18th century circumstances.'' And Breyer warned that using Scalia's approach, "it won't be a Constitution anyone will be able to live under.''



The pair traded barbs, sometimes with humor, over the course of an hour about whose approach to reading and analyzing the Constitution is correct. Scalia said the Constitution is meant to be an exception to democracy and the rule of the majority, whose views may change from time to time. He specifically warned that those who approach the Constitution as Breyer suggests will not always find courts expanding the definition of individual liberties. He said a court that decides one day that something is cruel and unusual punishment could just as easily decide down the road to allow something that now is considered barbaric. "It goes both ways,'' he said. "The only thing you can be sure of is the Constitution will mean whatever the American people want it to mean today,'' Scalia continued. "And that's not what a constitution is for. The whole purpose of a constitution is to constrain the desires of the current society.''
Scalia said those who do not share his "originalist'' philosophy are now deciding what the 14th Amendment of the Constitution means, the one that guarantees "equal protection of the laws'' to all citizens.



"Does it include same-sex marriage? A requirement for equal pay for equal work?'' he mused. Scalia said those who believe in an "evolutionary'' approach "close your eyes and decide what you think is a good idea. 'Using his "originalist'' philosophy, Scalia said he likely would have dissented from the historic 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision that declared school segregation illegal and struck down the system of "separate but equal'' public schools. He said that decision, which overturned earlier precedent, was designed to provide an approach the majority liked better.

"I will stipulate that it will,'' Scalia said. But he said that doesn't make it right. "Kings can do some stuff, some good stuff, that a democratic society could never do,'' he continued.



"Hitler developed a wonderful automobile,'' Scalia said. "What does that prove?''
Scalia said there needs to be some bedrock of principles that the document means.
He mentioned a 2005 high court decision that concluded it is unconstitutional to execute those who were younger than 18 when they committed their crimes. A decade earlier, Scalia said, the Supreme Court set the bar at 16.
"The next time it'll be 21,'' Scalia said. "Once you abandon the original understanding of the text, there is no other criteria.''
Scalia said even his 2001 decision outlawing the use of "thermal imaging'' equipment to let police peer through walls to see activity inside a house did not require him to use an evolutionary approach to the Constitution, even though such equipment did not exist in the 18th century.

"I did it by regarding what the framers would have thought about a technique that essentially intrudes into the house without the consent of the homeowners to find out what is going on in the house,'' Scalia said. "They clearly would have thought that was unlawful.''

He said there is a remedy for those who want different or broader rights: go to the Legislature. He said those bodies are free to decide whether abortion or homosexual activities should be legal.
Remember Scailia? He's the only American Supreme Court Justice to have his own sidekick, Justice Thomas who votes with him over ninety percent of the time. The only times he votes against is those rare 8 to 1 decisions which someone always end up with Scailia being the one dissenting judge.

What a nice man

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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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At least this guy is consistent about his idiotic Founding Fatherland worship. Most Founding Father wankers are horrendously inconsistent, and advocate modern revisions only when they happen to be popular among a certain demographic.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Were the entire bill of rights a reflection of the desires of the society when the US Constitution was drafted?
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Does Scalia always give the same speech? Because he tried that thing in Germany once and I remember it - the same words, the same arguments...

Of course, his speech didn't exactly go over that well in Berlin either.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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"Right to abortion?'' he asked. "Come on. Nobody thought it violated anything in the Constitution for 200 years. It was criminal.''
Abortion wasn't illegal in the US until the early 19th century.
"Kings can do some stuff, some good stuff, that a democratic society could never do,'' he continued.
Like what? While monarchies have the advantage of having everything in a family allowing long term planning and a strong desire to strengthen the state that can also be achieved by any government that has chief executives with long terms and a strong desire to leave their mark on history.
"Hitler developed a wonderful automobile,'' Scalia said. "What does that prove?''
Germany has good car companies?
He mentioned a 2005 high court decision that concluded it is unconstitutional to execute those who were younger than 18 when they committed their crimes. A decade earlier, Scalia said, the Supreme Court set the bar at 16.
"The next time it'll be 21,'' Scalia said. "Once you abandon the original understanding of the text, there is no other criteria.''
Yes, the law changes over time. If it was completely immutable we wouldn't need judges.
"I did it by regarding what the framers would have thought about a technique that essentially intrudes into the house without the consent of the homeowners to find out what is going on in the house,'' Scalia said. "They clearly would have thought that was unlawful.''
These are the same people that passed the Alien and Sedition Act. There is no reason for him to believe that the majority of the framers would have found it unlawful- even more so considering that the origional framers didn't want to have a bill of rights included with the consitution and only added it under pressure from the anti-federalists.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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It really does frighten me that Scalia's understanding and application of the law seem so superficial. He's a Supreme Court justice, and I'm some schmo on the Internet.
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This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Samuel wrote:
"Right to abortion?'' he asked. "Come on. Nobody thought it violated anything in the Constitution for 200 years. It was criminal.''
Abortion wasn't illegal in the US until the early 19th century.
Actually, even at the time of Roe v. Wade abortion was legal in some states. The notion that prior to Roe v. Wade abortion was somehow forbidden nationwide is based on ignorance of history.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

