Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

Post by Master of Ossus »

Terralthra wrote:So, corporations should have a voice in political debates because if corporations didn't have a voice, corporations wouldn't have any voice. Interesting that you took so many words to put forward such a circular argument. I'd think the maxim "if you can't contribute meaningfully, at least be terse," would've applied.
The corporation has an interest in the political process that is distinct from that of its shareholders, and that should be legally recognized. Recognition of this interest in the political process requires some ability of the corporation to engage in speech. I don't know how it is that fucktards like you can fail to see the reasonability of allowing corporate input in measures that obviously affect corporate operations.

As another way to put it:
1. Do you think we should have a national discussion of network neutrality?
2. If so, would this discussion be meaningfully advanced by soliciting input from Google and Verizon?

I submit that the answer to both questions is obvious: network neutrality is a potentially important issue that Congress might want to look into. It's very difficult to have a discussion about it without allowing Google and Verizon a turn at the podium, and without their input the discussion of any proposed legislation (and, thus, the resultant legislation and the nation as a whole) would be diminished. Allowing corporate input in the political process hence strengthens the decision-making process and the nation, as a whole.

There is nothing circular at all about saying, "Corporations' interests in the political process should be recognized because doing so strengthens the legislative process, and its ability to evaluate proposed legislation."
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Master of Ossus wrote:The corporation has an interest in the political process that is distinct from that of its shareholders
Why? The corporation exists solely to profit its shareholders; therefore, its interests must align exactly with its shareholders'.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

Post by Master of Ossus »

Surlethe wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:The corporation has an interest in the political process that is distinct from that of its shareholders
Why? The corporation exists solely to profit its shareholders; therefore, its interests must align exactly with its shareholders'.
True, but the interests of an individual shareholder in any particular corporate activity are so diluted that shareholders (even collectively) are likely to under-value corporate activities like political participation: this is the free-ridership problem.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Corporations having a say in the political process I have no problem with, because laws can affect them just as much as a real person (at least when they're not taking advantage of some obscure loophole they coerced politicians into making). I do have a problem, though, with them being able to bribe politicians with large amounts of money and gifts into putting the corporation's interests ahead of the citizens', with disastrous results for everyone but the corporation. Since they are legally persons, they should be limited to the same $2,500 campaign contibution per year to which all real persons are limited.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Master of Ossus wrote:
Terralthra wrote:So, corporations should have a voice in political debates because if corporations didn't have a voice, corporations wouldn't have any voice. Interesting that you took so many words to put forward such a circular argument. I'd think the maxim "if you can't contribute meaningfully, at least be terse," would've applied.
The corporation has an interest in the political process that is distinct from that of its shareholders, and that should be legally recognized. Recognition of this interest in the political process requires some ability of the corporation to engage in speech. I don't know how it is that fucktards like you can fail to see the reasonability of allowing corporate input in measures that obviously affect corporate operations.

As another way to put it:
1. Do you think we should have a national discussion of network neutrality?
2. If so, would this discussion be meaningfully advanced by soliciting input from Google and Verizon?

I submit that the answer to both questions is obvious: network neutrality is a potentially important issue that Congress might want to look into. It's very difficult to have a discussion about it without allowing Google and Verizon a turn at the podium, and without their input the discussion of any proposed legislation (and, thus, the resultant legislation and the nation as a whole) would be diminished. Allowing corporate input in the political process hence strengthens the decision-making process and the nation, as a whole.

There is nothing circular at all about saying, "Corporations' interests in the political process should be recognized because doing so strengthens the legislative process, and its ability to evaluate proposed legislation."
You're on really fucking thin ice calling people fucktards when you post such blatant bullshit. You're actually conflating corporations expressing their opinion (as well as their technical expertise) on an issue with massive campaign donations that only really serve as bribes.

Corporations are free to express their political opinion with public statements issued in the corporation's name, but this does not mean that campaign contributions are equivalent to speech. It's the central point that you fail to address and which you even seem to try to obfuscate.

Legislation, especially legislation regarding technical issues, should be made based on expert input on its effects on the matter in question, not based on who can pay the most money to buy the most legislators. Massive contributions from an industry source actually creates an immediate conflict of interest situation when the legislators who received them then go on to make decisions that affect the donor, especially if that donor's contribution was instrumental in getting them elected.

Then again, in the US conflict of interest does not seem to be something that a lot of people really give a shit about.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

Post by Terralthra »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Terralthra wrote:So, corporations should have a voice in political debates because if corporations didn't have a voice, corporations wouldn't have any voice. Interesting that you took so many words to put forward such a circular argument. I'd think the maxim "if you can't contribute meaningfully, at least be terse," would've applied.
The corporation has an interest in the political process that is distinct from that of its shareholders, and that should be legally recognized.
Why? When did the interests of corporations somehow get on an equal standing with the welfare of a nation's citizens? You are continuing to state this as a fundamental assertion, that somehow corporations deserve government attention paid to their interests. Newsflash: governments should be concerned with the welfare of their citizens, and corporate interests matter only insofar as they serve the citizenry. If citizens are best served by entirely neutral networks (which they are), then Congress should mandate that, and if corporations can't offer that at a profit, too fucking bad for Verizon.

