What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by NecronLord »

Zac Naloen wrote:You still aren't seeing my point.


There is a significant technological difference between inducing an reaction and controlling and harnessing that reaction.

The Federation can blow up a star, so that ability on the grand scale of Sci-fi is obviously not that big of a deal.


I remember the quote from the relevant book, at least two of those stars were induced SuperNova's.

So what about the rest?
No. Two of those in one battle, named the Twin Novae Battle. There's no reason whatsoever to think the other stellar casualties weren't affected in the same way.

The Consider Phlebas epilogue does not say they 'controlled' or 'harnessed' it in any way. Just that they blasted stuff off some stars.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Nephtys »

Starglider wrote:
Balrog wrote:
Starglider wrote:Wrong. The Geth Armatures in ME use a plasma bolt weapon, and aside from travelling absurdly slowly it has relatively little effect on the shields of an APC.
Um, bullshit: Their main cannon mounted on the articulated 'head' turret, appears to be a highly efficient conventional mass accelerator.
Direct visual evidence beats fluff text. If you'd actually played the game, you'd know that armatures and collossi fire a bright glowing blob that moves at approximately 10 metres per second and takes down the shields of an APC by about 10%, for a direct hit. There is no way a mass accelerator slug could move at a mere 10m/sec and pose any sort of threat, or for that matter glow brightly and exhibit no gravity arcing. It is either an extremely inefficient and unnecessarily glowing unguided rocket (in fact it moves at about the same speed as the infantry-fired rockets), or an energy weapon.
And quite frankly, direct visual evidence hoses Mass Effect.

The Battle of Citadel was conducted at visual range, with slow-moving fireballs being shot out of the mass accelerator barrels, rather small explosions by ships banking like beached whales. Hell, there's even FLAK flying around.

All the Codex material goes out the window at such.

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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Balrog »

Starglider wrote:
Balrog wrote:
Starglider wrote:Wrong. The Geth Armatures in ME use a plasma bolt weapon, and aside from travelling absurdly slowly it has relatively little effect on the shields of an APC.
Um, bullshit: Their main cannon mounted on the articulated 'head' turret, appears to be a highly efficient conventional mass accelerator.
Direct visual evidence beats fluff text. If you'd actually played the game, you'd know that armatures and collossi fire a bright glowing blob that moves at approximately 10 metres per second and takes down the shields of an APC by about 10%, for a direct hit. There is no way a mass accelerator slug could move at a mere 10m/sec and pose any sort of threat, or for that matter glow brightly and exhibit no gravity arcing. It is either an extremely inefficient and unnecessarily glowing unguided rocket (in fact it moves at about the same speed as the infantry-fired rockets), or an energy weapon.
You're seriously going off of in-game art for your argument? Where in cinematics we see that ME ships don't fire solid projectiles at hundreds of km/s out of their main gun, but slow-ass fiery missile things that take forever to cross a few km of distance? Where Garrus shoots a hostage-taker in the head with his pistol, and all we see is a spurt of blood with no entry or exit wound?

I was being generous by going purely off of the Codex, but if you want to throw in the ingame stuff as well then ME just got even shittier.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by NecronLord »

Which is higher canon, this 'Mass Effect Codex' or the game's cinematics/play? Visuals do not necesserily trump dialogue or text in all series.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by dragon »

Starglider wrote:
Erm, what? He asked about Trek shields and you quoted a Wars analysis?
Yeah don't know what I was thinking, granted since the thread is about a fair match for the Empire ST shields don't matter in the least bit.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Nephtys »

NecronLord wrote:Which is higher canon, this 'Mass Effect Codex' or the game's cinematics/play? Visuals do not necesserily trump dialogue or text in all series.
Basically, pick one.

Either Mass Barriers will block particle beams and similar type weapons (Visuals are correct) or they won't (Codex is correct).

Incidentally, this presents other problems. According to the Codex, the Geth Armature has a mass accelerator cannon that is capable of substantial damage as an anti-armor weapon. However, there is a problem: In visuals and gameplay, the attack moves at about 20 miles per hour and can be easily avoided, even by a stationary car less than 100 yards off accelerating a little out of the path from rest. It doesn't arc either. That makes no sense for some sort of ballistic accelerated weapon, like what the Codex calls it. Likewise, other inconsistencies occur. In the Codex, Systems Alliance military doctrine is centered around the use of carriers, which aren't regulated by treaty. No fighters however, or at least, very, very few are seen at the battle of Citadel, where their whole main fleet was deployed. Kinetic Barriers also apparently can stop high-powered firearms and explosive blasts, but can't stop a left hook or riflebutt delivered by the protagonist.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by XaLEv »

Necronlord, what exact meaning are you ascribing to my post?
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Starglider »

Nephtys wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Which is higher canon, this 'Mass Effect Codex' or the game's cinematics/play? Visuals do not necesserily trump dialogue or text in all series.
Basically, pick one.
The error in characterising the armature main gun is easily explained; the geth were very rarely seen prior to the incursion at the start of the game. Intel was very spotty. It's quite possible that mass accelerator armed armatures do exist, but as a different type that wasn't see in the game. We know exactly what an anti-armor mass accelerator looks like, because the Mako carries one - it's an extremely high velocity canon (instantaneous in game terms) that does heavy damage, taking out an armature's shields in one shot and the armature itself with a second shot. The armature's main gun is patently not the same class of weapon. The 'anti-infantry' capability does appear to be a mass accelerator though, exactly like the Mako's coaxial anti-infantry machine gun.

