nBSG compared to Babylon 5
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
And assuming they're within a reasonable travel time for both sides, Earthforce could happily force an engagement, they've a variety of beams and weapons over earth, at least, and enough forces to garrison their own colonies and go on the offensive.
Pinning the Cylons down would be trickier, as they seem to live on the edge of a black hole, but if Earthforce could get at them, they could happily destroy them almost at leisure with their beam weapons.
Pinning the Cylons down would be trickier, as they seem to live on the edge of a black hole, but if Earthforce could get at them, they could happily destroy them almost at leisure with their beam weapons.
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
There's not much to go on... I once estimated the Starfuries to be in the low gigawatt range based on damage they inflicted on the Centauri battlecruiser in "The Fall of Night", but that's really just eyeballing things.Batman wrote:On the actual topic, I agree with NecronLord-the fighter vis-a-vis could go either way. If anything I'd give the maneuverability edge to the Vipers and I don't think there's any reliable data available on EITHER ship's firepower.
We hardly ever see missiles used in space combat. I think there was only one missile exchange between the Drazi and Centauri in Season 5. The Centauri shot down the entire Drazi missile salvo before it even got close; the Centauri missiles pretty much wrecked the Drazi task force.Batman wrote:While we've seen Starfuries CARRY missiles we've to my knowledge never seen them use any in space combat.
Thunderbolts are the only EarthForce fighters we've seen to even have missiles, and they only used them against surface targets.
The Narn were able to engage a fleet of Shadow ships at such range that missiles, beams, and fighters were going past a moon on the way to their targets. That means the range was likely thousands of kilometers, and the Narn aren't significantly more advanced than EarthForce.Batman wrote:Capital ship vs capital ship nBSG loses, HARD. Battlestars are vulnerable to double digit omnidirectional nukes when EarthAlliance (which by no means is at the top of the B5 power totem pole even where the Younger Races are concerned) warships have beam weapons in the KT/sec range and at least OCCASIONALLY use them at triple to quadruple figure km ranges.
That's pretty much my opinion, but my knowledge of nBSG is very limited.Batman wrote:nBSG could likely AVOID conflict if they so chose thanks to their instantaneous FTL but if the DO stay to fight, they lose.
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
Actually we see standard Starfuries carry missiles in Thirdspace, but as I said, they never fired any.Ted C wrote: Thunderbolts are the only EarthForce fighters we've seen to even have missiles, and they only used them against surface targets.
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
From a technical standpoint, there are several things to consider. Firstly, let's look at the starfighters of each side.
Babylon 5 (all data from B5tech.com):
Aurora Class Starfury:
Type: Heavy Fighter
Length: 9.56 Meters
Accel.: 1 km/s
Crew: 1 Pilot
Weapons: 4 40mm Pulse Cannons
2 35mm Pulse Cannons
Fusion missiles [8 points]
Defense: 4.2 Centimeter re-enforced armor
1 Grappling Claws
1 Cutting Laser
Badger Class Starfury:
Type: Heavy Fighter
Length: 10.21 Meters
Accel.: 0.9 km/s
Crew: 2 Pilot
Weapons: 1 32mm Gatling Rail Gun
6 40mm Pulse Cannons
4 40mm Plasma Bolt Cannons
Fusion missiles [8 points]
Defense: 5.0 Centimeter re-enforced armor
Thunderbolt Class Starfury:
type: Heavy Fighter - Bomber
Length: 15.54 meters
Accel.: 1 km/s
Crew: 2 - Pilot w/ Bomber
Weapons: 4 Linked, Unidirectional 40mm Pulse Cannons
Fusion missiles [10 points]
Defense: 5.6 Centimeter re-enforced armor
2 Grappling Claws
1 Cutting Laser
Re-Imagined Battlestar Galactica (all data from the Battlestar wiki):
Viper Mark II:
Type: Space Superiority Fighter
Propulsion: 1 x Voram VM2-D15 upper turbo-thrust engine, 2x Voram VM3-D22 turbo-thrust engines, 2x reverse thrust motors, RCS points; capable of 6-7 g acceleration and .35-second 180 degree rotation
Crew: 1
Armaments: 2 x MEC-A6 30mm Thraxon forward-firing kinetic energy weapons (KEW) mounted in the wing roots with 800 round magazine, Dorsal storage bay for 8 x HD-70 Lightning Javelin missiles (optional 50 megaton nuclear warhead). Weapon hardpoints for mounting missiles / munitions pods, etc. under the wings.