Moreover, when did "offering technical expertise" somehow become equivalent to offering roughly 5 million dollars in donations just for health care or over a million from telecom service companies just to one committee in the Senate?

Oh, what's the matter, did you forget that we were talking about corporate political donations, not this absolute bullshit red herring about giving "their input"?
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Master of Ossus wrote:
Surlethe wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:The corporation has an interest in the political process that is distinct from that of its shareholders
Why? The corporation exists solely to profit its shareholders; therefore, its interests must align exactly with its shareholders'.
True, but the interests of an individual shareholder in any particular corporate activity are so diluted that shareholders (even collectively) are likely to under-value corporate activities like political participation: this is the free-ridership problem.
Overvalue based on what criteria? In other words, why should they value it more?
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

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Master of Ossus wrote:Freedom of expression was conceived of as being extremely broad when it was written into the Constitution.
Please present your evidence that bribes would be considered a form of "expression" by the framers.
What the fuck is a "Wall of Separation?" Define precisely what this encompasses, and what it excludes. That is not an unambiguous term, as you suggest it to be.
:lol: This from the same person who thinks that briefcases of cash can be considered a form of protected "expression". It seems to me that you decide whether something should be defined narrowly or broadly depending entirely on whether it's convenient for your position.
The distinction between "speaking my mind" and "glorified political bribery" would probably have been quite well understood at the time.
This imposes your view of corporate speech into an historical debate, even though there's very little evidence of this. Jay and Madison and Hamilton, for instance, didn't see the Federalist papers as "glorified political bribery," even though they were using their influence to widely disseminate papers and pamphlets to advocate a particular view of the US Constitution.
And I suppose they would have felt the same way about buying and selling politicians?
How the fuck do you want to have a social debate about Net Neutrality without AT&T and Google getting a say in it?
Ummm, by having the citizens participate in it? It's not as if employees and supporters of either organization would be muzzled.
Right. And wives shouldn't be allowed to vote because their husbands can already be counted on to represent their interests at the ballot box.
This is the most spectacularly dishonest analogy I've seen in a long time. Wives and husbands are both real citizens. A corporation is not a living breathing person. The fact that we treat it as a pseudo-person for certain legal purposes does not mean we must idiotically pretend it is actually a real person, and should be treated as completely identical in every respect. Especially when corporations cannot be punished like a real person. Can you throw a corporation in prison?
Not only do individual employees and shareholders have a far smaller and more marginal interest in following the proceedings than their respective companies do, but without expending corporate dollars to think through and then disseminate that viewpoint there would be no assurances that employees would even have access to information that would help them understand the corporate (or their personal) interest in the issue. Without some level of corporate involvement in the political process, huge interests would be going under- or even unrepresented. That is a bad social outcome.
Plain English translation: "The employees and shareholders of the corporation don't know shit, so they wouldn't represent a solid special interest. The solution is to give the executive suite the power to act on behalf of all its employees, with or without their individual consent or even comprehension".
Free speech was conceived of as being extremely broad when it was written into the Constitution. Are you saying that the Framers of the Bill of Rights did not think that it would have extended to protect an incorporated printing press that was set to produce political materials during the times of John Jay and James Madison?
I would argue that unless they were insane, the framers of the Bill of Rights would not have extended that to "campaign contributions", no. I seriously cannot believe anyone would think that large amounts of money would constitute a protected form of "expression". As for printing presses, I would argue that this is a clear case of people mindlessly extending primitive ideas into the modern era without consideration for the changes in technology. Modern media marketing is not like printing presses in the 18th century. It is based not on literary argument, which requires at least a modicum of thought on the part of the reader, but on sheer brute-force Pavlovian sensory conditioning.
Incidentally, just as Duckie did throughout his involvement in the thread, you have once again conflated my opinion with that of Scalia with no justification whatsoever.
You're defending Scalia. That's justification enough.
I don't know what Jefferson's test was for determining on which side of the "Wall of Separation" certain behaviors would fall on. Evidently churches and religious institutions benefit from various laws that exist in the US, and evidently the US is constitutionally allowed to expend resources that tangentially benefit religious activities (for instance: would you consider it a constitutional violation for police and prosecutors to expend state resources recovering property stolen from a synagogue and then prosecuting the thieves?). I also recognize that some things clearly do violate this constitutional provision. But where is the "Wall of Separation" located between the two extremes? Wherever you vaguely point to when you say "That's where the wall is," there will invariably be cases that narrowly fall on one side of it or the other. You and Duckie want judges to pin down where the Wall lies in the absence of legislative intervention (essentially) by assigning their own values to cases at bar. Scalia is more comfortable insisting that, to the extent that the law should be changed from its original framing, Congress should be the group to do it.
And how is that consistent with "extending" freedom of expression to cover political campaign contributions?
Edit: I should also point out the contradiction which is inherent in your position: even as you require judges to use their values and ideas to adjudicate matters that come before them, you ridicule and demean a particular Justice who has done just that. The reason for this is that Justice Scalia values different things than you do, and responds to different dangers than the ones that you see. In short, both you and Duckie want judges who adopt all of your values and agree with you 100% of the time. I would submit that that standard is neither achievable nor desirable in a justice system--it is a selfish and short-sighted approach to the judicial system.
I ridicule and demean a particular justice who has done just that because he claims he is not doing that, and is instead just being "strict" with regard to original intents and meanings. Did you honestly need that explained to you, or are you just dense? If he were honest enough to admit he simply votes conservative, I wouldn't be making this argument. I would just be complaining that he's a conservative douchebag. But you can't expect honesty from the sort of person who claims that a cross is a universal symbol for all faiths.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

