Saudi paedophile to be beheaded and crucified

[Oskuro]

From BBC News:

A Saudi court has ruled that a man convicted of raping five children will be beheaded and crucified.

Muhammad Basheer al-Ramaly, 22, left his youngest victim, aged three, stranded in the desert to die.

He was caught when he tried to abduct another boy by offering him a lift home from school in his car.

The court of appeal in Riyadh approved the death sentence handed down in June. Beheading is permitted for serious offences in the conservative kingdom.

More than 40 people have been executed in such a fashion this year.

Reports suggest Ramaly lured children into his car near their school, near the town of Hail, and took them to isolated areas to rape them.

Human rights group Amnesty International has criticized the court proceedings saying Ramaly did not have access to a lawyer during his trial and that there are reports he may suffer from a psychological disorder.

International rights advocates have long been critical of the death sentences in Saudi Arabia, but the authorities defend the practice as a quick and clean form of execution sanctioned by the Islamic faith.

Crucifixion means the body will be attached to wooden beams and displayed in public after the beheading.

I would personally have gone all Internet Tough Guy on this man, but learning of such brutal punishments in real life makes me a bit sick.

[Samuel]

I would personally have gone all Internet Tough Guy on this man, but learning of such brutal punishments in real life makes me a bit sick.

Why? They aren't really crucifying him, just cutting his head off and displaying the body. How do they cut your head off in Saudi Arabia anyways? I heard that nobles used to pay the executioner in order to insure that he made it quick and clean. Or do they use a guillotine?

[Feil]

It's macabre, but no more brutal than a hanging. And if you're going for a deterrence model of criminal punishment...

I don't approve of the death penalty, but as long as you're killing someone, you might as well try to do some social engineering with it, rather than hiding it away behind a veneer of civility where its capacity as a deterrent is minimized.

[Siege]

How do they cut your head off in Saudi Arabia anyways?

Apparently those about to be executed are given a tranquilliser, blindfolded, made to kneel facing Mecca, then beheaded with a traditional scimitar. The executions are performed in public squares, and supposedly the head is normally sowed back on by a doctor before burial. Not sure they will do so in this case as well though.

I'm not wild about beheading myself - I oppose the death penalty - but I'm not sure it's inherently worse than frying someone on the electric chair or giving them a lethal injection which, from what I've read, isn't exactly as clinical and painless as you'd hope either. Displaying a crucified body, of course, is just bizarrely medieval (which I guess means it's right up Saudi Arabia's alley).

[NecronLord]

I would personally have gone all Internet Tough Guy on this man, but learning of such brutal punishments in real life makes me a bit sick.

Why? They aren't really crucifying him, just cutting his head off and displaying the body. How do they cut your head off in Saudi Arabia anyways? I heard that nobles used to pay the executioner in order to insure that he made it quick and clean. Or do they use a guillotine?

They use a Scimitar. The criminal/victim is typically beheaded in one blow. This is of course, less certain than a Guillotine. Crucifixion or whatever is done with the head sewn back on.

[Serafina]

Meh...beheading is not that bad as a method for the death penalty.
Sure, you can screw it up, but thats fairly easy to provide. And if it is done right, it is quick and painless.

But the method aside - i oppose the death penalty, and this is a good instance to show why.
Because the chance that there was a mistrial is propably quite high in this case. Which means that a innocent man might be killed.

As for the public display of the death body - it does not harm the beheaded person (obviously), but it might cause severe grief to the relatives.

[Anguirus]

I'm not sure beheading would actually be my pick for a humane execution. First of all, as people note, it's easy to screw up. Second of all, this obviously can't be tested, but there is enough anecdotal evidence of heads blinking, changing expression, even trying to speak for a few seconds that I wonder how quick and painless it really is. Sure, death is assured, but if the brain keeps working for a second or two that's some pain and horror right there. Of course in Saudi Arabia that probably isn't considered so bad. At least they don't crucify him *first.*

[Oskuro]

I agree that a well performed beheading can be more humane than electrocution, but the act of dismembering someone, particularly beheading, feels more brutal to me than the other more common forms of execution.

