Dresden Files vs X-Files.

[PainRack]

How would Harry have known how hard it would have been to perform then? I don't remember Storm Front too well, but I remember him immediately studying the scene and saying to Murphy "Holy shit this would be impossible". If it varies on distance, how would he have known how far away the suspect was when he committed the murder to make the judgement?

Its more of which method of magic was used. Evocation was ruled out because nobody noticed the murderer and so forth, so that left thaumaturgy. That needed a lot of energy.

It was only after he went back and ran the equations that he emerged with "it was impossible for a single practitioner".

The Dresden Files supernatural elements are more consistent and more verifiable (Hey, lets summon a gust of wind in a closed room!) than most of the elements in the X-files (MAYBE something APPEARS to be supernatural). Harry's also a lot more open about what he does. Odds are, Mulder walks away from the situation (assuming he survives the situation) with an arm full of pamphlets and Dresden's number on speed dial.

It was only after the Loop garou raged through the police station that Harry Dresden decided to share more information about magic with Murphy and with other people . While Harry was living in the open and did want to "enlighten" people about magic..... with titles like why witches don't float suggest that the information wasn't really THAT secretive. Billy would not even Spoiler

learn about the supernatural world until Turncoat. Although the exact scale of the werewolves ignorance is arguable.

Hell. Murphy herself never witnessed Dresden performing magic until Spoiler

the war between Winter and Summer.

It seems that old habits die hard, although its mixed up with Harry sense of chivalry here. That or just simply being way too busy to update everyone.

[Xon]

Hey, lets summon a gust of wind in a closed room!)

Pff, I'm sure Scully would find someway to rationalize it away.

[Gaidin]

Of course. That's one of the defining traits of the Dresden Files. Humans that don't want to believe in magic have a distinct tendency and instinct to justify the event away.

[Xon]

Of course. That's one of the defining traits of the Dresden Files. Humans that don't want to believe in magic have a distinct tendency and instinct to justify the event away.

There is justifying something which is easily explainable and not directly observed and then there is blatent eyes-closed, fingers-in-ears refusing to believe that is infront of you.

Even the most normal humans in Dresden Files will tend to acknowledge that wierd shit exists if it happens. It is just they don't do anything with that knowledge.

[Gaidin]

There is justifying something which is easily explainable and not directly observed and then there is blatent eyes-closed, fingers-in-ears refusing to believe that is infront of you.

Even the most normal humans in Dresden Files will tend to acknowledge that wierd shit exists if it happens. It is just they don't do anything with that knowledge.

I'm not sure Scully would be as bad as everyone else though. She'd be like Murphy(or maybe her people more than her) at the beginning of the series. Something along the lines of "oh god i cant believe I'm listening to this guy...even if he points us in the right direction". It's not like she's inexperienced with weird stuff as she meets Dresden. Skeptic sure, but more like Carmichael, grumbling about it as opposed to the people who think Dresden's a *total* waste of money.

[MKSheppard]

At some point in this crossover the following must happen:

1.) Mulder must shout "FEDERAL AGENT!"

2.) Mulder must get his gun knocked out of his hand.

[PainRack]

There are some interesting things with regards to a crossover though. Mulder own conspiracy could mesh very well with Dresden hidden enemies.Spoiler

Imagine the Black Council with the Cigeratte Smoking Man

[Serafine666]

There are some interesting things with regards to a crossover though. Mulder own conspiracy could mesh very well with Dresden hidden enemies.

Given. I was always mildly surprised that McCoy Spoiler

the Council's Blackstaff hitman

didn't try out the satellite bomb idea on the Black Council Spoiler

after Harry's private eye source mentioned to him that it seemed like some of the Black Council was based in Cairo

.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Given. I was always mildly surprised that McCoy Spoiler

the Council's Blackstaff hitman

didn't try out the satellite bomb idea on the Black Council Spoiler

after Harry's private eye source mentioned to him that it seemed like some of the Black Council was based in Cairo

.

Spoiler

Worries about collateral damage? A lot more people will die in a city than died from the strike on that vampire's estates. Especially if he doesn't have any more precise location than "somewhere in Cairo". And then there's the question of whether you want to blow up a lead instead of following it.

[Bakustra]

Given. I was always mildly surprised that McCoy Spoiler

the Council's Blackstaff hitman

didn't try out the satellite bomb idea on the Black Council Spoiler

after Harry's private eye source mentioned to him that it seemed like some of the Black Council was based in Cairo

.

