SW ground forces vs WH40k ground forces

[Simon_Jester]

If we're talking about the ability to handle the logistics of a large force, you've got two very different pictures here for each side. The Empire and Imperium operate on very different strategic models. Both can field large forces, but the Empire seems to field much smaller forces in practice than it can in theory, while the Imperium takes very long timescales to build up its forces to the maximum sustainable troop density.
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On the Star Wars side, the Republic/Empire has extremely fast transportation over galactic distances, so they can keep forces supplied from tens of thousands of light-years away. But on the other hand, they're used to being able to do that, so the local force density tends to be relatively low. Theoretically there's nothing stopping them from dropping half the starfleet and several billion ground troops into any given system on a few days' notice, but in practice they hardly ever do so except in extreme emergencies. Even for relatively critical operations (Battle of Endor), the Empire deployed only a small fraction of its overall fleet strength.

So while the Empire has the logistics capability and spacelift to sustain vast forces more or less anywhere it can reach, experience gives us reasons to question whether they will actually bother to do so unless faced with an existential threat. More practically, they tend to limit ground operations to the scale we are familiar with on Earth, or to no more than, say, an order of magnitude higher than that.

So I don't expect to see the Empire actually fielding armies much larger than what several populated worlds combined could raise for local self-defense unless they have an urgent overriding reason to do so (and damn the expense). And given the way that the bureaucratic-feudalism of the Imperium of Man handles deployment to face a threat, that's comparable in size to the force that you'd expect to actually see on a given planet in response to an invasion within a few months.

If this is a bolt-from-the-blue surprise attack, the Empire has overwhelming local superiority. If both sides have had weeks or months to plan, then the Empire will have to concentrate much more force than it's accustomed to doing in order to gain a numerical advantage in the target system.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

If one were to go by the quantity of men, firepower, and weapons the Imperium could land on one planet, when it has mobilized to invade sector for a long war, such as the Sabbat Crusades, here's an example from Necropolis: 6 million Guardsmen, squads drawn from 3 chapters of Adeptus Astartes, half a million tanks, 2 Titan Legions, and whole plethora of logistics etc. to support the operation in question. Sure, this was the Warmaster's personal army, but I'm not even sure if it is all of it. And it obviously took ages to amass that many troops.

Let's not even talk about when the Imperium was still in the Great Crusades mode. That was sheer volume of raw material assigned to each Legion.

[Falkenhayn]

What ground campaigns has the GE conducted?

On its face, GE ground doctrine assumes orbital supremacy, in order to conduct campaigns grounded on shock and terror. White Rabbit raises a critical point, though; without some kind of warp jamming, the GE has very little chance of block IoM espionage and communication on the operational and strategic levels. Chaos achieves this through demonic pacts and patrons, and massive amounts of warp phenomenon spawned by cults (who provide further resources to purchase demonic favors and influence). Tactically (where communications are technological), the GE may have an EW advantage, but IoM decision makers should be very well informed as long as an astropath can be found to relay information.

IoM defensive "doctrine", as it appears, is based on the assumption that the enemy will achieve strategic suprise, and the victim world will be on its own for the initial portion of the conflict. Naturally, they are expected to fight to the death, though this certainly doesn't entail effective resistance. This is just sound sense in-universe, as FTL communication is largely warp based (which chaos and tyranids will jam or cut completely, and the Eldar will more than likely move too swiftly for it to matter). But once the Administratum has decided a world is worth recapturing in light of current strategic reality, the IoM has no problems with decades or centuries long force commitments, and all that entails. Nor are they frightened by extreme casualties (which are likely, at least in winning control of the planet, if they do so, though the IoM doesn't think orbital control is a necessity for landing a planetary invasion force).

Moreover, thanks to unimpeded communications, the IoM ought to have increasingly firm intelligence on the GE, its structure, and how it wages war. The implications of the GE on the IoM's ruling philosophy and SOP regarding non-Imperial humans are obvious, and powerful institutional forces inside the IoM (namely the =I=, the Ecclesiarchy, and such SM chapters as know about it) may demand a victory-or-death outcome. Here, the SM are the wild card, as they have rapidly expanding political authority in the "TIME OF ENDING!!!11!!" Imperium, but exist outside of any chain of command. They may simply activate ties of honor or obligation, or older chapter alliances, and decide to act independently in defense of the Imperium (cf Captain Sicarius and the Tau, The Invaders Chapter's solo assault and destruction of Craftworld Idharae). In which case, they'll respond immediately and ought to arrive before any counteroffensive by the IoM proper, and obviously with a wildly different force structure and set of problems for the GE.