Post by Axis Kast »

Scalia's frame of reference is clearly that of a constitutional minimalist -- one who reads the document under the supposition that the Federal Government was established with a very narrow set of responsibilities and permissions. Rights, except in very particular circumstances, devolve to the individual states, and are essentially determined by popular will. Most of the Democratic Party believes differently: the government is champion, using the Constitution as a shield against the tyranny of the majority. With Republicans, Scalia's attitude holds more water.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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So does this mean he doesn't believe in the court's made-up power of judicial review? :P
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Anguirus wrote:It really does frighten me that Scalia's understanding and application of the law seem so superficial. He's a Supreme Court justice, and I'm some schmo on the Internet.
What makes you think it's superficial? The man has an entirely alien set of values, approaches, and conclusions, but he's spent more time studying and thinking about law (albeit under that set of suppositions) than you've probably been alive.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Pint0 Xtreme wrote:Were the entire bill of rights a reflection of the desires of the society when the US Constitution was drafted?
They were actually a series of compromises to political reality at the time of adoption (hence the 3/5ths law, the two houses of Congress with two different ways of representation, and so forth). That's the main problem I have with Scalia's position - he's basically trying to preserve a literal 18th century interpretation of constitutional law rather than trying to preserve the principle and "spirit" of the rules within the context of a modern society.

It's tricky, of course - if we just ignore the intended meaning of the Constitution (and some of its amendments) in favor of societal norms, then you can have some real injustices. Witness what happened with the 14th and 15th amendments at first, where the intended goal - protecting the voting rights of blacks - was subverted. You have to try and preserve the "spirit" of the rules while dealing with the realities of the society at the time, and it doesn't always work out well.
What makes you think it's superficial? The man has an entirely alien set of values, approaches, and conclusions, but he's spent more time studying and thinking about law (albeit under that set of suppositions) than you've probably been alive.
While no one can really call Scalia superficial in terms of legal knowledge, you could make an argument that his view - the extreme literalism - is "superficial" in that it focuses entirely on what the literal meaning of the wording meant at the time of adoption (late 18th century) rather than attempting to divine "deeper meaning" or the "spirit" of the law. That actually came up in the D.C. vs Heller case, if I recall correctly - Scalia argued that the right to bear arms had a very literal, individualistic definition, whereas "militia" had a wholly other definition.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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They were actually a series of compromises to political reality at the time of adoption (hence the 3/5ths law, the two houses of Congress with two different ways of representation, and so forth).
That is the main body of the constitution- the bill of rights are the 10 amendments at the end.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Samuel wrote:
They were actually a series of compromises to political reality at the time of adoption (hence the 3/5ths law, the two houses of Congress with two different ways of representation, and so forth).
That is the main body of the constitution- the bill of rights are the 10 amendments at the end.
They were a compromise as well, actually, added so that the Constitution could get passed in several of the needed states.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Scalia's basically a modern state-rights proponent who maintains an incredible original-intentist lean in his constitutional construction. His position on desegregation sort of begs the question of how he would interpret the 13th, and 14th Amendments, though. I also sort of wonder what the practical effects would be, if the other justices went along with him. Basically we'd just pass a ton more amendments to keep the constitution closer to modern sensibilities. That doesn't strike me as being any sort of victory for anyone.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Master of Ossus wrote:Scalia's basically a modern state-rights proponent who maintains an incredible original-intentist lean in his constitutional construction. His position on desegregation sort of begs the question of how he would interpret the 13th, and 14th Amendments, though. I also sort of wonder what the practical effects would be, if the other justices went along with him. Basically we'd just pass a ton more amendments to keep the constitution closer to modern sensibilities. That doesn't strike me as being any sort of victory for anyone.
That might be, but Scalia would probably much prefer the Constitution be actually amended than interpreted and reinterpreted. That way, whatever modern sensibilities come up with is actually written into the document rather than interpreted into it. I'm guessing he's mortally afraid of a vast, shifting, evolving body of laws with no set basis other than tradition.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Surlethe wrote:
Anguirus wrote:It really does frighten me that Scalia's understanding and application of the law seem so superficial. He's a Supreme Court justice, and I'm some schmo on the Internet.
What makes you think it's superficial? The man has an entirely alien set of values, approaches, and conclusions, but he's spent more time studying and thinking about law (albeit under that set of suppositions) than you've probably been alive.
Oh, I know that, hence the qualifier "seems." However, his philosophy seems to be focused on the most literal interpretation of the document itself. I don't really see the point of considering the Constitution exclusively as an end in itself, rather than as an incredibly valuable document that was written by 18th century power brokers and slaveowners.

