SW ground forces vs WH40k ground forces

[Norade]

At first you would be right, but can Tyranids produce a gaunt a second armed with las-gun equivalents and without interdependence on a hive mind? Can they build drones with perfect knowledge of the anatomy of their foes and ensure that this point is aimed for and hit with machine precision? Can one world's biomass compare to one worlds mineral wealth? I don't think so.

Also while the Tyranids come in staggering numbers there is no reason droids can't come in the same ore more. Hell at reduced complexity you could fit slightly larger training remotes with a kill setting and drop them by the megaton on an army and if we assume a volume of 1.5 cubic feet you could fit a lot of them into a dedicated transport and insert them into a world.

Were not talking about the terminators here, the droids miss a lot, the films have them miss a lot, their accuracy is is on the general mass not a specfic part of the body, for example all of these droids were suited to take on combatants similir to themselves. The intensity of their firepower would be a prick to the Tyranid skin as a Tyranid is bigger, stronger and tougher. The size model and scope of the currant droids would not be suited to fighting a Tyranid. Also by your assement the droids should have won the clone wars (I have to admit the droids should espacilly with the battle droids, the bots with shielding and that machine can be built quicker then clone, you get the idea) It dosen't matter if they outnumber the tyranids 10 to 1, if they don't have the design to stand up and some serious firepower to back up then their gone. The droids aren't simply built to handle something like the Tyranids unless they were redesigned and such.

Is there some reason why droids can't be made more accurate? It's a simple problem of predicting where a certain part of a human body is a weighing the odds of hitting that with a shot and scoring a hit that may be less lethal even if they miss. Star Wars has the level of hardware to make this a possibility, and we can see droids being accurate in the movies as well as droids that miss a lot.

Also, prove that droids can't be armed in such a way that they will be lethal to Tyranids. There is no reason why you can't make a droideka type droid with shields that ignore Tyranid bio weapons, especially bio-acid, and arm it with a slower firing heavy blaster or disruptor, considered illegal for it effects on beings, and have them go to town on the bugs. You also ignore larger droids such as droid tanks and tank droids which my have a shorter build time than a similar type of Tyranid.

[NecronLord]

Is there some reason why droids can't be made more accurate?

Obviously not, as high end examples like Guri and some other assassin droids are very very capable. It is however likely that some cost-benefit ratio makes them uneconomical compared to B1s, for the added performance.

Also, prove that droids can't be armed in such a way that they will be lethal to Tyranids. There is no reason why you can't make a droideka type droid with shields that ignore Tyranid bio weapons, especially bio-acid,

Note that they couldn't use those shields while moving. Those particular shields are quite limited for mass deployment.

and arm it with a slower firing heavy blaster or disruptor, considered illegal for it effects on beings, and have them go to town on the bugs. You also ignore larger droids such as droid tanks and tank droids which my have a shorter build time than a similar type of Tyranid.

This is a fine point, of course.

There's no reason to assume 'nids would be any more numerous than the CIS or an equivalent force in the long run, though in a specific battle, they may tend to field larger numbers on average.

[Norade]

Is there some reason why droids can't be made more accurate?

Obviously not, as high end examples like Guri and some other assassin droids are very very capable. It is however likely that some cost-benefit ratio makes them uneconomical compared to B1s, for the added performance.

That seems more of a one time cost of software issue than anything, once you have a prototype it should cost little more to build en-masse than a similar worse droid unless it requires some exotic material and I see no reason why we should assume it requires such.

Also, prove that droids can't be armed in such a way that they will be lethal to Tyranids. There is no reason why you can't make a droideka type droid with shields that ignore Tyranid bio weapons, especially bio-acid...

Note that they couldn't use those shields while moving. Those particular shields are quite limited for mass deployment.

Yes, that is true, but moving and then stopping and shooting is a valid option for fighting Tyranids is it not?

Assuming you agree to my points here I think I will have proven that the Empire can and would use droids to defeat its enemies in the OP's scenario and that it is an efficient and cost effective way to fight such a battle.

[Elessar]

Is there some reason why droids can't be made more accurate?

Obviously not, as high end examples like Guri and some other assassin droids are very very capable. It is however likely that some cost-benefit ratio makes them uneconomical compared to B1s, for the added performance.

That seems more of a one time cost of software issue than anything, once you have a prototype it should cost little more to build en-masse than a similar worse droid unless it requires some exotic material and I see no reason why we should assume it requires such.