Spoiler

Worries about collateral damage? A lot more people will die in a city than died from the strike on that vampire's estates. Especially if he doesn't have any more precise location than "somewhere in Cairo". And then there's the question of whether you want to blow up a lead instead of following it.

Also, Spoiler

Ortega quite likely lacked any magical abilities, or at the least was weaker than Harry, seeing as he refused the choice of magic in the duel. For that matter, the Red Court seem to be on the low end magic-wise, as they had to bring in a Black Court member to train Bianca instead of one of their own wizards. It's quite possible that the Black Council could defend themselves against an orbital strike. For that matter, McCoy knew the orbit of the satellite from the astronomy logbooks he and Dresden made. He probably couldn't have done it with any old satellite.

[Serafine666]

Also, Spoiler

Ortega quite likely lacked any magical abilities, or at the least was weaker than Harry, seeing as he refused the choice of magic in the duel. For that matter, the Red Court seem to be on the low end magic-wise, as they had to bring in a Black Court member to train Bianca instead of one of their own wizards. It's quite possible that the Black Council could defend themselves against an orbital strike. For that matter, McCoy knew the orbit of the satellite from the astronomy logbooks he and Dresden made. He probably couldn't have done it with any old satellite.

That is indeed possible but Harry has also commented that wizards can sling around some horrific power--if they prepare carefully. In every instance where Harry is depicted as throwing some really massive magical weight, it's always because he spent months ("Little Chicago") or some other serious unit of time preparing for it (i.e. charging his kinetic rings with a punching bag). He also commented that many things incapable of taking on a wizard in a slugfest can beat down a pretty powerful wizard by getting the jump on them before they can chant their spell or pull out a blasting rod or even before the wizard knows to be prepared for trouble. Obviously, disgustingly powerful wizards can regain the upper hand pretty quick even if surprised but there are precious few ways to prepare for a big heavy object falling out of the sky and squishing you. I think your thought about the Black Council being too dispersed or Lord of the Abyss' point about a desire to use them as a lead probably trumps being unable to pull it off because the targets would be prepared; it is unclear that the well-being of innocents means more to the White Council than whacking their opposition.

[Bakustra]

Also, Spoiler

Ortega quite likely lacked any magical abilities, or at the least was weaker than Harry, seeing as he refused the choice of magic in the duel. For that matter, the Red Court seem to be on the low end magic-wise, as they had to bring in a Black Court member to train Bianca instead of one of their own wizards. It's quite possible that the Black Council could defend themselves against an orbital strike. For that matter, McCoy knew the orbit of the satellite from the astronomy logbooks he and Dresden made. He probably couldn't have done it with any old satellite.

That is indeed possible but Harry has also commented that wizards can sling around some horrific power--if they prepare carefully. In every instance where Harry is depicted as throwing some really massive magical weight, it's always because he spent months ("Little Chicago") or some other serious unit of time preparing for it (i.e. charging his kinetic rings with a punching bag). He also commented that many things incapable of taking on a wizard in a slugfest can beat down a pretty powerful wizard by getting the jump on them before they can chant their spell or pull out a blasting rod or even before the wizard knows to be prepared for trouble. Obviously, disgustingly powerful wizards can regain the upper hand pretty quick even if surprised but there are precious few ways to prepare for a big heavy object falling out of the sky and squishing you. I think your thought about the Black Council being too dispersed or Lord of the Abyss' point about a desire to use them as a lead probably trumps being unable to pull it off because the targets would be prepared; it is unclear that the well-being of innocents means more to the White Council than whacking their opposition.

Your point is taken, but I didn't make the point about dispersion. Anyway, my point Spoiler

isn't too different from yours. I pointed out that McCoy had to prepare, presumably to precision-guide the satellite. Anyways, agreed on the White Council being willing to squash surrounding innocents. I, personally, doubt that the Black Council even has a set HQ like the White Council does for Edinburgh. I think they probably have individual residences for the members, but that's just because we've seen only two confirmed Black Council members, one of whom may be dead.

Anyways, as long as we're talking about Dresden Files in general, Spoiler

[rant]I'm curious as to how the Denarians maintain a position as part of the Unseelie Accords. They regularly disregard them blatantly, generally act in such a way as to draw more attention to the supernatural, and attempt to murder millions of people through magic. Why hasn't the White Council placed kill-on-sight orders for them? Is it impossible to kick somebody out of the accords once they're in? (If so, then why does anybody care about breaking the accords, if they're meaningless?) It's not as though the typical Denarian is that formidable, whining from TVTropes about downgrading aside. We see the White Council enforcing the law on a number of ordinary people. Do they simply consider their jurisdiction to not include the Denarians? For that matter, why does the Church keep the coins instead of welding them in a steel block, or dumping them in an abyssal region, or for that matter, getting them aboard a rocket to geosynch? This is without considering the possibility of melting the coins down, which, granted, is probably unlikely to work, but you'd think somebody would try, at least.