[Junghalli]

I'm not sure beheading would actually be my pick for a humane execution. First of all, as people note, it's easy to screw up. Second of all, this obviously can't be tested, but there is enough anecdotal evidence of heads blinking, changing expression, even trying to speak for a few seconds that I wonder how quick and painless it really is. Sure, death is assured, but if the brain keeps working for a second or two that's some pain and horror right there. Of course in Saudi Arabia that probably isn't considered so bad. At least they don't crucify him *first.*

Beheading can be thought of as having your body amputated without anaesthetic, and according to this it takes 8-10 seconds to lose consciousness when the brain loses blood, so I'm highly skeptical of the idea that it would be painless (assuming the victim isn't out of it thanks to the tranquilizer by the time the death blow is administered), but at least it's over pretty quickly. I can think of many worse ways to die.

[Sela]

I freely admit to bias in the matter - I might worry about the effect of a mistrial or innocents being treated to the death penalty. And I might have some personal scruples about the place of man to judge whether or not one should be executed. But just hearing that he abused children. . . FIVE times? Forget it - he deserves eye for an eye torture back five times and *THEN* an execution. Forget trying to rehabilitate him - the world will be a better place without him.

Stepping away from my emotions; if we assume that the evidence against him is solid and correct and that he did what he is being accused of - is there any study that demonstrates pedophiles -who have repeatedly acted on said deviant tendencies- can be successfully rehabilitated? If not - then humane concerns aside, why keep this man indefinitely imprisoned?

[The Yosemite Bear]

It just reminds me of the old dark ages punishments...

[CmdrWilkens]

I heard that nobles used to pay the executioner in order to insure that he made it quick and clean.

That isn't just the case in Saudi Arabia (unless this was your point) nor was it limited to nobles. If you were gonna be beheaded then it was certainly worthwhile to pay the axeman (or the hangman, and also the pistoleer). The last thing you want is a botched beheading where the sword doesn't break all the way through and sever your head completely in which case you will be left alive and thinking for several long agonizing seconds until the pain and blood loss finally shuts off your brain.

[KlavoHunter]

Or, alternatively, if you don't like the fellow who's about to be executed, you could pay the executioner to intentionally make a mess of it.

I'm surprised that the Saudis are merciful enough to administer a tranquilizer.

[Shroom Man 777]

I'm all for punishing pedophiles and shit, but I really have second-thoughts about the method of execution. Ugh.

[Johonebesus]

I feel that if you're going to execute people, it ought not to be pretty and clean. As others have said, decapitation is probably no more painful than the more "humane" methods used in the U.S. If a society is going to execute criminals, then the people ought to have a chance to really appreciate what they are doing. It shouldn't be sanitized and kept behind closed doors.

In fact, there seems to me to be something especially horrific about execution by poisoning, whether it be lethal injection or the gas chamber. To gradually lose consciousness, knowing that once you do go out you will never wake up, just seems nightmarish. I have read accounts of condemned prisoners trying to hold their breaths and fighting to stay conscious as long as possible. I think I'd rather suffer a sudden and painful death.

[Korvan]

I don't believe in the death penalty and I certainly agree with the ban on cruel and unusual punishments, but I don't really get the whole executions being painless and stress free. Just about everyone I know who has died experienced a great deal of pain and stress at the point of death, or in the weeks / day's leading up to it.

Great-Grandmother - died due to complications from a broken hip
Grandmother - died from intestinal cancer. was drugged up at the end, but experienced a great deal of pain in the weeks before
Grandfather - died from a stroke, was confused, scared and in pain at the end

In fact, the only relative I can think of that probably went quickly enough not to suffer was a great uncle who died when the lead Sabre jet in his formation exploded and took out the entire formation.

