SD+SB in Middle Earth

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2003-02-12 05:51pm

Darth Wong wrote:We have a year before the events of FOTR begin, we have some bona fide military instructors here, and every man has the motivation to survive so he can get home. Anyone who doesn't throw himself into the training and learn to work as part of a team would be a blithering idiot.

--You forgot add the part about summary execution. You are a sith lord right!?!

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-12 05:52pm

Nova Andromeda wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:We have a year before the events of FOTR begin, we have some bona fide military instructors here, and every man has the motivation to survive so he can get home. Anyone who doesn't throw himself into the training and learn to work as part of a team would be a blithering idiot.
--You forgot add the part about summary execution. You are a sith lord right!?!

No, he is Mike Wong with a degree in engineering. We are ourselves in reality, otherwise I could just get a nice handy-dandy knife-missile and watch as the Uruk-hai become double their numbers but also very dead.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-02-12 05:57pm

phongn wrote: Someone proposed using demo to destroy the dam. The problem is that none of us have any real skills at demolition other than watching shit blow up, if even that. Furthermore, it is not unlikely that if we try infiltrating to blow the damn we'll get caught - do you want to try and set charges while Uruk-Hai hordes are charging at you, using crossbows, any artillery in Isengard and whatnot?

OK. That would have been me.

None of us have skills at demo. And?

We do the following:

Some scouting to get an idea of the design and structure of the dam.

Give this info to some of our friendly local engineers.

Get the details from them on its most likely weakpoints.

Get the chemical lab boys to cook up some good explosives that can be waterproofed, if we don't already have some C4 with detonators, lunchboxes and cling-wrap.

Myself (holding an advanced diving certificate, and likely to be getting more qualifications including deep diving this year) trains a few others in the skills neccessary to dive. Of course, this is assuming that there is at least some SCUBA equipment on base. Nitrox equipment would be nice, but we could deal without it.

We go in on kayaks or similar being as stealthy as possible until we are in diving range of the dam. We swim in, set the charges and get back the kayaks - hopefully unnoticed. At a later point (like when we aren't on that particular part of river anymore) we blow the charges.

No more dam, no more industrialised Isengard.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-12 06:05pm

Time Ando's plan with demo charges at the Black Gate, and the Two Towers are effectively assfucked trying to coordinate for Helm's Deep.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-12 06:12pm

SirNitram wrote:Time Ando's plan with demo charges at the Black Gate, and the Two Towers are effectively assfucked trying to coordinate for Helm's Deep.

How do we get to the Black Gate, set off charges and not get noticed by an assload of bad guys?

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-02-12 06:14pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Time Ando's plan with demo charges at the Black Gate, and the Two Towers are effectively assfucked trying to coordinate for Helm's Deep.
How do we get to the Black Gate, set off charges and not get noticed by an assload of bad guys?

Move at night. Use some decent camo. Or you could just do a "hit-and-run" with a hummer at high speed.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-02-12 06:16pm

To diverge slightly towards the SB version of the thread.

What do people think our standard weapon load should be?

I mean, M4s are shiny and all, but is 5.56 really enough stopping power when dealing with orcs and uruk-hai?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-12 06:18pm

weemadando wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Time Ando's plan with demo charges at the Black Gate, and the Two Towers are effectively assfucked trying to coordinate for Helm's Deep.
How do we get to the Black Gate, set off charges and not get noticed by an assload of bad guys?
Move at night. Use some decent camo. Or you could just do a "hit-and-run" with a hummer at high speed.

Can't be too hard to rig up some sort of self-propelled casing for a demo charge, with a chem lab.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-12 06:19pm

weemadando wrote:To diverge slightly towards the SB version of the thread.

What do people think our standard weapon load should be?

I mean, M4s are shiny and all, but is 5.56 really enough stopping power when dealing with orcs and uruk-hai?

G-11s with at least 5 mags each, a USP .45 with two mags and some frag grenades and a combat utility knife.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-02-12 06:20pm

weemadando wrote:To diverge slightly towards the SB version of the thread.