Post by Master of Ossus »

Darth Wong wrote:Please present your evidence that bribes would be considered a form of "expression" by the framers.
What, precisely, are we talking about, here? I assumed we were referring to "Hillary: The Movie" and the associated Supreme Court case. If so, that's hardly "bribery" in any meaningful sense. The film received less than 1% of its funding from a for-profit corporation, and doesn't strike me as "drowning out" individual speech. And I contend that this falls squarely within freedom of expression: the identity of an entity that was contributing to a political cause was not viewed as material by the framers when they drafted the First Amendment. Businesses, at that time, were already contributing substantial support to political issues, for instance by publishing materials on political subjects free of charge in support of their particular beliefs.

But more substantively, you cannot easily distinguish political from non-political conduct, and courts and even businesses are ill-equipped to address that question. When the FCC tried to enforce its infamous "equal time" requirement, and the later "Fairness Doctrine," they found that both were substantially unenforceable, chilled legitimate news and information conduct, and significantly reduced the amount of time stations devoted to politically sensitive issues.
:lol: This from the same person who thinks that briefcases of cash can be considered a form of protected "expression". It seems to me that you decide whether something should be defined narrowly or broadly depending entirely on whether it's convenient for your position.
What "briefcases of cash" are you talking about? I'm unfamiliar with the reference.
Ummm, by having the citizens participate in it? It's not as if employees and supporters of either organization would be muzzled.
Except that they have incentives against doing it on their own time: this is the free-ridership problem that I pointed out, earlier. You cannot expect individual employees to intervene on behalf of all shareholders unless they either have a fiduciary duty to do so (which they can't, here, because you're actually banning the corporation from participating in the discussion), or else they have to be paid to do it, which has the same problem, above.
Right. And wives shouldn't be allowed to vote because their husbands can already be counted on to represent their interests at the ballot box.
This is the most spectacularly dishonest analogy I've seen in a long time. Wives and husbands are both real citizens. A corporation is not a living breathing person. The fact that we treat it as a pseudo-person for certain legal purposes does not mean we must idiotically pretend it is actually a real person, and should be treated as completely identical in every respect. Especially when corporations cannot be punished like a real person. Can you throw a corporation in prison?
The point I was trying to get across with the analogy (and which you studiously avoid) is that you cannot expect someone to represent another's interests in their political conduct, even when superficial similarities between them may suggest that they have similar interests. In your model of the world, shareholders will be inadequately represented in the political process because of the free-ridership issue. You can argue that in the current world, or Scalia-land, the corporation is over-represented, but don't pretend as if the corporation in your world would be fully represented by individual citizens who kinda, sorta have similar incentives in comparison with the size of the interests that their shareholders and employees (etc. etc.) collectively have in the issues at hand.
Plain English translation: "The employees and shareholders of the corporation don't know shit, so they wouldn't represent a solid special interest. The solution is to give the executive suite the power to act on behalf of all its employees, with or without their individual consent or even comprehension".
That is not a remotely fair characterization of what I said, and you know it. A shareholder (or employee) who expends his own money and resources promoting the corporate interest will be systematically worse-off than shareholders and employees who choose not to do so. Your repeated use of dodges and evasions to escape this fundamental point avail you nothing.
I would argue that unless they were insane, the framers of the Bill of Rights would not have extended that to "campaign contributions", no.
Even if these campaign contributions went directly towards financing political speech? I disagree with you about the hypothetical. Many framers made material contributions to political causes in their lifetimes.
I seriously cannot believe anyone would think that large amounts of money would constitute a protected form of "expression". As for printing presses, I would argue that this is a clear case of people mindlessly extending primitive ideas into the modern era without consideration for the changes in technology. Modern media marketing is not like printing presses in the 18th century. It is based not on literary argument, which requires at least a modicum of thought on the part of the reader, but on sheer brute-force Pavlovian sensory conditioning.
I think you're characterizing printing presses and the political materials of the early United States far too charitably, but even if I grant you that, so what? Should we only allow political speech if it's based on literary argument? Should we bar forms of expression that do not make rational arguments, like burning flags or draft cards? What about "inflammatory" statements on t-shirts? Do those make "literary arguments?"
Incidentally, just as Duckie did throughout his involvement in the thread, you have once again conflated my opinion with that of Scalia with no justification whatsoever.
You're defending Scalia. That's justification enough.
So I cannot try to assist people in understanding another point of view without it being attributed to me? That's an incredible statement, especially for a self-described liberal. I will be sure to avoid any sort of critical analysis of perspectives not my own, from now on.
And how is that consistent with "extending" freedom of expression to cover political campaign contributions?
It's not: it's distinct because one activity was (at least according to Scalia) captured within the original framing of the First Amendment, while the other goes beyond it and therefore requires legislative intervention to change the original balance.
I ridicule and demean a particular justice who has done just that because he claims he is not doing that, and is instead just being "strict" with regard to original intents and meanings.
He would have no problem in saying that his values involve originalism and strict constructionism. Those are the values that Scalia buys into, and that he advances on the bench.
Did you honestly need that explained to you, or are you just dense? If he were honest enough to admit he simply votes conservative, I wouldn't be making this argument. I would just be complaining that he's a conservative douchebag. But you can't expect honesty from the sort of person who claims that a cross is a universal symbol for all faiths.
He doesn't "simply vote[] conservative," if by "conservative" you mean something that resembles the Republican Party position on political issues. I have pointed this out to you, repeatedly and you have consistently ignored it. His philosophy is more complicated than that, and more self-consistent.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

