The Hatikvah

[hongi]

So these are the lyrics of Israel's national anthem:

In the Jewish heart
A Jewish spirit still sings,
And the eyes look east
Toward Zion
Our hope is not lost,
Our hope of two thousand years,
To be a free nation in our land,
In the land of Zion and Jerusalem

Are non-Jewish Israelis actually expected to sing the above?

[Rahvin]

...wow.

I mean, I knew that Israel disenfranchised non-Jewish citizens, but this is awful.

Even completely ignoring all of the IvP mess, how can anyone rationally support a nation that openly contains such racist and theocratic features?

[Duckie]

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the answer 'if you aren't jewish, we don't want you'? I'm pretty sure it's very very hard to immigrate and gain Israeli citizenship, if not impossible, as a non-jew.

[Coyote]

Just out of curiosity, have any of you made the slightest effort to see if any other national anthems contain a hint of "this is for us" kind of spirit? I suspect you might find a great number of anthems that have a national identity/homeland/motherland/fatherland/our ancient grounds/kind of ring to it.

"Oh, no, a national anthem speaks of a yearning for an ancient land of past traditions!". Wow. That never happens anywhere else.

[The Grim Squeaker]

We'll sing a song, a soldier's song,
With cheering rousing chorus,
As round our blazing fires we throng,
The starry heavens o'er us;
Impatient for the coming fight,
And as we wait the morning's light,
Here in the silence of the night,
We'll chant a soldier's song.

Chorus:
Soldiers are we
whose lives are pledged to Ireland;
Some have come
from a land beyond the wave.
Sworn to be free,
No more our ancient sire land
Shall shelter the despot or the slave.
Tonight we man the gap of danger
In Erin's cause, come woe or weal
'Mid cannons' roar and rifles peal,
We'll chant a soldier's song.

In valley green, on towering crag,
Our fathers fought before us,
And conquered 'neath the same old flag
That's proudly floating o'er us.
We're children of a fighting race,
That never yet has known disgrace,
And as we march, the foe to face,
We'll chant a soldier's song.

Chorus

Sons of the Gael! Men of the Pale!
The long watched day is breaking;
The serried ranks of Inisfail
Shall set the Tyrant quaking.
Our camp fires now are burning low;
See in the east a silv'ry glow,
Out yonder waits the Saxon foe,
So chant a soldier's song.

Just a random example.

...wow.

I mean, I knew that Israel disenfranchised non-Jewish citizens, but this is awful.

Yeah, I mean non Jewish citizens of Israel.. Have exactly the same rights as everyone else...Hey, wait .

A few more

God of Nations at thy feet
In the bonds of love we meet;
Hear our voices we entreat;
God defend our free land;

Guard Pacific’s triple star;
From the shafts of strife and war;
Make her praises heard afar
God defend New Zealand.

God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen:
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us:
God save the Queen.

O Lord, our God, arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall.
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
God save us all.

Thy choicest gifts in store,
On her be pleased to pour;
Long may she reign:
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice
God save the Queen.

Glory to you, our free Motherland,
Age-old union of fraternal peoples,
Ancestor-given wisdom of the people!
Glory to you, our country! We are proud of you!

From the southern seas to the polar regions
Spread our forests and fields.
You are unique in the world! You alone are like this —
Our dear land kept safe by God!

[MarshalPurnell]

You missed the verse of "God Save the Queen" that calls on divine help to crush rebellious Scots, too.

[Bounty]

Just out of curiosity, have any of you made the slightest effort to see if any other national anthems contain a hint of "this is for us" kind of spirit?

"This is for us" is generally not tied into one specific religion. The worst you get is a generic mention of deities. Talk of a Jewish homeland is understandable for Jews, but as a national anthem for a nation, it's very strange.

[Serafina]

It's really not that bad.
It is a nice example to show the religious nature of the nation of Isreal, but it is hardly evidence on it's own.

A lot of anthems refer to "god" in some way (as shown above). Others glorify war and so on.
The french have a battle hymn as their anthem - does that mean that that they are warmongers?

To arms, to arms, ye brave!
The avenging sword unsheath,
March on, march on!
All hearts resolv'd
On victory or death!

Now, if it would say something like "to live in thy service oh lord" or "to worship thee our lord" - THAT i would call bad.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Just out of curiosity, have any of you made the slightest effort to see if any other national anthems contain a hint of "this is for us" kind of spirit?

"This is for us" is generally not tied into one specific religion. The worst you get is a generic mention of deities. Talk of a Jewish homeland is understandable for Jews, but as a national anthem for a nation, it's very strange.

I just gave a list of anthems (and a link to a much larger list) of nations that do so - Christianity/ (or) Islam count as one religion.

