SD+SB in Middle Earth

[Sea Skimmer]

As for the bioweapon or chemical weapon, I was thinking something of a prion disease that could be used. We could have a vaccine for the elves no problem, the disease itself would be a modified protein much like CJD, fast, effective and transimissable. It also is a bugger to get rid of. It could be made to put the soldiers out but not kill them which would clog the enemy up with diseased.

Nerve agents can probably be made too, sarin or VX are the best bets, but I'd be well behind the lines if using that stuff with no NBC.

I'm not exactly fond of using biological weapons upon the enemy; I'm paranoid about it's ability to spread beyond it's target. We certainly don't have the resources of USAMRIID or the CDC to work with here.

...killjoy...

It's not like I was gonna make HIV or anything, c'mon, we can make at least something to poison their water supplies, Cholera per chance? Just a weeny bug, nothing major.

If not, you better believe I want my VX or orbital UV satellite system.

Just hauling a load of our shit over in hummers and dumping it in there water might take out alot of hostiles.

[phongn]

Ando brings up a good point. Would all of those of us with defective eyesight and corrective lenses be granted properly-working eyes? 19 years is a long time to go without a new prescription on my contacts. How an immunization to allergies or something along those lines, too?

I'm sure the Elves could help here unless anyone has some real good nanotech.

They do have laser surgery, you know.
Oh, and I want my TI-89 calculator along with me, as well as all my physics and math text books, with my notes, too.

Your TI-89 won't last forever and neither will the batteries, though.

[Enforcer Talen]

I'd also like to point out the amazingly obvious things that people have missed.

1) Diplomacy - We just turn up in the middle of nowhere with modern tech and its automatically assumed by the humans, elves etc that we are friendly? Uh-uh. We need lots of people going out and establishing ties. That leads us to problem no.2

2) Trade and Currency - We have no money worth anything to them. They can chop wood themselves, raise and butcher their own animals... Trade is limited to technology. And do we really want to trade technology?

3) "Where the hell are we?" - We would have no maps of Middle Earth, and even those that could be provided by locals are by no means accurate. We wouldn't have GPS, we wouldn't even have enough info to get inertial guidance working properly. If we were to team up with the rangers and use modern surveying equipment we could probably build a decent map in about 6-9 months, but it would still have a LOT of guesswork (anyone up for surveying Mordor - didn't think so).

4) Small[pox] problems - Been mentioned already, but we as modern humans have remarkably shite immune systems. Forget us spreading disease to Middle Earth. We'll likely be like the Martians unless we can sort out a decent immunisation/acclimatisation program. And what happens when someone gets injured Anyone here got medical training? Anyone at SB? I know that I can stabilise someone with pretty bad injuries (aneurysms, collapsed lungs etc etc), but without someone with decent medical training that person is as good as dead and we shouldn't even bother wasting our precious medical equipment on stabilising them.

5) Biology - Anyone here a biologist? Because it would be a great fucking insight for everyone if we could perform a few autopsies on orcs, goblins and uruk-hai to determine what they may be vulnerable to. Not to mention how fucking handy it would be to determine exactly whats edible and whats not for someone with a modern human physiology and immune system.

6) Language barrier - who here speaks the tongues of Middle Earth? Noone? Didn't think so.

7) Manufacturing and maintenance - Its all well and good to have modern weapons and equipment, but does anyone know how to maintain them? Who knows how to drill for oil and then refine it to petroleum and other derivatives? Who knows how to convert an engine from petroleum to another fuel source? Who knows how to fabricate ammunition from scratch? Who knows about mining and refinement of ores? Lets not forget that once we figure out who knows how to do all this we still have to get people to actually do it.

I'm sure there's more that I'll think of and post.

Im bringing stacks of maps, the notes of jrrt, and all his books. we're prepared for that.

[Admiral Valdemar]

With tripod mounted machine guns you normally have a stake on each side sop your don't sweep your fire over friendly positions. That also makes it hard to hit the loader.

A water-cooled machine gun is better though. We don't need absurd rates of fire, but we do want to conserve barrels during full auto. An MG-42 needs a change every 200 rounds.

That's why I proposed the Browning, that or we use a water cooled Vickers, they last for bloody ever! They once had one firing for a whole week non-stop without fail until one dud round blocked it.

Sounds like a warping of an event at the Somme. Over one week ten guns fired off one million rounds, while going through a hundred barrels and hundreds more gallons of water. The peak was one twelve-hour period in which one gun fired 10,000 rounds an hour.