That said, it all starts with fleets and responses, though Connor's work has considerably narrowed the gap between SW and 40k ships, IIRC, though the GE's FTL advantage remains pretty much ironclad. There's also Rogue Trader's numbers to handle, though the preponderance of evidence supports Connor.

[Balrog]

Aren't you being a bit generous in regards to Warp communication? As I always understood, while various artificial means can be used to muddy up astropathic messages on purpose, the Warp itself is naturally a chaotic dimension, and that messages sent through the Warp can still be corrupted, severely delayed or simply lost. The SW Imperials might not have any way to jam Warp communications, but given their own galaxy-wide, instantaneous comm net, they would still be able to operate at a far faster pace than the Imperium's decision making process.

[Falkenhayn]

Aren't you being a bit generous in regards to Warp communication? As I always understood, while various artificial means can be used to muddy up astropathic messages on purpose, the Warp itself is naturally a chaotic dimension, and that messages sent through the Warp can still be corrupted, severely delayed or simply lost.

Astropaths can confirm receipt, and they can keep sending until receipt is confirmed or they die. Without active resistance from the Warp, the effort in sending, and the clarity of message are by extension, enhanced. So are the lifetimes of the astropaths (who are conditioned to send messages much like combat engineers are conditioned to build bridges). The IoM scarcely ever operates under these circumstances, so I don't know how they would be hindered.

It isn't a world beater, but it is one less normally routine and significant operational difficulty.

The GE has no infrastructure for jamming warp communications, unless they can discover and replicate 40k methods for doing so (as trying to do so from scratch is insane). And there are an incredible number of safeguards built into the Imperium's many institutions to keep this from happening, not the least of which are the walls of ignorance built up between competing bureaucracies and different levels in the chain of command. For example, there is no guarantee that a Sister of Battle under the rank of Canoness knows what a Grey Knight looks like.

The SW Imperials might not have any way to jam Warp communications, but given their own galaxy-wide, instantaneous comm net, they would still be able to operate at a far faster pace than the Imperium's decision making process.

And I'm not arguing against this, but the IoM reaction times and planning are hindered by their enemies' attacks on astropathic communication, and extend through the conflict itself. Without active jamming , IoM reaction and intelligence gathering move a lot closer to optimal rates, and as I said, Space Marines could be responding in numbers as quickly as they can board Strike Cruisers and arrive in theater.

[Falkenhayn]

Yes, that backpedal was on purpose. "Critical" was the wrong word. "Important" would be better, with regard to what WR said and how I commented on it.

[Balrog]

Isn't there some AT-AT dwarfing repulsor lift gun of doom mentioned in a tech manual ?

Yeah, it's called Blaster Artillery. Bigger than an AT-AT, it looks like a giant balloon....a giant balloon of DOOM!
Link
A range of only 30km is odd, but then again it's suppose to be as powerful as an ISD's turbolaser.

Astropaths can confirm receipt, and they can keep sending until receipt is confirmed or they die. Without active resistance from the Warp, the effort in sending, and the clarity of message are by extension, enhanced. So are the lifetimes of the astropaths (who are conditioned to send messages much like combat engineers are conditioned to build bridges). The IoM scarcely ever operates under these circumstances, so I don't know how they would be hindered.

It isn't a world beater, but it is one less normally routine and significant operational difficulty.

I don't doubt that it'll be one less headache for the Imperium, but given the vagaries the Warp already has without any outside influence, would it even matter? Even under the best of circumstances, without some giant 'nid fleet/daemon hoarde/[insert nameless terror] causing havoc, communication by astropath is still almost comically slow; there's the story in the newest IG codex of a regiment that was wiped out to a man one year, then a few years later contacted by the Administratum to join up on a crusade forming...then a few years later the Administratum orders the entire regiment executed for dereliction of duty.

My big question then is, is there even an optimum rate to judge them by, where we can say "it used to take them X time to receive a message, now it takes Y time" where Y is significantly different?

