Which sci-fi nation could be beaten by modern military?

[Darth Wong]

The movie Starship Troopers soldiers. They have starships but when they perform surface bombardment, they use fixed-wing aircraft at low altitude. Theoretically, they could do surface bombardment by simply dropping things, but they seem too stupid to figure that out. They have no apparent armoured vehicles. Their landing craft have no apparent weapons, other than a guy shooting out the side door. Their infantry tactics are utterly abysmal. They do not appear to possess any kind of artillery. They do not even use grenades. They took massive casualties when attacking an enemy which had no ranged weapons at all other than giant AA bugs the size of apartment buildings, which should have been easily identified and targeted from high altitude.

Their only advantage appears to be absurdly powerful "nuke" RPGs and fantastic medical technology, which they'll need in order to deal with all of the casualties they'll be sustaining.

[Grif]

The Combine from Half-Life 2.

Seriously, when almost a battalion of their finest troops fail to stop a commando scientist in a hazard suit, it makes you wonder how they won the "Seven Hour War" in the first place. (and they had trouble putting down a rebellion who had nothing heavier than an RPG, though that might come down to the fact that it was essentially urban warfare.)

Their Striders might be a handful for modern tanks though. Not to mention it is heavily implied that they had, at one point, spaceships.

[open_sketchbook]

To be fair, that's like saying "Wow, demons are wusses, they couldn't put down one marine in Doom" I don't think that "effectiveness against the player character" is really a fair benchmark because gameplay comes before internal logic. The Combine, who are just occupational forces and consist mostly of an untested transhuman corps managed a fair job of subjugating the entire world right up until Silent Crowbar Jesus started rearranging their collective internal organs with his gravity manipulator.

[The Grim Squeaker]

The Combine from Half-Life 2.

Seriously, when almost a battalion of their finest troops fail to stop a commando scientist in a hazard suit, it makes you wonder how they won the "Seven Hour War" in the first place. (and they had trouble putting down a rebellion who had nothing heavier than an RPG, though that might come down to the fact that it was essentially urban warfare.)

Their Striders might be a handful for modern tanks though. Not to mention it is heavily implied that they had, at one point, spaceships.

First of all, allmost all of the forces encountered by the player in the game are not Combine forces, they're humans acting alongside the Combine, even the Striders are "homegrown". The Combine "soldiers" in the game are human thugs who joined the Combine (And were "Enhanced" - there's a poster showing their physiology and it's not quite...normal).

The striders are a lot tougher than tanks, if you consider that 1-2 modern RPG's directly hitting a tank can be enough to destroy it (and that in game you're using some sort of futuristic laser guided RPG and that the gunships have rather impressive AA systems to shoot down something of that size and velocity). Never mind the fact that their weapons evaporate tons of brick and steel (entire building walls).

As for Gordon Freeman - It's the hero factor. . Unless you think the Doom demons are paper thin mache (despite wiping out the rest of the base) to give another FPS example .

[Grif]

I see your point. Heh. Perhaps I should just phrase that to just "the transhuman Combine forces from Half-Life 2". Would that be a more fair comparison?

First of all, allmost all of the forces encountered by the player in the game are not Combine forces, they're humans acting alongside the Combine, even the Striders are "homegrown". The Combine "soldiers" in the game are human thugs who joined the Combine (And were "Enhanced" - there's a poster showing their physiology and it's not quite...normal).

They should be considered Combine forces as such no? Auxiliary, maybe, but still part of the Combine.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I see your point. Heh. Perhaps I should just phrase that to just "the transhuman Combine forces from Half-Life 2". Would that be a more fair comparison?

Yes, but i'd still disagree with you. (Since you as the player mainly fight the equilevent of police forces - occupation forces in cities, not a full on military force, at most you see convoys of striders, advisors and gunships).

First of all, allmost all of the forces encountered by the player in the game are not Combine forces, they're humans acting alongside the Combine, even the Striders are "homegrown". The Combine "soldiers" in the game are human thugs who joined the Combine (And were "Enhanced" - there's a poster showing their physiology and it's not quite...normal).

