SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread

[Norseman]

How large a proportion of our starting force can be mechanized / cavalry / armour / artillery?

[Steve]

Good question.

http://sdnworld.wikia.com/wiki/SDN_World_3_Ruleset

I added tech rules. I'd say only Army Tech of 4 can have actual mechanized troops, and no more than I'd say 1-4 divisions depending on army size. Well, more like industry size perhaps, maybe Industry defines how many mechanized divisions you can have at game start. Open to suggestions there.

Artillery would only be limited if you're below a 2 Techwise, I'd say. Your choice on how many arty guns you have, though note that artillery brigades are presumed to be primarily heavier towed guns, lighter artillery is considered attached to infantry at the brigade-division level and is included in the cost of an infantry division.

Tanks require Army Tech of 3, though those would be WWI-era trench-crawlers and maybe the first light tanks. Not as potent as at 4. Armored Recon requires Tech of 4.

[Steve]

We only have the rest of today and tomorrow left before game start, but in the interim, I'm willing to entertain notions of making naval construction limits not by tonnage but by actual yard slips. I was thinking of a system where Econ and Ind determine number of naval yards and Naval Focus determines how many slipways they have and how large. We could do a system where, say, with an NF of 3 every naval yard has X number of slipways for ships over 30,000T, x number for ships of 20,000T, x for 10,000T+, and so many for lighter ships. An NF of 5 would mean a rather large number of overall slipways, enough to construct at least 10 ships of 30,000T+ displacement at a time, while an NF of 4 would mean only 8 of that size, a 3 only 4-6, etc. Players wanting 50,000T+ ships as we increase the cap would then have to build slipways rated for 50,000T+ ships in dimension and cranes and such.

I actually rather like this idea, but would like input before confirming.

[Ma Deuce]

I like those tech rules; they nerf my (primarily defensive) level 5 army and Air Force by limiting them to WWI tech equipment, which mostly removes my previous concerns of overpoweredness. I shall update my points post to reflect this fact.

As for your concept of naval slips, I'm good with the idea in principal, though you know that someone else is going to bring up the (not entirely unjustified) concern of number-heaviness. As you said though we don't have much time left before the game starts, so to work out specifics of the idea quickly you'll have to ask someone a bit more knowledgeable than myself (like Sea Skimmer).

[Steve]

I'm concerned about number crunch too, but at worst it just means, heh, more work for me I guess.... anyone wonder why I asked for co-mods to step forward?

I think it'd be good, though, because going purely by tonnage limit you're going to absorb a fair amount of tonnage for just 6-8 or so capital ships as they're all going to break 30,000T, a lot 40,000.

Wilkens proposed such a system, but it was quite a bit limiting and set very tight, strict national caps on what you can build. I was just going to suggest using Industry + Economy to determine the number of yards you have, and NF score determines proportion of capital-tonnage slipways and thus capability to build such. At best, a 5-5-5 country could theoretically build 10, maybe 12 30,000T+ ships at a time - enough really for 2 dreads and two battlecruisers a year at game start. Industrial build points could be invested in expanding slipway space to raise production, though of course even a 5-5-5 country only has 550 points in peacetime and building that much would consume the majority of points, 400 or so out of 550, and it'd probably take a year or two to build a single high capacity slipway. 50kT+ capacity slipways would have to be built after game start.

I could probably have a system drawn up by tomorrow.

[Master_Baerne]

On the subject of cavalry - France just fought a major war with the Dutch. Would it be reasonable for me to have largely gotten rid of cavalry units, in view of their total uselessness agaisnt machine guns?

[Ryan Thunder]

anyone wonder why I asked for co-mods to step forward?

I may be able to write a program to simplify things for you if you want, or make up a spreadsheet.

[Steve]

You could, though cavalry still has some uses in some theaters and areas.

[CmdrWilkens]

Two thoughts:

Cavalry was still in a lot of major power's inventory. Prior to WWII the US Army still contained 13 Cavalry Divisions between Active, Guard, and Reserve formations that were only partially mechanized.


Steve I'm gonna edit my points one last time so if you see something hinky please let me know.

[Steve]

Okay.