Uh, what? Are you not familiar with any sort of machining process?

Higher accuracy isn't just a matter of using what you have better, but machining the parts to a higher degree of precision, using more complicated assembly methods, sourcing higher quality (rare and more expensive) materials etc. etc.

There's nothing exotic about it. Higher performance requires higher quality parts. Software can only go so far to make up for low-grade materials.

[Norade]

Obviously not, as high end examples like Guri and some other assassin droids are very very capable. It is however likely that some cost-benefit ratio makes them uneconomical compared to B1s, for the added performance.

That seems more of a one time cost of software issue than anything, once you have a prototype it should cost little more to build en-masse than a similar worse droid unless it requires some exotic material and I see no reason why we should assume it requires such.

Uh, what? Are you not familiar with any sort of machining process?

Higher accuracy isn't just a matter of using what you have better, but machining the parts to a higher degree of precision, using more complicated assembly methods, sourcing higher quality (rare and more expensive) materials etc. etc.

There's nothing exotic about it. Higher performance requires higher quality parts. Software can only go so far to make up for low-grade materials.

No shit, but given the extent of Star Wars manufacturing and the droids we've seen there is no way in hell hardware to make a decent droid that can shoot accurately on the move would be vastly more expensive. Besides if you're going to drop an automated factory, why not spring the extra credits and equip it with higher grade tools and let them make the precise parts. It isn't like in real life where you need a master machinist to make your parts, in Star Wars a relatively simple droid brain can do it for little more than the cost of resources, which could well be an issue for super high end but I can't see being an issue for a droid which only needs to be able to point and shoot well, and the software required. However even shaving a few credits would be in character for the trade federation so it is likely they used the lowest of the low for their droids and the tools involved in making them.

[Simon_Jester]

I already stated that the NR was weakened from within by the Vong, something that is not the case in the OP's question. Thus we do not know that they would not have been quicker to use droids if they hadn't been corrupted from within. Certainly the Emperor would have had no such qualms about such a force as he has used droids in many cases including the Clone Wars, World Devestators, and TIE Droids.

Palpatine would not hesitate to use droids in war if he thought he might otherwise lose, yes, but the fact that there was no large droid component in the pre-Yavin starfleet suggests that Palpatine was still worried about the political fallout of using war droids.

Massed war droids would be an option, absolutely... but not an option that would be used casually, and not at the discretion of low-level field commanders.

There are reasons of pride and the ability for humans to be better than droids in peacetime and the fact that if needed droids can be had quickly and cheaply. Thus why would they not maintain human/alien crewed fleets and use droids and such for total war? In fact in the one large scale conflict we see and in others that are mentioned in history they are used repeatedly.

Yes, but ONLY for total war, and not always even then. Droids were used sparingly during the Jedi Civil War era (the Knights of the Old Republic games), which was a pretty damned major war. The Republic made little use of droids during the Clone Wars, even though they clearly had the resources to do so.

This supports the idea that while massed use of war droids is a known strategic option in Star Wars, it is not one that Star Wars powers embrace casually or quickly, unless they urgently need a powerful military and cannot train one fast enough. Again, something like that will be a strategic decision, not one made by commanders of planet-level actions on the spot.

When war came Palpatine used image to control the population pitting the loyal clones against the evil machines for show and effect. It simply happens that the corporates were choose by Palpatine to be the droids as they were against the government.

But why did the corporates choose to use droids? They obviously had a substantial infrastructure dedicated to battledroid forces before the Clone Wars even began, probably before Palpatine was actively involved in setting the war up at all. So they chose to use a droid army... and the Republic did not. That suggests that droids were more appealing to the corporate factions than to the Republic for some reason, and that the Republic was at least somewhat reluctant to use them even when it had the capability to do so.

That seems more of a one time cost of software issue than anything, once you have a prototype it should cost little more to build en-masse than a similar worse droid unless it requires some exotic material and I see no reason why we should assume it requires such.

It could be a computer hardware constraint. Most of the battledroid behavior we see in the prequels could be handled by a decent expert system; the droids don't need to be all that intelligent. More advanced assassin droids need better AI, and may require more CPU capacity and so forth.

While Star Wars has no trouble fitting human-level intelligence into a human-sized robot, that may be close to the physical limits on their computer hardware, such that they'll try to cut down on the intelligence of the droid to save money if they can get away with it.

