Moderator: NecronLord
Not necessarily. Additionally, this is in part what fleets are good for; working together to force the enemy into an unfavourable tactical position.Samuel wrote:How does that work? Shouldn't the enemy be able to turn faster than you can attempt to outflank them?
He's being sarcastic, you dork.No, it means they don't engage in relativistic combat.
Where did I claim that they constituted some kind of autowin? Right, I did not. I just addressed the patently false claim that the Lensmen are weaker than the Jedi Order.Simon_Jester wrote:True, but the threshold to qualify as dangerously psychic is a bit tricky. The Ordoviks and Rigellians, for instance, have the "sense of perception," and presumably psychic communication among themselves, but that is their only ability. They can't control your mind, and as far as I know there's no evidence that non-Lensmen among them can even read minds.
The psychics matter, of course, but they're not a win button in and of themselves.
Evidence?When I talk about "good for communications," that's what I mean. Having any level of psychic ability in the Lensman setting makes someone considerably more resistant to mind control.
Except a Jedi Mind Trick does not give full control over someone's mind, at best it creates a momentary suggestion. Even this "hypnotism" is thus more of a telepathic ability than most Jedi ever demonstrate. And what the Eich define as "positively opposed" may not be what we would consider the same by human standards. They are, after all, superintelligent, multi-dimensional space aliens.In the case of the Eich, they mistake telepathic control for "hypnotism," something that can be stopped simply by having a "positively and definitely opposed will..." which is at most on the Jedi Mind Trick level, not on the far more profound level exhibited by the most powerful species in setting and by the L2's.
Well, it is somewhat open to interpretation. Although it does define it as a somewhat reliable sense, rather than deja vu, so taken together with other statements about the Arisian breeding programme raising psychic sensitivity among humanity as a whole, it looks like it would be more than mere embellishment to me. I will not, however, press that particular point.I don't think that implies precognition above the level that normal intelligent humans exhibit all the time, or above the background level of Force sensitivity in Star Wars ("I've got a bad feeling about this...")
Tractoring was necessary because prior to the development of primary beams, no one possessed any weapon capable of harming an inertialess ship in free flight. There are demonstrated examples of FTL combat; I posted a quote from one instance that strongly implies FTL point-defence capabilities:Point, although it does NOT appear capable of the kind of superhuman feats of guidance required for effective FTL strafing. Ships normally have to tractor each other in order to fight a beam duel to any useful effect, and I don't think that's a coincidence.
While there may be autonomous computer hardware (I'm imagining the most impressive vacuum tube hardware you ever saw...), it doesn't have the kind of capability that computers "ought" to have, if you know what I mean.
[/quote]Darth Hoth wrote:As for "warp-strafing", one passage in Children of the Lens at least implies that Lensman gunners (with unspecified targeting aids) can hit inertialess (i.e., FTL) munitions:
[quote=""The Hell-Hole In Space""]The conquered Patrol cruiser disappeared in a blaze of detonating duodec; the conqueror devoted his every jet to the task of running away; strewing his path as he did so with sundry items of solid and explosive destruction. Such things, however, whether inert or free, were old and simple stuff to the Velan's war-wise crew. Their spotters and detectors were full out, as was also a forefan of annihilating and disintegrating beams.
The Plooran devices were actually already constructed and ready as of Children of the Lens, although they are only mentioned, not demonstrated. However, I am not certain that those were shields of the traditional variety; if I recall correctly they were rather talking about setting up some kind of force-field that would allow them to redirect trans-systemic sunbeams rather than resist them with brute force.Even in Children of the Lens, such devices are planned but not constructed, and sunbeams are still taken very seriously.
By all tokens it is, since it appears effective immediately upon activation against ships that are still light-minutes away from Sol in the Battle of Tellus. (Children of the Lens reinforces this impression by noting that detecting and outrunning a supernova propagating at c is trivial for the Boskonian fleets at Ploor.) Sound conjecture makes it an ultra-wave beam; for what it is worth, the contradictory mess that is GURPS Lensman confirms this.Point. Is the sunbeam FTL?
Actually, that was because they were held in reserve and had not yet been released, but were still kept in their armatures. When used in battle they are accelerated and then set free, continuing towards large masses by attraction without external guidance.However, this very quote illustrates that massive negaspheres can be incapacitated by extremely high energy strikes, which tends to offset the fact that they cannot be destroyed.