As for the issue of shipyard capacity measuring, Skimmer gave me the idea that anything below 25,000T just be applied to a general tonnage limit in shipyards, since such slips would be widely numerous, while ships over that would be counted by tonnage and a specific slipway limit. Maybe a minimum of 3 NF to get capital slipways, with a slipway per econ, ind, and NF point up to, say, 12.

[Raj Ahten]

At game start are we supposed to have orbats up for our armed forces?

[Steve]

Well, you don't have to post them Saturday, I'll give everyone to, say, Tuesday or Wednesday to have them compiled for final approval.

Hell, I don't even have mine yet.... for obvious reasons. Tomorrow I'm gonna be busy with SpringSharp....

[Minister of Pigeonry]

Good question.

http://sdnworld.wikia.com/wiki/SDN_World_3_Ruleset

I added tech rules. I'd say only Army Tech of 4 can have actual mechanized troops, and no more than I'd say 1-4 divisions depending on army size. Well, more like industry size perhaps, maybe Industry defines how many mechanized divisions you can have at game start. Open to suggestions there.

Artillery would only be limited if you're below a 2 Techwise, I'd say. Your choice on how many arty guns you have, though note that artillery brigades are presumed to be primarily heavier towed guns, lighter artillery is considered attached to infantry at the brigade-division level and is included in the cost of an infantry division.

Tanks require Army Tech of 3, though those would be WWI-era trench-crawlers and maybe the first light tanks. Not as potent as at 4. Armored Recon requires Tech of 4.

Hmm, is there no limit on starting Motorized infantry? And I see that you're allowing Tech 3 level Armies to use the first Light Tanks, would that put the Fiat 3000 within reach? Or is it too late: First built historically in 1919, in service 1921. Design based off the WWI Renault FT 17.

[Norseman]

Indeed there should be some sort of percentage list telling us how big a section of our armed forces can be motorized, cavalry, artillery, etc, etc, depending of course on army focus, tech, industry, or what not. I'm sure most of us will have a fairly small motorized section and given the rough terrain on my borders I for one will still retain a fairly large cavalry force.

[K. A. Pital]

"Uselessness of cavalry"? *laughs* Someone will be taught a harsh lesson in World War II, if we ever get to that.

I have questions about the tech level, I qualify for tech level of 3 at both Army and Airforce.

Both my Army and Airforce are relatively obsolete. The Army fields only 1905 to 1918 designs, i.e. WWI or pre-war armored cars, WWI tanks in low numbers, the 1914 Mendeleev design and 1918 Russian Renault copy. The Airforce fields mostly WWI planes (bomber - Ilya Muromets, flying boats the M-24s, etc.) and those of it's planes which are newer (I-1, TB-1, Fokker D.XI, R-1) are either (1) prototypes in singular numbers, I-1 and TB-1 (2) bought abroad, the Fokker D.XI, or (3) licensed copies of foreign designs, the R-1 beind a pretty straightforward Dehavilland copy.

It is also under-strength relative to limits available for AF 3. Same for the Army, it's very un-mechanized relative to it's strength (however, it does field one heavy mechanized unit, a "Land Armada" which unites most motorized cars and tanks, in an armored force around the size of a pre-war Mechanized Corps, essentially an experimental unit to test the concept of Mechanized Corps) - no "real" mass mech units par se, no concept of their use.

Does that work as a starting point?

And more importantly, does the Tech level determine starting forces one can have only, or will we be stuck with essentially WWI forces for good regardless of the years passing? Not that it matters much for me, I'd still be doing copies of FIAT 3000 in 1928 and only pass to better tanks in the very late 1920s-early 1930s... I'm also sure the airforces of most nations, even the most primitive, in 1925 will have to shed their WWI fighter planes immediately upon entering game, due to frame fatigue and complete obsoletion. Airplanes have a shorter service time before obsoletion than most tanks, and most ships do. Ships can serve for decades, tanks for years, whereas airplanes of WWI were all totally obsolete by the year 1920. By 1925 they are completely obsolete. Bombers may linger for a little more, but the progress will be startling. And even if many people would still historically be mass making WWI or post-war tanks like Fiat 3000 (myself included) until the early 1930s, airforce will be having new designs in 1925 already. A WWI airforce would be completely untenable, both in maintenance angle and frame fatigue angle, already by 1927-1928 and by 1930s completely.

