SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread

[Steve]

After reconsideration I got rid of the Pop bonus to HT, but I'm still keeping the ability to substitute home territory for colonial territory in the industrial prerequisites.

[K. A. Pital]

Substituting HT for CT for industry requirements makes perfect sense (after all, it doesn't really matter if you build and extract resources on your millions of square kilometers or on colonial soil), but pop bonus to HT made no sense (in fact pop bonuses make no sense at all in my view). Now my nation's back to normal.

I've also got questions to the Focus system (automatically larger army becomes better equipped as well - something that is not always correlating - for example I intend to equip my Soviet Army just a little better than IRL 1920s despite having an AF 5). I just hope people don't abuse the "larger army = better weapons" equation offered by the points system and try to be moderate instead.

[Steve]

I'm contemplating making army equipment quality a factor of Industry, Army, and Economy, much as Industry, Navy, and Economy reflect shipyard capacity. Aircraft capability would also be a mix of Ind, Econ, and Air Focus.

What does everyone think of this?

If we do this, we need to define at what markers one gets to have specific quality of artillery, small-arms, tanks, with the highest scores allowing perhaps tankettes and armored cars. I'm not sure of the level of mechanization for forces logical for this era, if we'd have half-tracks and trucks yet.

[Norseman]

To be perfectly honest I'm going to be a little munchy when it comes to my point layout, *but*, either way I'm not going to claim that my army is this huge heavily mechanized force. My vision of the Brazilian Army is one which relies heavily on People's War, a small but reasonably well trained cadre which acts to stiffen up the abilities of the very large reserves that I can mobilise.

I do however have one question, when it comes to say Naval Focus it says that I need Economy + Industry 8 to have Naval Focus 4, but let's say I only have Economy + Industry 7, obviously I couldn't *buy* Naval Focus 4 outright, but could I buy Naval Focus 2 and then have my +2 bonus from Industry raise it up to 4? If not I'll need to make some additional changes.

As for the rules... I think that we shouldn't go into nitpicky details no matter how tempting it is, look at Industry, look at Population, look at Economy, Infrastructure, Army Focus, etc, and then use some common sense.

[Steve]

I was indeed operating under the impression that you must meet Economy and Industry prerequisites for even the bonus to reach it.

[Steve]

Okay, here's my thought on Army and Air Force technological level.

Like Reserves and Navy shipyard capability (and naval tech, since those go together anyway), Army and Air Force equipment quality is determined by a score mix, namely the particular Focus with Industry and Economy.

At the bottom is a theoretical 0 level, from having a combination of less than 3 in all these categories. This is, frankly, Afghanistan, where they still built muzzle-loaders from the 1840s Afghan War IIRC. Though I suppose you'd have breech-loaders and Gatlings too. For the Air Force you have, I dunno, hot air balloons for spotting? Firmly 19th Century.

Next is, well, a combined total of 3. Breech-loading guns, Maxim machine guns, early breech-loading artillery. As for Air Force? Wright Flyers don't make for very good combat aircraft, but maybe some of the earliest airships. 1890-1900 stuff.

Then is combined total of 6. To get to this level not only must Ind, Econ, and Relevant Service Focus match 6 points, but none may be lower than 1. You can have a 1, a 2, and a 3, but not a 1, a 0, and a 5. Machine guns, better field and heavy artillery. Zeppelins and biplanes. 1910 equipment.

Note: I'm willing to refine things so that only Ind and Econ are minimal-requirement scores, or rather have higher requirements with Air Focus only having to be 1 or 2, to reflect keeping a small air force but with good tech.

Combined total of 9. As of 1925, you have potentially the very first tank types in service. Newer WWI generation guns and artillery. Aircraft wise at Level 3 you'd have WWI aircraft, heavier and lighter-than-air. IOW, 1914-1918 stuff. Every category must have at least a 2.

Combined total of 12. Post-war equipment. Tanks are getting lighter and faster, but you've yet to develop anything resembling the tanks that would open the era of mechanized war. Probably using the earliest motorized troop transports, but most of your army would still move by rail and legpower. Aircraft wise you're getting the 1920s-era bombers and aircraft. 1920-25 stuff. Every prerequisite category must have at least a 3.

Note that this can be tweaked, it's an initial recommendation to divorce technological sophistication from the size denoted by Air and Army focus.

Navy already has fixed prerequisites with Econ and Industry for Naval Focus itself and the two, with NF, determing yard capability and thus a measure of technological sophistication. I'm not willing to get more numbercrunchy.

Note: I'm considering reducing the minimal requirement on Focus only, so one can have a small but sophisticated force. Where 2 was originally required for all, it'd be 2 in either Econ or Ind and 1 for Air. Where 3 is required, then it'd be 3 for those two but only 2 for Air.

[K. A. Pital]

Makes sense to me, pretty simple and looks as it fits my nation (light late-war small tank crap is the only thing I'm getting pre-1925, despite having a huge Army) and some others.

Navy I agree has been hashed out pretty well, presumably cause people went to design their ships and Navies first. No need to get more sophisticated IMHO.