Hmm. Interesting. However, tractor shears seem to have been regarded as a new development some centuries later during the main series; perhaps they lost the art?[/quote]Simon_Jester wrote:[quote="Triplanetary, "Super-Ship In Action,""]Outfought at every turn, the now frantically dodging Nevian leaped away in headlong flight, only to be brought to a staggering, crashing halt as Cleveland nailed her with a tractor beam. But the Tellurians were to learn that the Nevians held in reserve a means of retreat. The tractor beam snapped - sheared off squarely by a sizzling plane of force - and the fish-shaped cruiser faded from Cleveland's sight [. . . ].
I think you are getting overzealously upset over this.Darth Hoth wrote:Where did I claim that they constituted some kind of autowin? Right, I did not. I just addressed the patently false claim that the Lensmen are weaker than the Jedi Order.
As for the whole debate, I believe you snipped a crucial part. Regardless of how we choose to interpret the sample of species given, there are beyond a doubt species that are unanimously described as naturally "dangerously" telepathic (to the point of being able to kill with pure thought). Even if only a millionth of Civilization's planets are home to them, they still outnumber the Jedi by an order of magnitude or more. And that is just their Lensmen, not other telepaths who would also serve (and it is worth mentioning that even humans sport non-Lensed espers, such as Whatshername Cloudd's girlfriend in Masters of the Vortex). Are you seriously arguing that Lyranians, Velantians, Delgonians, &c are such flukes that they are fewer than one in a million?
Duly noted; I'm still a little skeptical. For me, part of the charm of the Lensman series is the conceit that organic brains really can do it all with sufficient mental discipline, so maybe I'm overlooking computers even when they're there. Though I should point out that there seems to be more evidence of computerization in Children of the Lens than in earlier books.Tractoring was necessary because prior to the development of primary beams, no one possessed any weapon capable of harming an inertialess ship in free flight. There are demonstrated examples of FTL combat; I posted a quote from one instance that strongly implies FTL point-defence capabilities:
Point, although at that point they can also be fled, since they are presumably attracted to their targets only by planetary levels of antigravity. Though that shouldn't be right, on second thought; then they'd be no threat at all to anything that can move at a few g or better.Actually, that was because they were held in reserve and had not yet been released, but were still kept in their armatures. When used in battle they are accelerated and then set free, continuing towards large masses by attraction without external guidance.
I'm pretty sure it's at least five - Kimball Kinnison, the Red Lensman, Nadreck, Tregonsee, and WorselSimon_Jester wrote:The Second Stage Lensmen are more of a threat in that department; I would regard them as the functional equals or superiors of Jedi Masters- with different skill sets, of course. But there are only about four to five of them.
BattleTech for SilCoreStanley Hauerwas wrote:[W]hy is it that no one is angry at the inequality of income in this country? I mean, the inequality of income is unbelievable. Unbelievable. Why isn’t that ever an issue of politics? Because you don’t live in a democracy. You live in a plutocracy. Money rules.
I am sorry if this comes across as rude, but to my eyes it appears that you are unwilling to actually address my argument. Lensmen from telepathic species will have "dangerous" telepathic powers. Either concede or come up with a counter-argument that holds any water. Let us just take the Velantians. Worsel, a Velantian, could telepathically scan space over multi-LY ranges and had mind control that could at least threaten L1 Kinnison, though he was able to resist it. This was before he had any Lens or Arisian training whatever. We know that Lenses enhance mental powers; even human L1s are able to mind-control dumb animals. Is there thus any reason to suppose that Velantian Lensmen will not have at least those same abilities as Worsel demonstrated unLensed? These alone are greater than what most Jedi demonstrate in the telepathic department. And no, this is not telekinesis or precognition, so they do not match the Jedi in all respects, but it is far better than the "communication only" abilities you were talking about before.Simon_Jester wrote:I think you are getting overzealously upset over this.
I do not maintain that the Lensmen are irrelevant, but I think they present a very different category of threat than the Jedi. In some ways they are far more dangerous (they use weapons more intelligently); in others far less so (they can't see the future). Most of our sample of their performance in the books comes from the high end of the power scale, and these individuals are indeed very powerful.
