An academic boycott?Academics in Israel and worldwide are fighting against a proposed academic boycott against Israel by the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU) in Trondheim, Norway. The motion for a boycott will be made public on Wednesday, and voted upon at a meeting of the university's board of governors next Thursday, November 12. The boycott would be the first of its kind at a European university.
The boycott initiative started with a letter, signed by 34 professors and assistant professors at NTNU and the University College of Sør-Trøndelag, also in Trondheim. NTNU is Norway's second-largest university.
The letter read: "We, who have signed this letter, believe that it is time that academic institutions contributed to an international pressure against Israel so that real negotiations between Israel, democratically elected Palestinian authorities and the international society can begin."
The letter claims that Israeli universities and other institutions of higher education "have played a key role in the policy of oppression" that the signatories claim exists in Israel. It goes on to say that "Israel goes against all the ideals of open universities and academic freedom."
Signatories "believe that an academic boycott can make the seriousness of the present situation clearer to academics and others in Israel." The signatories call on their universities to implement a boycott, which "should cover the educational, research and culture institutions of the state of Israel and their representatives, regardless of religion or nationality. This means that we refrain from participating in any kind of academic or cultural cooperation with Israeli institutions and their representatives until guaranties are issued that the occupation of Palestinian land will be terminated."
Those signatories that could be reached refused to comment on their reasons for signing the letter.
NTNU professor Bjørn Alsberg is leading the fight against the proposed boycott. He has drafted a petition which has received both local and international support, with 25 NTNU professors, five Nobel Laureates, and over a thousand academics and concerned citizens from around the world among the signatories so far.
He told The Jerusalem Post on Monday that his arguments against the boycott were less concerned with the ideology behind it, and "more focused on the damage that will follow and the problems that will, morally and logically, follow from such a boycott."
He believes the boycott would be detrimental to his university, and that pressuring Israeli academic institutions is not an effective way to push the government for change. He also thinks that it goes against the very idea of what the university is and should be.
"A lot of people find the boycott a problem because of the principle of the university, centrally, taking a political standpoint on behalf of everybody," he said. "I don't think that's the role of the university, and I think this is one of the strongest points against this [boycott]. It's the principle - should you allow a university to make political statements on behalf of everybody?"
Alsberg also believes that, if the proposal is accepted, NTNU will have some difficult issues to face.
"It means that we have to initiate a completely new process," he said. "You can't really defend a position that this is something we should do only towards Israel. If I had been very critical [of Israel], I would also have to be critical towards other countries violating human rights and so on. We would have to make a new process of using boycott as a weapon."
He said that to boycott "only Israel, of all countries, would raise some very unpleasant questions."
Dr. Ed Beck is the president of Scholars for Peace, which is working with Alsberg and the other NTNU professors in their struggle.
"NTNU is a major Norwegian science and technology university, like the Technion or MIT, and a university of that stature engaging in an academic boycott of Israel, in a country that prides itself on its history of fighting anti-Semitism, is certainly a disappointment and a challenge," he told the Post on Monday night.
The organization has already worked to combat similar proposals in Britain and Canada.
Beck said that by gathering support from other academics, many of them prominent, a message could be sent to those that would boycott Israeli academics: "As professors and colleagues, if you boycott Israel, you boycott us as well."
"This is our way of standing in solidarity with Israeli academics, and telling them that academic boycotts are counter-productive in terms of achieving peace. Many in the peace movement are academics, and boycotts are acts of discrimination that interrupt academic freedom," he said.
He explained that, in the world of academia, peer review is paramount, "so when your colleagues put you on the block for your behaviour, your goose is cooked. This is why the British backed down and the Canadians backed down [from their proposed boycotts]."
Beck said the support of such respected academics as Nobel Laureates got the message across even more strongly. He has set a goal of collecting 5000 signatures on the Norway petition, but expects to exceed or even double that goal.
"We're telling them, cut it out!"
University of Haifa's Rector, Professor Yossi Ben-Artzi, is also anxious to see the boycott stopped.