What do people think our standard weapon load should be?

I mean, M4s are shiny and all, but is 5.56 really enough stopping power when dealing with orcs and uruk-hai?

Hollow-points and explosive bullets could be nice.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-02-12 06:21pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
weemadando wrote:To diverge slightly towards the SB version of the thread.

What do people think our standard weapon load should be?

I mean, M4s are shiny and all, but is 5.56 really enough stopping power when dealing with orcs and uruk-hai?
G-11s with at least 5 mags each, a USP .45 with two mags and some frag grenades and a combat utility knife.

G-11s? Errr, and where do you intend on getting those. Not to mention that if there's a problem we have NO chance of repairing them.

I say either G3s or the good ole FN-FAL. Good range, nice stopping power.

Or, we could go with the lovely russian designs. AK's are reliable and relatively easy to maintain with minimal training and equipment.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-12 06:25pm

weemadando wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:
weemadando wrote:To diverge slightly towards the SB version of the thread.

What do people think our standard weapon load should be?

I mean, M4s are shiny and all, but is 5.56 really enough stopping power when dealing with orcs and uruk-hai?
G-11s with at least 5 mags each, a USP .45 with two mags and some frag grenades and a combat utility knife.
G-11s? Errr, and where do you intend on getting those. Not to mention that if there's a problem we have NO chance of repairing them.

I say either G3s or the good ole FN-FAL. Good range, nice stopping power.

Or, we could go with the lovely russian designs. AK's are reliable and relatively easy to maintain with minimal training and equipment.

G-11s aren't that complicated and anyway, they are very robust given their design and just about the best damn gun ever made. If not them, then G-36s will do me. We could use MP7s or P-90s as close in weapons since they are good at penetrating armour at around 200m.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-02-12 06:40pm

Assuming Helms Deep would be our base camp, I think you all overestimate Uruk-Hai troops, at least at Helms Deep. We saw Gimli, Aragorn, and the King's calvary kill PLENTY of Orcs to assure us that-if battle were immenant- a couple of .50 cal machine guns at any entrance could cover there respective spots, considering infinate ammo.

Also I would consider burying some explosives in front of the Helms Deep (something a little bigger than a landmine) once we know attack is immenant as in there gonna be here soon; no use putting potentially lethal bombs under the ground we're going to be marching on unless its necesary. Then once they show up, line up and start yelling BOOM! Lotsa dead Orcs.

Build a moat around the castle, maybe fill with some dangerous LOTR sea creatures (the Watcher of the Water comes to mind) to prevent any orc from crossing. Have catapults launch explosives (doesn't have to be anything fancy, the kind Sarumans forces used would be fine) at the orc lines. Have some guys at the castle tops armed with machine guns to mow down orcs hopping off ladders, or instead use incindiaries take care of them. A sniper with a steady aim, and a good position would be able to handle any "torch barers" should they try to destroy the wall.

All the while, developing chem weapons for immediate use, and maybe some germ/bio warfare for the longterm.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-12 06:44pm

Claymores for the wall defence as well, don't want to hurt the wall. Shotguns would be good at close range too.

The bio and chem weapons come later.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-12 07:00pm

Don't forget that, while we may not be able to make modern artillery, we could easily make artillery many orders of magnitude superior to that of the enemy. We do, after all, have integral calculus.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-12 07:04pm

Durandal wrote:Don't forget that, while we may not be able to make modern artillery, we could easily make artillery many orders of magnitude superior to that of the enemy. We do, after all, have integral calculus.

Ooh, a practical use for calculus.

Meh, I'll stick with me bio, at least, when I'm not utilising my G-11.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-12 07:35pm

Can the Browning .50s be loaded with Saboted Light Armor Penetrator (SLAP) ammo as well as standard? It travels at around 1,200m/s compared with normal 900m/s and is a sabot rounf of 7.62mm calibre which is very good at armour penetration at lower ranges than normal.

