Ghost Hunters - Bullshit or real?

[Big Phil]

For some reason every Wednesday I always find myself watching Ghost Hunters, in spite of the fact that they never seem to find any ghosts and when they do, I always suspect bullshit. Browsing the web, I find many skeptic sites criticizing the GH approach and casting doubt on their "evidence." (Ghost Adventures, Most Haunted, and Paranormal State are even worse) So here's my question:

What exactly are the Ghost Hunters folks catching on video, in photos, and EVP? Is it electronic "noise," misidentified natural phenomena, people screwing with them, or are they just flat out making shit up and presenting it as evidence? Most of the skeptic sites call bullshit on their evidence, but they only occasionally suggest an alternative to a ghost or haunting; I recognize they don't have to suggest an alternative, but I'm always curious what natural phenomena could present itself as ghosts, assuming it's not hoaxsters.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Can't speak for the veracity of the actual scientific tests, but a sorta inside view on how things are run on that show. I actually know one of the people who were actually in the running for one of the new Ghost Hunter teams (friend of a friend, but I have had dinner with her and keep somewhat up to date with her doings), or whatever it is they're doing now. She also was on that 'live' episode they showed on Halloween. Apparently as far as the cast is concerned, it's run pretty much like a 'reality' show. Those who create the most interesting drama are given the most favour/screentime, and choosing is based more on entertainment potential rather than actual technical qualifications.

She claims to be a empath, is currently going to school for other aims, and refuses to make any solid claims regarding her feelings as she feels they cannot be evidenced in a reliable, repeatable manner. She was passed over for someone who spends more time homeless, has a tendency to go into psychotic 'fits', and generally wears a little less than her.

Not to say that this has any effect on how reliable their actual scientific tests are. But I think it's safe to say going in that they're going to value entertainment over scientific reliability in almost any case.

[Superman]

You decide

[Lagmonster]

What exactly are the Ghost Hunters folks catching on video, in photos, and EVP?

Fun fact about ghost hunters: They hate digital cameras. While some are still capable of capturing 'orbs' on digital film if there's enough dust in the air, many actually prefer old fashioned film because it's far more likely to 'capture' imperfections or reflections that appear as dabs or streams of light.

Other fun: Ghost hunters love old structures that are partially falling apart. Firstly, because it plays into the myths - older buildings are more likely to have been occupied by deceased people, right? But more importantly, old structures generate a shitload of noise. Creaks, garbles, snaps, squeaks - new buildings don't produce the excitement of rotting floorboards and ancient plumbing and failing fifty-year-old electrical systems.

And last but not least, abandoned or neglected structures are also filthy, and more prone to having insects and vermin scratching in the walls and knocking things off of shelves. And of course, old buildings kick up a lot of dust when you disturb them only once a year. Open some doors and windows on a building that's been sealed for months and wander through it, and you'll kick up all kinds of dust that can create interesting camera effects, especially if you're shooting in the dark with a flash.

EVP has been documented elsewhere; it boils down to the same human self-trick phenomenon that lets us see shapes in clouds.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

For some reason every Wednesday I always find myself watching Ghost Hunters, in spite of the fact that they never seem to find any ghosts and when they do, I always suspect bullshit. Browsing the web, I find many skeptic sites criticizing the GH approach and casting doubt on their "evidence." (Ghost Adventures, Most Haunted, and Paranormal State are even worse) So here's my question:

What exactly are the Ghost Hunters folks catching on video, in photos, and EVP? Is it electronic "noise," misidentified natural phenomena, people screwing with them, or are they just flat out making shit up and presenting it as evidence? Most of the skeptic sites call bullshit on their evidence, but they only occasionally suggest an alternative to a ghost or haunting; I recognize they don't have to suggest an alternative, but I'm always curious what natural phenomena could present itself as ghosts, assuming it's not hoaxsters.

It's 100% bullshit. It's a simple as that. Give me an poorly sealed or dirty camera (for anomalous blobs,) inadequately shielded or grounded electronics (for electronic noise. Some of the equipment so-called "ghost hunters" have used was especially prone to EMI, and would inadvertently receive broadcast signals from things like baby monitors,) and put me in an old, drafty house (anomalous air currents and noise) with rodents (ambience, anomalous noises) in the walls and a complete lack of adequate insulation (anomalous warm or cool spots;) and I'll give you a convincing video of a haunting. Present it to the "true believers," or put such people in charge of gathering the evidence; and I will guarantee that they will use the human brain's phenomenal pattern inventing matching ability to swear that there were real ghosts in that video.