"Academic boycotts serve only to harm academic freedom, impede intellectual advancement and offend universal values," he said in a written statement. He added that "Israel is an enlightened country and the move for a boycott of Israel is clearly based on misinformation and misrepresentation. Israel's universities are of the most active in international research and shared academic endeavours - the results of which are renowned. The University of Haifa, in particular, is carrying out innovative research in conjunction with Norwegian scientists in various fields. I hope that NTNU will promptly reconsider the boycott motion."
Ben-Artzi has already approached his counterpart at NTNU, Rector Torbjørn Digernes, to ask him to withdraw the proposal before the meeting. His efforts, however, have been unsuccessful thus far. The Simon Wiesenthal Center's director for international relations, Dr. Shimon Samuels, has already sent a letter to the president of NTNU's Board of Directors, in which he decried Digernes's support for the campaign.
"Never since [Vidkun] Quisling [A Norwegian army officer and politician who collaborated with Nazi forces in Norway] has there been such academic prejudice in Norway, and never since Hitler has any University rector in Europe granted it his personal blessing," he wrote.
Digernes could not be reached for comment.
Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
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Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
The idea is for this:
Of course, it can be double-edged, since your own professors will have to cut ties with any joint works they are doing in Israel, which (given the nature of Israeli universities) can include some cutting-edge cancer research, computer research, and the fields of history and archaeology.
But Israeli academics will be locked out of peer collaboration and, I presume, will not be able to get their works peer-reveiwed-- not sure if that is how things work as well, or not. Plus any student exchanges will likely be cut.
It's one front among many to alienate Israel the way South Africa was alienated. If someone feels Israel deserves isolation, this is one way to do it. Academies can also do it without having to go through government and voters, unlike, say, pushing a trade embargo would require.
No exchanges, no visiting professors, no joint research, no joint papers published, etc. It's one of those things where you have to be in that particular pond to feel the ripples, but for those who are, indeed, in that pond it will be problematic. Israeli universities are involved in a lot of research and stuff.This means that we refrain from participating in any kind of academic or cultural cooperation with Israeli institutions
Of course, it can be double-edged, since your own professors will have to cut ties with any joint works they are doing in Israel, which (given the nature of Israeli universities) can include some cutting-edge cancer research, computer research, and the fields of history and archaeology.
But Israeli academics will be locked out of peer collaboration and, I presume, will not be able to get their works peer-reveiwed-- not sure if that is how things work as well, or not. Plus any student exchanges will likely be cut.
It's one front among many to alienate Israel the way South Africa was alienated. If someone feels Israel deserves isolation, this is one way to do it. Academies can also do it without having to go through government and voters, unlike, say, pushing a trade embargo would require.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
If only one country does it (particulary Norway, a relatively small country), there won't be any real effect on Israel - but propably on that country.
If enough do it, it is an particulary effective embargo - it propably wont upset "normal people" too much, but academics in Isreal will feel it. Which is a good way to put pressure on the goverment without alienating the population.
If enough do it, it is an particulary effective embargo - it propably wont upset "normal people" too much, but academics in Isreal will feel it. Which is a good way to put pressure on the goverment without alienating the population.
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"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
I'm not saying I think the boycott is a good idea, but I certainly find the objections suspect. He seems to be saying that if they boycott Israel, they're being racists. Isn't that somewhat akin to accusing someone who only donates to the cancer society of hating victims of heart disease? And, even if someone argued that they should level an equally harsh boycott against Palestine, could anyone demonstrate that Palestine has an academic body that would give a shit?Dr. Ed Beck is the president of Scholars for Peace, which is working with Alsberg and the other NTNU professors in their struggle.
"NTNU is a major Norwegian science and technology university, like the Technion or MIT, and a university of that stature engaging in an academic boycott of Israel, in a country that prides itself on its history of fighting anti-Semitism, is certainly a disappointment and a challenge," he told the Post on Monday night.