[Norade]

Another large vehicle for the Star Wars side is the every popular XR-85 Tank Droid. They have the advantages of being disposable, and cheap compare to a human operated vehicle and can be churned out of a prefabricated facility dropped by an ISD until the battle is over. In fact, if I had any time to prepare as an Imperial commander I'd go droids all the way set up automated supply drops for things that can't be easily refined, drop in a few Lucrehulks worth of battle droids followed by factories and heavy support and air support and and watch the Imperium lose.

[Simon_Jester]

As others have noted, there seems to be a social convention in Star Wars against building large-scale battledroid production lines. Eleventh Century Remnant has made some particularly interesting speculation on the subject, but when you consider the Star Wars galaxy's history (the recent Clone Wars, combined with ancient examples like the Star Forge), you can see that militarized von Neumann-like machines aren't going to be trusted in the setting.

Sure, automated combat units exist and people use them, but they're used far less than the technology allows. And I think that's true for a reason. So I think if you tried to drop a few Lucrehulks worth of battle droids onto the Imperium, you'd have to answer some very heated, pointy questions from the higher-ups in the Galactic Empire.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Between droids and Tyranids, I'm sure the Imperium would rather pick droids, to be certain.

And Tyranids come in swarms that make even the largest of Droid armies look bloody small.

[Norade]

As others have noted, there seems to be a social convention in Star Wars against building large-scale battledroid production lines. Eleventh Century Remnant has made some particularly interesting speculation on the subject, but when you consider the Star Wars galaxy's history (the recent Clone Wars, combined with ancient examples like the Star Forge), you can see that militarized von Neumann-like machines aren't going to be trusted in the setting.

Sure, automated combat units exist and people use them, but they're used far less than the technology allows. And I think that's true for a reason. So I think if you tried to drop a few Lucrehulks worth of battle droids onto the Imperium, you'd have to answer some very heated, pointy questions from the higher-ups in the Galactic Empire.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there, do you really think the Galactic Empire, when faced if an extra galactic threat wouldn't switch to droids and clones again to fight them? In fact it seems the when large scale combat is the order of the day droids and clones are favored going back centuries to the robotic army of Xim the Despot. Also, even the new republic, if the seeds of corruption hadn't been planted long before the Vong invasion had many droids in service, though not often in front line duties.

As for being less than what technology allows, it doesn't matter give me an arm with a camera and a gun and a decently stable form of locomotion and crank them out at one a second on multiple lines and I'll still win most wars.

Between droids and Tyranids, I'm sure the Imperium would rather pick droids, to be certain.

And Tyranids come in swarms that make even the largest of Droid armies look bloody small.

At first you would be right, but can Tyranids produce a gaunt a second armed with las-gun equivalents and without interdependence on a hive mind? Can they build drones with perfect knowledge of the anatomy of their foes and ensure that this point is aimed for and hit with machine precision? Can one world's biomass compare to one worlds mineral wealth? I don't think so.

Also while the Tyranids come in staggering numbers there is no reason droids can't come in the same ore more. Hell at reduced complexity you could fit slightly larger training remotes with a kill setting and drop them by the megaton on an army and if we assume a volume of 1.5 cubic feet you could fit a lot of them into a dedicated transport and insert them into a world.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

At first you would be right, but can Tyranids produce a gaunt a second armed with las-gun equivalents and without interdependence on a hive mind? Can they build drones with perfect knowledge of the anatomy of their foes and ensure that this point is aimed for and hit with machine precision? Can one world's biomass compare to one worlds mineral wealth? I don't think so.

There's more than enough nodes within the Hive Mind to keep it moving, short of attacking one of the large Hive Ships in orbit, which is by no means a small challenge. Let's not even start talking about the Bio-Titans which are by themselves monstrous and hard to defeat.

Also while the Tyranids come in staggering numbers there is no reason droids can't come in the same ore more. Hell at reduced complexity you could fit slightly larger training remotes with a kill setting and drop them by the megaton on an army and if we assume a volume of 1.5 cubic feet you could fit a lot of them into a dedicated transport and insert them into a world.

There's a difference. Droids need external sources of energy. The Tyranids merely need to just consume everything they see around them and keep multiplying in numbers. There's no energy required for the Tyranids to start multiplying. A droid needs to be constantly supplied with fuel.