[Superman]

EVP has been documented elsewhere; it boils down to the same human self-trick phenomenon that lets us see shapes in clouds.

That and some extra work in the sound editing room. Don't forget that this is a television show that lives by the number of viewers it can pull in, and an hour of finding nothing amounts to low ratings. Check out that link I posted.

[Akhlut]

Another problem is that they are all lay people (I know that the two main guys are plumbers; I don't know about the other four/five on the show regularly, but they certainly aren't scientists), so they are probably a lot more prone to misinterpreting data then trained scientists would be, and possibly unaware of more subtle explanations for other phenomena.

However, at least they try to be skeptical, even if they don't always succeed, unlike Paranormal State or a couple of those other ones that are completely credulous and take everything on face value and have their 'psychic' always finding demons, murderers, and poltergeists in every other home.

[Solauren]

Let me put it this way;

They don't take any control, or do any serious research, of a situation.

They leave all variables outside of their own control.

Where's the Home inspection? (Mike Holmes level). You need to eliminate things like foundation damage, appliance malfunctioning, bad insulation, bad air circulation, bad weatherproofing, old materials, animals getting in, etc.

Where's the geological survey/property survey? Even if the house is in perfect condition, other things can affect it. All you need if a house on piss-poor ground, and it will start shifting and making noise. Hell, all you need is a railroad you can't hear, and you'll get periodic rumblings in the house that will freak you out.

Where's the mapping of thermal and air currents? This goes with the Home inspection, but beyond that. Uneven heating of the house can cause shifting and all sorts of things to happen.

Why arn't the houses being sealed up air-tight, and then fumigated to high heaven? This would elminate all vermin and unwanted life in the house. No Bugs and Rats running around making noises or knocking things over.


I'll tell you why.

Because, these things are supposed to 'scare off' ghost and hauntings. In reality, they correct the cause of the 'unexplained events' (effectively explaining them), or point to the cause so you know it's not a ghost.


Personal Case in point:
The first house my family lived in had serious problems. (A contractor friend of the family saw the house after my parents moved and and said he would have told them not to by the house, and possibly report it's owners for selling to sell an unsafe house). To a little kid, it seemed like the house was haunted...

The house moaned and creeked alot - it was an old house, and some of the floor joists were in bad shape.
Areas got very hot or very cold sometimes (bad air ducts, insulation, and furnace)
Windows rattled without 'explaination' - see floor joists.
Weird noises from the attic - hole that squirrels, rats and raccoons were getting into
Drafts - Bad insulation and weather sealant
TV randomly switching channels - old TV/converter box.
Fuses blowing at random - Turns out, all the fuses were smaller then the circuit was meant for.

Guess what happened after they did some updating and renovations. All that stuff went away.


99.99999% of the time, a haunting can be explained as; The location is in major need of renovation or repairs.

[jcow79]

Isn't this show on the SCI-FI channel? Doesn't that pretty much tell you everything you need to know? I will give these guys credit in so far as their early seasons when they were first starting out they did a pretty good job of trying to APPEAR objective. They would always try to explain away peoples evidence with natural phenomena like noisy plumbing, squeaky house, warped glass that would cause weird light refraction. They would almost always dismiss camera phenomena like orbs and other common light anomalies that are well known about by anyone with even basic camera knowledge. I do give them kudos for calling BS on that stuff. But I've always felt like the show was after exactly what every show is after...ratings, and have never felt like they wouldn't stoop to the level of downright fabricating evidence if it suited them.

[Zixinus]

I wonder how much of the bad science appeals to the ghost-nuts, especially the occasional sceptical character. Sometimes hiding your bias is the best way to encourage it in others. You're claim isn't that ridiculous when you have someone outright denying it.

[Big Phil]

My suspicion is that a lot of the "ghosts" they're catching are a result of their inappropriate use of technology. For example, I doubt these guys really know how to correctly calibrate, maintain, and use infrared devices.