Length: 27.6 feet (~8.4m)
Height: 8.9 feet (~2.7m)
Wingspan: 15.5 feet (~4.7m)
Viper Mark VII:
Type: Space Superiority Fighter
Propulsion: 3 x turbo-thrust engines mounted aft, RCS points
Crew: 1 pilot in Terrell ES 24C ejection seat.
Armaments: 3 x forward-firing kinetic energy weapons (KEW), 2 mounted towards the outboard sections of the wings, 1 x mounted in the vertical stabilizer, Weapon hard-points for mounting missiles / munitions pods, etc. under the wings.
Length: 32.3 feet (~9.8 meters)
Height 9.7 feet (~3.0 meters)
Wingspan 18.4 feet (~5.6 meters)
From the looks of things, it seems that both types of craft are roughly equivalent in maneuverability and acceleration (note: despite the acceleration figures given for the starfuries, none of them seem to carry inertial compensators [this is borne out by Sinclair's description of his taking the safety interlocks offline in his starfury at the Battle of the Line]; also, I doubt that the mark VII viper is less maneuverable or slower accelerating than the mark II, due to technological upgrades). The most maneuverable and fastest-accelerating fighter will likely be the one with the toughest and most skilled pilot.
Let's take a look at their weapons. Assuming that the 30mm KEW on the vipers is (very) roughly equivalent to modern-day weapons, its destructive power will be really dependant upon the closing velocity of the viper and its target. There are two different types of 30mm cannon in use with US aircraft today: the GAU-8 Avenger, mounted on the A-10 Thunderbolt II and intended for anti-tank warfare; and the M230 Chain Gun, mounted on the AH-64 Apache and also intended for anti-tank warfare.
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the Colonial forces use something equivalent to the GAU-8. If it has the same muzzle velocity and projectile mass as the GAU-8, that should give it approximately 2.4e5 joules of kinetic energy per round (425 g @ 1,070 m/s muzzle velocity, according to Wikipedia).
Also assuming that the figures given here for pulsecannon mounted on the station itself are correct (which is debateable, but at least he's shown his work), then we have a baseline for the starfuries' cannon. Assuming that the difference between the weapons in destructive power is equivalent to the difference between a .50 caliber machine gun (used commonly on US aircraft during WWII) and the Iowa-class battleship main guns (also in use during WWII) (again, BIG assumptions, but I'm working in the dark here), then the difference in energy per blast should be a factor of about 3.8e-5 (49 g @ 798 m/s for the .50 cal [according to Wikipedia] and 1,200 kg @ 820 m/s for the Iowa gun [also according to Wikipedia]). That means that the starfuries' cannon should be releasing about 2.4e9 joules per blast. That's roughly equivalent to half a ton of TNT.
So, hands down, the starfuries have more powerful main guns than the vipers in a dogfight (where closing velocities are going to be negligable, since being able to track and fire on your opponent for more than a fraction of a second is difficult-to-impossible if the relative velocities are in the tens or hundreds of km/s). In a high-velocity (tens to hundreds of km/s) closing battle, the heavier projectiles of the vipers would begin to outclass their starfury equivalents. However, there one begins to run into the problems of limited reaction mass to reach that velocity and sighting the weapons properly.
As to each's missiles, it is stated that the vipers can carry a 50 megaton nuclear device. Assuming (and I'm having trouble, since I don't see citations anywhere) that this site is correct, the starfuries missiles carried, at maximum, a 75 kiloton nuclear yield. So, at least in that respect, the viper comes out clearly on top.
As to the armor for each, I can't seem to find any information on the viper's armor. However, it can be seen in several episodes of the re-imagined BSG that the cylon raiders' cannon are able to damage or even destroy the vipers. Since it is shown (in Kobol's Last Gleaming, seen in a photo on this page) that the raiders can mount the same 30mm ammo as the vipers, then it can be said that the starfuries' cannon are likely to be able to penetrate the vipers' armor.