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
I think somethings should be kept above politics. Education is one of them. There are other ways to create preassure on Israel. Isolating Israeli academics as a collective punishment is a terrible thing to do.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
This boycott will achieve nothing beyond symbolism. So long as the US, the research powerhouse in the world, is there and open to collaborative ties with Israel, Israel could well afford to ignore most of Europe, excepting say France or Germany.
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
This seems to be a common axiom among Israelis: Israel and Jewism is one. You cannot criticize Israel without being Anti-Semetic. And no, the logic that there are many Jews that are not from Israel and do not want to go there and that Israel is a nation does not seem to get trough to them when argued. In a few debates, some Israelis seem to have a downright obsession about modern Anti-Semetic prosecution and link it with Israel, regardless of context.He seems to be saying that if they boycott Israel, they're being racists.
Now, it would be silly to say that this applies to every Israeli out there or that some cannot distinguish between the two, but I suspect a common cultural idea being spread among them there. But it definitely applies to the above quote.
As for the actual embargo: well, would it be effective and would it really work?
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
That is of course the very purpose of the boycott; to send a message.Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:This boycott will achieve nothing beyond symbolism.
Björn Paulsen
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
And what would the message serve? Other than being ignored?Eleas wrote:That is of course the very purpose of the boycott; to send a message.Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:This boycott will achieve nothing beyond symbolism.
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Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
The message is in itself the reason and purpose of sending a message, for those folks the results won't really matter. It's like protesting war, even though you know all your unwashed hippy hair, placards, flowers and marijuana won't stop planes from raining fire down on children or some shit.
Would Jewish people criticizing Israel also be called anti-Semites? Are there any prominent Jews criticizing Israel?
Would Jewish people criticizing Israel also be called anti-Semites? Are there any prominent Jews criticizing Israel?
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
A Jewish MP in Britain had pretty harsh words for Israel during and after the Gaza "adventure".Shroom Man 777 wrote:The message is in itself the reason and purpose of sending a message, for those folks the results won't really matter. It's like protesting war, even though you know all your unwashed hippy hair, placards, flowers and marijuana won't stop planes from raining fire down on children or some shit.
Would Jewish people criticizing Israel also be called anti-Semites? Are there any prominent Jews criticizing Israel?
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
There is Bir Zeit University in East Jerusalem.Lagmonster wrote:I'm not saying I think the boycott is a good idea, but I certainly find the objections suspect. He seems to be saying that if they boycott Israel, they're being racists. Isn't that somewhat akin to accusing someone who only donates to the cancer society of hating victims of heart disease? And, even if someone argued that they should level an equally harsh boycott against Palestine, could anyone demonstrate that Palestine has an academic body that would give a shit?
But yeah, I too get weary of the automatic tie that "criticizing Israeli politics = anti-Semitism".
Hell, that means half the Israelis I met are anti-Semitic.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
A lot. Even living in Israel itself, just like I criticise a lot of things about America but somehow manage to still really like the place. I hung around a lot of Israeli leftists, who want to get the religious nuts out of the government and knew that there was no way to "get rid of" the Palestinians. Most were varying types of 'two-state' supporters. My ex-girlfriend's dad, before he died, was a big supporter of Tommy Lapid's "Shinui" (Change) party, which IIRC wanted to secularize Israel, for example.Shroom Man 777 wrote:Would Jewish people criticizing Israel also be called anti-Semites? Are there any prominent Jews criticizing Israel?
I love the place but recognise that a lot of things over there have got to change politically if there's going to be a long-term future for the state. I'm a two-state supporter myself; the current situation is certainly untenable and Bibi Netanyahu is a serious troublemaker who should never get within a hundred miles of a government.
So, I guess by some standards, I'm "anti-Semitic".
Of course, I'm not "prominent", but there ya go...
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
I suppose this is just the sort of thing that can get someone like yourself labeled as a "self-hating Jew"?Coyote wrote: A lot. Even living in Israel itself, just like I criticise a lot of things about America but somehow manage to still really like the place. I hung around a lot of Israeli leftists, who want to get the religious nuts out of the government and knew that there was no way to "get rid of" the Palestinians. Most were varying types of 'two-state' supporters. My ex-girlfriend's dad, before he died, was a big supporter of Tommy Lapid's "Shinui" (Change) party, which IIRC wanted to secularize Israel, for example.
