Imperial era Airborne assault

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Ritterin Sophia
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Norade wrote:No shit most people wouldn't come her for that debate anymore, but most people here would still have passing knowledge of it. As far as stupidity watch the Death Star attack run from launch to the start of breaching the shields and tell me that it doesn't require massive G's to be pulled.
Here you make the assumption that everyone understands the
Tell me what any of this has to do with hyperspace and taking weeks to cross a galaxy?
My point you dumbass is that the EU is the source of the majority of the minimalist bullshit, so screaming at him to READ MOAR EU! is nt going to help matters.
This is about him assuming that Wars ships can't pull multi-thousand G acceleration because it doesn't feel right and not even knowing the basics of a universe he had been talking about on a site where, by name alone, such knowledge should be assumed, for not realizing that a ship designed for atmosphere might not be easily design in atmosphere inspite of various topic in this forum, OSF and SLAM on the subject.
Here you assume everyone has the same knowledge of science as the 'average' SDN poster.
Did I name enough stupidity there for you?
No you didn't. You failed to point out where he said anything that would require you to eviscerate him. You had no reason to do it except you wanting to show your ass.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by Norade »

General Schatten wrote:
Norade wrote:No shit most people wouldn't come her for that debate anymore, but most people here would still have passing knowledge of it. As far as stupidity watch the Death Star attack run from launch to the start of breaching the shields and tell me that it doesn't require massive G's to be pulled.

Here you make the assumption that everyone understands...
Yes I do, most people can do the basics of; Death Star far away + short travel time = high acceleration.
Tell me what any of this has to do with hyperspace and taking weeks to cross a galaxy?

My point you dumbass is that the EU is the source of the majority of the minimalist bullshit, so screaming at him to READ MOAR EU! is nt going to help matters.
The same EU that has X-Wings moving at .9 of the speed of light in real space, and pulling micro-jumps in gravity wells? (aka: NJO) Yeah, what I thought.
This is about him assuming that Wars ships can't pull multi-thousand G acceleration because it doesn't feel right and not even knowing the basics of a universe he had been talking about on a site where, by name alone, such knowledge should be assumed, for not realizing that a ship designed for atmosphere might not be easily design in atmosphere inspite of various topic in this forum, OSF and SLAM on the subject.

Here you assume everyone has the same knowledge of science as the 'average' SDN poster.
Well he is an SDN poster isn't he? Should I lower my expectations so we can let all the pleebs in now without them feeling slighted?
Did I name enough stupidity there for you?

No you didn't. You failed to point out where he said anything that would require you to eviscerate him. You had no reason to do it except you wanting to show your ass.
You say that as if people haven't been flamer for less.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by NoogDeNoog »

Norade doesn't bother me, he's Canadian. Let's move on.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by Simon_Jester »

Moving on, we have plenty of evidence of generated artificial gravity in Star Wars; if you can generate gravity you can do at least some degree of on-board inertial damping. The obvious way to do it is to generate a uniform gravitational pull matching the ship's acceleration on everything inside the ship. That way, everything is effectively in free fall in the direction of travel; you don't get flattened into your chair by acceleration if you aren't accelerating relative to the chair.

Of course, then you would need a second artificial gravity field to keep everyone pulled toward the floor...
______

Likewise, we have evidence of tractor beams. Consider what a tractor beam would act like if you used it backwards- a "pressor beam." You could use that either to push away small objects, or to push yourself away from a large object. This provides a way to lift off from a planet without frying it, which Star Wars appears to call "repulsorlift." Repulsorlift drives are used in most atmospheric flying craft (Luke's speeder, Jabba the Hutt's sailbarge, the snowspeeders on Hoth) in Star Wars, which is handy because it lets them keep those things in the air even though they have truly shitty aerodynamics.