[Falkenhayn]

The proof may lie in Eisenhorn, but until I dig it up, I concede this point, Balrog.

Concession retracted in light of new evidence.

The Rogue Trader Rulebook, pg. 162 states..."an astropathic signal will cross a solar system in moments, across a sub-sector in hours, a sector in days, and if strong enough, a Segmentum in weeks, and so on". This is under normal conditions. Astropathic Relays are located on "major star vessels" and in facilities on important worlds (same source, pg. 163), and enhance the strength and security of the relayed message (same citation).

[PainRack]

So... would I be right in thinking that most people here would be arguing for droid armies vs Wh40k forces?

[Connor MacLeod]

So... would I be right in thinking that most people here would be arguing for droid armies vs Wh40k forces?

Not me. Droids are used as a "last resort" tactic if they do, and usually only in a qualitative supplmeent to organic troops (EG Dark Empire, NJO etc.)

pure Droid armies post clone Wars simply do not show up for some reason. Its unlikely its for technical or monetary reasons - the investment put into the Death STar was fairly trivial and it could have produced huge armies. And anyone with access to SW fabrication tech (construction droids, etc., which don't seem all that rare or restricted a technology either) could build droid armies on any planet or asteroid field if they wished. Yet we never see them. Not even the Rebels, who definitely could have used such armies. (We know Alderaan had access to that sort of tech - its what they used in the Another chance frigate and its escorts. Nevermind the example of built in droid automation on assault frigates)

It seems likely that droid armies are taboo simply for irrational, human reasons. Possibly, they're illegal (Palpatine may have engineered th clone Wars as he did to prevent any future opponents from using the "droid army" option) or teir use is stigmatised as a result of the clone Wars.

If SW went "all out" and we assume they acted rationally? Yes they would use droid armies, and they would probably drown most 40K forcse (Imperium, etc.) in any number of droids needed, irrespective of quality. Or they could just unleeash robotic warships to destroy 40K planets. But if this were a "gloves are off' type scenario, why would 40K be similarily hampered? Any irrational BS that prevents SW from utilizing its own capabilities to its fullest extent is no worse than stuff 40K faces (The AdMech, for example.) and we know 40K will act "practical" as well if the situation is serious enough (Black Crusades WILL force the Admech to try innovation and research far faster than usual if they are pressed to it.) Or something more along the lines of the "Great Crusade" or "Reign of Blood" type scenario. I should dig up that bit in Dark Apostle about the mass produced servitor super-army the AdMech unleashed there. That's about as close (I think) as the Imperium would come to a droid spam, but even then I'm not sure they'd neccesarily match SW, I never looked into it and alot of speculation all around is required.

Anyhow, if you're going to apply droids in a debate, it probably should have some limits on it unless you just want HUMAN WAVE DROID style tactics. Or assume a more "probable" scenario where they just aren't assumed to crank off massive droid armies at the drop of a hat.

[Norade]

So... would I be right in thinking that most people here would be arguing for droid armies vs Wh40k forces?

Not me. Droids are used as a "last resort" tactic if they do, and usually only in a qualitative supplmeent to organic troops (EG Dark Empire, NJO etc.)

pure Droid armies post clone Wars simply do not show up for some reason. Its unlikely its for technical or monetary reasons - the investment put into the Death STar was fairly trivial and it could have produced huge armies. And anyone with access to SW fabrication tech (construction droids, etc., which don't seem all that rare or restricted a technology either) could build droid armies on any planet or asteroid field if they wished. Yet we never see them. Not even the Rebels, who definitely could have used such armies. (We know Alderaan had access to that sort of tech - its what they used in the Another chance frigate and its escorts. Nevermind the example of built in droid automation on assault frigates)

It seems likely that droid armies are taboo simply for irrational, human reasons. Possibly, they're illegal (Palpatine may have engineered th clone Wars as he did to prevent any future opponents from using the "droid army" option) or teir use is stigmatised as a result of the clone Wars.