The lack of visible fighters at the Citadel battle presents no such problem. It was an exceptional situation, a surprise attack at point blank range. The majority of the battle consists of Turians fighting Sovereign, and the Turians don't use fighters. The humans only turn up at the end, and we only actually see human frigates fighting. Most likely the carriers didn't arrive in time or didn't deploy their fighters because Sovereign's point defence was too effective to give them any chance of helping.
Either Mass Barriers will block particle beams and similar type weapons (Visuals are correct) or they won't (Codex is correct).
It does not make sense to be able to block relativistic projectiles but not relativistic particles. They both rely on kinetic energy and should interact with 'kinetic barriers' in exactly the same way. Incidentally there is a special round (the 'Carnage' mode) for the shotgun which the fluff text claims is a 'particle beam' but is actually a slow-moving glowing red blob similar to a Geth armature blast (this is usable by both the player and some enemies). This is stopped by the infantry-portable kinetic barriers and mitigated by personal shields. It acts exactly like the plasma bolts in B5, but if you want to go with the fluff and call it a 'particle beam' then it's proof that shields work against particle beams.
Kinetic Barriers also apparently can stop high-powered firearms and explosive blasts, but can't stop a left hook or riflebutt delivered by the protagonist.
I don't think they'd help against momentum, which is a very different thing to kinetic energy. This is the same reason why a bullet proof vest will protect you against being shot but won't help much against being whacked with a club.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Darth Hoth »

Simon_Jester wrote:The warship count is accurate, but the individual ships project far less power than their Star Wars counterparts. The Lensmen are not full Jedi-equivalents; only a handful of them actually have the kind of mental power to be comparable. At their best they're 'mere' special forces; the Lens is used for communication, not to grant them psychic weapons or tactical precognition.
Human Lensmen do not generally have well-developed mental powers (although mind-reading can be used "offensively", i.e. against "hostile targets", and not merely for peaceful communication). However, while humans (or very humanoid aliens) are the single greatest species in the Galactic Union, it also has billions of planets populated by aliens, which also produce Lensmen. Many, if not most, of these species do appear to have natural telepathy, which manifests as standard esper abilities (see: Rigellians, Lyranians, Velantians and basically every type of Z-life described in the books).
Likewise, with respect to the spacesuits... I've noted a conspicuous lack of invulnerability. The toughest suits are resistant to high caliber bullets and hand-held energy weapons, but that just means you need to get a bigger energy weapon. As for their ability to go inertialess... I don't think their propulsion systems are up to the task of long distance interstellar flight. Do you have a counterexample?
Kinnison' standard space armour is capable of FTL in Galactic Patrol and used for interplanetary travel. NecronLord probably refers to inertialessness also when he says "invulnerability".
Ship FTL is debatable. Hyperdrive is still faster as best as I can determine, but going free lets you maneuver at FTL speeds in normal space, and do so casually. If they had decent computer support they could do what Star Trek can't: effective warp strafing.
Lensman does have computer-equivalent technology; else, how could they build whole robot-controlled fleets in Second Stage Lensmen with no noticeable loss in performance? And in Children of the Lens a specific computer is mentioned (as I recall, at least) as being within the order of magnitude range of Mentor of Arisia in sheer processing power. That they are portrayed inconsistently is due to the time of writing, when modern computer applications were not as readily apparent as today; chalk it up to the same mistake Asimov made with his Robots universe (positronic brains but no computers). Anything else is a brainbug perpetuated by the GURPS sourcebook.
True, but that doesn't make them transcendantly dangerous. They'd be a major problem for the Star Wars side, just as they are for Boskone, but they wouldn't be able to decide the war simply by existing. The Second Stage Lensmen are more of a threat in that department; I would regard them as the functional equals or superiors of Jedi Masters- with different skill sets, of course. But there are only about four to five of them.
See above. And they would be very high-end Jedi Masters if so; I would, based on their demonstrated telepathic powers, tentatively rank them somewhere in the range between Joruus C'baoth and Palpatine, although the overlap of powers is not complete.
As of the time of Galactic Patrol, with no primary beams, no hyperspatial tube, no cosmic energy screens, no advanced superconductors and insulators from Medon, no ability to cut tractor beams, and so on, Civilization is almost certainly less powerful than the Star Wars Empire at its peak. Some time during the course of the series, that changes and they would be on roughly equal terms. I think that happens somewhere in the middle of the four main Lensman books.
For a slight nitpick, the tactic of cutting tractor beams was invented well before that (already in the Nevian War, if I recall correctly).

Galactic Patrol Civilization is probably also larger than the Empire by an order of magnitude or so, and they still have some tactical advantages in longer weapons ranges and better tactical mobility. Inertialessness might be useful to avoid damage as well. Since they use ultra-waves for communication, they should also be resistant to Wars jamming and EW, and decryption by Lens provides valuable SigInt. However, at that point the difference in power generation should be even more telling (although guided munitions, e.g. duodec torpedoes, might even the field, especially since torpedoes can also be inertialess and hence FTL), and substantially slower FTL will mean loss of strategic initiative. So I would say it is more even than posited; the Galactic Union should be able to make itself a Hell of a nuisance to conquer, though in a total war it would likely lose eventually. Closest to evenly matched they would be in Gray Lensman, with perhaps an edge for Lensman. Second Stage Lensmen era Civilization, on the other hand, is far superior to the Empire due to tubes and prolific use of weapons of planetary destruction.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Connor MacLeod »

With regards to Culture ships and potential firepower:
Consider Phelbas wrote: The two 'Killer' class Rapid Offensive Units Trade Surplus and Revisionist raced through the
hyperspace, flashing underneath the web of real space like slim and glittering fish in a deep, still
pond. They wove past systems and stars, keeping deep beneath the empty spaces where they
were least likely to be traced.
Their engines were each a focus of energy almost beyond imagining, packing sufficient power
within their two hundred metres to equal perhaps one per cent of the energy produced by a small
sun
, flinging the two vessels across the four-dimensional void at an equivalent speed in real
space of rather less than ten light-years per hour. At the time, this was considered particularly
fast.
That should easily put them within a magnitude of SW firepower depending on how you define "sun" - equal to a similiarly-sized SW ship (at least) if not being far better (and more likely to "far better") and these were outdated ROUs as well as I recall.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

Nephtys wrote:And quite frankly, direct visual evidence hoses Mass Effect.