They should be considered Combine forces as such no? Auxiliary, maybe, but still part of the Combine.

They can be, but they're 3d rate auxiliaries. (and still better than a modern military - the average thug has full body armour, a nifty tac radio setup, those grenades and pocketable killbots (that slice and dice)). The better soldiers are much tougher and have space guns that can potentially vaporize a human (that's Gigajoule output unless i'm mistaken).

[lord Martiya]

The Alliance, maybe, though they have a large store of nuclear weapons and were perfectly willing to use them, but OZ/Romefeller? No chance. Leos might not be particularly impressive, but shielded Taurus mobile dolls with beam cannons deployed by the hundreds from orbit? This is setting aside the fact that Zechs could probably solo small battlegroups with the Tallgeese. Wing's high end mobile suits are pretty impressive, and given that OZ/Romefeller control the entire world, they can reasonably be expected to control huge forces.

I don't dispute their technology, and in fact I admitted that they could trash modern military with the old Leo-Aries-Tragos combo if they only could use it well. What I dispute are their tactics: their vehicles can trash tanks and everything else, but before they can finish the job they'd find themselves hit by ATGs and RPGs by infantry they criminally left alone.
Still, I have to admit that I forgot about the Virgo (the shielded MDs), and in the series we never saw if their shields can prevent infantry. In short, I admit that OZ would probably trash our infantry, even if the Virgo are not attacked by some saboteur in OZ uniform (that time the Gundam pilots pulled that trick the controllers were about cancelling the OZ space suits from the target list, they just were too near the MD to make it in time).

[Shroom Man 777]

First of all, allmost all of the forces encountered by the player in the game are not Combine forces, they're humans acting alongside the Combine, even the Striders are "homegrown". The Combine "soldiers" in the game are human thugs who joined the Combine (And were "Enhanced" - there's a poster showing their physiology and it's not quite...normal).

Yeah... they "Combine" people, right?

The striders are a lot tougher than tanks, if you consider that 1-2 modern RPG's directly hitting a tank can be enough to destroy it (and that in game you're using some sort of futuristic laser guided RPG and that the gunships have rather impressive AA systems to shoot down something of that size and velocity). Never mind the fact that their weapons evaporate tons of brick and steel (entire building walls).

Other tanks, even in the Vietnam War era, can withstand dozens of RPGs hitting them to no effect. Modern Abrams can also withstand shitloads of RPGs. Maybe you meant modern ATGMs instead of RPGs?

Anyway, as for how many shots it takes to kill a Strider, don't game mechanics sorta not-count? Since it's not like Gordon Freeman himself succumbs to realistic damage proportions when he's, like, repeatedly shot in the face or something.

As for Gordon Freeman - It's the hero factor. . Unless you think the Doom demons are paper thin mache (despite wiping out the rest of the base) to give another FPS example .

[The Grim Squeaker]

First of all, allmost all of the forces encountered by the player in the game are not Combine forces, they're humans acting alongside the Combine, even the Striders are "homegrown". The Combine "soldiers" in the game are human thugs who joined the Combine (And were "Enhanced" - there's a poster showing their physiology and it's not quite...normal).

Yeah... they "Combine" people, right?

I couldn't find the original screencap from the game, but there's a poster in game which shows it :

The striders are a lot tougher than tanks, if you consider that 1-2 modern RPG's directly hitting a tank can be enough to destroy it (and that in game you're using some sort of futuristic laser guided RPG and that the gunships have rather impressive AA systems to shoot down something of that size and velocity). Never mind the fact that their weapons evaporate tons of brick and steel (entire building walls).

Other tanks, even in the Vietnam War era, can withstand dozens of RPGs hitting them to no effect. Modern Abrams can also withstand shitloads of RPGs. Maybe you meant modern ATGMs instead of RPGs?