Then again, my opinion of him was rather lessened when he cited Jack Bauer in a SCOTUS opinion.

He's also responsible for this gem: http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/17/sca ... innocence/

He repeatedly strikes me as a pedant who's interested in the text of the law and not in the least about what the law is for, and on top of that a rather callous guy when you get right down to it.
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This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Axis Kast wrote:Scalia's frame of reference is clearly that of a constitutional minimalist -- one who reads the document under the supposition that the Federal Government was established with a very narrow set of responsibilities and permissions. Rights, except in very particular circumstances, devolve to the individual states, and are essentially determined by popular will. Most of the Democratic Party believes differently: the government is champion, using the Constitution as a shield against the tyranny of the majority. With Republicans, Scalia's attitude holds more water.

Jefferson thought the same until he was President, especially his second term. Anyway, even before he was President, he and Hamilton went rounds on this and it is clear that the Hamiltonians won since the Federal Government has never been shackled by strict Constitutional interpretations.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Axis Kast wrote:Scalia's frame of reference is clearly that of a constitutional minimalist -- one who reads the document under the supposition that the Federal Government was established with a very narrow set of responsibilities and permissions.
Even if it was, the fact that the Constitution has been amended more than a dozen times pretty obviously means that this original concept was deemed to be inadequate (and if that didn't clinch it, the fact that the country couldn't even last through its first century without tearing itself apart should have done the trick). I think the guy is just engaging in Founding Fatherland worship.

This is the heart of conservative politics: the assumption that everything was always better, more genuine, more legitimate in the past. When in doubt, go to the past. When confused, ask what the Founding Fathers would have done. It's more than a particular supposition, it's a habit of thought.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

Post by Master of Ossus »

Anguirus wrote:Oh, I know that, hence the qualifier "seems." However, his philosophy seems to be focused on the most literal interpretation of the document itself. I don't really see the point of considering the Constitution exclusively as an end in itself, rather than as an incredibly valuable document that was written by 18th century power brokers and slaveowners.
The Constitution is an end in and of itself for government actors in this country--it constitutes the US government.
[...]He repeatedly strikes me as a pedant who's interested in the text of the law and not in the least about what the law is for, and on top of that a rather callous guy when you get right down to it.
I don't think he would argue that he's interested in anything other than the text of a law--that's his entire point. He doesn't care what the purpose of a law is if the text of the law says something. I don't know why this makes him "callous." It's a somewhat unusual position for a common law judge to take, but civil law judges are supposed to adopt identical attitudes and I don't see people running around saying that the judicial system in all of continental Europe is "callous."
Darth Wong wrote:
Axis Kast wrote:Scalia's frame of reference is clearly that of a constitutional minimalist -- one who reads the document under the supposition that the Federal Government was established with a very narrow set of responsibilities and permissions.
Even if it was, the fact that the Constitution has been amended more than a dozen times pretty obviously means that this original concept was deemed to be inadequate (and if that didn't clinch it, the fact that the country couldn't even last through its first century without tearing itself apart should have done the trick). I think the guy is just engaging in Founding Fatherland worship.
Scalia fully understands the amendments, too: he just interprets them within the frame of reference of the time in which the amendments were made. He's not a Founding Father worshipper--he's a strict constructionalist who reads all laws literally and seeks to apply the text strictly (he might say "faithfully"). In the case of the Constitution, this approach tends to be somewhat broader because the Constitution's text is meant to be read broadly, and so he reads it in the context of the period in which that text was drafted.
This is the heart of conservative politics: the assumption that everything was always better, more genuine, more legitimate in the past. When in doubt, go to the past. When confused, ask what the Founding Fathers would have done. It's more than a particular supposition, it's a habit of thought.
Except that he addresses questions of laws that were passed in modern times within the context of the modern period (when he finds that such contextualization is required to understand the text).
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Jefferson thought the same until he was President, especially his second term. Anyway, even before he was President, he and Hamilton went rounds on this and it is clear that the Hamiltonians won since the Federal Government has never been shackled by strict Constitutional interpretations.
Sure. As the events leading to 1861 indicated mostly clearly, "these United States" could not have stood the test of time to become something more than the sum of their individual parts.
Even if it was, the fact that the Constitution has been amended more than a dozen times pretty obviously means that this original concept was deemed to be inadequate (and if that didn't clinch it, the fact that the country couldn't even last through its first century without tearing itself apart should have done the trick). I think the guy is just engaging in Founding Fatherland worship.
He clearly falls for the idea, completely unfounded and unsound, that the Founding Fathers were so smart and so upstanding, that they created a unique political edifice that is self-evidently worth preserving completely unchanged.
This is the heart of conservative politics: the assumption that everything was always better, more genuine, more legitimate in the past. When in doubt, go to the past. When confused, ask what the Founding Fathers would have done. It's more than a particular supposition, it's a habit of thought.
That's not the heart of conservative politics; it's the heart of a misassessment of the self-identified political "right."