If SW went "all out" and we assume they acted rationally? Yes they would use droid armies, and they would probably drown most 40K forcse (Imperium, etc.) in any number of droids needed, irrespective of quality. Or they could just unleeash robotic warships to destroy 40K planets. But if this were a "gloves are off' type scenario, why would 40K be similarily hampered? Any irrational BS that prevents SW from utilizing its own capabilities to its fullest extent is no worse than stuff 40K faces (The AdMech, for example.) and we know 40K will act "practical" as well if the situation is serious enough (Black Crusades WILL force the Admech to try innovation and research far faster than usual if they are pressed to it.) Or something more along the lines of the "Great Crusade" or "Reign of Blood" type scenario. I should dig up that bit in Dark Apostle about the mass produced servitor super-army the AdMech unleashed there. That's about as close (I think) as the Imperium would come to a droid spam, but even then I'm not sure they'd neccesarily match SW, I never looked into it and alot of speculation all around is required.

Anyhow, if you're going to apply droids in a debate, it probably should have some limits on it unless you just want HUMAN WAVE DROID style tactics. Or assume a more "probable" scenario where they just aren't assumed to crank off massive droid armies at the drop of a hat.

I have said that part of the aversion to droids in NJO was due to the tactics of the Vong infiltrators which sowed such dissent in the already bad government that it took them time to even start fighting back. The reborn Emperor did use a lot of droids created in the limited time he was back, the Imperial Remnant could have used droids, but they spent so much time fighting each other and squabbling that they didn't do anything well. The Old Republic, was the last 'unified' government to face a major war, and the man controlling them used a droid force on one side and clones on the other, neither army was socially acceptable, but was used.

The OP's question was this: "So, how would you configure such an army? Assuming one army from the NR era and another from the Imperial Endor era."

The Imperial Endor era had Palpatine who should he would use non-popular means to win a war and he had all sorts of plans for a total war brewing already - the Vong - this included clones and droids as options for the fighting force. Thus in at least one era droids would be used, maybe not as a first option, but they should be considered as an option assuming both sides have equal knowledge of each other.

[PainRack]

It strikes me that droids crewed AT weapons would be the preferable arm for Imperial/Republic armies, aimed at Imperium armour. An Imperium armoured regiment arguably has more tanks than an Imperial Army battlegroup. Certainly, the effect of a Baneblade or a Titan would be entirely out of proportion to its mass.

Against such superheavy tanks,there appears to be only two options.Massed firepower like starfighter torpedoes, which might not be viable for valuable terrain or the use of massed numbers to swarm such units under.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Conner does bring up a good point though. When the Imperium is pressured, the Adeptus Mechanicus have an uncanny habit of bringing out their finest (or go digging for solutions while praying to the Omnissiah) and giving it to the Imperium. It has been broadly hinted the Tech Guard are far better equipped than most Imperial Guard Regiments.

[Falkenhayn]

It strikes me that droids crewed AT weapons would be the preferable arm for Imperial/Republic armies, aimed at Imperium armour. An Imperium armoured regiment arguably has more tanks than an Imperial Army battlegroup. Certainly, the effect of a Baneblade or a Titan would be entirely out of proportion to its mass.

The Ad Mech has similar tactics for combating Chaos Titan legions and super heavy armor. They deploy machine spirit controlled heavy weapons (Kataphracts and Clibinarii) as well. They also deploy regiments of Skitarii, specific to Titan legions, who are quite heavily augmented (not quite to Astartes level), and lobotomized into basset hounds with implanted hellguns, power blades and chain glaives. Specifically, they protect the Titans from massed boarding assaults and ambushes in built-up areas, while threatening the same.

Against such superheavy tanks,there appears to be only two options.Massed firepower like starfighter torpedoes, which might not be viable for valuable terrain or the use of massed numbers to swarm such units under.

Not so much massed infantry, unless its in truly biblical numbers with fanatical motivation, or heavily augmented as above. Even then, losses are likely to be prohibitive. The IoM's idea of a war is grinding through planetary defenses or enormous urban environments for decades or centuries if need be. Their much-maligned tank designs are lousy with sponson and turret mounted anti-personnel weapons for just that reason. I don't know just how well they would perform in more open country; WR has better numbers on IoM tank speed than I do, and my copy of Honor Guard is long gone.

Starfighters or orbital strikes are probably the ideal solutions, though Tank Droids, or those (SPHAT?) ground-to-air walkers from SW2 may do. Superheavy armor is "relatively" rare in regimental strength, though IoM tank regiments may have a single Baneblade or Shadowsword serving as mobile HQ, up to a company of three if they are well equipped. However, when the need arose, the IoM has consolidated super heavy armor in theater into ad hoc regiments, normally to fight a Titan-scale threat when friendly Titans aren't available.