(Please spoilerize for the benefit of the OP.)

[Molyneux]

Anyways, as long as we're talking about Dresden Files in general, Spoiler

[rant]I'm curious as to how the Denarians maintain a position as part of the Unseelie Accords. They regularly disregard them blatantly, generally act in such a way as to draw more attention to the supernatural, and attempt to murder millions of people through magic. Why hasn't the White Council placed kill-on-sight orders for them? Is it impossible to kick somebody out of the accords once they're in? (If so, then why does anybody care about breaking the accords, if they're meaningless?) It's not as though the typical Denarian is that formidable, whining from TVTropes about downgrading aside. We see the White Council enforcing the law on a number of ordinary people. Do they simply consider their jurisdiction to not include the Denarians? For that matter, why does the Church keep the coins instead of welding them in a steel block, or dumping them in an abyssal region, or for that matter, getting them aboard a rocket to geosynch? This is without considering the possibility of melting the coins down, which, granted, is probably unlikely to work, but you'd think somebody would try, at least.

(Please spoilerize for the benefit of the OP.)

My bet is that Spoiler

It's a combination of a) they're very slow to remove anyone from the Accords, b) the Denarians have followed the Accords before when it suited their purposes, and c) Everyone's too terrified of them to say otherwise.

As for the coins - I believe it's explicitly stated that they have a One Ring-esque talent for getting "found" if they're chucked somewhere. It's most likely better to have them under near-incorruptible constant supervision than to just throw them away somewhere, even inside a block of concrete, and hope for the best.

[Bakustra]

Anyways, as long as we're talking about Dresden Files in general, Spoiler

[rant]I'm curious as to how the Denarians maintain a position as part of the Unseelie Accords. They regularly disregard them blatantly, generally act in such a way as to draw more attention to the supernatural, and attempt to murder millions of people through magic. Why hasn't the White Council placed kill-on-sight orders for them? Is it impossible to kick somebody out of the accords once they're in? (If so, then why does anybody care about breaking the accords, if they're meaningless?) It's not as though the typical Denarian is that formidable, whining from TVTropes about downgrading aside. We see the White Council enforcing the law on a number of ordinary people. Do they simply consider their jurisdiction to not include the Denarians? For that matter, why does the Church keep the coins instead of welding them in a steel block, or dumping them in an abyssal region, or for that matter, getting them aboard a rocket to geosynch? This is without considering the possibility of melting the coins down, which, granted, is probably unlikely to work, but you'd think somebody would try, at least.

(Please spoilerize for the benefit of the OP.)

My bet is that Spoiler

It's a combination of a) they're very slow to remove anyone from the Accords, b) the Denarians have followed the Accords before when it suited their purposes, and c) Everyone's too terrified of them to say otherwise.

As for the coins - I believe it's explicitly stated that they have a One Ring-esque talent for getting "found" if they're chucked somewhere. It's most likely better to have them under near-incorruptible constant supervision than to just throw them away somewhere, even inside a block of concrete, and hope for the best.

Okay, but Spoiler

a) That's not really a compelling reason to keep them on. b)They're not that formidable. The White Council prior to Dead Beat could have massacred them, which is what my point about kill-on-sight orders was about. They're only really dangerous, apart from Nicodemus and Tessa, when they're getting a boost from the other Fallen. Point a) of yours is a good point, though.

The problem with your supposition is that the Church acts like a sieve when it comes to the coins. They're hardly incorruptible. Furthermore, they can't teleport, and they can't influence somebody as long as they don't make skin contact. Simply seal the box shut before handing it to the oceanographer/astronaut. Dropping them at the bottom of the Marianas Trench or shooting 'em into space wouldn't be any worse than letting the church have them, given their record against Denarian corruption. For that matter, destroying the coins, though it would likely liberate the Fallen, would still reduce their ability to affect the world. Even if you can't/don't want to destroy them/put them out of reach, you can still take steps to severely reduce their usefulness, like irradiating them, which even if it doesn't kill the wannabe Denarian, should weaken the Fallen within the coin as they're forced to use energy to negate the effects of radiation poisoning. Or you could put them in a platinum block that would take thousands of people to lift. The Denarians aren't strong enough to move that. Or make it an osmium block. Even heavier, plus poisoning them if they melt it or try to take it apart.