My military TOEs if one would need them:
Navy
Army
Airforce

[Norseman]

For the record my forces will probably look something like this (in rough order of prestige):

4 Divisions of Revolutionary Guards (Mechanised)
2 Divisions of Marines (Fuzileiros Navais)
7 Divisions of Cavalry
2 Armoured Train Brigades
2 Railway Artillery Brigades
10 Artillery Brigades
15 Fortress Brigades
20 Infantry Divisions

Unless this seems too unreasonable for Army Focus 2? Anyone got any thoughts about this?

[Siege]

Let's get this over with... The preliminary draft for the Sultanate:

MILITARY MANPOWER

Mobilization Pool: 9 million
Army Manpower: 4.5 million
Standing Army: 900 thousand
Ready Reserves: 3.6 million

STANDING ARMY
60 divisions x 15,000 troops

Code: Select all

1 Home Army (Egypt & Sinai) 			(6 div) 	(2 corps)
2 Army Group North (Levant) 			(5 div) 	(2 corps)
3 Army Group West (Emirates)  		 (10 div)	(3 corps)
4 Army Group South (Arabia) 			(14 div)	(4 corps)
5 Army Group East (Libya)   			(15 div)	(4 corps)
6 Expeditionary Army (Sudan) 		  (10 div)	(3 corps)

8 Divisions of Al-Fursan al-Hammur (Red Knights) elite guards
13 Infantry Divisions w/ Horse Transport
9 Infantry Divisions w/ Vehicular Transport
20 Cavalry Divisions
10 Divisions of random crap (armored brigades, artillery brigades, Fida'iyun battalions, whatever)

MILITARY CAPABILITY SCORES

ARMY
IND 4
ECO 3
ARM 5
----12

Interbellum period weapons, organization, and training. Tankettes, armored cars, and newer medium tanks available, modern artillery, air-cooled machine guns (M2 Browning). Combined Army-Ind-Econ score of 12, all scores must be at least 3

AIR FORCE
IND 4
ECO 3
AIR 4
----11

WWI level aircraft. Fighter planes (Sopwith Camel, Vickers F.B.5, Fokker E.I, etc.) and earliest bombers. Combined Air-Industry-Economy score of 9, all scores must be at least 1.

[Presumably mixed with token lvl 4 aircraft.]

[Thanas]

Steve, I'll try to post my points this evening, but as I said earlier on, I do not have regular internet access at the moment so that may fall through.

Regards,
Thanas

[Steve]

Understood. I won't penalize you if you can't post it just yet.

*quickly hides territory carving knife, smiles widely*

(Just kidding of course. I know better than to provoke Germans. I might get visited by a Panzerkampfwagen or three. )

Sorry, in a good mood this morning I guess, I'm getting jokey.

[Steve]

My intent is that countries with Army Tech Level of 4 can have as many mechanized/motorized infantry divisions as they do industrial points from the generation system. If your Industry is 3, you have 3 divisions. If 4, you have 4.

Stas, I'll let you have that unit.

Note I'm using the terms "mechanized" and "motorized" interchangeably to an extent, I know there's something of a difference between the two - IIRC mechanized units generally had armored infantry carriers like half-tracks more than trucks - but for now trucks are the main thing around, tracked infantry carriers being something some armies may be thinking about. Unless I'm hideously wrong about the history of AFVs. Then I will adjust terminology accordingly.

I suppose I could differentiate by saying a Motorized Infantry Division has three infantry brigades with vehicular transport, armored recon battalion optional, while a mechanized division would be two such infantry brigades with an armored brigade. What does everyone think of that?

Also, I imagine Army Tech of 4 would imply the Army has things like some of the post WWI-guns like the M2 Browning in production. Not all units might be outfitted with it, granted, but they'd exist in your TO&E. As with Air Force tech shows the kind of aircraft your country is producing. Level 3 countries have WWI aircraft, not just in service but in production. Newer aircraft must be developed.