The Battle of Citadel was conducted at visual range, with slow-moving fireballs being shot out of the mass accelerator barrels, rather small explosions by ships banking like beached whales. Hell, there's even FLAK flying around.

All the Codex material goes out the window at such.

[youtube video]
While it still looks different than Codex descriptions, are we sure the "fireballs" are supposed to be the mass driver projectiles? At around 3:58, the ship in the foreground fires three quick shots out of the lower barrel that are only visible for a frame or two, then a fireball out of the upper barrel. The codex, I believe, mentions the mass drivers firing three-round bursts; might the fireballs be a different weapon entirely?
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Starglider »

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:The codex, I believe, mentions the mass drivers firing three-round bursts; might the fireballs be a different weapon entirely?
The 'fireballs' are probably disruptor torpedoes. Those are actually described as being horribly slow moving in the fluff, due to the way they use artificial mass increase to breach shields. The humans prefer to launch them from fighters, but since the Turians don't use fighters it's likely that their capships have launchers for them. In the final shots Sovereign is literally covered in explosions from impacting weapons, and there are no 'fireballs' visible, consistent with large-scale bombardment by ultra-high-velocity slugs.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Ford Prefect »

NecronLord wrote:Which is higher canon, this 'Mass Effect Codex' or the game's cinematics/play? Visuals do not necesserily trump dialogue or text in all series.
Chris L'Etoile, one of the writers who work on Mass Effect essentially states that according to the designers, the visuals in the final battle are bunk. A quote from him:
Obviously, people can build missiles in the IP. They're well within the tech base. However, canonically, no one builds them for use in space combat.

The final cutscenes of ME1 were far along in development before the designers noticed they relied on missiles. The designers told the animators, "There are no missiles in the IP. Defensive lasers never miss." The animators told the designers, "We have too much work to do to go back and change these."

So, despite what you see in the cutscenes, missiles are not used in Mass Effect space combat.
The way he talks about it, it seems clear that they consider the Codex to be a more correct vision of the universe.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Darth Hoth wrote:Human Lensmen do not generally have well-developed mental powers (although mind-reading can be used "offensively", i.e. against "hostile targets", and not merely for peaceful communication). However, while humans (or very humanoid aliens) are the single greatest species in the Galactic Union, it also has billions of planets populated by aliens, which also produce Lensmen. Many, if not most, of these species do appear to have natural telepathy, which manifests as standard esper abilities (see: Rigellians, Lyranians, Velantians and basically every type of Z-life described in the books).
I get the feeling that the natural telepaths are something of an exception- contrast to races like the Nevians or Pellegrinans, or the numerous near-human species (like, say, the natives of Klovia). Even races like the Eich (who are a Z-type) don't seem to have much in the way of mental power beyond the parlor trick level. It's good for communications, but that's about all it's good for. And while that's not an advantage to be despised, it doesn't compare to precognition.
Ship FTL is debatable. Hyperdrive is still faster as best as I can determine, but going free lets you maneuver at FTL speeds in normal space, and do so casually. If they had decent computer support they could do what Star Trek can't: effective warp strafing.
Lensman does have computer-equivalent technology; else, how could they build whole robot-controlled fleets in Second Stage Lensmen with no noticeable loss in performance? And in Children of the Lens a specific computer is mentioned (as I recall, at least) as being within the order of magnitude range of Mentor of Arisia in sheer processing power. That they are portrayed inconsistently is due to the time of writing, when modern computer applications were not as readily apparent as today; chalk it up to the same mistake Asimov made with his Robots universe (positronic brains but no computers). Anything else is a brainbug perpetuated by the GURPS sourcebook.
When the Grand Fleet's AWACS-equivalent Directrix is being run by a bank of "computers," where "computers" are defined as Rigelians with slide rules... something is very wrong with the setting's computer technology. My best guess is that the robot ships are being remotely controlled by human (or superhuman) operators; the best analogy I can think of is the USS Utah, which was capable of maneuvering under remote control using 1930-level electronics.
________
See above. And they would be very high-end Jedi Masters if so; I would, based on their demonstrated telepathic powers, tentatively rank them somewhere in the range between Joruus C'baoth and Palpatine, although the overlap of powers is not complete.
The L2s? Yeah, they're powerful as hell by Jedi standards... but there are also only four of them.
As of the time of Galactic Patrol, with no primary beams, no hyperspatial tube, no cosmic energy screens, no advanced superconductors and insulators from Medon, no ability to cut tractor beams, and so on, Civilization is almost certainly less powerful than the Star Wars Empire at its peak. Some time during the course of the series, that changes and they would be on roughly equal terms. I think that happens somewhere in the middle of the four main Lensman books.
For a slight nitpick, the tactic of cutting tractor beams was invented well before that (already in the Nevian War, if I recall correctly).
I could have sworn tractor shears didn't come out until later than that.
Galactic Patrol Civilization is probably also larger than the Empire by an order of magnitude or so, and they still have some tactical advantages in longer weapons ranges and better tactical mobility. Inertialessness might be useful to avoid damage as well. Since they use ultra-waves for communication, they should also be resistant to Wars jamming and EW, and decryption by Lens provides valuable SigInt. However, at that point the difference in power generation should be even more telling (although guided munitions, e.g. duodec torpedoes, might even the field, especially since torpedoes can also be inertialess and hence FTL), and substantially slower FTL will mean loss of strategic initiative. So I would say it is more even than posited; the Galactic Union should be able to make itself a Hell of a nuisance to conquer, though in a total war it would likely lose eventually. Closest to evenly matched they would be in Gray Lensman, with perhaps an edge for Lensman. Second Stage Lensmen era Civilization, on the other hand, is far superior to the Empire due to tubes and prolific use of weapons of planetary destruction.
That's about where I was going with this. A Galactic Empire that had undisputed control of its own galaxy might be a match for Second Stage Lensman era Civilization, but only given plenty of time to build up a military (as in, a small fleet of Death Stars, that sort of thing).