[The Grim Squeaker]

My bet is that Spoiler

It's a combination of a) they're very slow to remove anyone from the Accords, b) the Denarians have followed the Accords before when it suited their purposes, and c) Everyone's too terrified of them to say otherwise.

As for the coins - I believe it's explicitly stated that they have a One Ring-esque talent for getting "found" if they're chucked somewhere. It's most likely better to have them under near-incorruptible constant supervision than to just throw them away somewhere, even inside a block of concrete, and hope for the best.

[/quote]
Most likely the latter. Each of the Denarians is a heavy hitter, something capable of making 3-4 of them work together is exceptional, provoking the group as a whole is not something you want to do, even if they could be overwhelmed, they could do an immense amount of damage to anyone fighting them. In other words, it's not worth it when there are so many other supernatural groups looking for weakness (vampires, Fey, etc').

[Bakustra]

My bet is that Spoiler

It's a combination of a) they're very slow to remove anyone from the Accords, b) the Denarians have followed the Accords before when it suited their purposes, and c) Everyone's too terrified of them to say otherwise.

As for the coins - I believe it's explicitly stated that they have a One Ring-esque talent for getting "found" if they're chucked somewhere. It's most likely better to have them under near-incorruptible constant supervision than to just throw them away somewhere, even inside a block of concrete, and hope for the best.

Most likely the latter. Each of the Denarians is a heavy hitter, something capable of making 3-4 of them work together is exceptional, provoking the group as a whole is not something you want to do, even if they could be overwhelmed, they could do an immense amount of damage to anyone fighting them. In other words, it's not worth it when there are so many other supernatural groups looking for weakness (vampires, Fey, etc').

And yet Spoiler

In Small Favor, Harry is able to manhandle Thorned Namshiel, who was their big-time sorceror, with ease. The Denarians lost almost twenty of their number fighting against Harry, the Archive and two Knights of the Cross. Nicodemus and Tessa might be dangerous, but the average Denarian seems to be a bit of a putz, closer to Cassius than to Nicodemus or Ursiel. Keep in mind that Susan was roughly equal to Deirdre in hand-to-hand in Death Masks. Furthermore, the only thing that really makes Nicodemus formidable is the noose. Apart from that, all we've seen him do (supernaturally) is manipulate his shadow to attack people. They needed a boost from Satan/ the other Fallen to pull off the more powerful sorcery in Small Favour Keep in mind they had nineteen available for Small Favor and managed to kill most of them. The only confirmed survivors are Roseanne, Tessa, Deirdre, and Thorned Namshiel. Nicodemus may have survived, and Namshiel got away with eight other coins, but they still lost fourteen members for one incapacitated Knight of the Cross.

Further, why do you presume that the vampires and fey would support the Denarians? It seems much more likely that the vamps would actually work with the wizards to exterminate them. Their shenanigans increase the chance of somebody drawing attention to the supernatural. Their goals of spreading chaos directly counter the long-term goals of the Red and White Courts to establish control over large parts of the world. The Fey have no reason to shield them, but no real reason to fight against them a priori (although a Denarian was part of an attack on Arctis Tor) either. The Knights of the Cross won't necessarily support an effort to wipe them out, but they won't protect them either. The only group that might shield them would be the Black Council, and that's only if Tessa is influential enough to convince the Council to help.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Spoiler

My bet is that Spoiler

It's a combination of a) they're very slow to remove anyone from the Accords, b) the Denarians have followed the Accords before when it suited their purposes, and c) Everyone's too terrified of them to say otherwise.

As for the coins - I believe it's explicitly stated that they have a One Ring-esque talent for getting "found" if they're chucked somewhere. It's most likely better to have them under near-incorruptible constant supervision than to just throw them away somewhere, even inside a block of concrete, and hope for the best.

Most likely the latter. Each of the Denarians is a heavy hitter, something capable of making 3-4 of them work together is exceptional, provoking the group as a whole is not something you want to do, even if they could be overwhelmed, they could do an immense amount of damage to anyone fighting them. In other words, it's not worth it when there are so many other supernatural groups looking for weakness (vampires, Fey, etc').

And yet Spoiler

In Small Favor, Harry is able to manhandle Thorned Namshiel, who was their big-time sorceror, with ease. The Denarians lost almost twenty of their number fighting against Harry, the Archive and two Knights of the Cross.

The archive is arguably the most powerful magic user in the world, and the trap didn't weaken her, just kept her from escaping or regenerating her "reserves".