[Norade]

At first you would be right, but can Tyranids produce a gaunt a second armed with las-gun equivalents and without interdependence on a hive mind? Can they build drones with perfect knowledge of the anatomy of their foes and ensure that this point is aimed for and hit with machine precision? Can one world's biomass compare to one worlds mineral wealth? I don't think so.

There's more than enough nodes within the Hive Mind to keep it moving, short of attacking one of the large Hive Ships in orbit, which is by no means a small challenge. Let's not even start talking about the Bio-Titans which are by themselves monstrous and hard to defeat.

Indeed, but assuming a hive ship is in place there is no reason not to assume and equal tonnage of ships for the Imperials and that would ruin the Nids shit in a hurry. Let's also not forget the wonders of XR-85 tank droids and the like which, if shielded as AT-AT's are suspected to be, would hold out very well against bio acids and living munitions which wouldn't harm the shield significantly outside of the momentum they posses but would kill the ammo and leave the droids a huge advantage in range as the become near impervious to Tyranid shooting. Thus you're left with a Bio-Titan firing large blobs of acid onto a tank that could care less and the tank firing LTL's and article cannon shots that the nids can't ignore. Aside from that a droid with a battery, some servos, an armored shell, and a gun is smaller than a similarly armed and protected organic being thus giving another advantage per resource used. Of course the immunity at range is Nid specific and woldn't be as large an advantage if an advantage at all against other races.

Also while the Tyranids come in staggering numbers there is no reason droids can't come in the same ore more. Hell at reduced complexity you could fit slightly larger training remotes with a kill setting and drop them by the megaton on an army and if we assume a volume of 1.5 cubic feet you could fit a lot of them into a dedicated transport and insert them into a world.

There's a difference. Droids need external sources of energy. The Tyranids merely need to just consume everything they see around them and keep multiplying in numbers. There's no energy required for the Tyranids to start multiplying. A droid needs to be constantly supplied with fuel.

[/quote]

There is but energy from bio-mass can still be harvested to power droids and the Nids won't do very well if you send droids out clear food sources. Besides the batteries in Star Wars should last long enough for the droid to have gone down to some attack before it runs out of charge. That isn't even utilizing thermal heating from a planets core, solar power, or hypermatter, the hyper-matter of course dropping with the factory to power it and recharge its droids. The other advantage is that while the Imperium won't use an enemies weapon, and indeedcouldn't use a droid weapon, a droid could use their weapons if so designed.

[Simon_Jester]

Between droids and Tyranids, I'm sure the Imperium would rather pick droids, to be certain.

And Tyranids come in swarms that make even the largest of Droid armies look bloody small.

Yes, but that's in the extreme special case of an existential threat to a galactic civilization. Remember that the galactic powers did not break out the massed automatic battledroid production capability to deal with the Yuuzhan Vong... who, for all their cheesiness, represented a serious threat and actually managed to bite a major chunk out of the galaxy. A Tyranid hive fleet would probably get similar treatment, assuming that the 'nids can come close to matching the Star Wars powers in space combat. Which I'm not so sure of.

As for fighting Tyranids on the ground? Turbolaser the site from orbit.
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I'm going to have to disagree with you there, do you really think the Galactic Empire, when faced if an extra galactic threat wouldn't switch to droids and clones again to fight them? In fact it seems the when large scale combat is the order of the day droids and clones are favored going back centuries to the robotic army of Xim the Despot. Also, even the new republic, if the seeds of corruption hadn't been planted long before the Vong invasion had many droids in service, though not often in front line duties.

As for being less than what technology allows, it doesn't matter give me an arm with a camera and a gun and a decently stable form of locomotion and crank them out at one a second on multiple lines and I'll still win most wars.

I think you misunderstood. I'm not talking about the technological sophistication of individual droids.

I'm saying that the manufacturing of droids is less (smaller-scale) than the technology allows. Droids are used in war, absolutely, but they aren't used in war as much as they could be. Given the technology, there is no technical reason why any armed power in Star Wars doesn't go the route of the corporate powers in the Clone Wars and build up an army of droids that outguns its flesh and blood forces by a huge margin.

So why is it that only the corporate powers did that? Why didn't the Republic have its own self-maintaining droid army? Why didn't the Rebels scramble to find some droid foundries and set them up on the Outer Rim to produce the muscle they'd need to take the Imperial starfleet head-on? I contend that there is a reason for this- the same reason that Star Wars underutilizes the possibilities of AI technology in general by treating droids as slaves rather than allowing them the computing capacity and growth time to become superhuman intelligences. They are (with reason) afraid of the consequences of large droid armies and fleets, especially when those armies and fleets are produced in heavily automated facilities that the droids could theoretically take for themselves.