I love the place but recognise that a lot of things over there have got to change politically if there's going to be a long-term future for the state. I'm a two-state supporter myself; the current situation is certainly untenable and Bibi Netanyahu is a serious troublemaker who should never get within a hundred miles of a government.
So, I guess by some standards, I'm "anti-Semitic".
Of course, I'm not "prominent", but there ya go...
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
I don't see the point in this boycott and I find it somewhat counter to the nature of the academic world. One of the things that is supposed to happen is that researchers in different countries are part of a global community; as a general rule, nothing good comes from injecting politics or nationalism on top of it. That only works against the goal of the scientific communit, that is, to advance human knowledge as a whole.
I don't see eye to eye with alot of Israel's policies vis a vie the Palestineans, but that has absolutely nothing to do with whether I want to email an Israeli p-chemist on his groups work using photoelectron spectroscopy. We are SUPPOSED to be above that.
Of course, politics and nationalism have a way of forcing themselves on scientists, but that is not a desired state.
I don't see eye to eye with alot of Israel's policies vis a vie the Palestineans, but that has absolutely nothing to do with whether I want to email an Israeli p-chemist on his groups work using photoelectron spectroscopy. We are SUPPOSED to be above that.
Of course, politics and nationalism have a way of forcing themselves on scientists, but that is not a desired state.
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
Don't be obtuse. Even if all it did was to acknowledge the existence of disapproval among a bloc of academics, that would still be infinitely superior to remaining silent, on a both moral and practical level.Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:And what would the message serve? Other than being ignored?
Israel are allowed to continue their flagrant disregard for human rights precisely because not enough people have called them on their bullshit. Perhaps this single action will not, in fact, trigger the much-needed change Israel so clearly needs. Concluding it would therefore serve no purpose is asinine.
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
Pretty much; I've heard of that phrase being applied. The whole thing goes along with the buggered notion that if you point out any problems or shortcomings about your country, then you're "un-patriotic". Whereas I think it is precisely a certain stripe of patriots who are willing to look, unflinchingly, at their country and try to identify and correct flaws.FSTargetDrone wrote:I suppose this is just the sort of thing that can get someone like yourself labeled as a "self-hating Jew"?
Obviously, in my way of looking at it, "patriotism" does not mean the same thing as "nationalism" or "jingoism", which have very self-righteous and arrogant airs about them. "Patriotism" is simply taking pride in nation and national achievements, provided those are pride-worthy, of course. Moon shot: pride-worthy. Vietnam: Not so much.
I think a lot of Israelis who back the chauvinistic attitudes of the right wing government types have these things confused. I was never raised in the Israeli school system, so I don't know what they teach the schoolkids there about this sort of thing. If they dwell on the "victim" notion, then reflexively a lot of people will see any attempt to criticise as "another round of bashing". Even if that criticism is earned.
As for the academic boycott, I hate to say it but I think it may be a good idea. For those too young to remember, this was the sort of thing that started putting little hairline cracks in the wall of South Africa. I agree with the sentiment that closing academic doors to "certain people" kinda goes against the spirit of academics itself, but it is not the academics you're really targeting. What you want is for the Israeli academics to begin putting pressure on their own government, because their jobs are getting harder. I hope it works; it has been my impression that Israeli culture is more concerned with what academics think, at least more so than in American culture, where there's more distrust of what "the eggheads" might say at any given moment.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
- Coyote
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
While I understand Gil's notion about the closing of doors being counter to academics, I think you pointed it out far better than I did. Academics are supposed to be open to knowledge, but there should also be an ethical standard applied to the acquisition and sharing of that knowledge.Eleas wrote:Don't be obtuse. Even if all it did was to acknowledge the existence of disapproval among a bloc of academics, that would still be infinitely superior to remaining silent, on a both moral and practical level...Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:And what would the message serve? Other than being ignored?