Post by Darth Wong »

Master of Ossus wrote:What, precisely, are we talking about, here? I assumed we were referring to "Hillary: The Movie" and the associated Supreme Court case.
Huh? I never mentioned this movie. In fact, I've never even heard of this movie until you mentioned it just now.
But more substantively, you cannot easily distinguish political from non-political conduct, and courts and even businesses are ill-equipped to address that question.
The Supreme Court did in fact approve McCain-Feingold, so they appear to believe you can.
When the FCC tried to enforce its infamous "equal time" requirement, and the later "Fairness Doctrine," they found that both were substantially unenforceable, chilled legitimate news and information conduct, and significantly reduced the amount of time stations devoted to politically sensitive issues.
I don't see what this has to do with Scalia's inconsistencies.
What "briefcases of cash" are you talking about? I'm unfamiliar with the reference.
I'm talking about Scalia's dissent to McCain-Feingold. In it, he justifies the "Money is Speech" position by referring exclusively to precedent, which is fine if you think precedent is really important. However, he also advocates overturning Roe v Wade: what happened to his reverence for precedent? Or what about his statements on the Establishment clause, which directly contradict the precedent of Emerson vs Board of Education based not on the letter of the law, but on "the American tradition?" In his words:
Scalia wrote:Whatever the Establishment Clause means, it certainly does not mean that government cannot accommodate religion, and indeed favor religion. My court has a series of opinions that say that the Constitution requires neutrality on the part of the government, not just between denominations, not just between Protestants, Jews and Catholics, but neutrality between religion and non-religion. I do not believe that. That is not the American tradition.
Dissenting in McCreary County vs ACLU, he wrote:
Scalia wrote:[T]oday's opinion suggests that the posting of the Ten Commandments violates the principle that the government cannot favor one religion over another. That is indeed a valid principle where public aid or assistance to religion is concerned, or where the free exercise of religion is at issue, but it necessarily applies in a more limited sense to public acknowledgement of the Creator. If religion in the public square had to be entirely nondenominational, there could be no religion in the public forum at all. One cannot say the word "God," or "the Almighty," one cannot offer public supplication or thanksgiving, without contradicting the beliefs of some people that there are many gods, or that God or the gods pay no attention to human affairs. With respect to public acknowledgment of religious belief, it is entirely clear from our Nation's historical practices that the Establishment Clause permits this disregard of polytheists and believers in unconcerned deities just as it permits the disregard of devout atheists...