Note that a Death Star is also the natural counter to planetary-destruction weapons that use mobile planetary masses... the Lensmanverse has no shielding capable of handling weapon outputs that exceed that of a main sequence star.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by NecronLord »

XaLEv wrote:Necronlord, what exact meaning are you ascribing to my post?
That the CP gridfire use demonstrates anything like planet-killing firepower (it doesn't).
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by NecronLord »

Darth Hoth wrote:Kinnison' standard space armour is capable of FTL in Galactic Patrol and used for interplanetary travel. NecronLord probably refers to inertialessness also when he says "invulnerability".
I do indeed.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Zac Naloen »

NecronLord wrote:
Zac Naloen wrote:You still aren't seeing my point.


There is a significant technological difference between inducing an reaction and controlling and harnessing that reaction.

The Federation can blow up a star, so that ability on the grand scale of Sci-fi is obviously not that big of a deal.


I remember the quote from the relevant book, at least two of those stars were induced SuperNova's.

So what about the rest?
No. Two of those in one battle, named the Twin Novae Battle. There's no reason whatsoever to think the other stellar casualties weren't affected in the same way.

The Consider Phlebas epilogue does not say they 'controlled' or 'harnessed' it in any way. Just that they blasted stuff off some stars.
Right, I was just trying to determine if the culture were capable of something other than "blow up star", as blowing up a star isn't that big a deal in Sci-Fi.


I was also thinking of the quotes that refer to the culture being able to tap energy directly from the "Stellar Core" and whether that would have any affect on a stars main sequence if you were able to take enough of it.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Ford Prefect »

Nephtys wrote:Kinetic Barriers also apparently can stop high-powered firearms and explosive blasts, but can't stop a left hook or riflebutt delivered by the protagonist.
Uh, this is actually pretty clearly explained; hardsuit shield units are reflex based, in that the computer only turns them on when it detects objects moving at certain velocities. Anything below this threshhold, like a punch, doesn't activate the shield.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Darth Hoth »

Simon_Jester wrote:I get the feeling that the natural telepaths are something of an exception- contrast to races like the Nevians or Pellegrinans, or the numerous near-human species (like, say, the natives of Klovia).
Who are the Pellerginans? I cannot recall any such name. Are you referring to the Petrinos from First Lensman?

I specifically noted that most human and near-human species appear not to be telepathic (although there are exceptions, such as Lyranians, and humanoids such as Posenians are telepaths as well). However, these near-human species do not make up the entirety of Civilization; if one takes the numbers from Children of the Lens that each sun in Milky Way averages at 1.3 or so inhabited planets, an awful lot of them are likely to be Z-type planets.

Running the numbers on the species shown in the books, we have twelve naturally telepathic (defined as psychic powers being commonplace and/or universal among them): Palainians, Rigellians, Velantians, Delgonians, Ordoviks, Eich, Posenians, Onlonians, Lyranians, Ploorans, Nhalians, and Dhilians). We also have eight (Martians, Venerians, Nevians, Kalonians, Petrinos, Chickladorians, Vegians, and Tomingans) that are not naturally telepathic. I might have missed some mention somewhere, but even granting that there are double that many non-telepathic species in the books, those with mental powers are not a small minority of the given sample. They also include, with one exception, every non-humanoid species, and without exception also every higher order of Z-type life.

But even assuming that telepathic species are much rarer than this would suppose (it is a small sample to judge millions of species by, after all), and merely make up a thousandth of Civilization, they still number in the millions. If they make up a millionth of its population, then they still consider tens of thousands of planets their native homes. Even at this extremely conservative estimate the Lensmen from these species outnumber the highest canonical numbers for the Jedi Order (given as the tens of thousands in the Dark Forces novellas) by an order of magnitude or more.
Even races like the Eich (who are a Z-type) don't seem to have much in the way of mental power beyond the parlor trick level. It's good for communications, but that's about all it's good for.
The Eich know about Ploorans and think that they can resist their telepathic control at a distance. Even if they are wrong (and I consider that likely, given how they can be manipulated by Nadreck), they would not think so if they had no telepathy at all. Moreover, GURPS Lensman, which might be considered non-canon but official and thus valid where it does not contradict the series, describes the Eich as powerful telepaths.
And while that's not an advantage to be despised, it doesn't compare to precognition.
There is a passage in Gray Lensman that one can read as implying precognition:

[quote=""Overlords of Delgon""]Before his ship was serviced for the flight into the unknown Kinnison changed his mind. He was vaguely troubled about the trip. It was nothing as definite as a "hunch"; hunches are, the Gray Lensman knew, the results of the operation of an extra-sensory perception possessed by all of us in greater or lesser degree. It was probably not an obscure warning to his super-sense from an other, more pervasive dimension. It was, he thought, a repercussion of the doubt in Xylpic's mind that the fading out of the men's bodies had been due to simple invisibility.[/quote]

Kinnison's hunches certainly prove to be true at many times. Though even if we accept this, it is more the kind of vague foreshadowing than tactically useful combat precognition.
When the Grand Fleet's AWACS-equivalent Directrix is being run by a bank of "computers," where "computers" are defined as Rigelians with slide rules... something is very wrong with the setting's computer technology. My best guess is that the robot ships are being remotely controlled by human (or superhuman) operators; the best analogy I can think of is the USS Utah, which was capable of maneuvering under remote control using 1930-level electronics.
There is some kind of remote direction, but it does not appear to be simple remote control. Second Stage Lensmen describes it thus:

[quote=""Chapter 2: Invasion Via Tube""]But not a man died - upon Civilization's side at least - even though practically all the myriad ships composing the inner sphere, the shock-globe, was lost. For they were automatics, manned by robots; what little superintendence was necessary had been furnished by remote control. Indeed it is possible, although perhaps not entirely probable, that the shock-globe of the foe was similarly manned.[/quote]

"Little superintendence" does not, in my ears at last, sound like "remotely controlled drones". And the last sentence clearly implies that robot manning does not incur any noticeable penalties on combat effectiveness - which it should, if they were mere remotes and helpless if their guiding stations were jammed (EW being an established part of Lensmanverse combat). Moreover, they also have "smart bombs" equivalents guided by "robot brains" as of the Battle of Tellus in First Lensman, and in Triplanetary Gray Roger has androids that can pass for human to all outward seeming. Some kind of synthetic computer analogue is clearly present in the setting, even if it is unevenly applied by our standards.

As for "warp-strafing", one passage in Children of the Lens at least implies that Lensman gunners (with unspecified targeting aids) can hit inertialess (i.e., FTL) munitions:

[quote=""The Hell-Hole In Space""]The conquered Patrol cruiser disappeared in a blaze of detonating duodec; the conqueror devoted his every jet to the task of running away; strewing his path as he did so with sundry items of solid and explosive destruction. Such things, however, whether inert or free, were old and simple stuff to the Velan's war-wise crew. Their spotters and detectors were full out, as was also a forefan of annihilating and disintegrating beams.[/quote]
The L2s? Yeah, they're powerful as hell by Jedi standards... but there are also only four of them.
Yes, but the question I addressed here was referring to them. And they are certainly more powerful than the vast majority of Jedi Masters depicted.
I could have sworn tractor shears didn't come out until later than that.
[quote="Triplanetary, "Super-Ship In Action,""]Outfought at every turn, the now frantically dodging Nevian leaped away in headlong flight, only to be brought to a staggering, crashing halt as Cleveland nailed her with a tractor beam. But the Tellurians were to learn that the Nevians held in reserve a means of retreat. The tractor beam snapped - sheared off squarely by a sizzling plane of force - and the fish-shaped cruiser faded from Cleveland's sight [. . . ].[/quote]
That's about where I was going with this. A Galactic Empire that had undisputed control of its own galaxy might be a match for Second Stage Lensman era Civilization, but only given plenty of time to build up a military (as in, a small fleet of Death Stars, that sort of thing).
Vastly superior strategic FTL for Lensman by this point really makes it impossible for the Empire to "win" in such a scenario. It loses for the same reason 40k cannot stand up to the Empire in spite of all of Connor's new evidence. Civilization has the permanent strategic initiative and can concentrate its forces at any given Schwerpunkt at any given time in a way the Empire's staff planners are powerless to work around. The best they can do is build up all they can and make themselves as hard a target as possible in the hope that the Galactic Union will decide they are too tough a catch, similar to Civilization's situation if the same scenario was set a month before Galactic Patrol.
Note that a Death Star is also the natural counter to planetary-destruction weapons that use mobile planetary masses... the Lensmanverse has no shielding capable of handling weapon outputs that exceed that of a main sequence star.
Not as of Second Stage Lensmen, at least. But it is true that none are demonstrated.

The Death Star will destroy a free planet if it hits it, but can it? The standard tactic appears to be jumping in free and basically dumping the planet right on top of the target, and I doubt the superlaser can target FTL objects. Then there is the fact that they rarely use only one planet at a time, and the DS-I's recharge time is twenty-four hours. Also, negaspheres of planetary anti-mass will likely not be harmed by the superlaser, given that they appear to convert directed energy into additional negamatter:

[quote="Second Stage Lensmen, "Chapter 21: The Battle of Klovia,""]The negaspheres also were rendered ineffective by the beam. Their anti-masses were not decreased, of course - in fact, they were probably increased a trifle by the fervor of the treatment - but, with their controlling superstructures volatilized away, they became more of a menace to the Boskonian forces than to those of Civilization.[/quote]
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Darth Hoth »

NecronLord wrote:The average jedi is a shit telepath - normally they can do the mind-trick thing. RotS novellisation has Palpatine say that the ability for a Master to actually read someone's thoughts is unusual. ("Master so and so, you're the telepath, tell me what I'm thinking!") Telepathically, the Jedi Order has nothing on Lensmen.
That sounds to me more like he meant, "Since you're a telepath, can't you tell me what I'm thinking," not necessarily implying that telepathy was rare. I am presently unable to check the novel for a full quote, so I may be mistaken.
Obi Wan, Anakin, Yoda (Canonically the most devastating jedi combattant in their history) Luke et al, are not average, they are amongst the most powerful ever to live, and should be compared to the Children of the Lens, which finds them lacking.
They are the most powerful going by their high-end demonstrated abilities (e.g., Anakin's deceleration in Ep II, Yoda lifting X-wings out of swamps, or Luke building castles of sand with telekinesis in the awfully boring Black Fleet books). Their typical combat performance is inferior to several EU Jedi (for example, Zannah in Jedi vs Sith, who actually does levitation, Scanners-style TK attacks and other crazy things). The Children, being the ultimate high end of their universe, are more comparable to Palpatine (though he loses to them as well in most regards).
The only harm they might be able to do would be with Wankatine's force storms.
Or Uber Jerec, who would take half a second to wish them out of existence. Though that is a cheap shot, of course.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by XaLEv »