Nicodemus and Tessa might be dangerous, but the average Denarian seems to be a bit of a putz, closer to Cassius than to Nicodemus or Ursiel. Keep in mind that Susan was roughly equal to Deirdre in hand-to-hand in Death Masks. Furthermore, the only thing that really makes Nicodemus formidable is the noose. Apart from that, all we've seen him do (supernaturally) is manipulate his shadow to attack people. They needed a boost from Satan/ the other Fallen to pull off the more powerful sorcery in Small Favour Keep in mind they had nineteen available for Small Favor and managed to kill most of them. The only confirmed survivors are Roseanne, Tessa, Deirdre, and Thorned Namshiel. Nicodemus may have survived, and Namshiel got away with eight other coins, but they still lost fourteen members for one incapacitated Knight of the Cross.

I don't remember anything from the book (it's been a good few years since I read it), so i'll conceed on that point.

Further, why do you presume that the vampires and fey would support the Denarians?

I didn't say support .
Anyone focusing on any relatively major opposing magical group risks opportunistic attacks from other groups - look at the white council shitting their pants at the idea of a two front war with the Unseelie court or the Black court (Black vampires, whatever they're called).
Being able to squash one opponent, doesn't mean that you'd want to if it means that someone more evenly matched sees this as giving them an edge.

[Bakustra]

Spoiler

I didn't say support .
Anyone focusing on any relatively major opposing magical group risks opportunistic attacks from other groups - look at the white council shitting their pants at the idea of a two front war with the Unseelie court or the Black court (Black vampires, whatever they're called).
Being able to squash one opponent, doesn't mean that you'd want to if it means that someone more evenly matched sees this as giving them an edge.

Whoa, those quotes were mangled.Spoiler

Anyway, my point was that there are good reasons why a number of the heavy hitters would want to take out the Denarians, and nobody who can openly protect them. Granted, nobody would be willing to do so, since it's not like the wizards and the vamps get along, but theoretically any one of these groups could take on the Denarians alone and wipe them out. Of course, they prefer to hide, but if they become too dangerous, they'll likely get crushed. My point was more along the lines of why they're still considered a signatory to the accords when they have been known to blatantly and regularly ignore the accords in the past.

[Serafine666]

And yet Spoiler

In Small Favor, Harry is able to manhandle Thorned Namshiel, who was their big-time sorceror, with ease. The Denarians lost almost twenty of their number fighting against Harry, the Archive and two Knights of the Cross. Nicodemus and Tessa might be dangerous, but the average Denarian seems to be a bit of a putz, closer to Cassius than to Nicodemus or Ursiel. Keep in mind that Susan was roughly equal to Deirdre in hand-to-hand in Death Masks. Furthermore, the only thing that really makes Nicodemus formidable is the noose. Apart from that, all we've seen him do (supernaturally) is manipulate his shadow to attack people. They needed a boost from Satan/ the other Fallen to pull off the more powerful sorcery in Small Favour Keep in mind they had nineteen available for Small Favor and managed to kill most of them. The only confirmed survivors are Roseanne, Tessa, Deirdre, and Thorned Namshiel. Nicodemus may have survived, and Namshiel got away with eight other coins, but they still lost fourteen members for one incapacitated Knight of the Cross.

Spoiler

It's worth noting that the only reason Thorned Namshiel could be slapped down by Harry is that Uriel stepped in to bitchslap Namshiel without directly doing so (as Mab makes clear when she talks to Harry in the hospital chapel) by imbuing Harry with soulfire. When Harry wasn't using soulfire, Namshiel was able to eat his spells and despite being crippled to all heck, still simultaneously pickpocket and strangle Harry with his freaky wire things.
As to what makes Nicodemus formidable, his invulnerability is certainly good but it would seem that he's the longest-lived "nickelhead" (if you're going Biblical with the 30 pieces of silver, it seems reasonable to think that the Nicodemus in the Bible is the Nicodemus in the Dresden Files) for one big reason: he's the brains of the operation. Lartessa has some level of animal cunning although thinks in terms of short-term gain and brute force and all the rest of them seem to operate on muscle power alone. It might have been extremely interesting to see how Laschiel operates when fully manifested because she comes off as pretty quick on the uptake but alas, we'll probably never know where her place in the hierarchy is.

Spoiler

Further, why do you presume that the vampires and fey would support the Denarians? It seems much more likely that the vamps would actually work with the wizards to exterminate them. Their shenanigans increase the chance of somebody drawing attention to the supernatural. Their goals of spreading chaos directly counter the long-term goals of the Red and White Courts to establish control over large parts of the world. The Fey have no reason to shield them, but no real reason to fight against them a priori (although a Denarian was part of an attack on Arctis Tor) either. The Knights of the Cross won't necessarily support an effort to wipe them out, but they won't protect them either. The only group that might shield them would be the Black Council, and that's only if Tessa is influential enough to convince the Council to help.