The armor given for the starfuries is supposedly between 4.2cm and 5.6cm (for the Aurora and Thunderbolt class starfuries, respectively). Let's assume the low-end, shall we? Assuming that the information given on this page is correct (again, debateable, but he's shown his work), and that the statement that a Hyperion-class cruiser's armor is 8m thick (given here), then the starfuries' armor (if the armor is made of the same stuff as a hyperion's, and that its resistance to kinetic energy is directly related to its thickness--not something that I'm qualified to state categorically) should be able to shrug off approximately 7.2e9 joules of kinetic energy. If it is a matter of cumulative energy (again, a complete WAG on my part), then it would require over 29,000 viper cannon rounds on the same spot to breach the armor!
Without the use of nukes or high closing velocity tactics, the vipers would have trouble with their starfury counterparts, if all of my assumptions are correct. If not, please show me where I went wrong; I'm doing this at two in the morning because it interested me. It's entirely possible that I have missed a step somewhere. Now, on to the capital ships...
Babylon 5 (all data from B5tech.com):
Aurora Class Starfury:
Type: Heavy Fighter
Length: 9.56 Meters
Accel.: 1 km/s
Crew: 1 Pilot
Weapons: 4 40mm Pulse Cannons
2 35mm Pulse Cannons
Fusion missiles [8 points]
Defense: 4.2 Centimeter re-enforced armor
1 Grappling Claws
1 Cutting Laser
Badger Class Starfury:
Type: Heavy Fighter
Length: 10.21 Meters
Accel.: 0.9 km/s
Crew: 2 Pilot
Weapons: 1 32mm Gatling Rail Gun
6 40mm Pulse Cannons
4 40mm Plasma Bolt Cannons
Fusion missiles [8 points]
Defense: 5.0 Centimeter re-enforced armor
Thunderbolt Class Starfury:
type: Heavy Fighter - Bomber
Length: 15.54 meters
Accel.: 1 km/s
Crew: 2 - Pilot w/ Bomber
Weapons: 4 Linked, Unidirectional 40mm Pulse Cannons
Fusion missiles [10 points]
Defense: 5.6 Centimeter re-enforced armor
2 Grappling Claws
1 Cutting Laser
Re-Imagined Battlestar Galactica (all data from the Battlestar wiki):
Viper Mark II:
Type: Space Superiority Fighter
Propulsion: 1 x Voram VM2-D15 upper turbo-thrust engine, 2x Voram VM3-D22 turbo-thrust engines, 2x reverse thrust motors, RCS points; capable of 6-7 g acceleration and .35-second 180 degree rotation
Crew: 1
Armaments: 2 x MEC-A6 30mm Thraxon forward-firing kinetic energy weapons (KEW) mounted in the wing roots with 800 round magazine, Dorsal storage bay for 8 x HD-70 Lightning Javelin missiles (optional 50 megaton nuclear warhead). Weapon hardpoints for mounting missiles / munitions pods, etc. under the wings.
Length: 27.6 feet (~8.4m)
Height: 8.9 feet (~2.7m)
Wingspan: 15.5 feet (~4.7m)
Viper Mark VII:
Type: Space Superiority Fighter
Propulsion: 3 x turbo-thrust engines mounted aft, RCS points
Crew: 1 pilot in Terrell ES 24C ejection seat.
Armaments: 3 x forward-firing kinetic energy weapons (KEW), 2 mounted towards the outboard sections of the wings, 1 x mounted in the vertical stabilizer, Weapon hard-points for mounting missiles / munitions pods, etc. under the wings.
Length: 32.3 feet (~9.8 meters)
Height 9.7 feet (~3.0 meters)
Wingspan 18.4 feet (~5.6 meters)
From the looks of things, it seems that both types of craft are roughly equivalent in maneuverability and acceleration (note: despite the acceleration figures given for the starfuries, none of them seem to carry inertial compensators [this is borne out by Sinclair's description of his taking the safety interlocks offline in his starfury at the Battle of the Line]; also, I doubt that the mark VII viper is less maneuverable or slower accelerating than the mark II, due to technological upgrades). The most maneuverable and fastest-accelerating fighter will likely be the one with the toughest and most skilled pilot.
