Maine: Question 1, Prop 8 part 2 (And WA's R-71)

[Duckie]

Another Prop 8 complete with Chicken- America still hates gays, no matter where you are. But at least they are passing fucking medical marijuana. A straight person's right to smoke a joint matters more than the rights of gays or lesbians.

I don't want to get personal about how much of a blow this is to me, it's really not stuff anybody cares about.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Gay marriage is completely tanking now that rural isolated community numbers are going in- they've shot up to a 10,000 vote lead. What is wrong with america?

Ive said it before and I will say it again, there are aspects where "Democracy" sucks Balls.
There are things that "the People" should never vote on, because more often then not "the people" are bigoted idiots.
If Civil Rights had happened today, we would have conservatives going around screaming "Let the people vote of integration! don't let the government tell us what to do! lets have "the people" decid what they want!!"

And we ALL know how well that worked. im sorry america but sometimes having something jammed down your throat on a Federal level is JUST what this country needs.

[Simplicius]

I'm not really surprised, as disgusted with the likely outcome as I am. The amount of worthless drivethough country in this state is massive, and there are a lot of small-minded rural morons out there. There is also a fuckload of church influence, even if it's not of the loud & fiery fundamentalist style that we're accustomed to seeing on social issues in the rest of the country. I'd bet the number of people who just quietly voted yes "because it seemed right" and then went about their business is quite high.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Yup. It's over... Mainers are going to lose their civil rights tomorrow by a popular vote.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Yup. It's over... Mainers are going to lose their civil rights tomorrow by a popular vote.

Fuck the people, Fuck'em all, tomorrow the right wing will be crowing and proclaiming that once more "good Christian values" have defeated the evils of Gay Marriage. All I have to say is if that make'em happen then fine, go ahead, Spend millions upon millions of dollars banning gay marriage in every state in America, I am sure it will make you all feel that you have done gods holy work and helped saved us from hellfire and damnation.

Democracy can kiss my ass

[Duckie]

It's not reasonable to blame the right wing- far too many people voted for that. The real blame lies on America and its citizens.

I'm too dead inside and drained and broken to comment any more than that. I don't know what I'll look like by 2012, if I'm alive.

[ray245]

Yup. It's over... Mainers are going to lose their civil rights tomorrow by a popular vote.

Fuck the people, Fuck'em all, tomorrow the right wing will be crowing and proclaiming that once more "good Christian values" have defeated the evils of Gay Marriage. All I have to say is if that make'em happen then fine, go ahead, Spend millions upon millions of dollars banning gay marriage in every state in America, I am sure it will make you all feel that you have done gods holy work and helped saved us from hellfire and damnation.

Democracy can kiss my ass

Of course, too bad most people never think that Democracy can take away people's liberties.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Give them every gun, gentlemen! Every gun!

Gods of dark and death and fire and night be praised above and below, but we've seen seen off the Pierce County bump with only a loss of .77%. Take that, you ghetto and trailer dwelling slime, but you'll not put down my state! Your Christian Old Guard has flung itself up, but it was not enough, not enough!

Note that Clallam, Jefferson, and Skagit counties are extremely rural; Island and San Juan counties are vacation spots for Seattle though very rural so they don't very count. Conversely Pierce, Clark (the county I live in, sadly), and Spokane counties are urban, as is to a lesser degree Yakima and Benton/Franklin, but not enough to change their rural character (one large urban concentrate in each but only around 70,000 - 100,000 people in each, so only the tri-cities with 225,000 are close, but they're tied to the defence industry so that was never likely). Anyway the key thing is that we've won rural counties, we've seen off the conservative lower classes in Pierce County in the metro area with their numbers barely exceeding the mature and responsible urban dwellers in providing support, and we can have our near run thing and a victory which because the conservatives in Washington State have completely and decisively tied it to marriage and the teaching of homosexuality in schools means that next year we can begin preparation to ram full marriage down their exhausted throats.

[Darth Wong]

Of course, too bad most people never think that Democracy can take away people's liberties.

It's pretty good at taking away the liberties of minorities.

[LMSx]

A more detailed Washington State results map for R-71

Approved/Green is good, Rejected/Yellow is bad.

Looks like green is getting its ass kicked so far.

Go King County. A recipe for success in WA is to clean up in King County (Seattle + suburbs), limit your losses in the two counties to the north and south, and basically ignore the rest of the state. I've seen post-election results where almost every single county went majority red on an issue except for King, and the issue still passed.