Good point, Bakustra. Nicodemus himself commented to Harry that he regards vampires as an inconvenience to be destroyed which, despite Nicodemus' considerable talent with deception, comes off as his honest opinion. I don't really see the Black Council supporting the Denarians either except as a direct prelude to betrayal. That's always fun to watch: two enemies working together with the mutual intention of betrayal and the mutual acknowledgement of that intention. A good author (which Butcher is) can do some great things with that.

[Serafine666]

Whoa, those quotes were mangled.Spoiler

Anyway, my point was that there are good reasons why a number of the heavy hitters would want to take out the Denarians, and nobody who can openly protect them. Granted, nobody would be willing to do so, since it's not like the wizards and the vamps get along, but theoretically any one of these groups could take on the Denarians alone and wipe them out. Of course, they prefer to hide, but if they become too dangerous, they'll likely get crushed. My point was more along the lines of why they're still considered a signatory to the accords when they have been known to blatantly and regularly ignore the accords in the past.

Spoiler

My personal theory is that the Denarians have at least a few supporters among the signatories (or someone outside the signatories that has major weight) that approve of their on-again-off-again respect for the Accords and are big enough on the power scale that no one wants to raise any serious questions.

[Bakustra]

Whoa, those quotes were mangled.Spoiler

Anyway, my point was that there are good reasons why a number of the heavy hitters would want to take out the Denarians, and nobody who can openly protect them. Granted, nobody would be willing to do so, since it's not like the wizards and the vamps get along, but theoretically any one of these groups could take on the Denarians alone and wipe them out. Of course, they prefer to hide, but if they become too dangerous, they'll likely get crushed. My point was more along the lines of why they're still considered a signatory to the accords when they have been known to blatantly and regularly ignore the accords in the past.

Spoiler

My personal theory is that the Denarians have at least a few supporters among the signatories (or someone outside the signatories that has major weight) that approve of their on-again-off-again respect for the Accords and are big enough on the power scale that no one wants to raise any serious questions.

Spoiler

Alternatively, they're too small for anybody to really care about them. Both Red and White Courts have massive numbers, the Black Court could take the Fairy Queens in a fight, and the White Council has at least a thousand members and is isolationist. The Fey seem to prefer remaining hands-off from these matters as well.

And yet Spoiler

In Small Favor, Harry is able to manhandle Thorned Namshiel, who was their big-time sorceror, with ease. The Denarians lost almost twenty of their number fighting against Harry, the Archive and two Knights of the Cross. Nicodemus and Tessa might be dangerous, but the average Denarian seems to be a bit of a putz, closer to Cassius than to Nicodemus or Ursiel. Keep in mind that Susan was roughly equal to Deirdre in hand-to-hand in Death Masks. Furthermore, the only thing that really makes Nicodemus formidable is the noose. Apart from that, all we've seen him do (supernaturally) is manipulate his shadow to attack people. They needed a boost from Satan/ the other Fallen to pull off the more powerful sorcery in Small Favour Keep in mind they had nineteen available for Small Favor and managed to kill most of them. The only confirmed survivors are Roseanne, Tessa, Deirdre, and Thorned Namshiel. Nicodemus may have survived, and Namshiel got away with eight other coins, but they still lost fourteen members for one incapacitated Knight of the Cross.

Spoiler

It's worth noting that the only reason Thorned Namshiel could be slapped down by Harry is that Uriel stepped in to bitchslap Namshiel without directly doing so (as Mab makes clear when she talks to Harry in the hospital chapel) by imbuing Harry with soulfire. When Harry wasn't using soulfire, Namshiel was able to eat his spells and despite being crippled to all heck, still simultaneously pickpocket and strangle Harry with his freaky wire things.
As to what makes Nicodemus formidable, his invulnerability is certainly good but it would seem that he's the longest-lived "nickelhead" (if you're going Biblical with the 30 pieces of silver, it seems reasonable to think that the Nicodemus in the Bible is the Nicodemus in the Dresden Files) for one big reason: he's the brains of the operation. Lartessa has some level of animal cunning although thinks in terms of short-term gain and brute force and all the rest of them seem to operate on muscle power alone. It might have been extremely interesting to see how Laschiel operates when fully manifested because she comes off as pretty quick on the uptake but alas, we'll probably never know where her place in the hierarchy is.