[T]here is a distance between the acknowledgment of a single Creator and the establishment of a religion. The former is, as Marsh v. Chambers put it, "a tolerable acknowledgement of beliefs widely held among the people of this country." The three most popular religions in the United States, Christianity, Judaism and Islam-- which combined account for 97.7% of all believers -- are monotheistic. All of them, moreover (Islam included), believe that the Ten Commandments were given by God to Moses, and are divine prescriptions for a virtuous life. Publicly honoring the Ten Commandments is thus indistinguishable, insofar as discriminating against other religions is concerned, from publicly honoring God. Both practices are recognized across such a broad and diverse range of the population-- from Christians to Muslims-- that they cannot reasonably be understood as a government endorsement of a religious viewpoint.
When convenient, he uses cultural practice. When convenient, he appeals to the supremacy of precedent. When convenient, he refers to the letter of the law. I do not see anything here but a person who uses arguments of convenience as they suit him.
Except that they have incentives against doing it on their own time: this is the free-ridership problem that I pointed out, earlier. You cannot expect individual employees to intervene on behalf of all shareholders unless they either have a fiduciary duty to do so (which they can't, here, because you're actually banning the corporation from participating in the discussion), or else they have to be paid to do it, which has the same problem, above.
Who said I was expecting individual employees to intervene on behalf of shareholders? I expect shareholders to act on their own behalf, and employees to act on their own behalf. If the company's interests do not coincide with those of its shareholders and employees, that's too bad.
The point I was trying to get across with the analogy (and which you studiously avoid) is that you cannot expect someone to represent another's interests in their political conduct, even when superficial similarities between them may suggest that they have similar interests.
And the point I was trying to get across, and which you are apparently incapable of grasping, is that I don't give a rat's ass about the corporation's interests when and where they diverge from the interests of its shareholders and employees. A corporation is a collection of people. I care about people. If the corporation's interests diverge from the interests of the people in that company, then I don't see why that divergence should be protected.
In your model of the world, shareholders will be inadequately represented in the political process because of the free-ridership issue. You can argue that in the current world, or Scalia-land, the corporation is over-represented, but don't pretend as if the corporation in your world would be fully represented by individual citizens who kinda, sorta have similar incentives in comparison with the size of the interests that their shareholders and employees (etc. etc.) collectively have in the issues at hand.
Shareholders can vote. Shareholders can donate to political campaigns, within campaign financing limits. Shareholders can engage in other forms of speech. What they would not be able to do in my model of the world is to wield political influence entirely out of proportion to their demographics.
Plain English translation: "The employees and shareholders of the corporation don't know shit, so they wouldn't represent a solid special interest. The solution is to give the executive suite the power to act on behalf of all its employees, with or without their individual consent or even comprehension".
That is not a remotely fair characterization of what I said, and you know it. A shareholder (or employee) who expends his own money and resources promoting the corporate interest will be systematically worse-off than shareholders and employees who choose not to do so. Your repeated use of dodges and evasions to escape this fundamental point avail you nothing.
That is a completely fair characterization of your argument. You are arguing that the corporations' interests may diverge from those of its shareholders and employees, so it should be allowed to lobby for its own interests, independent of the interests of its shareholders and employees. As for the shareholders and employees who spend their own money by donating to political campaigns, it's pretty ironic that you accuse me of a "dodge" when your argument boils down to the company spending money on political influence that would otherwise become profit and be available for bonuses or dividends to those same employees and shareholders, and you have the gall to pretend that this is about saving the employees and shareholders from being forced to spend this money for their own interests.
Even if these campaign contributions went directly towards financing political speech? I disagree with you about the hypothetical. Many framers made material contributions to political causes in their lifetimes.
The framers never envisioned a world in which all elections were essentially a matter of money and media technology. Modern people don't even know what's real unless the media tells them. Moreover, Thomas Jefferson in particular loathed big-money corporations. The fact that powerful media corporations wield so much influence over politics is not "freedom of expression"; it is an oligopoly of expression.
I seriously cannot believe anyone would think that large amounts of money would constitute a protected form of "expression". As for printing presses, I would argue that this is a clear case of people mindlessly extending primitive ideas into the modern era without consideration for the changes in technology. Modern media marketing is not like printing presses in the 18th century. It is based not on literary argument, which requires at least a modicum of thought on the part of the reader, but on sheer brute-force Pavlovian sensory conditioning.
I think you're characterizing printing presses and the political materials of the early United States far too charitably, but even if I grant you that, so what? Should we only allow political speech if it's based on literary argument? Should we bar forms of expression that do not make rational arguments, like burning flags or draft cards? What about "inflammatory" statements on t-shirts? Do those make "literary arguments?"
None of them involve Pavlovian sensory conditioning. Pavlovian sensory conditioning bypasses the conscious mind. It is a highly advanced technique, honed by decades of television advertising research. We are lab rats in a largely successful experiment to create machines which order our thought patterns for us.
You're defending Scalia. That's justification enough.
So I cannot try to assist people in understanding another point of view without it being attributed to me? That's an incredible statement, especially for a self-described liberal. I will be sure to avoid any sort of critical analysis of perspectives not my own, from now on.
If you're saying that someone is being reasonable and consistent, then you are in fact defending those opinions, and for the purpose of this debate, you have to answer for them. It's utterly ridiculous to say that a man's opinions are reasonable and consistent and then dodge specific examples by pointing out that he is not you.
He would have no problem in saying that his values involve originalism and strict constructionism. Those are the values that Scalia buys into, and that he advances on the bench.
Yeah sure, except when he decides that he can just invoke "tradition" and ignore laws, precedent, and even definitions of terms. See the earlier quote.
He doesn't "simply vote conservative," if by "conservative" you mean something that resembles the Republican Party position on political issues. I have pointed this out to you, repeatedly and you have consistently ignored it. His philosophy is more complicated than that, and more self-consistent.
(sigh) The fact that he doesn't always vote precisely the way the Republicans want does not mean he does not have a personal conservative ideology which he conveniently finds justifications for in every case. It just means that the Republicans are even less consistent than he is.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

Post by Patrick Degan »

Master of Ossus wrote:When the FCC tried to enforce its infamous "equal time" requirement, and the later "Fairness Doctrine," they found that both were substantially unenforceable, chilled legitimate news and information conduct, and significantly reduced the amount of time stations devoted to politically sensitive issues.
Oh really:
Published on Saturday, February 12, 2005 by FAIR
The Fairness Doctrine
How We Lost it, and Why We Need it Back
by Steve Rendall

 
A license permits broadcasting, but the licensee has no constitutional right to be the one who holds the license or to monopolize a...frequency to the exclusion of his fellow citizens. There is nothing in the First Amendment which prevents the Government from requiring a licensee to share his frequency with others.... It is the right of the viewers and listeners, not the right of the broadcasters, which is paramount.
- U.S. Supreme Court, upholding the constitutionality of the Fairness Doctrine in Red Lion Broadcasting Co. v. FCC, 1969.