Thus, we conclude that the Falcon had a repulsorlift drive to lift off from Mos Eisley without frying it (likewise, the Rebel fighters must have had one to take off from the Rebel base). This is supported by the fact that the ships in question are obviously NOT throwing out rocket exhaust towards the ground in order to lift off- they don't even have visible exhaust nozzles pointing in that direction.
______

There is further evidence that X-Wings (and, presumably, other Star Wars ships) are capable of very high accelerations on the order of 1000g. I am not as confident as some here that I know how those accelerations are achieved, but the general consensus seems to be that Star Wars ships use extremely powerful reaction drives, with internal gravity generation to avoid turning the crews into jelly in the process.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by NoogDeNoog »

"It's markings match those of a ship that blasted its way out of Mos Eisley."

That is why I asked that, it seems to me that Han had to make a quick take off and followed the normal procedure.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by Ghost Rider »

Enough with the one note posting.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by Xess »

NoogDeNoog wrote:"It's markings match those of a ship that blasted its way out of Mos Eisley."

That is why I asked that, it seems to me that Han had to make a quick take off and followed the normal procedure.
Han was in a firefight with Stormtroopers as he left. The officer was likely referring to that.

As to Airborne assault, the Republic used Clonetroopers with jetpacks. Did the Empire keep any equivalent troops?
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by Abacus »

Simon_Jester wrote:Moving on, we have plenty of evidence of generated artificial gravity in Star Wars; if you can generate gravity you can do at least some degree of on-board inertial damping. The obvious way to do it is to generate a uniform gravitational pull matching the ship's acceleration on everything inside the ship. That way, everything is effectively in free fall in the direction of travel; you don't get flattened into your chair by acceleration if you aren't accelerating relative to the chair.

Of course, then you would need a second artificial gravity field to keep everyone pulled toward the floor...
______

Likewise, we have evidence of tractor beams. Consider what a tractor beam would act like if you used it backwards- a "pressor beam." You could use that either to push away small objects, or to push yourself away from a large object. This provides a way to lift off from a planet without frying it, which Star Wars appears to call "repulsorlift." Repulsorlift drives are used in most atmospheric flying craft (Luke's speeder, Jabba the Hutt's sailbarge, the snowspeeders on Hoth) in Star Wars, which is handy because it lets them keep those things in the air even though they have truly shitty aerodynamics.

Thus, we conclude that the Falcon had a repulsorlift drive to lift off from Mos Eisley without frying it (likewise, the Rebel fighters must have had one to take off from the Rebel base). This is supported by the fact that the ships in question are obviously NOT throwing out rocket exhaust towards the ground in order to lift off- they don't even have visible exhaust nozzles pointing in that direction.
______

There is further evidence that X-Wings (and, presumably, other Star Wars ships) are capable of very high accelerations on the order of 1000g. I am not as confident as some here that I know how those accelerations are achieved, but the general consensus seems to be that Star Wars ships use extremely powerful reaction drives, with internal gravity generation to avoid turning the crews into jelly in the process.

I have to agree completely. We also have to imagine that since they are, what, how many millennium in the future from us? and therefore capable of producing a fuel source that doesn't create the same excesses that our rocket fuels do for us. I.E. when you see the ships in the movies power their engines up, the sources "glow" but don't make the "rocket" blast that craft for us do. So that could mean, as I said, that there is a different fuel that emits a different type of excess energy from its propulsion; meaning you won't have hot lava where the landing pad once was.

@NoogDeNoog: And yeah, the officer was referring to firefight between Han and the stormtroopers. Not his ship
s take-off.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

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Xess wrote:
As to Airborne assault, the Republic used Clonetroopers with jetpacks. Did the Empire keep any equivalent troops?
You would hope so. We know for a fact that the Empire continued to upgrade its military hardware, and would simply send what was older to the Outer Rim and Mid Rim where the older equipment would have continued to be state of the art. But for them to entirely cut off from useful vehicles and weapons like the LAAT and such, would seem rather idiot to me.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

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NoogDeNoog wrote:"It's markings match those of a ship that blasted its way out of Mos Eisley."
That is why I asked that, it seems to me that Han had to make a quick take off and followed the normal procedure.
...which would be to use REPULSORLIFT for the initial stages of takeoff to make sure Mos Eisley is still there for him to return to when he gets back. I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by Transbot9 »