There's no guarantee that Titans will be deployed anyway, at least initially. It's the GE's bad luck that they represent a political and social threat as well, simply by their existence, so it grows more likely that they will be deployed as IoM intelligence increases and the conflict goes on.

[PainRack]

There's no guarantee that Titans will be deployed anyway, at least initially. It's the GE's bad luck that they represent a political and social threat as well, simply by their existence, so it grows more likely that they will be deployed as IoM intelligence increases and the conflict goes on.

Well, the OP point wasn't so much an GE invade Imperium or any other direct vs thread. More of a force on force conflict, and how the GE could configure its forces to confront any Wh40k force.

[Serafina]

Titan Legions are not THAT rare. Most major worlds have at least as small legion (fortress worlds, lots of macropole worlds etc.), while Adeptus-Mechanicus worlds have several of them.

The number of Titans is (relatively) small, but thats because a Legion only contains a couple of Titans. And apparently, legions get split a lot - we see a lot of Demi-Legions, understrenght legions and the like. 'While this does not increase the number of titans, it DOES increase the number of Titan legions - presumably the reason for the splitting, as you rarely need the full force of a legion anyway.

So it is not unlikely to run into some Titans if you attack an significant world.

[starfury]

Certainly, the effect of a Baneblade or a Titan would be entirely out of proportion to its mass.

A A6 Juggernaut or the AT-AT is at a rough counterpart, so something of that size on the Battlefield even for small engagement would not be unknown to Imperial forces, the main shock would be the sheer quantity of armor for comparable force then, as the GE forces always seems relatively small in comparsion to comparable Imperium armies.

[Falkenhayn]

Well, the OP point wasn't so much an GE invade Imperium or any other direct vs thread. More of a force on force conflict, and how the GE could configure its forces to confront any Wh40k force.

Well, yeah. That's pretty much what my post, aside from the part you quoted, was about, because you raised specific circumstances. I thought I made it pretty clear that massed infantry is silly, droid heavy weapon equivalents are already used by the IoM in roles you put forward, and that air or orbital strikes are the ideal way of dealing with Titans and super-heavies. Moreover, there is no guarantee that the GE will run into decisive numbers of the same, unless you consider the deployment of a handful of them to be decisive.

[Connor MacLeod]

Conner does bring up a good point though. When the Imperium is pressured, the Adeptus Mechanicus have an uncanny habit of bringing out their finest (or go digging for solutions while praying to the Omnissiah) and giving it to the Imperium. It has been broadly hinted the Tech Guard are far better equipped than most Imperial Guard Regiments.

Yes, in theory it could, but there's a ton of speculation involved there that really renders it more akin to more idealized "what if" scenarios, and I'm never quite comfortable with those because you can in theory come up with any number of super fantastic wonder tactics to apply. I mean for one thing you'd probably see the reintroduction of space Marine legions and another "Great Crusade" type atmosphere as if the Emperor would be back (in an ideal situation, he probably WOULD be back, and that changes things a whole fucking lot.)


The same applies to SW and droids. I mean you could argue they could pump out quadrillions of YVK style droids or "Dark Trooper" style droids aboard thousands/millions of Executor-type automated super warships, all of which with their own independent droid brains. Even though we really can't say we've seen this capability - even the "automated" forces we've seen are largely "centrally controlled" - the Separatist Droid armies were all heavily centrally controlled with at most limited autonomy (a backup/emergency featuer at best) and we saw that again with the World Devastators. When we do see fully autonomous droids they tend to largely be in a supplementary role (backing up organic forces, EG in Dark Empire 2 or NJO war.)


I mean if you thought about it, if SW had the ability and the will to do what I described above, why should Palpy have executed the roundabout plan he did to take over the REpublic? Why not just steamroll a non-militaristic and highly corrupt republic with trillions or quadirllions of battle droids (even crappy ones?) He could have saved decades that way. For whatever reason they simply don't do that any more than we see the Imperium tossing out combat servitors by the trillion.


Besides, that sort of speculative debate always feels like what you see the more rabid trekkie types or any other fanboy try doing (pulling all sorts of one shot weapons or lost tech out and mixing and matching for some sort of "instant win" button even if that utterly fails to match 'reality') - the only time I'd ever even consider the above is as a counter to such fanboyism, anyways.