You couldn't fire one for a week straight, you'd need to change barrels even with water-cooling. Maybe one hour, an M1917 fired for forty-five minutes non-stop during trials, expending over 20,000 rounds. But I doubt the barrel could ever be used again.

The Maxim 1910 is actually likely the best choice, the German Maxim 1908 and British Vickers are basically lightened copies, but that massive construction comes in handy since we'd pretty much only ever be moving them via hummer anyway. Plus it was first demonstrated in 1887, so the tech level to make parts shouldn't be beyond us. The M1917 is a good gun, but not as good as the above for ultra long-term reliability.

I don't know if any of them have even been modified to fire 7.62 NATO, but the change shouldn't be that hard if we could do it before we start.

Well I heard that off a military type who said it was in trials in Africa or some such. Of course we'd never need to fire that long because the barrel would eventually warp and ammo would be well gone, but it proves those things can fire without failure for a long period.

What about a 7.62mm minigun for strafing?

[Darth Wong]

I'm not exactly fond of using biological weapons upon the enemy; I'm paranoid about it's ability to spread beyond it's target. We certainly don't have the resources of USAMRIID or the CDC to work with here.

That's why I favour chemical weapons like mustard gas. You don't have to worry about them proliferating out of control in the wild. A heavier-than-air chemical agent would be ideal for Helm's Deep too, because it would kill any orcs outside but it wouldn't affect the people on the inside of the wall.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I'm not exactly fond of using biological weapons upon the enemy; I'm paranoid about it's ability to spread beyond it's target. We certainly don't have the resources of USAMRIID or the CDC to work with here.

...killjoy...

It's not like I was gonna make HIV or anything, c'mon, we can make at least something to poison their water supplies, Cholera per chance? Just a weeny bug, nothing major.

If not, you better believe I want my VX or orbital UV satellite system.

Just hauling a load of our shit over in hummers and dumping it in there water might take out alot of hostiles.

Phew, you've got that job then.

I also believe we have dual power calculators anyway, solar and battery.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I'm not exactly fond of using biological weapons upon the enemy; I'm paranoid about it's ability to spread beyond it's target. We certainly don't have the resources of USAMRIID or the CDC to work with here.

That's why I favour chemical weapons like mustard gas. You don't have to worry about them proliferating out of control in the wild. A heavier-than-air chemical agent would be ideal for Helm's Deep too, because it would kill any orcs outside but it wouldn't affect the people on the inside of the wall.

How about chlorine as well? Course, it depends on what we can work with.

[Enforcer Talen]

and to think we used to worry bout the morality of chemical/biological weapons.

how long would it take for a nuke? assuming we bring all plans. . .

hell, if anything is available in the backpack, bring one suitcase nuke and the plutonium for the next few.

[weemadando]

I'm not exactly fond of using biological weapons upon the enemy; I'm paranoid about it's ability to spread beyond it's target. We certainly don't have the resources of USAMRIID or the CDC to work with here.

Given a year and a decent lab I'm guessing that a few of us working from samples of local diseased cattle could make enough anthrax to dust a decent sized army from an ultralight.

[Darth Wong]

and to think we used to worry bout the morality of chemical/biological weapons.

how long would it take for a nuke? assuming we bring all plans. . .

hell, if anything is available in the backpack, bring one suitcase nuke and the plutonium for the next few.

We don't have any nukes, and developing the technology necessary to locate, mine, and refine uranium is far beyond the capabilities of our meagre group.

[Enforcer Talen]

I can dream. and, as I said, I could bringing the essentials in the back pack.

[Mr Bean]

We don't have any nukes, and developing the technology necessary to locate, mine, and refine uranium is far beyond the capabilities of our meagre group.

I'm pushing back an increably strong urge to say OH YEAH? Which either results in me showing up two weeks later with a W-80 Gravity bomb or nothing
In either case I'll be the fool, first for trying to do the impossible, Or doing the impossible and discovering that I should have built a plane along the way to drop it as no one wants to be the guy who has to push the button
From five feet away

[Sea Skimmer]

and to think we used to worry bout the morality of chemical/biological weapons.

how long would it take for a nuke? assuming we bring all plans. . .

hell, if anything is available in the backpack, bring one suitcase nuke and the plutonium for the next few.

We don't have any nukes, and developing the technology necessary to locate, mine, and refine uranium is far beyond the capabilities of our meagre group.

Not to mention delivery problumes. Though that could be overcome. But if we can drive close enough to the target, setting up cannon would prove more effiecent. Only a few targets would be worth a nuke, and much damage could be done to them with a few far simplar cannons or crude rockets.

[Enforcer Talen]

-shrugs- we've got 50 people who havent said anything. have them carry plane components.

course, with a suitcase nuke, you hide it in a bush, drive away, and barad dur falls.