Er, yeah, that .
Dammit, i'm out of the military and not a translator anymore, I can confuse rockets, missiles, RPG's, Kinetic kill devices and bloody bazookas if I want!

Anyway, as for how many shots it takes to kill a Strider, don't game mechanics sorta not-count?

Of course they don't, but it's a basic example .

Since it's not like Gordon Freeman himself succumbs to realistic damage proportions when he's, like, repeatedly shot in the face or something.

He has the excuse of the armour (which is practically a miniature bacta tank) and his beard protecting him. (and a lot of screencaps from the original game show him with a helmet on).

As for Gordon Freeman - It's the hero factor. . Unless you think the Doom demons are paper thin mache (despite wiping out the rest of the base) to give another FPS example .

[Grif]

Other tanks, even in the Vietnam War era, can withstand dozens of RPGs hitting them to no effect. Modern Abrams can also withstand shitloads of RPGs. Maybe you meant modern ATGMs instead of RPGs?

Anyway, as for how many shots it takes to kill a Strider, don't game mechanics sorta not-count? Since it's not like Gordon Freeman himself succumbs to realistic damage proportions when he's, like, repeatedly shot in the face or something.

We still have to start somewhere. In-game mechanics are as good as any.

One question for those who are learned here, how many these ATGMs are required to take out a modern Abrams? Wiki doesn't shed light on the matter.

He has the excuse of the armour (which is practically a miniature bacta tank) and his beard protecting him. (and a lot of screencaps from the original game show him with a helmet on).

He must had some sort of magic forcefield protecting his face.

[RedImperator]

Cheap answer: Signs aliens. Jesus Christ, man that was shit.

Well, obviously any actually beaten by Earth's military count. Even though they had orbital superiority.

Lets just use ones that have the pretext of competancy- everyone else is at least smart enough not to land ground troops naked and without weapons on a planets whose atmosphere is acid.

Come to think of it, is there any aliens who are worse than those in signs?

I don't think so. The Signs aliens really don't make any sense except as a warrior-initiation rite, or maybe some kind of punishment battalion.

One thing about them, though: the film implies water is like acid to them, but if that's the case, the humidity in the air (the film took place in Bucks County, PA, in the summer, and Bucks County in the summer is a sauna) and the sweat on their victims' skin should be hurting them. I wonder if there was something in the water the caused the damage--chlorine, for example. Even if water isn't actually their Achilles' Heel, though, they could still be crushed by...well, anyone. Joachim Phoenix's character beat one to death with a baseball bat, and Mel Gibson cut one's fingers off with a kitchen knife. Cro-Magnons with spear-throwers could whip them.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Other tanks, even in the Vietnam War era, can withstand dozens of RPGs hitting them to no effect. Modern Abrams can also withstand shitloads of RPGs. Maybe you meant modern ATGMs instead of RPGs?

Anyway, as for how many shots it takes to kill a Strider, don't game mechanics sorta not-count? Since it's not like Gordon Freeman himself succumbs to realistic damage proportions when he's, like, repeatedly shot in the face or something.

We still have to start somewhere. In-game mechanics are as good as any.

True that.

One question for those who are learned here, how many these ATGMs are required to take out a modern Abrams? Wiki doesn't shed light on the matter.

That's because the answers varies immensely based on a number of factors, including where it hits. There's no real definitive answer (at least, not as far as I know, on public databases and not research by the firms making the tanks) (Almost all modern tanks are fucked by most halfway modern missile weapons coming from above for example, unless they have something like a the TROPHY system).
Secondly, we don't know what the rockets are equilevent too, beyond the fact that they have guidance systems lightyears ahead of anything we have in existence.

[Shroom Man 777]

What? It's not like modern ATGMs can't be guided optically. It's just that Half-Life ATGMs are piss-slow so they can maneuver a lot to hit targets at a relatively close range while real-life ATGMs would be rocketing off far away by then.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The striders are a lot tougher than tanks, if you consider that 1-2 modern RPG's directly hitting a tank can be enough to destroy it (and that in game you're using some sort of futuristic laser guided RPG and that the gunships have rather impressive AA systems to shoot down something of that size and velocity). Never mind the fact that their weapons evaporate tons of brick and steel (entire building walls).