The loyalty and reliability* of AI is a major concern in Star Wars, one that overrides virtually all other considerations when it comes to the use of droids. This probably goes a long way to explain why they've been around for tens of thousands of years without ever undergoing the AI Singularity: they deliberately suppress any AI technology with enough resources and intellect to credibly threaten to overturn the existing social order.

*in the political sense
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So while it is certainly possible from a technical standpoint for any major power in Star Wars to build up a vast army and navy of battledroids, I don't think it is LIKELY to happen unless that power is threatened with not just conquest, but outright destruction. There have to be social factors militating against it, or people would do it more often... and galactic civilization wouldn't look the way it does by the time of the movies.

[Falkenhayn]

Isn't there some AT-AT dwarfing repulsor lift gun of doom mentioned in a tech manual ?

Yeah, it's called Blaster Artillery. Bigger than an AT-AT, it looks like a giant balloon....a giant balloon of DOOM!
Link
A range of only 30km is odd, but then again it's suppose to be as powerful as an ISD's turbolaser.

Astropaths can confirm receipt, and they can keep sending until receipt is confirmed or they die. Without active resistance from the Warp, the effort in sending, and the clarity of message are by extension, enhanced. So are the lifetimes of the astropaths (who are conditioned to send messages much like combat engineers are conditioned to build bridges). The IoM scarcely ever operates under these circumstances, so I don't know how they would be hindered.

It isn't a world beater, but it is one less normally routine and significant operational difficulty.

I don't doubt that it'll be one less headache for the Imperium, but given the vagaries the Warp already has without any outside influence, would it even matter? Even under the best of circumstances, without some giant 'nid fleet/daemon hoarde/[insert nameless terror] causing havoc, communication by astropath is still almost comically slow; there's the story in the newest IG codex of a regiment that was wiped out to a man one year, then a few years later contacted by the Administratum to join up on a crusade forming...then a few years later the Administratum orders the entire regiment executed for dereliction of duty.

My big question then is, is there even an optimum rate to judge them by, where we can say "it used to take them X time to receive a message, now it takes Y time" where Y is significantly different?

The proof may lie in Eisenhorn, but until I dig it up, I concede this point, Balrog.

[NecronLord]

At first you would be right, but can Tyranids produce a gaunt a second armed with las-gun equivalents and without interdependence on a hive mind? Can they build drones with perfect knowledge of the anatomy of their foes and ensure that this point is aimed for and hit with machine precision? Can one world's biomass compare to one worlds mineral wealth? I don't think so.

While Star Wars might be able to do such things, it can't make craploads of those droids.

Just for an example of how hard battledroid aim in SW fails, as far as I am aware, in TPM, there is not one example of a Vulture droid hitting the target it fires at. All the CIS' droids are pretty much spray and pay. Balmorran war droids are better, but are still not anything like you describe. The only SW droids that spring to mind to have that kind of performance are a few assassin droids.

While it's easy to exaggerate droid inaccuracy, the ones in the films and TV show have this alarming tendancy to miss. A lot.

[Korgeta]

At first you would be right, but can Tyranids produce a gaunt a second armed with las-gun equivalents and without interdependence on a hive mind? Can they build drones with perfect knowledge of the anatomy of their foes and ensure that this point is aimed for and hit with machine precision? Can one world's biomass compare to one worlds mineral wealth? I don't think so.

Also while the Tyranids come in staggering numbers there is no reason droids can't come in the same ore more. Hell at reduced complexity you could fit slightly larger training remotes with a kill setting and drop them by the megaton on an army and if we assume a volume of 1.5 cubic feet you could fit a lot of them into a dedicated transport and insert them into a world.

Were not talking about the terminators here, the droids miss a lot, the films have them miss a lot, their accuracy is is on the general mass not a specfic part of the body, for example all of these droids were suited to take on combatants similir to themselves. The intensity of their firepower would be a prick to the Tyranid skin as a Tyranid is bigger, stronger and tougher. The size model and scope of the currant droids would not be suited to fighting a Tyranid. Also by your assement the droids should have won the clone wars (I have to admit the droids should espacilly with the battle droids, the bots with shielding and that machine can be built quicker then clone, you get the idea) It dosen't matter if they outnumber the tyranids 10 to 1, if they don't have the design to stand up and some serious firepower to back up then their gone. The droids aren't simply built to handle something like the Tyranids unless they were redesigned and such.