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2003-02-12 08:02pm

A nice network of mines maybe, for when the Orcs finally come at us? (or has that been suggested, sorry, jumped to the end without reading much of the thread). Of course, I'd probably step on a mine, or shoot myself through the knee, or cause carnage to everyone.... they call me 'Dangerous Ben' at work for a reason...

Maybe remote-detonated mines?

Malecoda · Post by **Malecoda** » 2003-02-12 08:02pm

WTF?

I've typed in long posts twice, but when my left palm hits some key combo that I can't replicate consciously, it all goes away and I don't know how to restore it. Here's what I've been trying to say:

G-11 are too fancy and complicated. I understood that we'd have a base with lab and limited production facilities. I didn't see that we had an arms factory or an economy or a way to fabricate large quantities of plastic thingies. So I have some alternates for weaponry:

SMLE. Bolt action, big bullets, wood and metal. If we have a power source and a shop, we can build, fix, and rebuild all the wood-and-metal bang sticks we can handle and then some. If you need to be told, you can fire a bolt-action pretty fast, by just leaving it up and cycling the bolt between shots without looking at it. This, with the range you have, should serve well for those units that don't have a BAR. If you really feel you can't take these pre-WW1-style fighters with a WW1-era weapon, then you're a wuss. Wusses can have AK-47s--I'd pbly take one myself. But again, it's rugged, plain, and wood and metal. Big bullets, etc.

If you have any doubt at all that the bodybuilders on the Uruk-hai side will be stopped with a deer bullet, then put a drop of mercury in the hollowpoint and seal it. SPLAT. Use WP, or cyanide, or whatever floats your boat.

Sidearm: forget the Glock or the HK P9 or whatever. We may not have Glock factory-equipped gunsmiths, and again, we'd need some kind of plastic works. SO, I suggest the Colt .45. I'd take the .45 over a 9 anyway, as these aren't normal men. Soldiers can field-repair their Colts, and if they can't, then again, it's just wood and metal and you can fix them in the base.

Finally, the knife. Take the K-bar with the leather ring grip. If it's a plastic or Kydex or Nitrile or trademark du jour grip, it could break. Unlikely as it may seem, funny things happen to weapons in fights. If you have leather, though, you can repair it. You can scavenge leather from the enemy, but it's not likely they'll have a Nitrile truck you can steal. The steel is fairly simple so it won't be a bitch to work or sharpen.

That was it. KISS.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-12 08:18pm

The G-11 was my choice due to effectiveness of the round and the fact that a shitload can be carried and it is very accurate. It isn't prone to blockages either, but I suppose it has a unique mechanism that may make it more complicated in places.

I think revolvers would be a bonus too since they are reliable, large calibre and easy to repair and clean.

As for the bioweapon or chemical weapon, I was thinking something of a prion disease that could be used. We could have a vaccine for the elves no problem, the disease itself would be a modified protein much like CJD, fast, effective and transimissable. It also is a bugger to get rid of. It could be made to put the soldiers out but not kill them which would clog the enemy up with diseased.

Nerve agents can probably be made too, sarin or VX are the best bets, but I'd be well behind the lines if using that stuff with no NBC.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-02-12 08:24pm

As far as strategy goes, 19 years is a long-ass time. I mean, I haven't even existed for that long, and while that might not mean much to some of you old codgers, it's pretty important.

You guys have to consider when you'd make your push against Sauron. Obviously not right away, but it'd better be soon. If you wait 19 years, even the youngest among us will be pushing 40, and the current leaders will likely be in their fifties.

I'd suggest that once the base is secure and operations are routine, a human settlement is found and conquered/incorporated. Sow your seeds so that you'll have younglings to fight for you in future wars (not necessarily only against Sauron/Saruman). Additionally, interbreeding with the locals would make your bid for regional power more legitimate.

Oh, and with that bio weapon suggested earlier, let it kill Elves. You'll need to take them out of commission eventually anyways (after they help you at Helm's Deep, of course).