[General Zod]

At least they're honest about it? I mean unlike the American pledge of allegiance which mentions God yet retards will argue until they're blue in the face that it can supposedly mean "any God an individual worships" (yeah right).

[Bounty]

I just gave a list of anthems (and a link to a much larger list) of nations that do so - Christianity/ (or) Islam count as one religion.

"God bless <whatever>" does not refer to one specific religion; at the time the anthems were written, it was pretty much a standard formula. You'll note none of those anthems specifically exclude all but one religion.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I just gave a list of anthems (and a link to a much larger list) of nations that do so - Christianity/ (or) Islam count as one religion.

"God bless <whatever>" does not refer to one specific religion; at the time the anthems were written, it was pretty much a standard formula. You'll note none of those anthems specifically exclude all but one religion.

The meaning is Christianity (or Islam in some cases), and you fucking well know it.
Go on, argue that god save the king in England is a nod to Buddhism, I could use a laugh.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Actually, Bounty, the French version of the Canadian national anthem contains the lyrics, (roughly)

"You arm knows how to carry the sword
It knows how to carry the Cross"

(Original:
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée,
Il sait porter la croix!

Also the lyrics 'Et ta valeur, de foi trempée')

That seems pretty exclusively Christian to me. The English version does mention 'God keep our land glorious and free', but that isn't particularly exclusive, but the English version is actually only a translation of the French, which came first. Turns out old national lyrics are chauvinistic and nostalgic everywhere? Who kn- nevermind.

[Serafina]

I just gave a list of anthems (and a link to a much larger list) of nations that do so - Christianity/ (or) Islam count as one religion.

"God bless <whatever>" does not refer to one specific religion; at the time the anthems were written, it was pretty much a standard formula. You'll note none of those anthems specifically exclude all but one religion.

The meaning is Christianity (or Islam in some cases), and you fucking well know it.
Go on, argue that god save the king in England is a nod to Buddhism, I could use a laugh.

Buddhism has no gods.

But yes, you are correct, they of course refer to the christian god.
But then again, you can argue that they CAN mean any other god - while that is not the case in the isreali anthem.

[The Grim Squeaker]

The meaning is Christianity (or Islam in some cases), and you fucking well know it.
Go on, argue that god save the king in England is a nod to Buddhism, I could use a laugh.

Buddhism has no gods.

But yes, you are correct, they of course refer to the christian god.

If the meaning is clear and you agree with it, why argue with what you agree? .

But then again, you can argue that they CAN mean any other god - while that is not the case in the isreali anthem.

The Israeli anthem doesn't mention a god at all actually.

[Rahvin]

Just out of curiosity, have any of you made the slightest effort to see if any other national anthems contain a hint of "this is for us" kind of spirit? I suspect you might find a great number of anthems that have a national identity/homeland/motherland/fatherland/our ancient grounds/kind of ring to it.

This isn't just a "national pride" thing. It specifically ties in race and religion. "Oh Canada" works jsut as well for any Canadian citizen regardless of race, religion, gender, or what have you. The Israeli anthem is specifically including only Jews.

Here, let me rewrite the first couple lines as the American anthem with equivalent racial and religious terms:

In the White heart
A White spirit still sings,

I suppose I could change the second "White" to "Protestant" for fuller effect.

"Oh, no, a national anthem speaks of a yearning for an ancient land of past traditions!". Wow. That never happens anywhere else.

Ancient lands and traditions don't bother me. The bit about Jerusalem? Just fine. Ancestral homelands and old traditions? Not inherently bad.

It's the exclusively Jewish parts that I despise. The national anthem is explicitly racist and theocratic.

And for the record, I'm not a fan of "God save the queen," "In God we trust," "Under God," or any of the other state endorsements of religion (specific or just strongly implied).

[General Zod]

It's the exclusively Jewish parts that I despise. The national anthem is explicitly racist and theocratic.

You do realize there's several different ethnicities of Jews, right?

[Rahvin]

It's the exclusively Jewish parts that I despise. The national anthem is explicitly racist and theocratic.

You do realize there's several different ethnicities of Jews, right?

And there are several different subdivisions of Caucasians, Asians, Africans, and every other race. If I make a song about Asian Power, it's no less racist simply because "Asian" includes people of Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Hmong, and other ethnic divisions.

Are you arguing that the Israeli anthem is not inherently racist and theocratic?

[General Zod]

And there are several different subdivisions of Caucasians, Asians, Africans, and every other race. If I make a song about Asian Power, it's no less racist simply because "Asian" includes people of Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Hmong, and other ethnic divisions.

So if a country happens to share the same name as the majority ethnicity which inhabits it, they shouldn't mention their ethnic name in their anthem? Give me a break.