Other tanks, even in the Vietnam War era, can withstand dozens of RPGs hitting them to no effect. Modern Abrams can also withstand shitloads of RPGs. Maybe you meant modern ATGMs instead of RPGs?

Not all RPGs are created equal. The Soviets continuously improved the warhead design of the RPG-7 (which is what most people think when they talk about an RPG) and later they also designed new models such as the RPG-29. The latter can kill Vietnam Era tanks such as M48A3 and M60A1 with a single hit from any aspect, but a kill is not always guaranteed, because with HEAT warhead there is always the possibility that the "jet" does not hit anything vital inside the tank. But still the RPG-29 is by all accounts more effective than most 1970's or early 1980's ATGMs. With the latest warheads the RPG-7 is only slightly less effective; the biggest difference is range.

[Marcus Aurelius]

What? It's not like modern ATGMs can't be guided optically. It's just that Half-Life ATGMs are piss-slow so they can maneuver a lot to hit targets at a relatively close range while real-life ATGMs would be rocketing off far away by then.

There are some real-life ATGMs specifically designed for close range combat. The French Eryx is probably the best example, since it also has quite good maneuvering capability and it can be guided closer than most ATGMs (to 50 meters; for most others the minimum guided distance is 100-300 meters).

[Starglider]

The Combine have more conventional military units that were seen in the game, but not directly fought. For example a tank equivalent and self-propelled artillery. The striders are just light scout units. They have the full range of personal weapons, light (emplaced pulse rifles) and heavy (the triple-autogun emplacement) machine guns, APCs, transport and gunship helicopters, emplaced beam weapons (the 'suppression device') and large towed artillery (the headcrab shell launchers). The problem the Combine faced quashing the rebellion was exactly the same problem Skynet faced, or for that matter the Israeli army in Lebanon; you can blast the buildings into rubble, but that just gives the insurgents a place to hide, and they have numerical superiority. I'm sure that they would have eventually starved the rebels out or escalated to WMDs, had Freeman not destroyed their command center.

In the original seven hour war, the Combine could beam large chunks of earth into the void, and beam huge structures from their own world directly onto earth. The Citadels (huge skyscraper like region command centers) just appeared in the middle of cities, destroying what was already there. I strongly suspect they could make military bases and carrier groups vanish the same way, or at the very least teleport nuke-equivalents (probably dark energy based) into strongpoints.

[cosmicalstorm]

I'm thinking we would be able to give the Fithp from Footfall a pretty good fight, though to be realistic we would probably lose in the end..

[Sarevok]

I'm thinking we would be able to give the Fithp from Footfall a pretty good fight, though to be realistic we would probably lose in the end..

To be fair they were designed to be beatable by a 20th century military force.

[Samuel]

I'm thinking we would be able to give the Fithp from Footfall a pretty good fight, though to be realistic we would probably lose in the end..

To be fair they were designed to be beatable by a 20th century military force.

Without orbital support they are because their invasion plan hinged on using it to prevent the enemy from massing armor to field against them. Given they had to build their army from scratch to take Earth they can be partly forgiven.

[Grif]

In the original seven hour war, the Combine could beam large chunks of earth into the void, and beam huge structures from their own world directly onto earth. The Citadels (huge skyscraper like region command centers) just appeared in the middle of cities, destroying what was already there. I strongly suspect they could make military bases and carrier groups vanish the same way, or at the very least teleport nuke-equivalents (probably dark energy based) into strongpoints.

Wouldn't that be akin to orbital bombardment as specified in the OP? Without the said teleportation power, the Combine, though still powerful, would be more of an even footing with a modern military. (at least the ones left on Earth at the time of Half-Life 2. I rather not speculate on the actual power of the full Combine military machine).

The striders are just light scout units.