Let's take a look at their weapons. Assuming that the 30mm KEW on the vipers is (very) roughly equivalent to modern-day weapons, its destructive power will be really dependant upon the closing velocity of the viper and its target. There are two different types of 30mm cannon in use with US aircraft today: the GAU-8 Avenger, mounted on the A-10 Thunderbolt II and intended for anti-tank warfare; and the M230 Chain Gun, mounted on the AH-64 Apache and also intended for anti-tank warfare.
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the Colonial forces use something equivalent to the GAU-8. If it has the same muzzle velocity and projectile mass as the GAU-8, that should give it approximately 2.4e5 joules of kinetic energy per round (425 g @ 1,070 m/s muzzle velocity, according to Wikipedia).
Also assuming that the figures given here for pulsecannon mounted on the station itself are correct (which is debateable, but at least he's shown his work), then we have a baseline for the starfuries' cannon. Assuming that the difference between the weapons in destructive power is equivalent to the difference between a .50 caliber machine gun (used commonly on US aircraft during WWII) and the Iowa-class battleship main guns (also in use during WWII) (again, BIG assumptions, but I'm working in the dark here), then the difference in energy per blast should be a factor of about 3.8e-5 (49 g @ 798 m/s for the .50 cal [according to Wikipedia] and 1,200 kg @ 820 m/s for the Iowa gun [also according to Wikipedia]). That means that the starfuries' cannon should be releasing about 2.4e9 joules per blast. That's roughly equivalent to half a ton of TNT.
So, hands down, the starfuries have more powerful main guns than the vipers in a dogfight (where closing velocities are going to be negligable, since being able to track and fire on your opponent for more than a fraction of a second is difficult-to-impossible if the relative velocities are in the tens or hundreds of km/s). In a high-velocity (tens to hundreds of km/s) closing battle, the heavier projectiles of the vipers would begin to outclass their starfury equivalents. However, there one begins to run into the problems of limited reaction mass to reach that velocity and sighting the weapons properly.
As to each's missiles, it is stated that the vipers can carry a 50 megaton nuclear device. Assuming (and I'm having trouble, since I don't see citations anywhere) that this site is correct, the starfuries missiles carried, at maximum, a 75 kiloton nuclear yield. So, at least in that respect, the viper comes out clearly on top.
As to the armor for each, I can't seem to find any information on the viper's armor. However, it can be seen in several episodes of the re-imagined BSG that the cylon raiders' cannon are able to damage or even destroy the vipers. Since it is shown (in Kobol's Last Gleaming, seen in a photo on this page) that the raiders can mount the same 30mm ammo as the vipers, then it can be said that the starfuries' cannon are likely to be able to penetrate the vipers' armor.
The armor given for the starfuries is supposedly between 4.2cm and 5.6cm (for the Aurora and Thunderbolt class starfuries, respectively). Let's assume the low-end, shall we? Assuming that the information given on this page is correct (again, debateable, but he's shown his work), and that the statement that a Hyperion-class cruiser's armor is 8m thick (given here), then the starfuries' armor (if the armor is made of the same stuff as a hyperion's, and that its resistance to kinetic energy is directly related to its thickness--not something that I'm qualified to state categorically) should be able to shrug off approximately 7.2e9 joules of kinetic energy. If it is a matter of cumulative energy (again, a complete WAG on my part), then it would require over 29,000 viper cannon rounds on the same spot to breach the armor!
Without the use of nukes or high closing velocity tactics, the vipers would have trouble with their starfury counterparts, if all of my assumptions are correct. If not, please show me where I went wrong; I'm doing this at two in the morning because it interested me. It's entirely possible that I have missed a step somewhere. Now, on to the capital ships...
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
Some of those stats don't make any sense at all. Aurora Starfuries most explicitly carry TWO guns. They don't have ports for four, and have never fired four in the show ever. Much less SIX somehow.
IIRC the Viper's nuclear ordinance was 50kT. Not MT.
IIRC the Viper's nuclear ordinance was 50kT. Not MT.
Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
As to the Aurora carrying only two, it's entirely possible that only two were shown firing in any single episode. However, this screen capture here, from jumpnow.de, shows on what is indisputably an Aurora what appears to be six cannon; note the two-barreled design of both cannon on either side of the ventral portion of the cockpit, as well as the single barrel at about the 10-o'clock portion of the cockpit. Unfortunately, the opposing cannon is in shadow, but it seems that Earthforce builds their fighters symmetrically. A better look at the top two cannon is seen in this screen capture. Oddly enough, it seems that both sets of cannon have two barrels. I wonder why? Here's another look.
The viper's missile ordinance is given as 50 megatons on this page (see sidebar on the right-hand side of the page).
Edit: I'm rather tired. I don't think that I'll get to the capital ships until tomorrow night or so.
The viper's missile ordinance is given as 50 megatons on this page (see sidebar on the right-hand side of the page).
Edit: I'm rather tired. I don't think that I'll get to the capital ships until tomorrow night or so.
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
50 Megatons? What? Where is this stated? When? That wiki site doesn't appear to show any calculations. That's the same as a Base Star's MIRV.
As for B5tech; babtech is almost always more accurate in every respect. B5tech and EFNI almost always use questionable assumptions; like the metals in the series being ten times as thermally resistant as steel... for some reason.
As for B5tech; babtech is almost always more accurate in every respect. B5tech and EFNI almost always use questionable assumptions; like the metals in the series being ten times as thermally resistant as steel... for some reason.
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
50 MT would be one-shot kill against all nBSG and B5 younger race capital ships, at least assuming near detonation or direct hit. I can't think of anything quite that powerful shown in nBSG, although I still haven't seen the last season.NecronLord wrote:50 Megatons? What? Where is this stated? When? That wiki site doesn't appear to show any calculations. That's the same as a Base Star's MIRV.
Agreed, although EFNI is more fan fiction than analysis and admits it. Rather good B5 fan fiction for military spaceship nerds, I might add. The writer is an aeronautical engineer, if I remember correctly.NecronLord wrote: As for B5tech; babtech is almost always more accurate in every respect. B5tech and EFNI almost always use questionable assumptions; like the metals in the series being ten times as thermally resistant as steel... for some reason.
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
Vipers probably do not have any nuclear capable missiles. The only time they deployed nuclear missiles was in season 4 episode "The Hub". Those were cylon missiles loaded into highly modified colonial vipers. Normally vipers have no air to air missiles whatsoever. Infact I cant remember a single incidence of a viper engaging another fighter with a missile. Their missile armament is almost non existant. When they do have missiles it is extremely short ranged. Vipers attacking ground targets in season ones "the hand of god" and seasons "exodus part 2" had to get close a biplane pilot would consider it as point blank range.
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
Every single example of an Aurora starfury firing its weapons in B5 has shown pulses emerging from two gunports below the cockpit. I don't know what these four ports are on either side of the cockpit, but there's no real evidence that they're pulse cannons.Sheridan wrote:As to the Aurora carrying only two, it's entirely possible that only two were shown firing in any single episode. However, this screen capture here, from jumpnow.de, shows on what is indisputably an Aurora what appears to be six cannon; note the two-barreled design of both cannon on either side of the ventral portion of the cockpit, as well as the single barrel at about the 10-o'clock portion of the cockpit. Unfortunately, the opposing cannon is in shadow, but it seems that Earthforce builds their fighters symmetrically. A better look at the top two cannon is seen in this screen capture. Oddly enough, it seems that both sets of cannon have two barrels. I wonder why? Here's another look.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
Things to remember about a nBSG-Colonies/Bab5-EA meetup would be the awesome utility of on-demand FTL for strategic purposes. Only a few of the heaviest EA ships have internal jump capability; the rest rely on jump gates which are an extreme vulnerability. Jump gates mostly seem to be built where they are needed and left there, many times with little forces guarding them. If the Colonial Forces were serious about conquering the EA, their first move would be to destroy the jumpgates nad then use their on-demand FTL to piecemeal stranded EA forces in their systems.
That said, remmeber that a Battlestar can suffer a soft kill, too. If a EA nuke or beam weapon happens to hit the self-replicating water supply of a Battlestar, that whole Battlestar is out of commission. It's got some fragile points on it, if you know where to hit. The water supply was vulnerable to a few blocks of C4 that could be carried in a gym bag by a single woman, albeit it was an internal explosion.