When the Sinclair Broadcast Group retreated from pre-election plans to force its 62 television stations to preempt prime-time programming in favor of airing the blatantly anti-John Kerry documentary Stolen Honor: Wounds that Never Heal, the reversal wasn't triggered by a concern for fairness: Sinclair back-pedaled because its stock was tanking. The staunchly conservative broadcaster's plan had provoked calls for sponsor boycotts, and Wall Street saw a company that was putting politics ahead of profits. Sinclair's stock declined by nearly 17 percent before the company announced it would air a somewhat more balanced news program in place of the documentary (Baltimore Sun, 10/24/04).

But if fairness mattered little to Sinclair, the news that a corporation that controlled more TV licenses than any other could put the publicly owned airwaves to partisan use sparked discussion of fairness across the board, from media democracy activists to television industry executives.

Variety (10/25/04) underlined industry concerns in a report suggesting that Sinclair's partisanship was making other broadcasters nervous by fueling "anti-consolidation forces" and efforts to bring back the FCC's defunct Fairness Doctrine.

Sinclair could even put the Fairness Doctrine back in play, a rule established in 1949 to require that the networks-all three of them-air all sides of issues. The doctrine was abandoned in the 1980s with the proliferation of cable, leaving citizens with little recourse over broadcasters that misuse the public airwaves, except to oppose the renewal of licenses.

The Sinclair controversy brought discussion of the Fairness Doctrine back to news columns (Baltimore Sun, 10/24/04; L.A. Times, 10/24/04) and opinion pages (Portland Press Herald, 10/24/04; Fort Worth Star-Telegram, 10/22/04) across the country. Legal Times (11/15/04) weighed in with an in-depth essay headlined: "A Question of Fair Air Play: Can Current Remedies for Media Bias Handle Threats Like Sinclair's Aborted Anti-Kerry Program?"

Sinclair's history of one-sided editorializing and right-wing water-carrying, which long preceded its Stolen Honor ploy (Extra!, 11/12/04), puts it in the company of political talk radio, where right-wing opinion is the rule, locally and nationally. Together, they are part of a growing trend that sees movement conservatives and Republican partisans using the publicly owned airwaves as a political megaphone -one that goes largely unanswered by any regular opposing perspective. It's an imbalance that begs for a remedy.

A short history of fairness
The necessity for the Fairness Doctrine, according to proponents, arises from the fact that there are many fewer broadcast licenses than people who would like to have them. Unlike publishing, where the tools of the trade are in more or less endless supply, broadcasting licenses are limited by the finite number of available frequencies. Thus, as trustees of a scarce public resource, licensees accept certain public interest obligations in exchange for the exclusive use of limited public airwaves. One such obligation was the Fairness Doctrine, which was meant to ensure that a variety of views, beyond those of the licensees and those they favored, were heard on the airwaves. (Since cable's infrastructure is privately owned and cable channels can, in theory, be endlessly multiplied, the FCC does not put public interest requirements on that medium.)

The Fairness Doctrine had two basic elements: It required broadcasters to devote some of their airtime to discussing controversial matters of public interest, and to air contrasting views regarding those matters. Stations were given wide latitude as to how to provide contrasting views: It could be done through news segments, public affairs shows or editorials.

Formally adopted as an FCC rule in 1949 and repealed in 1987 by Ronald Reagan's pro-broadcaster FCC, the doctrine can be traced back to the early days of broadcast regulation.

Early on, legislators wrestled over competing visions of the future of radio: Should it be commercial or non-commercial? There was even a proposal by the U.S. Navy to control the new technology. The debate included early arguments about how to address the public interest, as well as fears about the awesome power conferred on a handful of licensees.

"American thought and American politics will be largely at the mercy of those who operate these stations, for publicity is the most powerful weapon that can be wielded in a republic. And when such a weapon is placed in the hands of one person, or a single selfish group is permitted to either tacitly or otherwise acquire ownership or dominate these broadcasting stations throughout the country, then woe be to those who dare to differ with them. It will be impossible to compete with them in reaching the ears of the American people." 
- Rep. Luther Johnson (D.-Texas), in the debate that preceded the Radio Act of 1927 (KPFA, 1/16/03)

In the Radio Act of 1927, Congress mandated the FCC's forerunner, the Federal Radio Commission (FRC), to grant broadcasting licenses in such a manner as to ensure that licensees served the "public convenience, interest or necessity."

As former FCC commissioner Nicholas Johnson pointed out (California Lawyer, 8/88), it was in that spirit that the FRC, in 1928, first gave words to a policy formulation that would become known as the Fairness Doctrine, calling for broadcasters to show "due regard for the opinions of others." In 1949, the FCC adopted the doctrine as a formal rule (FCC, Report on Editorializing by Broadcast Licensees, 1949).

In 1959 Congress amended the Communications Act of 1934 to enshrine the Fairness Doctrine into law, rewriting Chapter 315(a) to read: "A broadcast licensee shall afford reasonable opportunity for discussion of conflicting views on matters of public importance."

"It is the purpose of the First Amendment to preserve an uninhibited marketplace of ideas in which truth will ultimately prevail, rather than to countenance monopolization of that market, whether it be by the government itself or a private licensee. It is the right of the public to receive suitable access to social, political, esthetic, moral and other ideas and experiences which is crucial here. That right may not constitutionally be abridged either by Congress or by the FCC." 
- U.S. Supreme Court, Red Lion Broadcasting Co. v. FCC, 1969.