[Sea Skimmer]

Well I heard that off a military type who said it was in trials in Africa or some such. Of course we'd never need to fire that long because the barrel would eventually warp and ammo would be well gone, but it proves those things can fire without failure for a long period.

What about a 7.62mm minigun for strafing?

That’s the worse idea ever. Minigun would just serve to waste huge amounts of ammo. From a ground mounting there is nothing save aircraft that requires the 1200-RPM of an MG-42, let alone 2000-6000 RPM from a minigun. They only get used on aircraft because you have so sort a time in which to fire.

But since we'd face no AAA or SAM's if we had a helo, hovering or moving slowly to effectivly fire a normal machine gun is easily done.

[Mr Bean]

course, with a suitcase nuke, you hide it in a bush, drive away, and barad dur falls.

Franly I'd be hard pressed to construct somthing as small as a W-80 let alone a Brief-Case Nuke which would require YEARS of work and specilized training that none of us have(Inculding access to the special made via giant Industrial sized Laser)

Face it even with a military base stocked with everything we can't achive the .05mm of accurasy that we need to make ANY working Nuke(Smaller you go the more accurate it has to be)

[Sea Skimmer]

and to think we used to worry bout the morality of chemical/biological weapons.

how long would it take for a nuke? assuming we bring all plans. . .

hell, if anything is available in the backpack, bring one suitcase nuke and the plutonium for the next few.

Suitcase nukes weigh 150 pounds, you can carry one if you want, its your spine. I'd rather bring a 81mm mortar myself if I went for a weapon. The ammo is not that complex, and it would be great for many tasks.

[Enforcer Talen]

bring one, not build one. I wouldnt want to try building a suitcase nuke - a normal one would be fine, and we could bring whatever weird things we need to build them. and 150 lbs, -shrugs- we've got jeeps. I'll put it down when we arrive.

[Darth Wong]

Besides, once you've irradiated Mordor, are you really going to want to go in there to drop off the ring in Mount Doom? I guess you could take care of two birds in one stone by simply brazing the ring to the bomb (magic or no magic, there's no fucking way the ring can survive the nuclear fireball). But it's a moot point since we don't have the nukes anyway.

[Sea Skimmer]

course, with a suitcase nuke, you hide it in a bush, drive away, and barad dur falls.

Franly I'd be hard pressed to construct somthing as small as a W-80 let alone a Brief-Case Nuke which would require YEARS of work and specilized training that none of us have(Inculding access to the special made via giant Industrial sized Laser)

Face it even with a military base stocked with everything we can't achive the .05mm of accurasy that we need to make ANY working Nuke(Smaller you go the more accurate it has to be)

The W-80 is used on the AGM-86, AGM-129 and BGM-109 cruise missiles. Current US gravity bombs are the 1.2-megaton B-83 and the 1-300 kiloton B-61. There are also 30 9-megaton B-53 bombs, but they're being dismantled for long-term storage with the arrival of the B-61-11 earth penetrating nuke for bunker busting.

[Enforcer Talen]

we could if you assumed everything was available for bringing. if it wasnt, it would just take more time.

and, sauron survives as long as the ring does. a pity you cant evict him - a barad dur with machine guns sounds quite nice.

[Sea Skimmer]

Besides, once you've irradiated Mordor, are you really going to want to go in there to drop off the ring in Mount Doom? I guess you could take care of two birds in one stone by simply brazing the ring to the bomb (magic or no magic, there's no fucking way the ring can survive the nuclear fireball). But it's a moot point since we don't have the nukes anyway.

Well our ground burst would be dirty as hell, unless we also bring along a Lance or something. It would depend on the wind though.

[Enforcer Talen]

mordor is a hellhole anyway. who would notice radiation?

[phongn]

It's not like I was gonna make HIV or anything, c'mon, we can make at least something to poison their water supplies, Cholera per chance? Just a weeny bug, nothing major.

And what if it spreads? You can't guard agains tthat.

If not, you better believe I want my VX or orbital UV satellite system.

I'm somewhat nervous about VX since we don't have NBC suits; something relatively simple like phosgene or mustard gas should work.

[phongn]

I also believe we have dual power calculators anyway, solar and battery.

Not as good as a TI-89, but better than nothing! Presumably we could modify the graphic calculators to run off external power if we had some basic electronic equipment (it's been done before). Hopefully the photovoltic cells don't degrade too quickly though (OTOH, I've seen truly ancient TI-35 Solar calculators that still work - my grandpa still has one of the old-school metal and plastic ones).