[Serafina]

When we talk about robot (or droid) accuracy, you always need to keep in mind that the same limitations as for humans apply to a certain extent - you can only aim that accurate with a limb.

Generally, accuracy is way more limited by hardware than by software if we talk about machines. It's not that hard to tell it where to aim - but making it actually hit that spot is another thing. Especially if we are talking about fast, moving targets under battle conditions.

[Balrog]

At first you would be right, but can Tyranids produce a gaunt a second armed with las-gun equivalents and without interdependence on a hive mind? Can they build drones with perfect knowledge of the anatomy of their foes and ensure that this point is aimed for and hit with machine precision? Can one world's biomass compare to one worlds mineral wealth? I don't think so.

While Star Wars might be able to do such things, it can't make craploads of those droids.

Just for an example of how hard battledroid aim in SW fails, as far as I am aware, in TPM, there is not one example of a Vulture droid hitting the target it fires at. All the CIS' droids are pretty much spray and pay. Balmorran war droids are better, but are still not anything like you describe. The only SW droids that spring to mind to have that kind of performance are a few assassin droids.

While it's easy to exaggerate droid inaccuracy, the ones in the films and TV show have this alarming tendancy to miss. A lot.

I'm almost positive that we do see Vulture droids scoring kills, but then it's been awhile since I've seen the film, and (in their defense) their targets are trying their best to not get shot. In any case, mass producing intelligent killer droids is possible, but much more expensive than cheap B1s, and considering the war was not only run by bankers and merchants, but orchestrated specifically by an outside force for neither side to have a clear advantage until the very end, they might not be the best example.

And I thought the Republic did start mass producing droids to combat the Vong, like the YVH-1?

[Norade]

Between droids and Tyranids, I'm sure the Imperium would rather pick droids, to be certain.

And Tyranids come in swarms that make even the largest of Droid armies look bloody small.

Yes, but that's in the extreme special case of an existential threat to a galactic civilization. Remember that the galactic powers did not break out the massed automatic battledroid production capability to deal with the Yuuzhan Vong... who, for all their cheesiness, represented a serious threat and actually managed to bite a major chunk out of the galaxy. A Tyranid hive fleet would probably get similar treatment, assuming that the 'nids can come close to matching the Star Wars powers in space combat. Which I'm not so sure of.

As for fighting Tyranids on the ground? Turbolaser the site from orbit.

I already stated that the NR was weakened from within by the Vong, something that is not the case in the OP's question. Thus we do not know that they would not have been quicker to use droids if they hadn't been corrupted from within. Certainly the Emperor would have had no such qualms about such a force as he has used droids in many cases including the Clone Wars, World Devestators, and TIE Droids.

This was a talk about ground forces though, I can assume that in many cases the Nids would be hard pressed to gain the ground, but I'm choosing to constrain this discussion to ground versus ground with space only being able to defeat orbital threats.
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I'm going to have to disagree with you there, do you really think the Galactic Empire, when faced if an extra galactic threat wouldn't switch to droids and clones again to fight them? In fact it seems the when large scale combat is the order of the day droids and clones are favored going back centuries to the robotic army of Xim the Despot. Also, even the new republic, if the seeds of corruption hadn't been planted long before the Vong invasion had many droids in service, though not often in front line duties.

As for being less than what technology allows, it doesn't matter give me an arm with a camera and a gun and a decently stable form of locomotion and crank them out at one a second on multiple lines and I'll still win most wars.

I think you misunderstood. I'm not talking about the technological sophistication of individual droids.

I'm saying that the manufacturing of droids is less (smaller-scale) than the technology allows. Droids are used in war, absolutely, but they aren't used in war as much as they could be. Given the technology, there is no technical reason why any armed power in Star Wars doesn't go the route of the corporate powers in the Clone Wars and build up an army of droids that outguns its flesh and blood forces by a huge margin.