I've been close to death a couple of times having experienced a near-drowning and exposure to chlorine gas and while those experiences were both scary and painful (especially the chlorine one) I feel that the pain and fear are of minimal concern when compared to the actual being dead part. If I'm facing a beheading, I won't be worrying about whether or not it's going to hurt, I'm going to be focused on the whole head not being attached afterwards. I need that thing to live!

I'm not saying we should torture people to death, but death and killing is always a bit messy. Personally, I'd prefer a dignified death over a painless one.

[Norseman]

Or, alternatively, if you don't like the fellow who's about to be executed, you could pay the executioner to intentionally make a mess of it.

I'm surprised that the Saudis are merciful enough to administer a tranquilizer.

I imagine that it's much more convenient for everyone if he's tranquilized, he won't start screaming and blubbering, he won't suddenly jerk his head around, he won't in short embarass the officials present.

[Shroom Man 777]

I'd just personally prefer it if they didn't do it so messily. Like, decapitation is bloody messing and involves cleaving through meat and bone. Just shoot the guy or hang him, or even use a guillotine or something. A guy with a sword is just... ick.

You might as well have him trampled by elephants, or have his skull smashed with a rock.

[Siege]

Turns out the preferred way to execute women in Saudi Arabia until the 1990's was to shoot them... And then someone figured they might as well behead those too, apparently.

Here is an interview from 2003 with the Kingdom's lead executioner. It's a pretty bizarre read. According to the guy there's training involved, and one has to be government-approved before becoming an official executioner. None of this should be particularly surprising I guess but the thought that there's someone in Saudi Arabia handing out permits to execute people with swords, that there's a bureaucracy for that sort of thing, it weirds me out.

[wautd]

I would personally have gone all Internet Tough Guy on this man, but learning of such brutal punishments in real life makes me a bit sick.[/quote]

Dead is dead and it looks like he deserves it. It's not like beheading is a slow and painful death.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Turns out the preferred way to execute women in Saudi Arabia until the 1990's was to shoot them... And then someone figured they might as well behead those too, apparently.

Here is an interview from 2003 with the Kingdom's lead executioner. It's a pretty bizarre read. According to the guy there's training involved, and one has to be government-approved before becoming an official executioner. None of this should be particularly surprising I guess but the thought that there's someone in Saudi Arabia handing out permits to execute people with swords, that there's a bureaucracy for that sort of thing, it weirds me out.

Well, that's almost outright crazy, like something from BlackAdder brought right to life. More reasons not to ever visit any place in the Middle East. This is really crazy beyond all reproach.

[hongi]

An executioner’s life, of course, is not all killing. Sometimes it can be amputation of hands and legs.

Yeah, that is outright insane.

“It’s very sharp. People are amazed how fast it can separate the head from the body.”

I don't mean to be morbid...but isn't bone hard to cut?

[loomer]

Yes, but a sufficiently sharpened and weighty axe can brute-force through bone, especially with training. It's also possible to hit a weak spot with the way the neck is structured, and you DO train an executioner for that sort of thing.

[Oskuro]

Dead is dead and it looks like he deserves it. It's not like beheading is a slow and painful death.

How much of the execution method is because of concern for the victim, and how much is for the sake of the rest of society? You could justify any method of execution by drugging the victim so they feel no pain or are not aware, but it feels worse to have someone ripped appart by wild beasts, or put inside an iron maiden, or burnt alive, than the cleaner methods more commonly used today, never mind exposing the mangled remains afterwards for all to see. I believe such things tell us something about the society they take place in.

As an aside, I'm aganist the death penalty, and consider all other forms of execution to be barbaric regardless.

[Shroom Man 777]

Would you guys rather they have just any untrained and unregistered shmuck do the whole decapitating people's heads off with swords? Cause if partially decapitated chickens can go around flailing half-headlessly, something like that would be total shit to happen to human beings.

I mean, it's better than in Blackadder where even Baldrick ends up being executioners. You wouldn't want your head cut off by Baldrick, would you?