The actual underlying principle is that the individual does not require the government to do X or Y. The Constitution is simply the document that is supposed to provide the legal "muscle" necessary to enforce such opinion.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

Post by Samuel »

The Constitution is an end in and of itself for government actors in this country--it constitutes the US government.
You mean like how judicial review is mentioned in the constitution? The constitution is the US's founding document but it is hardly what decides how the government runs- isn't that mostly decided by tradition and how much they can get away with? The Commerce Clause certainly fits that bill nicely.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Scalia fully understands the amendments, too: he just interprets them within the frame of reference of the time in which the amendments were made.
Well then I'm forced to wonder why he subscribes to the delightfully modern interpretation of "commander in chief" as "president can do whatever the fuck he wants."
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This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

Post by Master of Ossus »

Samuel wrote:
The Constitution is an end in and of itself for government actors in this country--it constitutes the US government.
You mean like how judicial review is mentioned in the constitution?
:roll:

Marbury v. Madison did away with this stupid argument. It established that courts are bound to follow the constitution, rather than laws of Congress which conflict with the Constitution. Judicial review was thus found to be an implicit power within the Constitution because it was necessary to fulfilling the expressly granted powers, just as how the Federal Government is allowed to buy ink and metal in order to print and press currency.
The constitution is the US's founding document but it is hardly what decides how the government runs- isn't that mostly decided by tradition and how much they can get away with? The Commerce Clause certainly fits that bill nicely.
Not according to Scalia, if by "tradition and how much they can get away with," you mean things that run beyond the intent of the drafters of the constitution. When faced with an issue of law for which there was a colorable argument that it was unconstitutional, Scalia would attempt to evaluate whether the text of the law could be reconciled with the intent of the drafters of the constitution. In that sense, he's actually extremely traditional.

(Also, the Commerce Clause is generally paired with the "necessary and proper" clause to show that the Federal government--specifically through Congress--has substantial regulatory authority. Scalia would almost certainly recognize the textual authority, here, particularly given that it was read broadly even in the very early days of the Government and constituted a significant part of the Federalist debate).
Anguirus wrote:Well then I'm forced to wonder why he subscribes to the delightfully modern interpretation of "commander in chief" as "president can do whatever the fuck he wants."
You will, of course, cite Scalia's statement that doing whatever the fuck he wants is one of the President's constitutional powers?
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thejester
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

Post by thejester »

But isn't his basic point here that changes in society should be reflected in legislation and ultimately constitutional amendments, not in what 7 lawyers think of a bit of paper written 200 years ago?

Obviously in practice taking a very strict view of the US Constitution would mean the US was a dysfunctional state by now - segregation etc would never have been overturned. But theoretically it seems to me a much better idea that social change should come from the legislature, not the bench - certainly not to the extent it does in the US. Can people in Commonwealth countries think of any major decisions reflective of Roe vs Wade etc? Only thing I can think of in Australia is Mabo, and that didn't have ramifications nearly as large.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

Post by Duckie »

Other countries have easier-to-amend-or-even-rewrite-entirely constitutions than America, so more judicial decisions are necessary. Further, such amendments usually are vague in areas, which requires judicial interpretation- thus why all the powers of the federal government under the commerce clause even exist. Segregation wasn't removed via a whim, it was justified with the 14th amendment, in the same way as various major powers are from the commerce clause. I doubt you'll get an amendment listing every single thing the federal government can do down to regulating major league baseball and the like, which is why judicial rulings like that are necessary.

Further, social change from the bench is best. If the legislature had been required to end segregation, it wouldn't have happened by now. Judges can apply laws and principles without having to worry about being reelected by the lowest common denominator.
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