So why is it that only the corporate powers did that? Why didn't the Republic have its own self-maintaining droid army? Why didn't the Rebels scramble to find some droid foundries and set them up on the Outer Rim to produce the muscle they'd need to take the Imperial starfleet head-on? I contend that there is a reason for this- the same reason that Star Wars underutilizes the possibilities of AI technology in general by treating droids as slaves rather than allowing them the computing capacity and growth time to become superhuman intelligences. They are (with reason) afraid of the consequences of large droid armies and fleets, especially when those armies and fleets are produced in heavily automated facilities that the droids could theoretically take for themselves.

The loyalty and reliability* of AI is a major concern in Star Wars, one that overrides virtually all other considerations when it comes to the use of droids. This probably goes a long way to explain why they've been around for tens of thousands of years without ever undergoing the AI Singularity: they deliberately suppress any AI technology with enough resources and intellect to credibly threaten to overturn the existing social order.

*in the political sense
_________

So while it is certainly possible from a technical standpoint for any major power in Star Wars to build up a vast army and navy of battledroids, I don't think it is LIKELY to happen unless that power is threatened with not just conquest, but outright destruction. There have to be social factors militating against it, or people would do it more often... and galactic civilization wouldn't look the way it does by the time of the movies.

There are reasons of pride and the ability for humans to be better than droids in peacetime and the fact that if needed droids can be had quickly and cheaply. Thus why would they not maintain human/alien crewed fleets and use droids and such for total war? In fact in the one large scale conflict we see and in others that are mentioned in history they are used repeatedly. When war came Palpatine used image to control the population pitting the loyal clones against the evil machines for show and effect. It simply happens that the corporates were choose by Palpatine to be the droids as they were against the government.

The reasons for keeping them limited are cost, and the fact they they work even at a lower level of sophistication. In fact we have examples of better droids in the B-2 series versus the B-1's, then we have the Vulture droids and Droideka. Droids are already a viable force without upgrades.

I don't think there is any bias against droids, as we have seen in our limited window that they are used in large scale wars and do rather well.

[Norade]

Could a mod please split Nids vs droids from this thread as it isn't what the op was asking about.

[NecronLord]

I'm almost positive that we do see Vulture droids scoring kills,

They're badass in RotS, possibly because the ones on Invisible Hand were elite.

but then it's been awhile since I've seen the film, and (in their defense) their targets are trying their best to not get shot.

That describes anyone not caught by surprise and not suicidal.

In any case, mass producing intelligent killer droids is possible, but much more expensive than cheap B1s, and considering the war was not only run by bankers and merchants, but orchestrated specifically by an outside force for neither side to have a clear advantage until the very end, they might not be the best example.

Theoretically, the technology should render clones utterly obsolete. It doesn't, though...

And I thought the Republic did start mass producing droids to combat the Vong, like the YVH-1?

They did indeed. But I can't speak to their accuracy, not having read the books. They seem to have used gas weapons and grenades a lot, in addition to wrist-mounted blasters. I expect they were decent, but I wouldn't make claims about them being able to shoot a moth in the dark unless there's evidence.

[NecronLord]

Could a mod please split Nids vs droids from this thread as it isn't what the op was asking about.

I am a mod. It is what the thread is about.

Assuming an Army from SW has been despatched to fight over an Earth like planet. in an arena setting against the respective WH40k faction of roughly equal numbers/industrial strength.. So, against the Nids, they probably be outnumbered significantly but they have heavier advanced weaponery and the like.


So, how would you configure such an army? Assuming one army from the NR era and another from the Imperial Endor era.

Battle-droids are a perfectly valid component and mainstay of Star Wars armies.

[Serafina]

They're badass in RotS, possibly because the ones on Invisible Hand were elite.

It is more likely that they got an upgrade during the ~10 years since Episode One. After all, so did various other droids.

[Norade]

Could a mod please split Nids vs droids from this thread as it isn't what the op was asking about.

I am a mod. It is what the thread is about.

Assuming an Army from SW has been despatched to fight over an Earth like planet. in an arena setting against the respective WH40k faction of roughly equal numbers/industrial strength.. So, against the Nids, they probably be outnumbered significantly but they have heavier advanced weaponery and the like.


So, how would you configure such an army? Assuming one army from the NR era and another from the Imperial Endor era.

Battle-droids are a perfectly valid component and mainstay of Star Wars armies.

I wasn't sure if the Tyranids versus Droids debate was on topic enough. Thanks for clarifying.