Jedi precognition as I know it is not quite that good. Even Palpatine could be surprised occasionally.The threat of the Jedi is that they will appear at a specific point, break the laws of physics with their wacky Force powers, and make all your cunning schemes come to naught. And that, thanks to their aforesaid powers, they will know exactly when and where to do this.
And the average Velantian or Palainian Lensman would by all tokens easily be a "Jedi-level threat" at least. L2 powers are not needed for this; Joe Jedi as depicted in films and EU is almost certainly not capable of trouncing whole planets, though very high-end Masters arguably are. Individually, human L1s do not all have the mental abilities of Jedi, but not all L1s are human.The threat of the Lensmen is that they will operate constantly, throughout your space, patiently picking away at you using largely conventional means (commando raids, intelligence analysis, undercover work), assisted by mildly supernatural capabilities. Only occasionally do you encounter a Lensman powerful enough to pull a Jedi-style stunt and singlehandedly bring your army/fleet/Grand Base/whatever crashing down. On average, in any one place, they are less of a threat than the Jedi would be operating in that place. But they make up for it with massive across the board strategic pressure that you cannot alleviate,* and by occasionally pecking at you with a Jedi-level threat if there happens to be an active L2 in the vicinity.
Now that sentiment I certainly agree with; that would be one of the reasons why I favour old-style science fiction overall. Many modern series tend to be downright depressing in comparison with all their "transhumanism" about how humanity will inevitably be rendered obsolete and unimportant by the all-powerful AI Gods. Lensman and other similar series are bright counter-points.Duly noted; I'm still a little skeptical. For me, part of the charm of the Lensman series is the conceit that organic brains really can do it all with sufficient mental discipline, so maybe I'm overlooking computers even when they're there. Though I should point out that there seems to be more evidence of computerization in Children of the Lens than in earlier books.
The GURPS sourcebook also has the Eich developing full-fledged cyberpunk reality simulation. It also directly contradicts the series by identifying the "big computer on Klovia" in Children of the Lens with the GOMEAC (which was already hopelessly obsolete by the time of Masters of the Vortex) and claiming that it could only manage 5,000 operations per second. Its description of the technology of automatic electronic computers is neither consistent with the series, nor even within the book itself, so I tend to take it with a grain of salt.Out of context, there's an obvious reason for that: Smith was now writing in an era where computers were a known part of technology, and like all known parts of technology, he just loved to crank it up to the Nth degree. In context, the GURPS explanation is interesting: the Arisians intentionally suppressed (not necessarily "blocked all," but reduced) computer technology to promote mental development until the Children of the Lens were born, at which point they could safely let things develop more naturally.
Negamatter is attracted to large masses even without pressors being used, or at least I believe Second Stage Lensmen implied that. In Children of the Lens negaspheres of planetary anti-mass are also employed in the Battle of Arisia. Its attractive forces are poorly defined in the books; as noted, gravity repels it rather than attracts it, so it might well be some "undiscovered fifth force" at work. Either way, accelerating it and throwing it at a planet is not terribly difficult.Point, although at that point they can also be fled, since they are presumably attracted to their targets only by planetary levels of antigravity. Though that shouldn't be right, on second thought; then they'd be no threat at all to anything that can move at a few g or better.
All right. Before you explode, you do have a point about Worsel. I haven't read Galactic Patrol in years, and I'd forgotten the exact degree of his capabilities, much as I had forgotten about interplanetary flight in Patrol space armor.Darth Hoth wrote:I am sorry if this comes across as rude, but to my eyes it appears that you are unwilling to actually address my argument. Lensmen from telepathic species will have "dangerous" telepathic powers. Either concede or come up with a counter-argument that holds any water. Let us just take the Velantians. Worsel, a Velantian, could telepathically scan space over multi-LY ranges and had mind control that could at least threaten L1 Kinnison, though he was able to resist it. This was before he had any Lens or Arisian training whatever. We know that Lenses enhance mental powers; even human L1s are able to mind-control dumb animals. Is there thus any reason to suppose that Velantian Lensmen will not have at least those same abilities as Worsel demonstrated unLensed? These alone are greater than what most Jedi demonstrate in the telepathic department. And no, this is not telekinesis or precognition, so they do not match the Jedi in all respects, but it is far better than the "communication only" abilities you were talking about before.