[Connor MacLeod]

With regard to the whole "Titans/Superheavy" thing, most of the heavy-end SW walkers/artillery or the Juggernaut style things probably could match a superheavy or a small titan (warhound perhaps - Warhouds can be threatend by tanks after all) in terms of firepower (juggernauts and AT-ATs have starfighter grade firepower remember.) All else fails there are the SPHA-Ts (Which would be analogues IMHO to a Shadow Sword in that role, I might add.)

Titans IMHO as a threat are overstated generally - yeah they're big and shielded and often carry alot of weaponry, but they're also basically slow as fuck to build. They're quality, but they're also largely "prestige" weapons if anything - Superheaves IIRC are more rapidly built and in numbers they can threaten even a Titan in terms of firepower. (Hell if you get enough tanks together under a Titan's shields THEY can threaten a Titan.) I'd personally be more worried about Shadowswords and other superheavy tanks (some of which can mass as much as a Titan and also carry void shields or powerfields, I might add.)

You could use starfighters of course to hunt titans, but the Imperium tends to do the same thing, so I'd expect parity in that regard (If there's air support the Imperial starfighters owuld hunt the SW ones. And Imperial ones tend to be bigger too.)

All that said, I realy have to point out that if we're going to discuss this it will be a bit time consuming, there are ALOt of variables to hash out and you have to take into account alot of different things. For example, the ground forces of the Republic era are quite a bit different form the Imperial era - better in some ways in fact I'd say. Your average Imperial Army trooper isn't nearly as well equipped or well armored for one thing. Hell, even the Storm troopers aren't, and this reflects changes in role and doctrine over the intervening decades. (Of course the REpublic had the hwole "learning to fight" curve, and still did some incredibly stupid shit, wheras in the Imperial era they seem to have become more of a peacekeeping/policing force, and military is utilized more for economic and political reasons than anything else.) Militarization is also a factor (the IoM is arguably far more militarized than the GE or OR, which is at least an initial advantag.e The Imperium is also arguably more used to fighting or dealing with imperfect situations given its FTL/comm situation than the Empire is, which in many ways relies on the Speed of hyperdrive for its effieicny in matters.)

Throwing in other (non Imperium) forces into the mix will just complicate things even more. (on a larger scale for example how would a probe droid spam into the 40k galaxy fare without holonet access, and the presence of all sorts of insane warpy shit like warp storms, warp portals/gates, 12,000 mile space whales, etc.)

PS: I know this largely focused on ground forces, which does help simplify thigns some, but my point still stands.

[PainRack]

Titans IMHO as a threat are overstated generally - yeah they're big and shielded and often carry alot of weaponry, but they're also basically slow as fuck to build. They're quality, but they're also largely "prestige" weapons if anything - Superheaves IIRC are more rapidly built and in numbers they can threaten even a Titan in terms of firepower. (Hell if you get enough tanks together under a Titan's shields THEY can threaten a Titan.) I'd personally be more worried about Shadowswords and other superheavy tanks (some of which can mass as much as a Titan and also carry void shields or powerfields, I might add.)

Yeah. At least we don't get steam powered Gargants proving a threat to fusion powered Titans..........

All that said, I realy have to point out that if we're going to discuss this it will be a bit time consuming, there are ALOt of variables to hash out and you have to take into account alot of different things.

Shrugs. We have all the time in the world and frankly, there really isn't anything "new" worth discussing about for SW fans.

For example, the ground forces of the Republic era are quite a bit different form the Imperial era - better in some ways in fact I'd say. Your average Imperial Army trooper isn't nearly as well equipped or well armored for one thing. Hell, even the Storm troopers aren't, and this reflects changes in role and doctrine over the intervening decades. (Of course the REpublic had the hwole "learning to fight" curve, and still did some incredibly stupid shit, wheras in the Imperial era they seem to have become more of a peacekeeping/policing force, and military is utilized more for economic and political reasons than anything else.)

You are talking about the Galactic Republic right?
Another point to note is that as of the Imperial era, they are noted for commonly using EW warfare, intercepting messages for intel and acting on it(Dark Force Rising), sending out false messages in combat(Friendly Hutt), The Thrawn duology had Lando accepting the fiction that stormtroopers was equipped with sensor suites during the Wayland encounter....