I hate these campaigns where I'm not sure which positions "Yes" and "No" stand for. I can't help but think that others get confused as well.

Link

A poll this summer by pollster Stuart Elway suggested some people have a hard time connecting those dots. Elway said some 10 percent who took part in the poll were unknowingly intending to vote on Ref. 71 in a way that would be contrary to their actual position.

Well, what's the worst that could happen with voter confusion?

besides butterfly ballots....

[Alyrium Denryle]

Well, what's the worst that could happen with voter confusion?

Maine potentially.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Now if the gay movement is serious about winning America, the major organizations need to be sending canvassers and researchers into Clallam County to figure out exactly how the most remote county in the lower 48 states with one town of 15,000 people that has a port and sawmills and one town of 4,000 people with more sawmills and an insipid vampire novel series set in it, and literally nothing else except trees, where you can drive for an hour with your radio endlessly scrolling through channels and never finding one to lock on to, voted in favour of gay marriage, and repeat the arguments and tactics which somehow worked there.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Now if the gay movement is serious about winning America, the major organizations need to be sending canvassers and researchers into Clallam County to figure out exactly how the most remote county in the lower 48 states with one town of 15,000 people that has a port and sawmills and one town of 4,000 people with more sawmills and an insipid vampire novel series set in it, and literally nothing else except trees, where you can drive for an hour with your radio endlessly scrolling through channels and never finding one to lock on to, voted in favour of gay marriage, and repeat the arguments and tactics which somehow worked there.

The "gay movement" has yet to be serious about winning America. After proposition 8 passed, there were thousands of protesters on the streets. Now I ask where the fuck were all these people when it mattered the most? Where were they when I and a small handful of activists were canvassing and doing the heavy lifting? It's disheartening to me when our civil rights are being taken away and, aside from making a lot of racket, so many of us in our community are too bothered with their own lives without lifting a single finger to help. We also need to do some serious re-thinking on our messaging. Maine was kind of an experiment. After all we went through in last year, did we learn enough to actually defeat one of these horrible referendums? I think we got our answer tonight.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I don't think you get how big the win in Washington State is people. It is the first time EVER in the United States that the population of a state has voted in favour of extending rights to homosexual couples. All the other domestic partnership bills were passed by legislatures. In Washington State this expansion of domestic partnerships to full equivalency with marriage is happening due to the voluntary majority vote of the people of the state. This means that while other state legislatures may be more progressive, Washington State is more or less the most progress in the country among its actual voting population, and has for the first time actually resulted in a state voting to enable an expansion of gay rights. Consistently it has been judges and legislators who have expanded gay rights, and popular votes have rolled them back whenever they could. Now, for the first time, the people of a state in a majority vote are choosing to expand gay rights. The proactive nature of Referendum 71 does mean something incredibly powerful, and encouraging.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

I don't think you get how big the win in Washington State is people. It is the first time EVER in the United States that the population of a state has voted in favour of extending rights to homosexual couples. All the other domestic partnership bills were passed by legislatures. In Washington State this expansion of domestic partnerships to full equivalency with marriage is happening due to the voluntary majority vote of the people of the state. This means that while other state legislatures may be more progressive, Washington State is more or less the most progress in the country among its actual voting population, and has for the first time actually resulted in a state voting to enable an expansion of gay rights. Consistently it has been judges and legislators who have expanded gay rights, and popular votes have rolled them back whenever they could. Now, for the first time, the people of a state in a majority vote are choosing to expand gay rights. The proactive nature of Referendum 71 does mean something incredibly powerful, and encouraging.

Duchess, you are right about that. The approval of referendum-71 fairly groundbreaking. It's just that coming so close to winning in Maine leaves a disappointing bitter taste in my mouth.

[lance]

Can people in Maine try to repeal prop 1 on the next ballot?

[Simplicius]

That doesn't make sense, as Question 1 passed a veto itself, and not a piece of legislation. However, i don't see anything in the state constitution that prevents the legislature from re-introducing a measure that was people's-vetoed, or the people from reviving it as a citizen's initiative. The tricky part would be convincing legislators that reintroducing the measure is worthwhile again and again and again until it sticks.

[Edi]

Bilbo's trolling split here.

[Feil]

Just found out about the results now.

I was really, really hoping

[Duckie]

At least we can try again, if the legislature grows balls. But it'll take time. Trying again in 2010 is going to be pointless, especially since we have to defend NH's legislature and WA is going to be going up for gay marriage then. We need time for new 18 year olds to get to be able to vote, for old persons to die off, and for society to grow more tolerant.