I said that was the threat, not that it was a guaranteed outcome.Jedi precognition as I know it is not quite that good. Even Palpatine could be surprised occasionally.The threat of the Jedi is that they will appear at a specific point, break the laws of physics with their wacky Force powers, and make all your cunning schemes come to naught. And that, thanks to their aforesaid powers, they will know exactly when and where to do this.
To be fair, everything we know about Palain VII and its people suggests that there are very few Palainian Lensmen. Likewise for some of the other awesome species out there. They have immense mental power, but their mindsets are so weird that only very unusual members of their species can handle the Lensman's Load. As in, more unusual than the small number of humans who can.And the average Velantian or Palainian Lensman would by all tokens easily be a "Jedi-level threat" at least. L2 powers are not needed for this; Joe Jedi as depicted in films and EU is almost certainly not capable of trouncing whole planets, though very high-end Masters arguably are. Individually, human L1s do not all have the mental abilities of Jedi, but not all L1s are human.
Fair enough, although the technology that's actually being used might not be all that sophisticated. Given the beam weapons and a sensor capable of resolving incoming missiles at FTL speeds, the control setup itself doesn't require all that much computing skill if you're just trying to blast every solid object that comes into range. The WWII-era radar guided guns come to mind.Well, I suppose if you want to, you can read it that it is the Velantians themselves that have good enough reaction times to target the inertialess missiles and use direct mind/machine interfaces (which if I recall correctly are mentioned as existing in the setting) to control the point-defence batteries. It would not necessarily be impossible per se in the setting, given that organic minds there (of telepaths, at least) appears to use FTL thought-waves rather than electric charges for communication, and superfast reactions are demonstrated elsewhere. But that would probably require them to be faster than L2s, so I prefer a technological explanation for reasons of internal consistency.
Go for it. I haven't actually read the source book. I just remember that one explanation. The idea of the explanation itself is worthwhile, even if the details of how they fit it into the setting are junk. They are still using tape reels and card catalogs, after all.The GURPS sourcebook also has the Eich developing full-fledged cyberpunk reality simulation. It also directly contradicts the series by identifying the "big computer on Klovia" in Children of the Lens with the GOMEAC (which was already hopelessly obsolete by the time of Masters of the Vortex) and claiming that it could only manage 5,000 operations per second. Its description of the technology of automatic electronic computers is neither consistent with the series, nor even within the book itself, so I tend to take it with a grain of salt.
Thank you. It looked to me as though you were trying to be evasive, which did irritate me a little. I am sorry if I came across as overly harsh.Simon_Jester wrote:So, again, please do not explode. Your demand for a concession is met, though I still think you were getting overzealously upset over the whole thing.
Well, I would assume that they are naturally rarer (although the Palainians were established as an ancient colonising species in the series, so they are probably larger than most single-planet species, and they would probably also tend to live longer than human L1s).To be fair, everything we know about Palain VII and its people suggests that there are very few Palainian Lensmen. Likewise for some of the other awesome species out there. They have immense mental power, but their mindsets are so weird that only very unusual members of their species can handle the Lensman's Load. As in, more unusual than the small number of humans who can.
NO, this is NOT a denial that such Lensmen exist.
Perhaps; as noted, it does not mention any specific mechanism beyond general descriptions. I merely sought to note the demonstrated capabilities with regards to targeting.Fair enough, although the technology that's actually being used might not be all that sophisticated. Given the beam weapons and a sensor capable of resolving incoming missiles at FTL speeds, the control setup itself doesn't require all that much computing skill if you're just trying to blast every solid object that comes into range. The WWII-era radar guided guns come to mind.
Perhaps those are the best they have available, as in better than what we consider obviously superior today to their closest real-life analogues? There might be some technobabblish reason that thought is most easily recorded on tape, for example. And I think I read somewhere that IBM developed super-"punchcards" with better storage than discs a few years ago. By now, however, I am venturing into territories well outside my expertise, so this is just loose speculation. The out of universe explanation is of course clear, and if an in-universe one is required, a modification on the GURPS story works as well as anything.Go for it. I haven't actually read the source book. I just remember that one explanation. The idea of the explanation itself is worthwhile, even if the details of how they fit it into the setting are junk. They are still using tape reels and card catalogs, after all.