NecronLord wrote: That the CP gridfire use demonstrates anything like planet-killing firepower (it doesn't).
That's not quite as exact as I wanted. "Planet killing" and "planet destroyer" and such are all very imprecise terms. There are many degrees of such with the energies required ranging across many orders of magnitude. I'm not saying you could necessarily do to Earth with Gridfire what the Death Star did to Alderaan, but I see no reason why the effects on Vavatch wouldn't support Gridfire being capable at the very least of Base Delta Zero level destruction.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by DrStrangelove »

Starglider wrote:
DrStrangelove wrote:Starglider really needs to read the ME codex and reconsider what he's said
Do you have a specific point or are you just being a peanut gallery troll?
Quite. Relativistic combat in ME? Lets see what the codex says about that.
Taken from the Codex. Bolds are mine for emphasis.
Space Combat


Ship mobility dominates space combat; the primary objective is to align the mass accelerator along the bow with the apposing vessel's broadside. Battles typically play out as artillery duels fought at ranges measured in thousands of kilometers, though assault through defended mass relays often occur at "knife fight" ranges as close as a few dozen kilometers.
Relativistic combat at at ranges of thousands of kilometers

Space Combat: General Tactics

Practical gunnery range is determined by the velocity of the attacker's ordinance and the maneuverability of the target. Beyond a certain range, a small ship's ability to dodge trumps a larger attacker's projectile speed. The largest-ranged combat occurs between dreadnoughts, whose projectiles have the highest velocity but are the least maneuverable. The shortest-range combat is between frigates, which have the slowest projectile velocities and highest maneuverability.

Opposing dreadnoughts open with main gun artillery duel at EXTREME ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers. The fleet close, maintaining evasive lateral motion while keeping their bow guns facing the enemy. Fighters are launched and attempt to close to disruptor torpedo range. Cautious admirals weaken the enemy with ranged fire and fighter strikes before committing to close action. Aggressive commanders advance so cruisers and frigates can engage.

At LONG range, the main guns of cruisers become useful. Friendly interceptors engage enemy fighters until the attackers enter the range of ship-based GARDIAN fire. Dreadnoughts fire from the rear, screened by smaller ships. Commanders must decide whether to commit to a general melee or retreat into FTL.

At MEDIUM range, ships can use broadside guns. Fleets intermingle, and it becomes difficult to retreat in order. Ships with damaged kinetic barriers are vulnerable to wolfpack1 frigate flotillas that speed through the battle space.

Only fighters and frigates enter CLOSE "knife fight" ranges of 10 or fewer kilometers. Fighters loose their disruptor torpedoes, bringing down a ship's kinetic barriers and allowing it to be swarmed by frigates. GARDIAN lasers become viable weapons, swatting down fighters and boiling away warship armor.

Neither dreadnoughts nor cruisers can use their main guns at close range; laying the bow on a moving target becomes impossible. Superheated thruster exhaust becomes a hazard.
Sounds like a perfect description of relativistic combat

Space Combat: Trans-Relay Assaults

The crucial choice for any attack through mass relays is how to divide the fleet for transit. The accuracy of a relay's mass-projection depends on the mass being moved and how far it’s going. Any long distance and/or high mass jump will see "drift". That is, a ship may be hundreds or millions of kilometers from its intended drop point, in any direction from the relay.
A commander has the option of moving his fleet as one large, coherent formation that may be wildly off-position, or breaking it up into many smaller formations that will be individually closer to the intended attack point, but could be widely dispersed.
Being hundreds or millions of kilometers off course, is worth mentioning since relativistic ships will cover those distances in minutes if not seconds, or fractions thereof.
Starships: Crew Considerations


Mass effect fields create an artificial gravity (a-grav) plane below the decks, preventing muscle atrophy and bone loss in zero-gee. Large vessels arrange their decks perpendicular to their thrust axis. The "highest" decks are at the bow, and the "lowest" decks at the engines. This allows a-grav to work with the inertial effects of thrust. Ships that can land arrange their decks laterally, so the crew can move about while the vessel is on the ground.

Warships normally turn off their a-grav systems during combat, reducing heat generated by systems and increasing combat endurance. To provide a point of reference for navigating in zero-gee, floors are painted a different color from the walls and ceiling.
Relativistic ships shut off their artificial gravity to conserve heat in combat, and are designed to allow accelerational effects to assist the artificial gravity.
Starships: Dreadnought

The dreadnought is the ultimate arbiter of space warfare; millions of tons of metal, ceramic, and polymer dedicated to the projection of firepower against an enemy vessel of like ability. No sane commander would face a dreadnought with anything less than another dreadnought.

A dreadnought's power lies in the length of its main gun. Dreadnoughts range from 800 meters to one kilometer long, with a main gun of commensurate length. An 800-meter class accelerator is capable of accelerating one 2 kg. slug to a velocity of 283 km/s every two seconds.(*) Each slug has the kinetic energy of 38 kilotons1 of TNT, three times the energy released by the fission weapon that destroyed Hiroshima.

When used to bombard planets, some of this kinetic energy is lost due to atmospheric re-entry friction. As a rule of thumb, each Earth-atmosphere of air pressure saps approximately 20% of a projectile's impact energy.

The turian fleet presently has 37 dreadnoughts; the asari, 21; and the salarians, 16. Humanity has six, with an additional hull under construction at Arcturus Station. Alliance battleships are named for mountains of Earth.

Everest Class: Everest, Fuji, Elbrus.

Kilimanjaro Class: Kilimanjaro, Tai Shan, Shasta, Aconcagua (under construction) Dreadnoughts


(*) The spreadsheet used to calculate these figures contained two formula errors. The corrected version reads: "An 800-meter mass accelerator is capable of accelerating one twenty-kilogram slug to a velocity of 4025 km/s (1.3% of light speed) every two seconds." While the acceleration strains plausibility, it was necessary to retain the 38kt damage mark. Without this level of damage, there is no need for the Citadel Conventions or Treaty of Farixen, which implicitly recognize dreadnoughts as weapons of mass destruction.
I suppose you can define 4025km/s as relativistic.