Abacus wrote:
Xess wrote:
As to Airborne assault, the Republic used Clonetroopers with jetpacks. Did the Empire keep any equivalent troops?
You would hope so. We know for a fact that the Empire continued to upgrade its military hardware, and would simply send what was older to the Outer Rim and Mid Rim where the older equipment would have continued to be state of the art. But for them to entirely cut off from useful vehicles and weapons like the LAAT and such, would seem rather idiot to me.
Force Unleashed Star Wars Saga splatbook P. 179: Jump Troopers. Since the time frame is about 5 years before ANH, I doubt the Imps got rid of them - they just aren't as prolific as your basic Stormtrooper.

BTW, what about Gladiators? Having an escort carrier around is always handy.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Transbot9 wrote:Force Unleashed Star Wars Saga splatbook P. 179: Jump Troopers. Since the time frame is about 5 years before ANH, I doubt the Imps got rid of them - they just aren't as prolific as your basic Stormtrooper.
Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy also features Rocket Troopers (possibly a Rebel colloquialism for the Imperial Jumptroopers) who serve the same function in 14ABY.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by NoogDeNoog »

Transbot9 wrote:
Abacus wrote:
Xess wrote:
As to Airborne assault, the Republic used Clonetroopers with jetpacks. Did the Empire keep any equivalent troops?
You would hope so. We know for a fact that the Empire continued to upgrade its military hardware, and would simply send what was older to the Outer Rim and Mid Rim where the older equipment would have continued to be state of the art. But for them to entirely cut off from useful vehicles and weapons like the LAAT and such, would seem rather idiot to me.
Force Unleashed Star Wars Saga splatbook P. 179: Jump Troopers. Since the time frame is about 5 years before ANH, I doubt the Imps got rid of them - they just aren't as prolific as your basic Stormtrooper.

BTW, what about Gladiators? Having an escort carrier around is always handy.

The Gladiator seems more like a light cruiser than a star destroyer. As for it being an escort carrier, I would rather have the Escort Carrier's 72 ties to the Gladiator's 24.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by NoogDeNoog »

Batman wrote:
NoogDeNoog wrote:"It's markings match those of a ship that blasted its way out of Mos Eisley."
That is why I asked that, it seems to me that Han had to make a quick take off and followed the normal procedure.
...which would be to use REPULSORLIFT for the initial stages of takeoff to make sure Mos Eisley is still there for him to return to when he gets back. I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here.
If you watch the movie, Han barely clears the top of landing bay 94 when his ship is at full power. With what everyone has been saying about lava pools and all the environmental destruction that these engines can cause, why wasn't landing bay 94 and the area around it destroyed? The reason I say the engines are at full power is because they change color to a bright blue and it takes him less than 10 seconds to exit the atmosphere. I realize that he used repulsors to get off the ground, but his engines are at full power and he isn't even 20 meters off the ground.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by Ghost Rider »

NoogDeNoog wrote:
Batman wrote:
NoogDeNoog wrote:"It's markings match those of a ship that blasted its way out of Mos Eisley."
That is why I asked that, it seems to me that Han had to make a quick take off and followed the normal procedure.
...which would be to use REPULSORLIFT for the initial stages of takeoff to make sure Mos Eisley is still there for him to return to when he gets back. I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here.
If you watch the movie, Han barely clears the top of landing bay 94 when his ship is at full power. With what everyone has been saying about lava pools and all the environmental destruction that these engines can cause, why wasn't landing bay 94 and the area around it destroyed? The reason I say the engines are at full power is because they change color to a bright blue and it takes him less than 10 seconds to exit the atmosphere. I realize that he used repulsors to get off the ground, but his engines are at full power and he isn't even 20 meters off the ground.
Or...maybe just maybe the docking bays are meant to take that level of exhaust.