It is very easy to try to address questions in good faith and say only things one sincerely believes to be true, and still be perceived as an evasive debater by others for not admitting that they were right all along when they first decided they were right. This may not have happened to you, but trust me, it can.Darth Hoth wrote:Thank you. It looked to me as though you were trying to be evasive, which did irritate me a little. I am sorry if I came across as overly harsh.
Remember the portrayal of the Palainians in First Lensman. To find a Lensman-grade mind, Virgil Samms has to go clear to the homeworld of the species and talk to the membership of a Palainian deviants' club. There, he must find the most supremely deviant Palainian of all. And even then he has quite a job convincing the fellow to go to Arisia... eventually, in a few decades.Well, I would assume that they are naturally rarer (although the Palainians were established as an ancient colonising species in the series, so they are probably larger than most single-planet species, and they would probably also tend to live longer than human L1s).
The same thing has happened to me before. Again, my apologies if I came across as rude.Simon_Jester wrote:It is very easy to try to address questions in good faith and say only things one sincerely believes to be true, and still be perceived as an evasive debater by others for not admitting that they were right all along when they first decided they were right. This may not have happened to you, but trust me, it can.
It doesn't help that the points which are directly discussed are often only tangentially related to whatever the other thought was their main point... the one you aren't conceding because you didn't realize it was up for debate, or didn't see in the terms that make it so self-evident to the other party.
Still, he only recruited, what, a dozen Lensmen on Earth? Compared to the one hundred annually graduated at the Wentworth Academy, that is rather few. I think there was something in one of the books (or perhaps the foreword) that mentioned that Lensman candidates were rarer then than they became in the series proper (a number of centuries passed in between) because of the four chosen species not being as close to perfection at that stage. It is thus conceivable that Palainians, too, would be more common by then. But assuming the proportions stayed roughly the same, they would still be an order of magnitude or more fewer than the humans per planet, and everything indicates that they also had fewer colonies, probably much fewer.Remember the portrayal of the Palainians in First Lensman. To find a Lensman-grade mind, Virgil Samms has to go clear to the homeworld of the species and talk to the membership of a Palainian deviants' club. There, he must find the most supremely deviant Palainian of all. And even then he has quite a job convincing the fellow to go to Arisia... eventually, in a few decades.
Contrast this to the numerous Lensmen Samms manages to recruit on Earth in relatively short order. The contrast does not speak well for the recruitment rate the Lensman Corps is likely to have on Palainian worlds.
Within no more than a few years in First Lensman, Samms has enough Lensmen to form the cadre of the Patrol, including (God help us) the infamous "Lensman-attorney" referenced near the end. I very much doubt he has fewer than a hundred Lensmen total, and the supermajority of them are human.Darth Hoth wrote:Still, he only recruited, what, a dozen Lensmen on Earth? Compared to the one hundred annually graduated at the Wentworth Academy, that is rather few. I think there was something in one of the books (or perhaps the foreword) that mentioned that Lensman candidates were rarer then than they became in the series proper (a number of centuries passed in between) because of the four chosen species not being as close to perfection at that stage. It is thus conceivable that Palainians, too, would be more common by then. But assuming the proportions stayed roughly the same, they would still be an order of magnitude or more fewer than the humans per planet, and everything indicates that they also had fewer colonies, probably much fewer.
I will check First Lensman, then. One thing that might be considered is that "human" in that universe is not necessarily synonymous with "Tellurian", so from what you said those Lensmen could come from other planets as well. I seem to recall some line suggesting that they had swept Earth fairly clean for candidates after they had signed up Northrop and his friends, but my memory has let me down before.Simon_Jester wrote:Within no more than a few years in First Lensman, Samms has enough Lensmen to form the cadre of the Patrol, including (God help us) the infamous "Lensman-attorney" referenced near the end. I very much doubt he has fewer than a hundred Lensmen total, and the supermajority of them are human.
Personally, I'd be surprised if there were ever more than a few Palainian Lensmen at any one time, given the sheer difficulty of finding even one qualified candidate. Remember that the Palainians at this point are only a few centuries (not many generations at all, if they're so long lived) from producing an L2. They're not that far short of their 'final form,' and yet the traits that are absolutely required for use of the Lens are regarded as perversions by the standards of their species.