Spoiler

Further, why do you presume that the vampires and fey would support the Denarians? It seems much more likely that the vamps would actually work with the wizards to exterminate them. Their shenanigans increase the chance of somebody drawing attention to the supernatural. Their goals of spreading chaos directly counter the long-term goals of the Red and White Courts to establish control over large parts of the world. The Fey have no reason to shield them, but no real reason to fight against them a priori (although a Denarian was part of an attack on Arctis Tor) either. The Knights of the Cross won't necessarily support an effort to wipe them out, but they won't protect them either. The only group that might shield them would be the Black Council, and that's only if Tessa is influential enough to convince the Council to help.

Good point, Bakustra. Nicodemus himself commented to Harry that he regards vampires as an inconvenience to be destroyed which, despite Nicodemus' considerable talent with deception, comes off as his honest opinion. I don't really see the Black Council supporting the Denarians either except as a direct prelude to betrayal. That's always fun to watch: two enemies working together with the mutual intention of betrayal and the mutual acknowledgement of that intention. A good author (which Butcher is) can do some great things with that.

Spoiler

I forgot about the Soulfire, but the Soulfire doesn't jack him up an order of magnitude, either. Namshiel is at the upper end of the totem pole anyways, and if Harry and him are fairly evenly matched, then that does not speak well for Denarians vs. Wardens. Nicodemus is formidable, frankly because he's difficult to hurt in any way. Lord Raith was about as tough to harm, but he had a weakness through Lara. I remembered Nicodemus being the one to perform the plague ritual, or else I'd have argued that somebody like Mavra could sneak in under a veil and choke him to death before he knew what was happening, but if he has magical talent, that becomes a lot less clear. As for Lasciel, I honestly think she'd be about equal with Anduriel, mainly because, if "Lash" is an accurate reflection of the real Lasciel, then they both seem to be evil, but highly intelligent. Granted, Anduriel lucked into a cooperative and malevolent host, while Lasciel had to do the "One Ring" shtick to try and convince Harry. Finally, it would be great to see the Denarians/Black Council, but I'm of the opinion that Nicodemus is dead, or if he isn't, he should die in the next Denarian-focused book.

[Serafine666]

Spoiler

Alternatively, they're too small for anybody to really care about them. Both Red and White Courts have massive numbers, the Black Court could take the Fairy Queens in a fight, and the White Council has at least a thousand members and is isolationist. The Fey seem to prefer remaining hands-off from these matters as well.

Spoiler

Yeah, that makes sense. After all, one of Titania's enforcers can whack a Denarian without much trouble which sort of gives you a scale for how powerful some of the other signatories are. The Archive, for example, is at least as powerful as Eldest Gruff since both can apparently blow away a Denarian with a gesture (although the Archive can do it without free access to magical power).

And yet Spoiler

In Small Favor, Harry is able to manhandle Thorned Namshiel, who was their big-time sorceror, with ease. The Denarians lost almost twenty of their number fighting against Harry, the Archive and two Knights of the Cross. Nicodemus and Tessa might be dangerous, but the average Denarian seems to be a bit of a putz, closer to Cassius than to Nicodemus or Ursiel. Keep in mind that Susan was roughly equal to Deirdre in hand-to-hand in Death Masks. Furthermore, the only thing that really makes Nicodemus formidable is the noose. Apart from that, all we've seen him do (supernaturally) is manipulate his shadow to attack people. They needed a boost from Satan/ the other Fallen to pull off the more powerful sorcery in Small Favour Keep in mind they had nineteen available for Small Favor and managed to kill most of them. The only confirmed survivors are Roseanne, Tessa, Deirdre, and Thorned Namshiel. Nicodemus may have survived, and Namshiel got away with eight other coins, but they still lost fourteen members for one incapacitated Knight of the Cross.

Spoiler

It's worth noting that the only reason Thorned Namshiel could be slapped down by Harry is that Uriel stepped in to bitchslap Namshiel without directly doing so (as Mab makes clear when she talks to Harry in the hospital chapel) by imbuing Harry with soulfire. When Harry wasn't using soulfire, Namshiel was able to eat his spells and despite being crippled to all heck, still simultaneously pickpocket and strangle Harry with his freaky wire things.
As to what makes Nicodemus formidable, his invulnerability is certainly good but it would seem that he's the longest-lived "nickelhead" (if you're going Biblical with the 30 pieces of silver, it seems reasonable to think that the Nicodemus in the Bible is the Nicodemus in the Dresden Files) for one big reason: he's the brains of the operation. Lartessa has some level of animal cunning although thinks in terms of short-term gain and brute force and all the rest of them seem to operate on muscle power alone. It might have been extremely interesting to see how Laschiel operates when fully manifested because she comes off as pretty quick on the uptake but alas, we'll probably never know where her place in the hierarchy is.