Who knows? If the academics jump in the pool first, maybe more groups will follow later. I hope Israeli leaders get the hint and change their ways dynamically in short order... but some of them can be pretty bull-headed.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
And will this new-found academic ethical sensibility be applied to any country other than Israel? Yeah, I didn't think so. And that is why there is room for accusations of subtle anti-Semitic bias to be made, even if the failure in consistency is attributable to other causes.
There is the moral of all human tales;
Tis but the same rehearsal of the past,
First Freedom, and then Glory — when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption, — barbarism at last.
-Lord Byron, from 'Childe Harold's Pilgrimage'
Tis but the same rehearsal of the past,
First Freedom, and then Glory — when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption, — barbarism at last.
-Lord Byron, from 'Childe Harold's Pilgrimage'
- Coyote
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
I know what you mean, Purnell, but face it-- Israel is in the news every day. There was something I heard once about the number of UN Resolutions passed against Israel-- something like Israel has as many resolutions filed against it as North Korea, Sudan, Apartheid era South Africa, and Libya all combined. Don't know if it's true, too lazy to look it up right now.
But the Palestinians are good about keeping their issue in public eye, and the Israelis are very bad about keeping their issue in the public eye . It has a few other things that make it stick out-- all those other countries are not US-supported, they're not 1st world democracies (which, in what may be some chauvinism, we regard as "more enlightened", even if in some ways that chauvinism may be earned) and they never really made any bones about being paragons of virtue (although many have said that they, too, are eternal victims of one imperialist aggression or another at times).
There are very simple ways Israel can keep the heat off itself, but the current leadership doesn't have the spine to do it. As soon as I heard Netanyahu won the election (or actually was allowed to have it by Livnat, who recognised that she'd be in an untenable position) I knew that we could write off any progress there until the next government.
But the Palestinians are good about keeping their issue in public eye, and the Israelis are very bad about keeping their issue in the public eye . It has a few other things that make it stick out-- all those other countries are not US-supported, they're not 1st world democracies (which, in what may be some chauvinism, we regard as "more enlightened", even if in some ways that chauvinism may be earned) and they never really made any bones about being paragons of virtue (although many have said that they, too, are eternal victims of one imperialist aggression or another at times).
There are very simple ways Israel can keep the heat off itself, but the current leadership doesn't have the spine to do it. As soon as I heard Netanyahu won the election (or actually was allowed to have it by Livnat, who recognised that she'd be in an untenable position) I knew that we could write off any progress there until the next government.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
Name one other western democracy that is as blatantly racist as Israel, has a history of acting on this racism, and is actively occupying/settling more or less foreign land in order to expand their borders?MarshalPurnell wrote:And will this new-found academic ethical sensibility be applied to any country other than Israel? Yeah, I didn't think so. And that is why there is room for accusations of subtle anti-Semitic bias to be made, even if the failure in consistency is attributable to other causes.
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
As a thought exercise, ask yourself how many western democracies were able to avoid doing just those things in their pasts.
Israel and the Third World, which are essentially the infants of the international system, get the short end of the stick here. As Mohammed Ayoob observed, we expect them to "telescope" centuries of social, economic, and political development into a few decades; tell them they cannot use violence (even though we resorted to it regularly ourselves); and hand out loans of sovereignty without demanding first to see any kind of credit (i.e., achievement).
Israel and the Third World, which are essentially the infants of the international system, get the short end of the stick here. As Mohammed Ayoob observed, we expect them to "telescope" centuries of social, economic, and political development into a few decades; tell them they cannot use violence (even though we resorted to it regularly ourselves); and hand out loans of sovereignty without demanding first to see any kind of credit (i.e., achievement).