A decade later the United States Supreme Court upheld the doctrine's constitutionality in Red Lion Broadcasting Co. v. FCC (1969), foreshadowing a decade in which the FCC would view the Fairness Doctrine as a guiding principle, calling it "the single most important requirement of operation in the public interest - the sine qua non for grant of a renewal of license" (FCC Fairness Report, 1974).

How it worked
There are many misconceptions about the Fairness Doctrine. For instance, it did not require that each program be internally balanced, nor did it mandate equal time for opposing points of view. And it didn't require that the balance of a station's program lineup be anything like 50/50.

Nor, as Rush Limbaugh has repeatedly claimed, was the Fairness Doctrine all that stood between conservative talkshow hosts and the dominance they would attain after the doctrine's repeal. In fact, not one Fairness Doctrine decision issued by the FCC had ever concerned itself with talkshows. Indeed, the talkshow format was born and flourished while the doctrine was in operation. Before the doctrine was repealed, right-wing hosts frequently dominated talkshow schedules, even in liberal cities, but none was ever muzzled (The Way Things Aren't, Rendall et al., 1995). The Fairness Doctrine simply prohibited stations from broadcasting from a single perspective, day after day, without presenting opposing views.

In answer to charges, put forward in the Red Lion case, that the doctrine violated broadcasters' First Amendment free speech rights because the government was exerting editorial control, Supreme Court Justice Byron White wrote: "There is no sanctuary in the First Amendment for unlimited private censorship operating in a medium not open to all." In a Washington Post column (1/31/94), the Media Access Project (MAP), a telecommunications law firm that supports the Fairness Doctrine, addressed the First Amendment issue: "The Supreme Court unanimously found [the Fairness Doctrine] advances First Amendment values. It safeguards the public's right to be informed on issues affecting our democracy, while also balancing broadcasters' rights to the broadest possible editorial discretion."

Indeed, when it was in place, citizen groups used the Fairness Doctrine as a tool to expand speech and debate. For instance, it prevented stations from allowing only one side to be heard on ballot measures. Over the years, it had been supported by grassroots groups across the political spectrum, including the ACLU, National Rifle Association and the right-wing Accuracy In Media.

Typically, when an individual or citizens group complained to a station about imbalance, the station would set aside time for an on-air response for the omitted perspective: "Reasonable opportunity for presentation of opposing points of view," was the relevant phrase. If a station disagreed with the complaint, feeling that an adequate range of views had already been presented, the decision would be appealed to the FCC for a judgment.

According to Andrew Jay Schwartzman, president of MAP, scheduling response time was based on time of day, frequency and duration of the original perspective. "If one view received a lot of coverage in primetime," Schwartzman told Extra!, "then at least some response time would have to be in primetime. Likewise if one side received many short spots or really long spots." But the remedy did not amount to equal time; the ratio of airtime between the original perspective and the response "could be as much as five to one," said Schwartzman.

As a guarantor of balance and inclusion, the Fairness Doctrine was no panacea. It was somewhat vague, and depended on the vigilance of listeners and viewers to notice imbalance. But its value, beyond the occasional remedies it provided, was in its codification of the principle that broadcasters had a responsibility to present a range of views on controversial issues.


The doctrine's demise
From the 1920s through the '70s, the history of the Fairness Doctrine paints a picture of public servants wrestling with how to maintain some public interest standards in the operation of publicly owned - but corporate-dominated - airwaves. Things were about to change.

The 1980s brought the Reagan Revolution, with its army of anti-regulatory extremists; not least among these was Reagan's new FCC chair, Mark S. Fowler. Formerly a broadcast industry lawyer, Fowler earned his reputation as "the James Watt of the FCC" by sneering at the notion that broadcasters had a unique role or bore special responsibilities to ensure democratic discourse (California Lawyer, 8/88). It was all nonsense, said Fowler (L.A. Times, 5/1/03): "The perception of broadcasters as community trustees should be replaced by a view of broadcasters as marketplace participants." To Fowler, television was "just another appliance - it's a toaster with pictures," and he seemed to endorse total deregulation (Washington Post, 2/6/83): "We've got to look beyond the conventional wisdom that we must somehow regulate this box."

Of course, Fowler and associates didn't favor total deregulation: Without licensing, the airwaves would descend into chaos as many broadcasters competed for the same frequencies, a situation that would mean ruin for the traditional corporate broadcasters they were so close to. But regulation for the public good rather than corporate convenience was deemed suspect.

Fowler vowed to see the Fairness Doctrine repealed, and though he would depart the commission a few months before the goal was realized, he worked assiduously at setting the stage for the doctrine's demise.

He and his like-minded commissioners, a majority of whom had been appointed by President Ronald Reagan, argued that the doctrine violated broadcasters' First Amendment free speech rights by giving government a measure of editorial control over stations. Moreover, rather than increase debate and discussion of controversial issues, they argued, the doctrine actually chilled debate, "because stations feared demands for response time and possible challenges to broadcast licenses" (though only one license was ever revoked in a dispute involving the Fairness Doctrine - California Lawyer, 8/88).