Starships: Sensors

"Light lag" prevents sensing in real time at great distances. A ship firing its thrusters at the Charon Relay can be easily detected from Earth, 5.75 light-hours (six billion kilometers) away, but Earth will only see the event five hours and 45 minutes after it occurs. Due to the light-speed limit, defenders can't see enemies coming until they have already arrived. Because there is FTL travel and communications but no FTL sensors, frigates are crucial for scouting and picket duties.

Passive sensors are used for long-range detection, while active sensors obtain short-range, high quality targeting data.

Passive sensors include visual, thermographic, and radio detectors that watch and listen for objects in space. A powered ship emits a great deal of energy; the heat of the life support systems; the radiation given off by power plants and electrical equipment; the exhaust of the thrusters. Starships stand out plainly against the near-absolute zero background of space. Passive sensors can be used during FTL travel, but incoming data is significantly distorted by the effect of the mass effect envelope and Doppler shift.

Active sensors are radars and high resolution ladars (LAser Detection And Ranging) that emit a "ping" of energy and "listen" for return signals. Ladars have a narrower field of view than radar, but ladar resolution allows images of detected objects to be assembled. Active sensors are useless when a ship is moving at FTL speeds.
They use lightspeed sensors for relativistic combat, they all must have really good reflexes.
Weapons: Disruptor Torpedoes

In flight, torpedoes use a mass-increasing field, making them too massive for enemy kinetic barriers to repulse. The extra mass gives the torpedoes a very sluggish acceleration, making them easy prey for defensive GARDIAN weapons. So, torpedoes have to be launched at very close range.

Torpedoes are the main anti-ship weapon used by fighters. They are launched from point-blank range in "ripple-fire" waves reminiscent of the ancient Calliope rocket artillery launchers (thus their popular nickname "Callies"). By saturating defensive GARDIAN systems with multiple targets, at least a few will get through.
Relativistic weapon with sluggish acceleration.

Weapons: GARDIAN

A ships' General ARea Defensive Integration Anti-spacecraft Network (GARDIAN) consists of anti-missile/anti-fighter laser turrets on the exterior hull. Because these are under computer control, the gunnery control officer needs to do little beyond turn the system on and designate targets as hostile.

Since lasers move at light speed, they cannot be dodged by anything moving at non-relativistic speeds. Unless the beam is aimed poorly, it will always hit its target. In the early stages of a battle, the GARDIAN fire is 100% accurate. It is not 100% lethal, but it doesn't have to be. Damaged fighters must break off for repairs.

Lasers are limited by diffraction. The beams "spread out", decreasing the energy density (watts per m2) the weapon can place on a target. Any high-powered laser is a short-ranged weapon.

GARDIAN networks have another limitation: heat. Weapons-grade lasers require "cool-down" time, during which heat is transferred to sinks or radiators. At lasers fire, heat builds within them, reducing damage, range, and accuracy.

Fighters attack in swarms. The first few WILL be hit by GARDIAN, but as the battle continues, the effects of laser overheat allow the attacks to press ever closer to the ship. Constant use will burn out the laser.

GARDIAN lasers typically operate in infrared frequencies. Shorter frequencies would offer superior stopping power and range, but degradation of focal arrays and mirrors would make them expensive to maintain, and most prefer mechanical reliability over leading-edge performance where lives are concerned. Salarians, however, use near-ultraviolet frequency lasers with six times the range, believing that having additional time to shoot down incoming missiles is more important.

Lasers are not blocked by the kinetic barriers of capital ships. However, the range of lasers limits their use to rare "knife fight"-range ship-to-ship combat.
Apparently their super accurate point defense only works against non-relativistic targets, which is why they are used in relativistic combat.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Marcus Aurelius »

XaLEv wrote:
NecronLord wrote: That the CP gridfire use demonstrates anything like planet-killing firepower (it doesn't).
That's not quite as exact as I wanted. "Planet killing" and "planet destroyer" and such are all very imprecise terms. There are many degrees of such with the energies required ranging across many orders of magnitude. I'm not saying you could necessarily do to Earth with Gridfire what the Death Star did to Alderaan, but I see no reason why the effects on Vavatch wouldn't support Gridfire being capable at the very least of Base Delta Zero level destruction.
I don't think there is any disagreement here. The destruction of Vavatch does not demonstrate a capability to utterly destroy (i.e. to melt, vaporize or scatter the mass of) a planet, but we already know that the Culture (an indeed probably all HLI species in the Cultureverse) is capable of destroying planets. Since grid fire is the most destructive weapon available to the Culture, it logically follows that grid fire is capable of destroying planets. After all, they can do it with CAM too, which is supposed to be less powerful.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Darth Hoth wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:I get the feeling that the natural telepaths are something of an exception- contrast to races like the Nevians or Pellegrinans, or the numerous near-human species (like, say, the natives of Klovia).
Who are the Pellerginans? I cannot recall any such name. Are you referring to the Petrinos from First Lensman?
Oh, yes. My memory is a hash; I've got the flu. Sorry.
I might have missed some mention somewhere, but even granting that there are double that many non-telepathic species in the books, those with mental powers are not a small minority of the given sample. They also include, with one exception, every non-humanoid species, and without exception also every higher order of Z-type life.
True, but the threshold to qualify as dangerously psychic is a bit tricky. The Ordoviks and Rigellians, for instance, have the "sense of perception," and presumably psychic communication among themselves, but that is their only ability. They can't control your mind, and as far as I know there's no evidence that non-Lensmen among them can even read minds.