Their C3 network was also remarkably horizontally distributed, with stormtroopers ordering the closure of blast doors in A New Hope on the Death Star, although the Endor debacle.............

PS: I know this largely focused on ground forces, which does help simplify thigns some, but my point still stands.

Won't a force on force confrontation simplify the terms so that debate can be done? There must be some way to simplify debate about ground armies in a somewhat realistic way.

[starfury]

Won't a force on force confrontation simplify the terms so that debate can be done? There must be some way to simplify debate about ground armies in a somewhat realistic way.

Would Help Greatly as it would allow us to know when the Superheavy units, Titans come into play, all these for conflict that is already moving into a full fledged galactic War, not the relatively contained skirmirsh, where both sides may not want to bring heavy Units of the AT-AT or Titan level.

[Simon_Jester]

Their C3 network was also remarkably horizontally distributed, with stormtroopers ordering the closure of blast doors in A New Hope on the Death Star, although the Endor debacle.............

Assuming you mean the breakdown of Imperial C3 in the space battle, that's easy enough to explain. At the low levels, the Imperial C3 system is mostly governed by pragmatism; in a trillion-being military where all chains of command are ten to twenty beings long, political decrees from on high won't necessarily have as much impact as the New Order theorists would like to believe.

At the higher levels, where individual officers receive more Imperial scrutiny, the system works more like the Emperor wants it to... which is objectively a bad system.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah. At least we don't get steam powered Gargants proving a threat to fusion powered Titans..........

Actually some gargants are nuclear powered if I remember my Armageddon onvels right. What's really funny are the fossil fuel powered starfighters

Then again on the other end there are weirdboyz who function as lances on capital ships so.. go figure. They probably have weirdboy reactors too for all we know lol.

Orks seem to operate a crude version of the psychic engineering the Eldar do - trading sophisitcation for reliability and versatility. Orks have remarkably good forcefield technology also, so they gotta be getting energy from somewhere if they can match Imperial firepower.

Shrugs. We have all the time in the world and frankly, there really isn't anything "new" worth discussing about for SW fans.

true

You are talking about the Galactic Republic right?

Clone Wars era Republic.

Another point to note is that as of the Imperial era, they are noted for commonly using EW warfare, intercepting messages for intel and acting on it(Dark Force Rising), sending out false messages in combat(Friendly Hutt), The Thrawn duology had Lando accepting the fiction that stormtroopers was equipped with sensor suites during the Wayland encounter....

So does the guard. The latest IG novel featuring the Cadians had significant comm and sensor jamming. They have battlefield technologies dedicated to it (blind grenades and missiles, which create a smokescreen that can somehow block sensors as well as visibility). Hell even the orks have been known to do jamming, if I remember some of the novels I've read correctly.

Their C3 network was also remarkably horizontally distributed, with stormtroopers ordering the closure of blast doors in A New Hope on the Death Star, although the Endor debacle.............

Who were they talking to though? Doors might not be manually operated.. they could be automated and he was just talking to the computer.

And Endor was notable for the mixed military and command structure: you had Army, Navy, and Storm troopers there and no clear lines of command beyond the Emperor. Inter-service rivalry is a well known fact in the Empire, along with all the other problems (corruption, nepotism, etc.)

Won't a force on force confrontation simplify the terms so that debate can be done? There must be some way to simplify debate about ground armies in a somewhat realistic way.

Well then take it on a case by case basis and work up from there. Either a fixed number of troops, or a fixed number of similarily numbered regiments. You can mix and match from there, or exapnd to higher levels (inter-sector conflicts) or lower levels (cQB or special ops.) AT this level you still probably need to integrate naval elements of some kind (the Guard depends on naval support for transport as well as for air cover, unless you add the naval starfighter/fighter detachments or assume that the specialized aircraft regiments like the Phantine are included.)

I might also just focus on one era at a time, say just the Empire/Imperial Army for now. Republic could be covered later on.

[Connor MacLeod]

also my last few discussions with Ender had some interesting things to say about logistics and transport and how it influences troop sizes and contingents (and warfare) I'll have to pester him to see if I can post some of it.

[Simon_Jester]

Hell even the orks have been known to do jamming, if I remember some of the novels I've read correctly.

Let me guess: an ork with a radio yelling "WAAAGH!!!" loud enough to destroy every receiver in the area...