And prove that the engines are supposed to destroy the docking bay. Just making a claim that they have that level of power is just a bold and empty claim.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by Batman »

NoogDeNoog wrote:
Batman wrote:
NoogDeNoog wrote:"It's markings match those of a ship that blasted its way out of Mos Eisley."
That is why I asked that, it seems to me that Han had to make a quick take off and followed the normal procedure.
...which would be to use REPULSORLIFT for the initial stages of takeoff to make sure Mos Eisley is still there for him to return to when he gets back. I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here.
If you watch the movie, Han barely clears the top of landing bay 94 when his ship is at full power.
As evidenced by-what, exactly?
With what everyone has been saying about lava pools and all the environmental destruction that these engines can cause, why wasn't landing bay 94 and the area around it destroyed? The reason I say the engines are at full power is because they change color to a bright blue and it takes him less than 10 seconds to exit the atmosphere. I realize that he used repulsors to get off the ground, but his engines are at full power and he isn't even 20 meters off the ground.
As evidenced by you saying so and that's about it. ALL you know its the engines glowed brightly. For all you know they were being abused as radiators to get rid of waste heat while the repulsorlifts did all the work. Not that leaving the atmosphere inside of 10 seconds requires anywhere NEAR full power. Ground to LEO (400km) in 10 seconds requires a measly 800g. 100km (easily outside what can reasonably be considered atmosphere) 200g. And there's nothing saying he CAN'T have done it on repulsorlift. IIRC the ANH novelization pretty much states that close to a planet the preferred method of propulsion IS repulsorlift.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

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Or...maybe just maybe the docking bays are meant to take that level of exhaust.

And prove that the engines are supposed to destroy the docking bay. Just making a claim that they have that level of power is just a bold and empty claim.
So engines can turn everything into lava pools but don't do any harm to an old docking bay? BTW, what is with the attitude? Are you like this to everyone or is it just me? The claim of how powerful the engines are was not mine.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

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NoogDeNoog wrote:

Or...maybe just maybe the docking bays are meant to take that level of exhaust.

And prove that the engines are supposed to destroy the docking bay. Just making a claim that they have that level of power is just a bold and empty claim.
So engines can turn everything into lava pools but don't do any harm to an old docking bay? BTW, what is with the attitude? Are you like this to everyone or is it just me? The claim of how powerful the engines are was not mine.
...*sigh*

1. My attitude is solely based upon the fact that here, now, you have made a rather large claim. This requires PROOF. I don't care if you heard it elsewhere. Demonstrate said proof. Present something that can be either verified or denied. Not heresay.

2. Aside from you making multiple one liner posts? Those constitute as SPAM. As per the rules, that I will assume you have at least noticed, glanced, or thought we might have.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by NoogDeNoog »

So just for future reference, increase engine glow is not an indication of an increase in power output. Got it.

According to WEGs, repulsors have an operational ceiling, are they wrong about that to?
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

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NoogDeNoog wrote: The Gladiator seems more like a light cruiser than a star destroyer. As for it being an escort carrier, I would rather have the Escort Carrier's 72 ties to the Gladiator's 24.
My bad - I should watch what I post when I'm tired a little more. It's a multi-role vessel capable of supporting itself that acts as a miniature Star Destroyer - so it plays the same role, even though it's a quarter the size. At least, that's the explanation I get from the RPG-book. As such, it probably can serve as an invasion craft due to it's smaller size.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by Norade »

May I jump on Noog as an idiot now? :P
NoogDeNoog wrote:So just for future reference, increase engine glow is not an indication of an increase in power output. Got it.

According to WEGs, repulsors have an operational ceiling, are they wrong about that to?
First off, just so you know now, a lot of what WEG wrote is shit and is completely shown to be wrong in many other sources. As for repuslors having an operation ceiling they do, according to wookiepedia - so take it with a grain of salt the limit is this:

"Repulsorlifts only worked within a gravity well, as the technology required mass to push against. For a typical habitable planet such as Alderaan, "antigrav range" was approximately six planetary diameters, or around seventy-five thousand kilometers. Repulsorlifts used minimal power and were reliable enough to be utilized continuously. "

So, in all likelihood, the Falcon was well within repulsor range for the entire chase scene and trip to hyperspace. Only when he reached Alderaan would he have needed to use his reaction drive.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by Ghost Rider »

NoogDeNoog wrote:So just for future reference, increase engine glow is not an indication of an increase in power output. Got it.
Why do you accept that? Did you try any sort of analysis, is it any sort of proof?
According to WEGs, repulsors have an operational ceiling, are they wrong about that to?
If you could provide something that says how high for what the size, possible mass/weight of said object?