The psychics matter, of course, but they're not a win button in and of themselves.
______
Even races like the Eich (who are a Z-type) don't seem to have much in the way of mental power beyond the parlor trick level. It's good for communications, but that's about all it's good for.
The Eich know about Ploorans and think that they can resist their telepathic control at a distance. Even if they are wrong (and I consider that likely, given how they can be manipulated by Nadreck), they would not think so if they had no telepathy at all. Moreover, GURPS Lensman, which might be considered non-canon but official and thus valid where it does not contradict the series, describes the Eich as powerful telepaths.
When I talk about "good for communications," that's what I mean. Having any level of psychic ability in the Lensman setting makes someone considerably more resistant to mind control. In the case of the Eich, they mistake telepathic control for "hypnotism," something that can be stopped simply by having a "positively and definitely opposed will..." which is at most on the Jedi Mind Trick level, not on the far more profound level exhibited by the most powerful species in setting and by the L2's.
________
There is a passage in Gray Lensman that one can read as implying precognition:[quote=""Overlords of Delgon""]Before his ship was serviced for the flight into the unknown Kinnison changed his mind. He was vaguely troubled about the trip. It was nothing as definite as a "hunch"; hunches are, the Gray Lensman knew, the results of the operation of an extra-sensory perception possessed by all of us in greater or lesser degree. It was probably not an obscure warning to his super-sense from an other, more pervasive dimension. It was, he thought, a repercussion of the doubt in Xylpic's mind that the fading out of the men's bodies had been due to simple invisibility.
[/quote]I don't think that implies precognition above the level that normal intelligent humans exhibit all the time, or above the background level of Force sensitivity in Star Wars ("I've got a bad feeling about this...")
________
[quote=""Chapter 2: Invasion Via Tube""]But not a man died - upon Civilization's side at least - even though practically all the myriad ships composing the inner sphere, the shock-globe, was lost. For they were automatics, manned by robots; what little superintendence was necessary had been furnished by remote control. Indeed it is possible, although perhaps not entirely probable, that the shock-globe of the foe was similarly manned.
"Little superintendence" does not, in my ears at last, sound like "remotely controlled drones". And the last sentence clearly implies that robot manning does not incur any noticeable penalties on combat effectiveness - which it should, if they were mere remotes and helpless if their guiding stations were jammed (EW being an established part of Lensmanverse combat). Moreover, they also have "smart bombs" equivalents guided by "robot brains" as of the Battle of Tellus in First Lensman, and in Triplanetary Gray Roger has androids that can pass for human to all outward seeming. Some kind of synthetic computer analogue is clearly present in the setting, even if it is unevenly applied by our standards.[/quote]Point, although it does NOT appear capable of the kind of superhuman feats of guidance required for effective FTL strafing. Ships normally have to tractor each other in order to fight a beam duel to any useful effect, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

While there may be autonomous computer hardware (I'm imagining the most impressive vacuum tube hardware you ever saw...), it doesn't have the kind of capability that computers "ought" to have, if you know what I mean.
________
[quote="Triplanetary, "Super-Ship In Action,""]Outfought at every turn, the now frantically dodging Nevian leaped away in headlong flight, only to be brought to a staggering, crashing halt as Cleveland nailed her with a tractor beam. But the Tellurians were to learn that the Nevians held in reserve a means of retreat. The tractor beam snapped - sheared off squarely by a sizzling plane of force - and the fish-shaped cruiser faded from Cleveland's sight [. . . ].
[/quote]Hmm. Interesting. However, tractor shears seem to have been regarded as a new development some centuries later during the main series; perhaps they lost the art?
Note that a Death Star is also the natural counter to planetary-destruction weapons that use mobile planetary masses... the Lensmanverse has no shielding capable of handling weapon outputs that exceed that of a main sequence star.
Not as of Second Stage Lensmen, at least. But it is true that none are demonstrated.
Even in Children of the Lens, such devices are planned but not constructed, and sunbeams are still taken very seriously.
The Death Star will destroy a free planet if it hits it, but can it? The standard tactic appears to be jumping in free and basically dumping the planet right on top of the target, and I doubt the superlaser can target FTL objects. Then there is the fact that they rarely use only one planet at a time, and the DS-I's recharge time is twenty-four hours.
Point. Is the sunbeam FTL?
Also, negaspheres of planetary anti-mass will likely not be harmed by the superlaser, given that they appear to convert directed energy into additional negamatter:[quote="Second Stage Lensmen, "Chapter 21: The Battle of Klovia,""]The negaspheres also were rendered ineffective by the beam. Their anti-masses were not decreased, of course - in fact, they were probably increased a trifle by the fervor of the treatment - but, with their controlling superstructures volatilized away, they became more of a menace to the Boskonian forces than to those of Civilization.
[/quote]However, this very quote illustrates that massive negaspheres can be incapacitated by extremely high energy strikes, which tends to offset the fact that they cannot be destroyed.
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Re: What sci-fi nation would be a fair match vs The Empire?

Post by Samuel »

Ship mobility dominates space combat; the primary objective is to align the mass accelerator along the bow with the apposing vessel's broadside. Battles typically play out as artillery duels fought at ranges measured in thousands of kilometers,
How does that work? Shouldn't the enemy be able to turn faster than you can attempt to outflank them?
Sounds like a perfect description of relativistic combat
How so? The fleets have roughly the same velocity, otherwise they would simply pass through each other in a matter of moments. With .05c they would be going 30000 km/s relative to each other
Because these are under computer control, the gunnery control officer needs to do little beyond turn the system on and designate targets as hostile.
Shouldn't all the weapons be under computer control?
Apparently their super accurate point defense only works against non-relativistic targets, which is why they are used in relativistic combat.
No, it means they don't engage in relativistic combat.
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