[Norseman]

I agree, it fits my nation too, if I reduce Air Focus to 2 I can maintain a Navy Focus of 4, which pleases me immensely. In fact this leaves me with an Army and Air Force that are both late WWI, but a Navy that is the technological equal to that of any other power. So I'm still forced to make trade-offs and sacrifices and that too is good.

[Steve]

Second item. Standing Military Limit. Who, honestly, has it higher than 3? Show of hands?

Yeah, thought so. In fact, I think only one player has it over 3, and Shroom had me draw up his points and I gave him that because of how he wanted to play California and those wacky von Reagans.

Well, I want to do two things....

A) Wanna use SML as a sink score? Fine. Not only is 40 or 60% of your active army manpower in reserve, but the same proportion of your Air Force is in bunkers and hangers, barely touched, part of reserve units or backup forces that aren't active due to lack of manpower and support. Even Navy might see some of your ships in ready reserve, not active service, because your military is understaffed. (Note that Navies are not nearly as manpower intensive - though frankly nor are Air Forces - but for the sake of making using SML as a sink a greater cost, I'm willing to do this... and suffer from it if I don't jigger with my own points I'll add.)

B) Who would want to spend extra points in SML? Not only do you spend that extra point from another category, you lose a point in Econ, so you're effectively spending two points. Spend a second extra point in SML? Now you're losing two Economy and one Industry, making your expenditure five points.

Thanas put it in to reflect reality, but I think reconsideration is in order. Instead of these negatives, the drawback would come in one and/or the other in two ways: Reserves and Industrial Point bonus from Economy.

Basically, if you have an SML of 4, you'd get, let's say, 120% of your Army and Air Force by Focus Score. However, the reserves you get from Economy + Infrastructure get reduced by half that extra percentage. IOW, if have max Inf and Econ and have 20% reserve capability, your Reserves would be a tenth ower, or 18% (a tenth of 20 is 2, 20-2=18). (If you don't regard this as a high enough cost, we could make it the same percentage - that way someone with an Army of 5 and a Population of 1 wouldn't gain 200,000 Regulars but lose 500,000 potential reserves, but would lose 1 million potential reserves). It maintains a tradeof - SML gives you a larger standing military, but your reserve pool is smaller.

Additionally, or in lieu of this, a higher SML reduces the bonus to peacetime Industrial Points you get from Economy (And can even turn it into a negative modifier) by 5 and 10% respectively. For instance, a 4 in Econ and a 4 in SML would cancel each other out, as would a 5 and 5. A 3 and 4 combination would result in -5% Peacetime Industry.

Final note: Stas, in consideration of your fine arguments about bonuses from CT, I'm prepared to limit how much the bonus can count to just 1. IOW, my current listed score of 1 + 2CT would no longer be the 3 needed for a 5 in Industry, it would count as a 2 for purpose of the prerequisite. I would have to add a point to Population and have a 2 + 2 to get the requisite 3. However, at this point I will allow + 1 to Economy from max CT to stand.

[K. A. Pital]

+1 Economy from maxed out CT makes sense. Reflects a world-spanning colonial empire, kinda like Britain. Other than that I have no issues left I believe (so far - I'm hashing out a ground force and airforce this week if work doesn't consume all my time). I might have more advice to add.

Your considerations about SML do make sense.

[Steve]

And yet more....

Shipyard use. You must have at least, oh, half your yard capacity (maybe more) actively constructing at any time. Not hard. Four 40,000T dreadnoughts would be 160,000T of yard capacity and thus meet this figure for even a 5/5/5 in NF, Econ, and Ind, giving max yard capacity of 300,000T ATM. For every quarter of excess yard capacity beyond the limit, the next new construction will cost a 10% or so increase in industrial points and time to reflect having to retool the yards and get the working force back together, etc.

However, if your own planned construction isn't meeting this limit, then you can offer to build ships for other players to meet it and keep your yards from going inactive. If you do so, then you provide the yard capacity but, to reflect payment, they pay the Industrial Point cost.

Note that some new data on theoretical US limits and known British shipyard work has me considering... retooling yard capacity figures. At least raising the max yard capacity, with a limit of only 10 dreadnoughts at max for construction at a time. Will consider it further and listen for suggestions.

[Norseman]

I for one am planning to export battleships to my fraternal socialist companions, thus I always have something to do with excess capacity.

[Steve]

A final point...

Around the 1920s Britain had a population of 40-50 million.... and an Industry rating that is arguably 5 and definitely a 4. Yet Thanas' initial figures set the limit to 3 for either a 4 or 5.

This has me considering reducing the prerequiste on population to 2 for Industry of 4 and likely 5. I, in fact, did so for Ind of 4, but Ind of 5 is where I want to hear opposing arguments first.

[Steve]

Also on reconsideration, I'm thinking of a logarithmic jump. As long as you have a 1 in Army or Air Focus, you could have a WWI-quality Army or Air Force at game start if your Industry and Economy equal 8 to go with that 1 (and meet the minimal score of 3....actually those conditions overlap, NM). OTOH, the final level of 12 requires a 3 minimum in FOcus.