In truth, though, socio-politically, if the Colonies or just the Galactica itself encountered the EA, they'd likely go "Yay! We found the lost 13th Colony!" and they'd expcet the EA to help with the Cylons. The EA would be puzzled by all this "lost tribe" nonsense talk, but be interested in the help brought to them by these strange people who seem to have comperable, but still quite different, tech. They'd want help with on-demand FTL small enough to fit in a Raptor, and seek to employ them against the enemy of the week (Centauri, Shadows).
So if you want to play it that way, you might ask how would the EA do if they were helping the Colonies deal with the Cylons, and how would the Colonials do helping the EA against the Shadows and Centauri. I think the only really interesting thing the Colonials could provide would be their FTL tech. The Colonials would have a problem with the stealthing tech of the Shadows, for example.
Politically, they both have head-up-ass problems, though. Both are infiltrated by sleeper agents and both have so much political infighting and factional bickering that limit their effectiveness. Although if Laura Roslin became President of the EA...
That said, remmeber that a Battlestar can suffer a soft kill, too. If a EA nuke or beam weapon happens to hit the self-replicating water supply of a Battlestar, that whole Battlestar is out of commission. It's got some fragile points on it, if you know where to hit. The water supply was vulnerable to a few blocks of C4 that could be carried in a gym bag by a single woman, albeit it was an internal explosion.
In truth, though, socio-politically, if the Colonies or just the Galactica itself encountered the EA, they'd likely go "Yay! We found the lost 13th Colony!" and they'd expcet the EA to help with the Cylons. The EA would be puzzled by all this "lost tribe" nonsense talk, but be interested in the help brought to them by these strange people who seem to have comperable, but still quite different, tech. They'd want help with on-demand FTL small enough to fit in a Raptor, and seek to employ them against the enemy of the week (Centauri, Shadows).
So if you want to play it that way, you might ask how would the EA do if they were helping the Colonies deal with the Cylons, and how would the Colonials do helping the EA against the Shadows and Centauri. I think the only really interesting thing the Colonials could provide would be their FTL tech. The Colonials would have a problem with the stealthing tech of the Shadows, for example.
Politically, they both have head-up-ass problems, though. Both are infiltrated by sleeper agents and both have so much political infighting and factional bickering that limit their effectiveness. Although if Laura Roslin became President of the EA...
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In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
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Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
Any EA ship escort-size or larger has jump capability. Which pretty much means all of their modern warships. Only small Corvettes (EA's are obsolete), fighters and civilian ships must use jumpgates. Other ships don't have to, but often do for routine travel to save wear and tear on their equipment.
BSG is going to have a problem blowing up Jumpgates, because they're apparently prone to cause horrific calamities when going up without being shut down first or something.
Those holes on a Starfury could be anything. Like previously mentioned, only the lower center two ever fire. The others could be sensors or something.
BSG is going to have a problem blowing up Jumpgates, because they're apparently prone to cause horrific calamities when going up without being shut down first or something.
Those holes on a Starfury could be anything. Like previously mentioned, only the lower center two ever fire. The others could be sensors or something.
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
On Viper firepower, I captured the following clip from the Season 1 episode 33 which is probably the most impressive display of destruction from their guns. It's hard to say how much of this is primary damage and how much is secondary explosions, but it's clear that a Viper can cause primary hull failure on a civilian passenger ship that is several hundred meters long (guesstimate).
If we really want a full picture though on BSG firepower, there are several other scenes we'll need. Here are a few off the top of my head:
I can try and grab the relevant scenes from these episodes if people are interested.
If we really want a full picture though on BSG firepower, there are several other scenes we'll need. Here are a few off the top of my head:
- 1) "Blowing up the depot" scene from The Hand of God: This gives us a look at Viper non-nuclear missiles.
2) Battle with the Cylons in The Captain's Hand: We get a nice look at the bow canons on the Pegasus.
3) Cylons attacking Scorpio station in Razor: We get to see the damage caused by nuclear and non-nuclear ordinance of the Cylon Raiders.
4) Battle over New Caprica in Exodus: Part 2: Lots of ship-to-ship combat, probably the gold standard for the series.