On another note, with the Electronic Voice Phenomena, it seems very likely to me that either they're hearing things where there isn't anything, or else they're capturing electronic data transmissions in the air - phone calls, television, radio, etc. Do cassette recorders also capture EVP, or is this a recent phenomena brought about by digital voice recorders and digital cameras?

Oni - the Internet is awash with people making claims about the goings on within the Ghost Hunters crew - Kris Williams has supposedly screwed every single member of the cast, for example. They've definitely gone away from their "skeptical investigator" roles that they portrayed the first season and are more a reality TV show every week that passes. Plus, the eye candy has definitely improved, which I for one appreciate

[PainRack]

Because, these things are supposed to 'scare off' ghost and hauntings. In reality, they correct the cause of the 'unexplained events' (effectively explaining them), or point to the cause so you know it's not a ghost.

Guess what happened after they did some updating and renovations. All that stuff went away.

99.99999% of the time, a haunting can be explained as; The location is in major need of renovation or repairs.

Wasn't there a "ghost" hunter shown on national geographic, where the teams consistently keep finding this kinda stuff out?
One of the reasons why such investigation is useful is because of the potential benefit they can bring. Imagine a team finding out that your house insulation ventilitation sucks and is trapping in potentially dangerous doses of CO2 and other gases......

[Serafina]

Wasn't there a "ghost" hunter shown on national geographic, where the teams consistently keep finding this kinda stuff out?
One of the reasons why such investigation is useful is because of the potential benefit they can bring. Imagine a team finding out that your house insulation ventilitation sucks and is trapping in potentially dangerous doses of CO2 and other gases......

Thats the reason why you get an experts oppinion if you buy an old house - oh, and newly build houses, too, if you want to make sure that you do not get ripped off.

[Mayabird]

My suspicion is that a lot of the "ghosts" they're catching are a result of their inappropriate use of technology. For example, I doubt these guys really know how to correctly calibrate, maintain, and use infrared devices.

On another note, with the Electronic Voice Phenomena, it seems very likely to me that either they're hearing things where there isn't anything, or else they're capturing electronic data transmissions in the air - phone calls, television, radio, etc. Do cassette recorders also capture EVP, or is this a recent phenomena brought about by digital voice recorders and digital cameras?

I've read that ghost hunters prefer cheap, crappy, old equipment. They get more noise and static and so forth that allows them to 'hear' or 'see' the ghosts better. I will leave the implications and most likely conclusions of this as an incredibly easy exercise for our readers.

[Vympel]

Bullshit! covered this topic as well. In particular, the laughable idiocy of these frauds walking aroud with their whatever devices (pick up EM fluctuations or something, I don't fucking know or care), marvelling at all the "signals" they were getting - when surrounded by all manner of electricals.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Bullshit! covered this topic as well. In particular, the laughable idiocy of these frauds walking aroud with their whatever devices (pick up EM fluctuations or something, I don't fucking know or care), marvelling at all the "signals" they were getting - when surrounded by all manner of electricals.

Yep. It turns out that a good way of getting rid of ghosts is some aluminium foil... Or simply buying new professional quality cameras and other recording equipment.

[Lagmonster]

As a crowning hilarity, back when I was younger and actively interested in collecting folklore, I met a relatively well-known ghost hunter who launched into a ten-minute rant about how modern technology lowers the faith of people to be able to perceive ghosts, thus making it impossible for you to notice them. That's right: Modern tech doesn't capture ghosts because it makes people not believe in them anymore, which you apparently have to do in order to notice them tossing furniture around. Ghost hunter crews will sometimes even tell you that merely having a die-hard skeptic nearby will actually interfere with whatever psychic energy they're picking up, frighten away ghosts, or otherwise botch up their investigations.

[PeZook]

For some reason, the title of this thread cracks me up. It essentially asks if ghosts are real or made-up bullshit...man, what a tough question

Ghost hunter crews will sometimes even tell you that merely having a die-hard skeptic nearby will actually interfere with whatever psychic energy they're picking up, frighten away ghosts, or otherwise botch up their investigations.

Convenient, but not unexpected. Self-delusions like these are all covered in basic psych textbooks.

