The Hatikvah

[General Zod]

The name of the country isn't "Jewish." The name is "Israel." The term Israel can be used to denote a country and/or ethnic and/or religious groups. The term "Jewish" exclusively identifies an ethnic and/or religious group.

In other words you missed my point completely.

If they changed the word "Jewish" in the anthem to "Israeli," I wouldn't have a problem with it, as it would tehn at least be referring to the country inclusive of all people who live there as opposed to including only a single ethnic/religious group.

In other words you're concerned about semantics than substance.

Well, at least you aren't arguing that it's not racist.

As for being theocratic, it's a deal to me because I disapprove of theocracy regardless of whether it's "out in the open" or not. Granted, the anthem itself is inconsequential compared to the actual policies of the country, but as the thread was about the anthem, I felt it appropriate to express my disgust about the anthem.

And the complaint about the anthem is retarded. There's a lot of legitimate complaints about Israel but nitpicking semantics and calling it a theocratic hole based on a few words in the anthem comes off as childish.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

I think the real lesson being lost here is... there are legitimate criticisms one can level at Israel (or, indeed, many countries). This is a bit of a reach, and undermines those legitimate criticisms. It points to what eyl said in the other thread-- if you're going to only point out a problem when Israel does it, and ignore everyone else when they do the same or even worse, it's no great surprise when legitimate criticisms get waved off as "mere anti-Semitism".

This. Knowing as you claim to do that every nation in the world uses this kind of chauvinistic rhetoric, creating an entire thread specifically devoted to showcasing that hey, Israel does this common thing too is frankly absurd, and the fact that you attacked Israel vehemently without even mentioning the dozens of perfectly alright countries that do the same thing without an eyebrow raised is, honestly, indicative of a deeper bias. To say 'Can we get bias out of anthems?' is a fine topic. To just say 'Israel is openly racist and theocratic and awful because of this' is bigoted.

EDIT: And I'm strongly anti-Israel myself.

[hongi]

Here's the problem I had with it.

In the Jewish heart
A Jewish spirit still sings,
And the eyes look east
Toward Zion
Our hope is not lost,
Our hope of two thousand years,
To be a free nation in our land,
In the land of Zion and Jerusalem

Israeli =/= Jew. Evidence? Israeli Arabs. It was not their hope for the last two thousand years, they were not in exile. The national anthem is for Jews, not all Israelis.

[Samuel]

Does Israel mandate its recitation at sporting events and the like? How big are national anthems outside the US?

[hongi]

Off-topic, I think the music to the Hatikvah is beautiful. The words, not so much.

Just out of curiosity, have any of you made the slightest effort to see if any other national anthems contain a hint of "this is for us" kind of spirit? I suspect you might find a great number of anthems that have a national identity/homeland/motherland/fatherland/our ancient grounds/kind of ring to it.

"Oh, no, a national anthem speaks of a yearning for an ancient land of past traditions!". Wow. That never happens anywhere else.

Other anthems may have the 'this is for us' spirit. But how many have 'this is for us, a particular ethnic group'? And by the way if there are any, I'm against those too. I can't even imagine how an Israeli non-Jew sings the Hatikvah without some sort of cognitive dissonance.

"Jewish" just means one or both. You can be ethnically Jewish and an atheist or Christian, or you can be religiously Jewish and ethnically Asian.

Well, ethnically Asian-Jewish. Once you become a Jew, you're a Jew.

[General Zod]

Here's the problem I had with it.

In the Jewish heart
A Jewish spirit still sings,
And the eyes look east
Toward Zion
Our hope is not lost,
Our hope of two thousand years,
To be a free nation in our land,
In the land of Zion and Jerusalem

Israeli =/= Jew. Evidence? Israeli Arabs. It was not their hope for the last two thousand years, they were not in exile. The national anthem is for Jews, not all Israelis.

Please don't tell me you really think you're the first person to take issue with this? Because I'm really not sure what you're looking for here except to get an echo chamber of people agreeing that it's prejudiced.

[Spyder]

God of Nations at thy feet
In the bonds of love we meet;
Hear our voices we entreat;
God defend our free land;

Guard Pacific’s triple star;
From the shafts of strife and war;
Make her praises heard afar
God defend New Zealand.

*shudder*

You know, I've never actually thought about it before but whoever this "God of Nations" is supposed to be, she's at our feet, praising us and tasked with our defenses. I think we need to add more verses though because clearly we're not getting our money's worth.

God of Nations, while you're down there...

[hongi]

God of Nations at thy feet
In the bonds of love we meet;
Hear our voices we entreat;
God defend our free land;

Guard Pacific’s triple star;
From the shafts of strife and war;
Make her praises heard afar
God defend New Zealand.

*shudder*

You know, I've never actually thought about it before but whoever this "God of Nations" is supposed to be, she's at our feet, praising us and tasked with our defenses. I think we need to add more verses though because clearly we're not getting our money's worth.

God of Nations, while you're down there...

The English syntax is sort of tricky.

It goes: God of nations, at your feet, we meet in the bonds of love. And 'her praises' = the praises of our free land, who is personified as female.

[Spyder]

The English syntax is sort of tricky.

It goes: God of nations, at your feet, we meet in the bonds of love. And 'her praises' = the praises of our free land, who is personified as female.

I prefer the Maori version. I don't understand Maori so it's vastly less annoying.

[Soldier of Entropy]

"Jewish" just means one or both. You can be ethnically Jewish and an atheist or Christian, or you can be religiously Jewish and ethnically Asian.

Well, ethnically Asian-Jewish. Once you become a Jew, you're a Jew.

No, ethnically, you're still Asian. Ethnic 'Asian Jews' are members of one of several small groups of Jews who have been living in Asia for several centuries to millenia, and have become distinct. Furthermore, technically speaking, no one should be considered an 'ethnic Jew'. They should be ethnically Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, or Ethiopian-Jewish (or Caucasus Jewish, Indian-Jewish, Chinese Jewish (that one may have been merged with other ethnic groups over time due to assimilation, not sure), Yemenite-Jewish, Italian-Jewish, or several others, though these are smaller groups), or some mix of the above or a mix of one or more of the above and other ethnicities. A convert to Judaism would still be their former ethnicity, however, as they didn't suddenly gain Ashkenazi ancestors, and these groups are genetically distinct (and in some cases, more closely related to their neighbors than each other).

...Or wait, am I talking about race...
...now I'm not sure...

The point is however, that the Hatikvah is not necessarily racist, since 'Judaism' isn't a coherent race or racial group. It is wholeheartedly theocratic, and exclusionary of non-Jews, and there is no denying that, however.

[hongi]

I prefer the Maori version. I don't understand Maori so it's vastly less annoying.

But you sing it, I can't say the same for many Kiwis. It's just mumble mumble on the Maori, then GOD DEFEND NEW ZEALAND! After years of indoctrination/practice during school ceremonies, you might think they'd be able to sing the damned national anthem.