[Siege]

Sultanate Aircraft:

Capability Score: 3 (11 points IND/ECO/AIR)
Focus 4: 480 aircraft

12 Airship Carriers (each carrying 4 fighters)
---
120

65 Fokker D.VII (fighter)
31 Nieuport-Delage 29C-1 (fighter)
25 Avia BH-21 (fighter)
101 Gloster Grebe (fighter)
---
222

27 Airco DH.9J (day bomber)
87 Ansaldo A.300/4 (light bomber)
15 Breguet 19 (light bomber/reconnaissance)
9 Handley Page V/1500 (heavy bomber)
---
138

The actual aircraft of the Sultanate Air Corps (SAC! ) are named differently and indeginously built, but for the purposes of this OOB business you may consider them clones of the aforementioned real-life designs.

Sultanate Warfleet:

7 battleships
- 4 Great Sultan class (German Baden class)
- 3 (real-life Queen Elizabeth class)

8 heavy cruisers
- 4 Suez class (real-life Furutaka class)
- 4 Kuwait class (improved Hawkins class)

11 light cruisers
- 6 (real-life C-class [Ceres])
- 5 (real-life C-class [Carlisle])

14 monitors (improved Erebus class)

30 destroyers
- 10 (real-life Thornycroft class)
- 20 (real-life V and W class)

13 submarines (real life M-class)

[Ryan Thunder]

IIRC, the difference is that motorized troops get around in trucks and only use them to get to the battlefield, while mechanized troops get around in APCs or IFVs and use them to transport troops around the battlefield as well.

[Steve]

Is your NF 2 or 3 again? Because that many battleships and heavy cruisers doesn't sound right for an NF 2 with just 300,000T of ships.

Oh, and since people want to know how many armored/motorized units you can have....

If you are Army tech level of 4, then starting out you can have 3 infantry-motorized brigades, 3 armored recon battalions, and 1 armored brigade for every industry score point (As in, having a 3 in Industry means 9 infantry-motor brigades and 3 armored brigades). You can organize them as you wish, save that armored divisions - 2 armor brigades and an infantry brigade - are not yet allowed beyond one single testing unit (like Stas'). If your army tech level is 3, then you can have 1 armored brigade for every two industry points, rounding up at the top (Industry 2 needed for at least one, Industry 4 for two, and Industry 5 gives three). I'm not yet prepared to limit artillery brigades at tech levels above 1.

Final system for shipbuilding will be done later, I need food now....

[Steve]

IIRC, the difference is that motorized troops get around in trucks and only use them to get to the battlefield, while mechanized troops get around in APCs or IFVs and use them to transport troops around the battlefield as well.

That's the distinction today, but back in the 20s APCs and IFVs were still brand new, if they existed at all. Will look at Wiki later.

[K. A. Pital]

Stas, I'll let you have that unit.

Motorized/tank divisions don't even yet exist as military units in my Army, hence I'm really at a huge disadvantage here. I'll only get them pass 1929, and then start forming basic use principles come 1932.

I know there's something of a difference between the two - IIRC mechanized units generally had armored infantry carriers like half-tracks more than trucks - but for now trucks are the main thing around, tracked infantry carriers being something some armies may be thinking about.

You are correct. WWI experience has not yet lead to the development of the infantry carrier (APC).

I suppose I could differentiate by saying a Motorized Infantry Division has three infantry brigades with vehicular transport, armored recon battalion optional, while a mechanized division would be two such infantry brigades with an armored brigade. What does everyone think of that?

I don't know. To be fair, the 1920s are when the theory of armored units (tank and mechanized battalions, divsions, regiments, armies etc.) was very poorly developed. I'm not sure you could speak of a tank division in the modern (WWII and post-WWII sense)...

As with Air Force tech shows the kind of aircraft your country is producing. Level 3 countries have WWI aircraft, not just in service but in production. Newer aircraft must be developed.

Can it be bought? And how much does development of a new craft cost in terms of IPs? What if I buy and reverse-engineer someone's craft, how much does that cost?

P.S. And let me just note that to my knowledge, NO WWI aircraft remained in production in 1925 anywhere in the world. WWI and 1918-1925 were a colossal leap in engine power, speed and endurance that IIRC no nation produced WWI aircraft in 1925. Fielding them was a matter of reserve, but producing? God forbid.