Err, where was it stated that Striders were only light scout units?

[Ford Prefect]

I don't dispute their technology, and in fact I admitted that they could trash modern military with the old Leo-Aries-Tragos combo if they only could use it well. What I dispute are their tactics: their vehicles can trash tanks and everything else, but before they can finish the job they'd find themselves hit by ATGs and RPGs by infantry they criminally left alone.
Still, I have to admit that I forgot about the Virgo (the shielded MDs), and in the series we never saw if their shields can prevent infantry. In short, I admit that OZ would probably trash our infantry, even if the Virgo are not attacked by some saboteur in OZ uniform (that time the Gundam pilots pulled that trick the controllers were about cancelling the OZ space suits from the target list, they just were too near the MD to make it in time).

While Wing gets a lot of shit for having fairly useless enemies, when I watched it I never got the impression they were tactically inert. We're not exactly looking at a Hannibal/Iskandar tag-team or anything, but within the bounds of the series do demonstrate that the understand stuff like maneuver warfare, ambushes, air support and so on. Ultimately, I think the modern world probably could score a win on the Alliance, though almost certainly not OZ. It was my mistake regarding the name of the Virgo, but the Taurus is pretty impressive as well (not that OZ uses it under gravity, but hey). Given the precision and speed of your average mobile doll, and given how OZ can absorb basically limitless MD casulaties - the modern world is not likely to destroy them as fast as can build them - it seems likely that their ability to strike basically anywhere in the world will allow them to take the win. Unfortunately, we don't have the Lightning Count patrolling the heavens.

[Starglider]

Wouldn't that be akin to orbital bombardment as specified in the OP?

Technically no. Reasonably, yes.

Without the said teleportation power, the Combine, though still powerful, would be more of an even footing with a modern military.

The HLverse human nations were also devastated by portal storms. With a conventional invasion and no use of nuke-equivalents it would probably take 7 months to pacify the whole planet, rather than 7 days.

Err, where was it stated that Striders were only light scout units?

It isn't, but what other rationale is there for having a ludicrously unstable and high signature platform with heavy beam and anti-infantry weapons but relatively light armor? The only real value of it is to be able to traverse very rough terrain and use its high vantage point to shoot down on infantry hiding in cover - quite handy for suppressing rebellions, particularly with the added psychological intimidation factor, but pretty worthless for conventional warfare. MBTs would be picking those things off with single shots. The status of the crab walkers as heavily armed and armoured MBT equivalents is technically non-canon, because they were cut from gameplay (reduced to scenery), but frankly what else could they be?

It's interesting that the combine have static forcefields generated by fairly compact projectors (some of which pass inorganic material - the security barriers - and some of which don't - the energy bridges and teleporter containment fields), but no shielding on their vehicles. This is speculation of course, but I would not be surprised if their heavier military vehicles do carry shielding.

[Ford Prefect]

Also, there is a newspaper clipping from around the time of the Seven Hour War outside Kleiner's lab which depicts a Strider which is about three or four times the height as the models encountered in game. It's standing next to the United Nations Secretariat Building and is at least two thirds of the building's height.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Wouldn't that be akin to orbital bombardment as specified in the OP?

Technically no. Reasonably, yes.

Without the said teleportation power, the Combine, though still powerful, would be more of an even footing with a modern military.

The HLverse human nations were also devastated by portal storms.

Nitpick - the portal storms fucked over Earth's ecosystems by letting Xen-universe animals in, it made people congregate in the cities which wasn't a problem until the storms let the Combine make portals large enough to let their real forces in.

With a conventional invasion and no use of nuke-equivalents it would probably take 7 months to pacify the whole planet, rather than 7 days.

It took 7 HOURS. /Nitpick.

[bilateralrope]

I'm sure that they would have eventually starved the rebels out or escalated to WMDs, had Freeman not destroyed their command center.

The combine didn't even need to fight the rebels. All they needed to was keep the breeding suppression field up and wait for humanity to die of old age.