The FCC stopped enforcing the doctrine in the mid-'80s, well before it formally revoked it. As much as the commission majority wanted to repeal the doctrine outright, there was one hurdle that stood between them and their goal: Congress' 1959 amendment to the Communications Act had made the doctrine law.

Help would come in the form of a controversial 1986 legal decision by Judge Robert Bork and then-Judge Antonin Scalia, both Reagan appointees on the D.C. Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals. Their 2-1 opinion avoided the constitutional issue altogether, and simply declared that Congress had not actually made the doctrine into a law. Wrote Bork: "We do not believe that language adopted in 1959 made the Fairness Doctrine a binding statutory obligation," because, he said, the doctrine was imposed "under, not by, the Communications Act of 1934" (California Lawyer, 8/88). Bork held that the 1959 amendment established that the FCC could apply the doctrine, but was not obliged to do so - that keeping the rule or scuttling it was simply a matter of FCC discretion.

The decision contravened 25 years of FCC holdings that the doctrine had been put into law in 1959, according to MAP. But it signaled the end of the Fairness Doctrine, which was repealed in 1987 by the FCC under new chair Dennis R. Patrick, a lawyer and Reagan White House aide.

A year after the doctrine's repeal, writing in California Lawyer (8/88), former FCC commissioner Johnson summed up the fight to bring back the Fairness Doctrine as "a struggle for nothing less than possession of the First Amendment: Who gets to have and express opinions in America." Though a bill before Congress to reinstate the doctrine passed overwhelmingly later that year, it failed to override Reagan's veto. Another attempt to resurrect the doctrine in 1991 ran out of steam when President George H.W. Bush threatened another veto.

Where things stand
What has changed since the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine? Is there more coverage of controversial issues of public importance? "Since the demise of the Fairness Doctrine we have had much less coverage of issues," says MAP's Schwartzman, adding that television news and public affairs programming has decreased locally and nationally. According to a study conducted by MAP and the Benton Foundation, 25 percent of broadcast stations no longer offer any local news or public affairs programming at all (Federal Communications Law Journal, 5/03).

The most extreme change has been in the immense volume of unanswered conservative opinion heard on the airwaves, especially on talk radio. Nationally, virtually all of the leading political talkshow hosts are right-wingers: Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michael Savage, Oliver North, G. Gordon Liddy, Bill O'Reilly and Michael Reagan, to name just a few. The same goes for local talkshows. One product of the post-Fairness era is the conservative "Hot Talk" format, featuring one right-wing host after another and little else. Disney-owned KSFO in liberal San Francisco is one such station (Extra!, 3/4/95). Some towns have two.

When Edward Monks, a lawyer in Eugene, Oregon, studied the two commercial talk stations in his town (Eugene Register-Guard, 6/30/02), he found "80 hours per week, more than 4,000 hours per year, programmed for Republican and conservative talk shows, without a single second programmed for a Democratic or liberal perspective." Observing that Eugene (a generally progressive town) was "fairly representative," Monks concluded: "Political opinions expressed on talk radio are approaching the level of uniformity that would normally be achieved only in a totalitarian society. There is nothing fair, balanced or democratic about it."


Bringing back fairness?
For citizens who value media democracy and the public interest, broadcast regulation of our publicly owned airwaves has reached a low-water mark. In his new book, Crimes Against Nature, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. probes the failure of broadcasters to cover the environment, writing, "The FCC's pro-industry, anti-regulatory philosophy has effectively ended the right of access to broadcast television by any but the moneyed interests."

According to TV Week (11/30/04), a coalition of broadcast giants is currently pondering a legal assault on the Supreme Court's Red Lion decision. "Media General and a coalition of major TV network owners - NBC Universal, News Corp. and Viacom - made clear that they are seriously considering an attack on Red Lion as part of an industry challenge to an appellate court decision scrapping FCC media ownership deregulation earlier this year."

Considering the many looming problems facing media democracy advocates, Extra! asked MAP's Schwartzman why activists should still be concerned about the Fairness Doctrine.

What has not changed since 1987 is that over-the-air broadcasting remains the most powerful force affecting public opinion, especially on local issues; as public trustees, broadcasters ought to be insuring that they inform the public, not inflame them. That's why we need a Fairness Doctrine. It's not a universal solution. It's not a substitute for reform or for diversity of ownership. It's simply a mechanism to address the most extreme kinds of broadcast abuse.

Steve Rendall is FAIR's senior analyst and co-host of CounterSpin, FAIR's national radio show.
What was that again?
Master of Ossus wrote:When the FCC tried to enforce its infamous "equal time" requirement, and the later "Fairness Doctrine," they found that both were substantially unenforceable, chilled legitimate news and information conduct, and significantly reduced the amount of time stations devoted to politically sensitive issues.
History says otherwise. Especially WRT the alleged increased "legitimate news and information conduct" (a truly laughable assertion on it's face given the quite observable degeneration of news content and broadcast standards over the last 25 years) since the demise of the Fairness Doctrine. Parroting Reagan's pet FCC commissioner does not change the facts of the matter.
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Re: Scailia "Supreme Court over-turning segregation was mistake"

Post by Keevan_Colton »

Split off the Pavlovian conditioning tangent with Axis and Patrick into its own thread.
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