5) Final battle in Daybreak: Part 2: This episode is probably most noteable for showing us the upper end of what the nukes that can be carried by a craft as small as a Raptor can do.
I can try and grab the relevant scenes from these episodes if people are interested.
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
That's wrong. 'Hyperion' Heavy Cruisers, the smallest Earth 'warship' we've seen, have jump engines, as seen (particularly) in In the Beginning.Coyote wrote:Things to remember about a nBSG-Colonies/Bab5-EA meetup would be the awesome utility of on-demand FTL for strategic purposes. Only a few of the heaviest EA ships have internal jump capability;
The image of the reaction of Galactica's fleet to being hailed by "Earth Alliance Destroyer Titans" (Ivanova's ship) warms the cockles of my heart.That said, remmeber that a Battlestar can suffer a soft kill, too. If a EA nuke or beam weapon happens to hit the self-replicating water supply of a Battlestar, that whole Battlestar is out of commission. It's got some fragile points on it, if you know where to hit. The water supply was vulnerable to a few blocks of C4 that could be carried in a gym bag by a single woman, albeit it was an internal explosion.
In truth, though, socio-politically, if the Colonies or just the Galactica itself encountered the EA, they'd likely go "Yay! We found the lost 13th Colony!" and they'd expcet the EA to help with the Cylons.
At any time during the events of the series, I expect the EA government would be keen to add about 50% to their habitable planets, and eager to eliminate hostile robots that want to kill all humans, and would thereforeThe EA would be puzzled by all this "lost tribe" nonsense talk, but be interested in the help brought to them by these strange people who seem to have comperable, but still quite different, tech. They'd want help with on-demand FTL small enough to fit in a Raptor, and seek to employ them against the enemy of the week (Centauri, Shadows).
So if you want to play it that way, you might ask how would the EA do if they were helping the Colonies deal with the Cylons,
Which period of the Earth Alliance this is would be interesting; of course, during the Minbari war they'd not be up to much, the rest of the time, they'd be able to pull it off nicely, and Clarke would just love it - hostile robots? Yay.
Or the Minbari.and how would the Colonials do helping the EA against the Shadows and Centauri. I think the only really interesting thing the Colonials could provide would be their FTL tech. The Colonials would have a problem with the stealthing tech of the Shadows, for example.
I'd think, if we're talking about Galactica's exodus fleet, they'd just use Psicorps (or their later equivalent) to weed out the Cylons and probe them for information. Of course, some of the Cylon infiltrators don't know that they are - but the trouble makers do. And the Cavil on Galactica is one of their chief leaders; Bester (or whomever) probing his mind would be a world of hurt for the cylon cause.Politically, they both have head-up-ass problems, though. Both are infiltrated by sleeper agents and both have so much political infighting and factional bickering that limit their effectiveness. Although if Laura Roslin became President of the EA...
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
That in particular is firing at a powerful explosive that detonates.The Kernel wrote:1) "Blowing up the depot" scene from The Hand of God: This gives us a look at Viper non-nuclear missiles.
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
If I remember right, that was actually the whole lynchpin of the operation - that they had to hit the explosive Tylium tanks because their conventional missiles didn't pack enough bang and the nukes would have "deactivated" the Tylium in the asteroid.
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
True, but if I recall correctly, the secondary explosion from the Tylium didn't occur for a few moments after the missile blast. I could be mistaken though...I'll will look up the vids and post them later.Uraniun235 wrote:If I remember right, that was actually the whole lynchpin of the operation - that they had to hit the explosive Tylium tanks because their conventional missiles didn't pack enough bang and the nukes would have "deactivated" the Tylium in the asteroid.
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
Yes. I too recall a few seconds delay between impact and the explosion.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
All Earth Alliance capital warships have jump capability. Since the jump engines require several minutes to recharge after each use, they will use a jump gate if there's one available, but EarthForce is not reliant on jump gates.Coyote wrote:Things to remember about a nBSG-Colonies/Bab5-EA meetup would be the awesome utility of on-demand FTL for strategic purposes. Only a few of the heaviest EA ships have internal jump capability; the rest rely on jump gates which are an extreme vulnerability. Jump gates mostly seem to be built where they are needed and left there, many times with little forces guarding them. If the Colonial Forces were serious about conquering the EA, their first move would be to destroy the jumpgates nad then use their on-demand FTL to piecemeal stranded EA forces in their systems.