[Dooey Jo]

Personally, I wonder why ghosts would impersonate rats in the attic and make ambiguous creaking noises. If I was a ghost and wanted people in the house to know I was there, I'd make them know I was there. Like write stuff in the condensation on the bathroom mirror while they're showering, or throw the television at them while they're watching some bullshit show. I guess there's the not-really-conscious "psychic recording" type of ghosts, but on the shows I've seen, the ghosts are claimed to be like in Poltergeist (conscious of the surroundings and have motivations), but are apparently really crappy at it and like to pretend to be a squeaky chair.

[Lagmonster]

On the subject of the shows, I've tried to watch several of them, but I end up finding them all intolerably stupid. When I tune in, I want to hear a ghost story, not watch a bunch of people running around in the dark in night-vision mode saying "Didja hear that?" to each squeak and rattle, and topping it off by standing in a room with their eyes closed saying "Yes, I sense a woman right there, and she's sad" and then patting themselves on the back for their investigative prowess.

[PeZook]

On the subject of the shows, I've tried to watch several of them, but I end up finding them all intolerably stupid. When I tune in, I want to hear a ghost story, not watch a bunch of people running around in the dark in night-vision mode saying "Didja hear that?" to each squeak and rattle, and topping it off by standing in a room with their eyes closed saying "Yes, I sense a woman right there, and she's sad" and then patting themselves on the back for their investigative prowess.

I wonder if anybody tried to discredit those assholes. There are some shows where they don't even pretend to be even slightly scientifimacal, going all out with a team composed of mediums and empaths and whatnot.

All it would take to discredit such an "investigative team" would be to make up a scary ghost story, invite them to the house and tape them as they run around and make statements about past occupants based on forged photo albums. Then post it on the internet exposed to millions of people.

[The Spartan]

There are also the ones that leave scratches (yeah I know ) on the Ghost Hunters. Funny enough, the times I've seen a show like that, which I admit are only a couple times for the newest ones though I couldn't get enough when I was younger, the guys getting "scratched" are always off camera.

As for the not being able to interact, again, for the ones I've seen, it's usually explained away as something like the ghost is just residual energy and is sort of like a video clip caught in a loop that doesn't play constantly or they have trouble interacting with "our world" and can only do so in certain ways. That sort of bullshit. And of course they always have an anecdote about some "skeptic" who was frightened into belief, blah, blah, blah.

Heh. The worst I ever saw had to do with the Amnityville haunting and a skeptical investigator, as I recall, was saying that the evidence gathered afterwards and presented was ambiguous at best. Then they cut to the guy that had gathered the evidence and was insisting that ghosts were real and he, rather agitated, said something like, "The believer needs no proof. For the he non-believer, the atheist, no proof is good enough. That's it." Apparently, not believing in ghosts means you're an atheist. Though that's a rather clever rhetorical trick for an interview like that, even if it was unintentional; associate the ghost skeptics with one of the most distrusted groups in the country. Even though his temper tantrum amounted to little more than a wordier version of, "How dare you not believe me!"

[Zixinus]

All it would take to discredit such an "investigative team" would be to make up a scary ghost story, invite them to the house and tape them as they run around and make statements about past occupants based on forged photo albums. Then post it on the internet exposed to millions of people.

I think no one would bother making an effort to use an old house and due enough forgery, and also the possible lawsuit that the team would launch. These people will take offence and sue with every dime they have.

And it wouldn't discourage the ghost-nuts not one bit. They would say that you were lying and that there is a ghost in the house, even if you could present a history that shows that no one was killed on those grounds in the last 200-300 years.

[Big Phil]

Other than a straightforward hoax, how does one explain ghosts such as the Hampton Ghost? I think it's just a dude in a costume

http://www.angelsghosts.com/famous_hamp ... cture.html
http://www.ghoststudy.com/monthly/feb04/hampton.html

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Other than a straightforward hoax, how does one explain ghosts such as the Hampton Ghost? I think it's just a dude in a costume

http://www.angelsghosts.com/famous_hamp ... cture.html
http://www.ghoststudy.com/monthly/feb04/hampton.html

That's actually pretty neat, but yeah, the easiest explanation is that somebody, possibly having heard the claims of these 'Australian tourists' that there was a ghost about, just went and opened the doors one night.

But I'll admit that I'm only giving it a cursory glance. The only 'paranormal' stories I even follow with a modicum of interest are those UFOs with Radar-Visual contact, which are still kind of neat and mysterious.