- MarshalPurnell
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
Gil of course has already made the argument for why it's a bad idea, on grounds of academic freedom, to engage in these kinds of boycotts. Especially when, as Coyote has noted, the selection of Israel is basically politicized and there is no consistency in this sort of thing. I would note that as a practical matter the Israeli academic community is far more likely to agree with criticisms of Israeli behavior expressed on the board than not. Punishing them is counterproductive in that sense, and would likely just provoke a defiant reaction from Israel that would make the state as a whole even less likely to listen to criticism. It would take a united world embargo, a real embargo of trade and relations with Israel, as pursued with South Africa, to force her to the unilateral concessions usually demanded of her critics, and one might very well ask what would come next when, as seems inevitable, Hamas takes over the new Palestinian state and peace remains elusive.
And I'm not going to get into a discussion about whose atrocities or racism is worse (which is not to concede that Israeli actions are motivated exclusively or even largely by racism and not other factors) since that invariably involves subjective judgments and implicitly attempts to dismiss particular misdeeds by comparison with others. Suffice it to say there are countries a lot worse than Israel in terms of human rights, and there are countries within Europe marked by government-sanctioned discrimination against despised minorities (the Roma) or who have used indiscriminate firepower and systematic oppression to break an utterly outmatched insurgency. It can easily appear as though Israel is being singled out for reasons that do not have to do with a proportionate and consistent reaction to her faults, indeed that the academics in question have chosen to become partisans of the Arab side of the dispute rather than objective observers, and that in turn opens the door to accusations. They may not be correct but they look a lot more plausible in such circumstances.
And I'm not going to get into a discussion about whose atrocities or racism is worse (which is not to concede that Israeli actions are motivated exclusively or even largely by racism and not other factors) since that invariably involves subjective judgments and implicitly attempts to dismiss particular misdeeds by comparison with others. Suffice it to say there are countries a lot worse than Israel in terms of human rights, and there are countries within Europe marked by government-sanctioned discrimination against despised minorities (the Roma) or who have used indiscriminate firepower and systematic oppression to break an utterly outmatched insurgency. It can easily appear as though Israel is being singled out for reasons that do not have to do with a proportionate and consistent reaction to her faults, indeed that the academics in question have chosen to become partisans of the Arab side of the dispute rather than objective observers, and that in turn opens the door to accusations. They may not be correct but they look a lot more plausible in such circumstances.
There is the moral of all human tales;
Tis but the same rehearsal of the past,
First Freedom, and then Glory — when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption, — barbarism at last.
-Lord Byron, from 'Childe Harold's Pilgrimage'
Tis but the same rehearsal of the past,
First Freedom, and then Glory — when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption, — barbarism at last.
-Lord Byron, from 'Childe Harold's Pilgrimage'
Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
What exactly is your point, or the point of this exercise? Because we did it once it's totally cool for them to do it? That we don't have any right to comment on their actions? That there's only one path to 'western democracy enlightenment' and the path goes through numerous years of harsh human rights violations?Axis Kast wrote:As a thought exercise, ask yourself how many western democracies were able to avoid doing just those things in their pasts.
Israel and the Third World, which are essentially the infants of the international system, get the short end of the stick here. As Mohammed Ayoob observed, we expect them to "telescope" centuries of social, economic, and political development into a few decades; tell them they cannot use violence (even though we resorted to it regularly ourselves); and hand out loans of sovereignty without demanding first to see any kind of credit (i.e., achievement).
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Re: Norway's second-largest university to vote on Israel boycott
My point is that one ought to be aware of (1) the inherent difficulty of trying to force disparate groups of people, often unrelated, into the cookie-cutter boundaries of a legal fiction, called the sovereign state; (2) the enormous challenges of practicing democracy in environments where "liberal" institutions do not yet exist; (3) the foolishness of beginning with the democracy instead of peace.
What exactly is your point, or the point of this exercise? Because we did it once it's totally cool for them to do it? That we don't have any right to comment on their actions? That there's only one path to 'western democracy enlightenment' and the path goes through numerous years of harsh human rights violations?
I must agree with Purnell here: the act in the OP seems to be a one-sided denunciation of Goliath, largely because it is there to take issue with.