Wherever your base is, a distinct advantage in diplomacy is that we can pretend to be gods. Many of you know the names and stories of all of their gods off the top of your heads, not to mention the Silmarillion and the Trilogy will probably be in the library to teach the uninformed of just what to say.
Imagine Darth Wong and his honor guard driving into one of the human cities and saying "I am a Maiyar. Observe my metal horse. Observe my metal staff, and when it speaks, fire bellows from its mouth, and my enemies fall before me." He then executes an onlooker.

OK, so maybe I'm getting a little trigger-happy there, but the manipulating local forces will be an important strategical imperative, if only because there are so many of them compared to your numbers.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-02-12 08:25pm

Prehaps we should put a list of who is acutal in the top seventy five and see what skills we have to work with

Admittly personaly a large amount of my skills are completly useless in Middle Earth(Last time I check Sauron was not using 256k encryption, nor will we need to maintain any computer networks of any kind or any sort of data security)
But I know my way around pracitly any fire-arm and can get a minium of Sharpshooter with it, given a hundred rounds or so to familirse myself with the weapon

It would be useful to have list of what we bring to the table

As a side note I suggest equiping everyone with the newest in Chinese AK techology, Three reasons, Damn things are easy to fix, They never break to being with, and they have excelent stopping power

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-02-12 08:27pm

Imagine Darth Wong and his honor guard driving into one of the human cities and saying "I am a Maiyar. Observe my metal horse. Observe my metal staff, and when it speaks, fire bellows from its mouth, and my enemies fall before me." He then executes an onlooker.

ROTFLMAO!

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-02-12 08:27pm

I'd also like to point out the amazingly obvious things that people have missed.

1) Diplomacy - We just turn up in the middle of nowhere with modern tech and its automatically assumed by the humans, elves etc that we are friendly? Uh-uh. We need lots of people going out and establishing ties. That leads us to problem no.2

2) Trade and Currency - We have no money worth anything to them. They can chop wood themselves, raise and butcher their own animals... Trade is limited to technology. And do we really want to trade technology?

3) "Where the hell are we?" - We would have no maps of Middle Earth, and even those that could be provided by locals are by no means accurate. We wouldn't have GPS, we wouldn't even have enough info to get inertial guidance working properly. If we were to team up with the rangers and use modern surveying equipment we could probably build a decent map in about 6-9 months, but it would still have a LOT of guesswork (anyone up for surveying Mordor - didn't think so).

4) Small[pox] problems - Been mentioned already, but we as modern humans have remarkably shite immune systems. Forget us spreading disease to Middle Earth. We'll likely be like the Martians unless we can sort out a decent immunisation/acclimatisation program. And what happens when someone gets injured Anyone here got medical training? Anyone at SB? I know that I can stabilise someone with pretty bad injuries (aneurysms, collapsed lungs etc etc), but without someone with decent medical training that person is as good as dead and we shouldn't even bother wasting our precious medical equipment on stabilising them.

5) Biology - Anyone here a biologist? Because it would be a great fucking insight for everyone if we could perform a few autopsies on orcs, goblins and uruk-hai to determine what they may be vulnerable to. Not to mention how fucking handy it would be to determine exactly whats edible and whats not for someone with a modern human physiology and immune system.

6) Language barrier - who here speaks the tongues of Middle Earth? Noone? Didn't think so.

7) Manufacturing and maintenance - Its all well and good to have modern weapons and equipment, but does anyone know how to maintain them? Who knows how to drill for oil and then refine it to petroleum and other derivatives? Who knows how to convert an engine from petroleum to another fuel source? Who knows how to fabricate ammunition from scratch? Who knows about mining and refinement of ores? Lets not forget that once we figure out who knows how to do all this we still have to get people to actually do it.

I'm sure there's more that I'll think of and post.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-02-12 08:29pm

Imagine Darth Wong and his honor guard driving into one of the human cities and saying "I am a Maiyar. Observe my metal horse. Observe my metal staff, and when it speaks, fire bellows from its mouth, and my enemies fall before me." He then executes an onlooker.

Oh yes, very smart. Then a Valar rocks up, says: "No you're not." and frags us all with magic.