Are you arguing that the Israeli anthem is not inherently racist and theocratic?

And whether it's theocratic is relevant. . .why? It was founded as a religious state for fuck's sake, who gives a shit if its anthem comes off as theocratic? It's not as if they're pretending to be secular. Frankly I'm having a hard time getting worked up about this the way some people here are.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Hey, Rahvin, will you address the point about the Canadian anthem having the same exclusivity to the Christian religion, both in kits original version and the version even now learnt by all Quebecois and bi-lingual Canadians (including myself, who sang it every day in elementary school)?

[Rahvin]

And there are several different subdivisions of Caucasians, Asians, Africans, and every other race. If I make a song about Asian Power, it's no less racist simply because "Asian" includes people of Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Hmong, and other ethnic divisions.

So if a country happens to share the same name as the majority ethnicity which inhabits it, they shouldn't mention their ethnic name in their anthem? Give me a break.

The name of the country isn't "Jewish." The name is "Israel." The term Israel can be used to denote a country and/or ethnic and/or religious groups. The term "Jewish" exclusively identifies an ethnic and/or religious group.

If they changed the word "Jewish" in the anthem to "Israeli," I wouldn't have a problem with it, as it would tehn at least be referring to the country inclusive of all people who live there as opposed to including only a single ethnic/religious group.

Are you arguing that the Israeli anthem is not inherently racist and theocratic?

And whether it's theocratic is relevant. . .why? It was founded as a religious state for fuck's sake, who gives a shit if its anthem comes off as theocratic? It's not as if they're pretending to be secular. Frankly I'm having a hard time getting worked up about this the way some people here are.

Well, at least you aren't arguing that it's not racist.

As for being theocratic, it's a deal to me because I disapprove of theocracy regardless of whether it's "out in the open" or not. Granted, the anthem itself is inconsequential compared to the actual policies of the country, but as the thread was about the anthem, I felt it appropriate to express my disgust about the anthem.

[Rahvin]

Hey, Rahvin, will you address the point about the Canadian anthem having the same exclusivity to the Christian religion, both in kits original version and the version even now learnt by all Quebecois and bi-lingual Canadians (including myself, who sang it every day in elementary school)?

I'll concede that many (most?) national anthems or mottos etc tend to have some degree of religious overtones, and express my disapproval of all instances of such. That includes the America "One nation under God" and "In God we trust," the Canadian anthem's reference to the cross, "God Save the Queen," and everything else. As I said earlier:

And for the record, I'm not a fan of "God save the queen," "In God we trust," "Under God," or any of the other state endorsements of religion (specific or just strongly implied).

Hell, here's the Saudi Arabian anthem, in English:

Hasten to glory and supremacy,
Glorify the Creator of the heavens!
And raise the green flag
Carrying the emblem of Light,
Repeating: Allah is the greatest,
O my country!
My country, Live as the glory of Muslims!
Long live the King for the flag and the country!

Obviously theocratic. I don't care that they aren't pretending to be otherwise - I still find it disgusting.

The Israeli one was simply the topic of the thread. I don't think any of them become "not so bad" in the context that most all of them seem to have religious or ethnic references - I just think they're all bad. State involvement of religion, even if simply a general endorsement like including a nondenominational approval of "faith" or an unnamed (but still obvious) deity, is all reprehensible to me.

[Crossroads Inc.]

I reeeally hope this doesn't sound racist, more of an observation, but as far as I know "Jews" are the only people whose Religion equals their race. Someone can Be Arabic (race) but be Christian, someone could be White (race) and be muslim. But a "Jew" can't be anything other then, jewish. I mean, if you are born in Israel and race "Jewish" as your identity, well in theory you could change your religion, but would you still be "Jewish" ?

[Rahvin]

I reeeally hope this doesn't sound racist, more of an observation, but as far as I know "Jews" are the only people whose Religion equals their race. Someone can Be Arabic (race) but be Christian, someone could be White (race) and be muslim. But a "Jew" can't be anything other then, jewish. I mean, if you are born in Israel and race "Jewish" as your identity, well in theory you could change your religion, but would you still be "Jewish" ?

"Jewish" just means one or both. You can be ethnically Jewish and an atheist or Christian, or you can be religiously Jewish and ethnically Asian.

[Coyote]

I think the real lesson being lost here is... there are legitimate criticisms one can level at Israel (or, indeed, many countries). This is a bit of a reach, and undermines those legitimate criticisms. It points to what eyl said in the other thread-- if you're going to only point out a problem when Israel does it, and ignore everyone else when they do the same or even worse, it's no great surprise when legitimate criticisms get waved off as "mere anti-Semitism".