Plus, the mission was 6x12, not 6x9. We've still got one more year to wait for Rhode Island's governor to go away (it's a bizarre reversal of the usual state- supermajority populace support for gay marriage in a state and it won't even pass domestic partnerships due to a single man!) and three more for Maine to rethink this. Additionally, in 2012 we'll have high turnout on the back of Obama, and unlike in California Maine doesn't have a lot of minorities to make that a double edged sword.

Let's hope for a sweeping victory in California, Maine, Oregon, etc. in 2012. Maybe by 2012 or 2016 we'll finally be on the track towards the core states we want- the Pacific Coast, New England, and New York.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I myself am wondering about the viability of a strategy which forces the votes in Washington, Oregon, and California simultaneously.

I think we can safely write off Maine and assume that the polling data for New England is to a certain degree inaccurate. The culture there is liberal enough to make a large number of people lie about what they really think to be polite, but in the privacy of the ballot box they're bigots like all the other rural fucktards. Maine should have been a victory based on polling data, and wasn't. The United States is much further backwards than it is. Even if the 10% confusion factor broke entirely for the other side, even in Washington State, for example, we should have easily had 70% of voters voting to approve R-71. Instead we got 51%. Granted this is probably due to the fact that the conservative voters were hugely mobilized whereas the only (but fortunately the only one we needed) part of the state with lots of liberals having a major vote was the McGinn vs. Mallahan mayoral contest over the fucking Alaskan Way Viaduct replacement in Seattle. That was sufficient to turn the balance against conservative motivation--a bunch of liberals (due to Washington's top-two primaries, both were democrats) fighting over whether or not there should be a new freeway or a light rail line from West Seattle to Ballard.

Heh. I find something cute about the gods-fucking Viaduct saving gay equality in Washington State.

[Guardsman Bass]

Plus, the mission was 6x12, not 6x9. We've still got one more year to wait for Rhode Island's governor to go away (it's a bizarre reversal of the usual state- supermajority populace support for gay marriage in a state and it won't even pass domestic partnerships due to a single man!) and three more for Maine to rethink this. Additionally, in 2012 we'll have high turnout on the back of Obama, and unlike in California Maine doesn't have a lot of minorities to make that a double edged sword.

Does Rhode Island's Constitution not have something like a legislatural override of a Governor's veto?

Let's hope for a sweeping victory in California, Maine, Oregon, etc. in 2012. Maybe by 2012 or 2016 we'll finally be on the track towards the core states we want- the Pacific Coast, New England, and New York.

It's a pity that this whole thing has to be fought state-by-state, since that means there will probably be some serious hold-outs on gay marriage until there's enough national support to simply pass federal laws protecting it. Maybe in a few years we can get a Congress with the balls and decency to drop or modify DOMA.

On a side-note, that's the second time the "think of the children!" bit was used by the bigots in the anti-gay marriage crowd. Advocates really need to come up with a good counter for it, and particularly some good ads.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

That doesn't make sense, as Question 1 passed a veto itself, and not a piece of legislation. However, i don't see anything in the state constitution that prevents the legislature from re-introducing a measure that was people's-vetoed, or the people from reviving it as a citizen's initiative. The tricky part would be convincing legislators that reintroducing the measure is worthwhile again and again and again until it sticks.

Historically, that's what happened with gay rights in the Maine legislature. Maine had passed gay rights laws three times. It took Maine three times for basic non-discrimination gay rights laws to stick in that state.

[Duckie]

Plus, the mission was 6x12, not 6x9. We've still got one more year to wait for Rhode Island's governor to go away (it's a bizarre reversal of the usual state- supermajority populace support for gay marriage in a state and it won't even pass domestic partnerships due to a single man!) and three more for Maine to rethink this. Additionally, in 2012 we'll have high turnout on the back of Obama, and unlike in California Maine doesn't have a lot of minorities to make that a double edged sword.

Does Rhode Island's Constitution not have something like a legislatural override of a Governor's veto?

I'm not too familiar with Rhode Island, but I believe the problem is the catholic church is heavily entrenched in politics, and also the legislature has no balls. They recently passed a Domestic Partner bill that gives exactly 1 right to gays- the right for a gay person to manage the dead partner's funeral. Good to know that you've got some of the rights of marriage in RI, but only after you're dead.

[Spin Echo]

I hate these campaigns where I'm not sure which positions "Yes" and "No" stand for. I can't help but think that others get confused as well.

Yeah, could happen...