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
Ahh, okay. I just remember that one smaller EA ship jumping in through the gate, the guy with the "serious case of testosterone poinsoning"-- and thought that all the smaller ships needed gates.
Interesting, then. So both BSG and EA chips need time to "spool up" their drives, putting them on even status. So the EA would really just be interested in getting an FTL in a Raptor-size ship, which is essentially a heavy fighter/combat shuttle.
Interesting, then. So both BSG and EA chips need time to "spool up" their drives, putting them on even status. So the EA would really just be interested in getting an FTL in a Raptor-size ship, which is essentially a heavy fighter/combat shuttle.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
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Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
I wouldn't put them on quite the same level as BSG ships can execute multiple repeated jumps in quick succession and seems to have greater ability to make pinpoint jumps (such as Galactica jumping into the atmosphere above New Caprica). Also the fact that BSG jumps are instantaneous and are often used to escape from a battle before a missile strike hits without having to open a jump point and then make a slow sublight move into it while under fire.Coyote wrote: Interesting, then. So both BSG and EA chips need time to "spool up" their drives, putting them on even status. So the EA would really just be interested in getting an FTL in a Raptor-size ship, which is essentially a heavy fighter/combat shuttle.
Clearly EA would have loved this tech for tactical jumps in the midst of battle to get around the whole sub-light engagement problem.
Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
The most obvious episode relating to Viper firepower is where they're doing dumb missile target practice on an asteroid, and a missile frags a pretty big (don't remember the size) asteroid easily.
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Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
50 MTons is what's shown on the page. I apologize if that's incorrect, but it is what's there. I can't seem to find any other sites that actually state the yield of the missiles. If you know where I could find one, I'd be in your debt.NecronLord wrote:50 Megatons? What? Where is this stated? When? That wiki site doesn't appear to show any calculations. That's the same as a Base Star's MIRV.
As for B5tech; babtech is almost always more accurate in every respect. B5tech and EFNI almost always use questionable assumptions; like the metals in the series being ten times as thermally resistant as steel... for some reason.
As to babtech, I'd be willing to use them; however, they seem to be lacking in information on Earthforce fighters (the section says "Coming Soon!"). I went with what I could find.
Fair enough. I still think that they're another set of cannon; however, I have no evidence to back that up except for the appearance of both sets of protrusions ("features"? "holes"? whatever...), which is--admittedly--shaky at best.Ted C wrote:Every single example of an Aurora starfury firing its weapons in B5 has shown pulses emerging from two gunports below the cockpit. I don't know what these four ports are on either side of the cockpit, but there's no real evidence that they're pulse cannons.
Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
We had a plan to revise the EarthForce fighter pages a while back, but other priorities have kept it on the back burner. I did put some of the content that I wrote for that page in the ImperialWiki, though.Sheridan wrote:As to babtech, I'd be willing to use them; however, they seem to be lacking in information on Earthforce fighters (the section says "Coming Soon!"). I went with what I could find.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
Re: nBSG compared to Babylon 5
50MT and 50kT are yields given to Cylon orbital bombardment missiles/bombs and nuclear anti-ship missiles, respectively. They're directly lifted from the miniseries' dialog. I'm not sure if anyone did the calcs to confirm the numbers or if there were even any scenes which allowed such confirmation.Marcus Aurelius wrote:50 MT would be one-shot kill against all nBSG and B5 younger race capital ships, at least assuming near detonation or direct hit. I can't think of anything quite that powerful shown in nBSG, although I still haven't seen the last season.NecronLord wrote:50 Megatons? What? Where is this stated? When? That wiki site doesn't appear to show any calculations. That's the same as a Base Star's MIRV.
Presumably, the 50MT ones are severely impractical to use against a space target (perhaps too big, too low acceleration, easy target, etc.) because we've never seen one being used against a ship, including the shipyard where Pegasus was being refitted (and that was an essentially stationary target with minimal, if any defences, which would have been wiped out by a single such nuke, if we take into account the damage 50kT nukes do to Battlestars).