Both of these are problems you've demonstrated. You just simply throw things out there without actually trying to analyze, contend or prove.

I'll be generous and say you should ask first before just simply assuming.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by Batman »

NoogDeNoog wrote:So just for future reference, increase engine glow is not an indication of an increase in power output. Got it.
According to WEGs, repulsors have an operational ceiling, are they wrong about that to?
That would depend on where they put that ceiling :D Again, according to the ANH novelization repulsorlift is effective out to orbital distances and then some.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

Post by Simon_Jester »

NoogDeNoog wrote:
Or...maybe just maybe the docking bays are meant to take that level of exhaust.
And prove that the engines are supposed to destroy the docking bay. Just making a claim that they have that level of power is just a bold and empty claim.
So engines can turn everything into lava pools but don't do any harm to an old docking bay? BTW, what is with the attitude? Are you like this to everyone or is it just me? The claim of how powerful the engines are was not mine.
Yes, they are like this to everyone, or at least everyone they can get away with doing it to whenever they feel like it. Consider the definition of "mockery of stupid people" as applied by human beings and it shouldn't come as a surprise.

Seriously, here's the basic parameters:

Star Wars spacecraft are capable of accelerations on the order of 1000g. This requires a high power to weight ratio- trivially, if the ship is going from a standing start, in one second each ton of spacecraft gains .5mv^2 = .125m(at^2)^2 = 1.25*10^10 J, an amount of energy equivalent to that released by a few tons of high explosive. Per ton of ship, in one second.

Assuming Star Wars spacecraft use a normal reaction drive (which is the shakiest part of the argument, in my opinion), the exhaust from that drive must be extremely energetic- roughly as destructive as the blast wave of a major chemical explosion, since it's carrying a comparable amount of energy even for a small ship. After all, even something as small as an X-Wing weighs several tons. The Millenium Falcon is larger. That kind of exhaust plume really ought to be enough to level any building not specially braced to withstand it- something built up with the equivalent of many meters of reinforced concrete.

Of course, under normal conditions, a ship could certainly throttle back its engines to something around a few g. At those thrust levels, you're talking about much less energy release into the exhaust, more like the blast of heat from a jet engine- which is dangerous to unprotected humans, but not enough to destroy well designed buildings... for a small ship.

Things get much worse when you contemplate large ships, which need correspondingly beefier engines. At that point, the exhaust plume at maximum thrust will look like a sort of directional nuclear fireball, because you need the equivalent of a nuclear fireball in order to accelerate such gigantic objects at even a few g. In fact, that's the only way we've come up with so far to do it using known technology: build the spaceship on top of a giant metal plate and touch off nuclear bombs under the plate.

So it's unlikely that a large ship could land at all on its reaction drive, because it would do so much damage to the ground directly underneath it by firing the equivalent of a megaton-range flamethrower into it that it wouldn't have a stable landing field afterwards. There'd be lava all over the place, stuff like that. Smaller ships could conceivably do it if they had a well reinforced, heat resistant landing pad to work with.
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Re: Imperial era Airborne assault

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To the couple of bitches that are going "They are mean to everyone!!!". And thank you Simon, you want to bitch about moaning and I'd like to remind you of the rules.

Posting Rule 5
Debating Rule 5
Administrative Rule 2+4

Making snide off comments means you are either fed up with the board now, or are now getting fed up. The newbie is hardley being dogpiled given that he is just throwing assertions without even presenting evidence and then making conclusions from off the cuff statements.
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