So from level 0 to level 4, the Army/Air Focus requisite goes 0, 0, 1, 1, and 3. I'd be willing to require Levels 0 and 1 to require Army of 1, but frankly even without a standing army a high enough Industry and Economy would make one capable of building 1890s-era equipment.

[K. A. Pital]

Some pretty simple tables that I composed:
RKKF-1925
RKKA-1925

Both are in the process of composition, but RKKF is already finished (RKKA is a bother though). It's a more or less good table system to fill in all your Navy combatants from the most modern carriers and dreadnaughts down to the ships turned into Shore batteries. Other users can run such a table on their fleets to see how well they fare under the rules.

So far I fit okay for NF 3. The "Former Name" column is only actual for me I would believe, since a lot of renaming happened in my fleet thanks to Revolution. Those who suffered no change of government may strike this column out alltogether. It's kinda useful for carrier and seaplane tender converts though, such ships usually were steamers or cruisers etc. in their former life and it's best to understand what they were like if someone's using real ship classes.

[Bluewolf]

One question I'd like to ask is that will the level of training in an army be represented in the Army Focus stats? You can have a modern army with poor training to use it effectivley and have a rather more basic army which is well trained. Will this simply be another common sense that we will RP out if not then? I understand that people don't want to make this anymore gamey but I just wondered.

Also will we have any point system framework on which to make an army on or will that also be something we do?

[Steve]

One question I'd like to ask is that will the level of training in an army be represented in the Army Focus stats? You can have a modern army with poor training to use it effectivley and have a rather more basic army which is well trained. Will this simply be another common sense that we will RP out if not then? I understand that people don't want to make this anymore gamey but I just wondered.

RP I think, perhaps also a function of Standing Military, but I'm mostly going to permit RPing unless someone forces my hand.

Also will we have any point system framework on which to make an army on or will that also be something we do?

Umm... rephrase the question? Make an army on what? Are you talking about structure of the Army?

[Bluewolf]

Umm... rephrase the question? Make an army on what? Are you talking about structure of the Army?

In SDNW2 you spent points in various areas to get tanks, arty, copters etc. Will that exist in some form in this one or do we just make an army without any points system at all?

[Steve]

I would say it depends on the sophistication of your army. Might draw up particulars later, since Army Focus provides exact Army sizes and thus a set "percentage" amount makes logical sense for this, but I figure that the higher your Army sophistication, then the more artillery units and tank battalions you would have.

[Steve]

Well, I just had someone indicate the kind of crazy trouble a 1 NF country could do if it devoted itself to torpedo boats at 300,000 tons max fleet. Especially in confined waters.

So I'm altering the tonnages. Instead of a linear 300,000 ton increase every focus point, you start at 150,000, then 2 is 300,000, then 3 is 900,000 and it goes linear 300,000 increases the rest of the way.

Note I may also check stated fleets to see if someone's overstating forces in things like torpedo boats. People violating my trust get smacked by Modnir.

[Steve]

As for navies, Norade I think it was came to me with a big question.

Navy auxiliaries. Not the pretty ships all officers seek to serve on, but the colliers/oilers, the tugs, the troop transports, the minesweepers or minelayers, national service freighters and merchantmen, Q-Ships, etc. My intention was to count them seperate from the combat fleet tonnage, amounting to a third or a half of a combat fleet's tonnage. I also was thinking we'd let countries put their training vessels (most likely the last predreads or the first dreadnoughts in 1925) down as such as well, this status reflecting they're only gunnery training ships and such and are not returnable to the navy's main fleet, but if this is opposed I'll reverse it.

Building such auxiliaries would take up yardspace and thus permit someone to not devote years of industrial production and space to warships they don't need. Nor would I necessarily force players to list them meticulously, you can just say how many ships of these types you have and we'll use historic counterparts to figure capability.

[Norade]

Perfect, that makes my life easier, but I might design them anyway just for fun. XD

[Norseman]

Question: By Combat Fleet do we mean everything with guns that shoot? Because I'm not entirely sure if I want to keep track of everything other than battleships, battlecruisers, and carriers. For that matter keeping track of the scores of support ships even a medium sized navy would have is... cumbersome. I was more thinking of designing my big guns and then simply listing my heavy cruisers, light cruisers, destroyers, torpedo boats, and submarines with maybe a small note as to the design philosophy behind them.

[Steve]

I'd prefer you at least crib historic designs for destroyers, subs, and cruisers. As for your support ships, as the Brazilian Navy is supposedly short-legged you wouldn't need quite so many. Britain, Cascadia, Germany, Manchuria, we're the ones who need them.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I'd prefer you at least crib historic designs for destroyers, subs, and cruisers. As for your support ships, as the Brazilian Navy is supposedly short-legged you wouldn't need quite so many. Britain, Cascadia, Germany, Manchuria, we're the ones who need them.

Ah... I still need to make the occasional trip to Java...