Spoiler

I forgot about the Soulfire, but the Soulfire doesn't jack him up an order of magnitude, either. Namshiel is at the upper end of the totem pole anyways, and if Harry and him are fairly evenly matched, then that does not speak well for Denarians vs. Wardens. Nicodemus is formidable, frankly because he's difficult to hurt in any way. Lord Raith was about as tough to harm, but he had a weakness through Lara. I remembered Nicodemus being the one to perform the plague ritual, or else I'd have argued that somebody like Mavra could sneak in under a veil and choke him to death before he knew what was happening, but if he has magical talent, that becomes a lot less clear. As for Lasciel, I honestly think she'd be about equal with Anduriel, mainly because, if "Lash" is an accurate reflection of the real Lasciel, then they both seem to be evil, but highly intelligent. Granted, Anduriel lucked into a cooperative and malevolent host, while Lasciel had to do the "One Ring" shtick to try and convince Harry. Finally, it would be great to see the Denarians/Black Council, but I'm of the opinion that Nicodemus is dead, or if he isn't, he should die in the next Denarian-focused book.

Spoiler

True enough. Might have been fun to see a Denarian dice with Morgan who, on his own, was apparently equal to the biggest hitter in the entire Red Court plus any flunkies the King could throw at him but alas. Yanno, you learn to really hate Morgan but I was sorry to see Butcher kill him off... he was a good foil for Harry when the two were in the same place. On the other hand, Lash tells Harry that he is somehow uniquely capable against for-real demons (like He Who Walks Behind) and we have no reason to think she was lying so Harry may not be a good ruler to use to measure "nickelheads".
Glad you agree about Lasciel... for some strange reason, I grew extremely fond of the character. Then again, I thought that Harry's dark side was a swell guy too so I'm probably just screwed up.
True that. Nicodemus seems to be highly durable, however (it's hard to imagine that he wandered through a couple thousand years with only one guy figuring out that the noose was his one weakness). Besides... the way Butcher wrote the Denarians makes it seem like they'll be reduced to annoyances if he kills off Nicodemus since Nick seems to be the only one with the vision to dice in a serious way with other big players.

[MKSheppard]

So, what happens next?

What happens is just as Mulder and Scully are going to figure out everything with Harry's help, a billion black helicopters show up along with tons of men in black; and they carry off Dresden and anyone else who has been uncovered by Mulder and Skully.

Some wizards try to resist, but they get killed by the MIB's powers. And at the end of the episode; Mulder ends up talking with none other than C.G.B. Spender

"You can kill a man but you can't kill what he stands for. Not unless you first break his spirit. That's a beautiful thing to see. "

[Bakustra]

So, what happens next?

What happens is just as Mulder and Scully are going to figure out everything with Harry's help, a billion black helicopters show up along with tons of men in black; and they carry off Dresden and anyone else who has been uncovered by Mulder and Skully.

Some wizards try to resist, but they get killed by the MIB's powers. And at the end of the episode; Mulder ends up talking with none other than C.G.B. Spender

"You can kill a man but you can't kill what he stands for. Not unless you first break his spirit. That's a beautiful thing to see. "

There aren't too many wizards in Chicago. Dresden's the only one who advertises, and he's not too likely to reveal a whole lot of the supernatural world. There's also been governmental cover-ups involving the supernatural, and they didn't come after any of the participants, preferring to simply remove the evidence. A far more likely scenario: the belts and other paraphrenalia of the rogue agents get taken away from Mulder and destroyed before he can take pictures, leaving Mulder with only his memories and Dresden's phone number.

[Lord of the Abyss]

So, what happens next?

What happens is just as Mulder and Scully are going to figure out everything with Harry's help, a billion black helicopters show up along with tons of men in black; and they carry off Dresden and anyone else who has been uncovered by Mulder and Skully.

Some wizards try to resist, but they get killed by the MIB's powers. And at the end of the episode; Mulder ends up talking with none other than C.G.B. Spender

"You can kill a man but you can't kill what he stands for. Not unless you first break his spirit. That's a beautiful thing to see. "

I have this image of them getting about halfway though this scenario, before Gentleman Johnny Marcone shows up, hands the commanding MiB a cell phone and says "Your boss wants to talk to you, by the way. Oh, and tell him I'll be a bit late for golf tomorrow" and walks out of the scene. And after much MiB hair pulling at the other side of the conversation the assault is called off.