SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread

[Siege]

Is your NF 2 or 3 again? Because that many battleships and heavy cruisers doesn't sound right for an NF 2 with just 300,000T of ships.

It is 2; I edited the fleet list to reflect this sentiment.

[Raj Ahten]

When Choosing historical designs, do we go with their nominal displacement or their "full load" displacement?

[Thanas]

Steve, how much of our ships have to be in existence from before/at 1917? Does this apply to all ship classes (AKA X percent from light cruisers, x percent from BBs etc) or is it just a general tonnage limit?

[Norade]

Sea Command:

Modern Vessels: 1013.6
-4 Gigante-class Battleships (PSS Mitológico [Laid in 1920 in service for 1925], PSS Adamastor [Laid in 1921 in service for 1924, PSS Moura Encantada [Laid in 1918 in service for 1921, PSS Gigante [Laid in 1916 in service for 1919])
--50kt Dreadnoughts
---200kt total
-8 Cidade class Battleships (Laid in pairs from 1914-1916, all in service since 1919)
--28kt per ship
---224kt total
-8 Cidade class Heavy Cruisers, fast (Laid in 1917-1920, all in service since 1923)
--28kt per ship, faster version of the models made in 1914.
---224kt total
-12 Rapid class Cruisers (First laid in 1916 – Last laid in 1922, all in service by 1925)
--15.4kt per ship, design is based on speed and speed increases every year
---185.6kts
-50 Class-3 Destroyers (1919 – 1924, last commissioned for late 1924)
--2.1kt each, 27.4kts, 14kts 4500nm cruise range
---105kt total
-20 Cruiser class Submarines [Project 47a as Basis] (1916 – Present all but four already in service)
--2.5kt each, 21kts surface, 12 kts submerged, Surface Range 7,000nm at 12kts, submerged 100nm at 8kts
---50kt total
-50 Layer class Submarine minelayers [UC II as basis] (1914 – 1918)
--0.5kt each, 11kts surfaced, 7kts submerged, 5,000nm at 5kts
---25kt total

Obsolete Vessels: 486
-8 Portugal-class Dreadnoughts (Laid in pairs starting in 1906, ending in 1910, all in service by 1913)
--24kt per ship
---192kt total
-6 Watchkeeper-class Battleships (1904 – 1910, last entering service in 1912)
--15kt each
---90kt total
-24 Colony-class Cruisers (Laid rapidly from 1906 to 1912, last entering service in 1915)
--7kt per ship
---168kt total
-20 Class-2 Destroyers (1904 – 1910, last entering service in 1912)
--1.8kt each
---36kt total

Other Vessels: 500 of 500
-4 Reliable class troop transport ships, converted ocean liners (Ships laid in 1890, converted for military use in 1911)
--50kt transports
---200kt total
-6 Refresher class Coilers
--25kt Coilers
---150kt total
-4 Quencher class Oilers
--25kt oilers
---100kt total
-5 Firestorm class Ammunition ships
--10kt each
---50kt total


Land Command:
-840,000 regular soldiers total
--400,000 general infantry men (200,000 at home, 100,000 in Nigeria, 50,000 in South America, 50,000 dispersed elsewhere)
--340,000 Logistics (50,000 at home, 25,000 in Nigeria, 12,500 in South America, 12,500 dispersed elsewhere)
--30,000 Engineers (10,000 at home, 10,000 in Nigeria, 7,500 in South America, 2,500 dispersed elsewhere)
--30,000 Cavalry (12,000 at home, 12,000 in Nigeria, 4,500 in South America, 1,500 dispersed elsewhere)
--30,000 Vehicle Corps/Aviators (12,000 at home, 12,000 in Nigeria, 4,500 in South America, 1,500 dispersed elsewhere)
--10,000 Specialists & Officers (5,000 at home, 2,500 in Nigeria, 1,250 in South America, 1,250 dispersed elsewhere)

-15 Artillery Brigades
-5 Heavy Arillery Brigades
-15 Infantry Motor Brigades (75,000 soldiers) (6 in Portugal, 6 in Nigeria, 2 in South America, 1 elsewhere)
-15 Armored Recon Battalions
-5 Armored Brigades

Air Command:
-100 monoplanes, modern engines producing between 500 and 700hp, average speed 270mph, 4x .50 caliber MG's
-100 biplane, outdated technology, slated to be phased out by 1927, top out at 400hp and 200mph, 2x .303 caliber MG's
-60 twin engine bombers, short range, top speed 200mph, 1,400hp total, ceiling 25,000ft, 1x tail mounted .50 caliber MG, 1x Wing mounted .50 caliber MG, Payload 10,000lb. of bombs
-60 four engine bombers, longer range, top speed 160mph, 2,400hp total, ceiling 25,000ft, 1x tail mounted dual .50 caliber MG, 1x Wing mounted dual .50 caliber MG, Payload 25,000lb. of bombs
-40 sea planes for naval use, modern engines producing between 500 and 700hp, average speed 280mph, 2x .50 caliber MG's, 2,000lb. of bombs

[Steve]

Well, I want to reflect that some countries are behind others in aeronautic technology. If you think the difference should be more "Air Tech Level 4 = cutting edge 1925 aircraft available, Air Tech Level 3 is only 1920-1922 level aircraft', then that's something to consider.

I've contemplating requiring someone to spend IBPs (industrial build points, such to avoid confusion with Industry points from the country generation rules) to advance certain technology. But I'm not sure of quantity of points or length of time, since advancements would require model testing, prototype flights, etc. It may be something better left RPed.

And nobody should have armored divisions. I'm just not sure what you'd call a division with an armored brigade and two infantry, assuming 3 was the general strength (I know that varied by country). But only armored brigades should be available, not divisions.

[Norseman]

Yes! Keep it RP'ed! Seriously! No more number crunching please!

Except that we do need some rules for keeping units in supply, as well as some reason for why we should keep units in reserve rather than have an enormous army that counts for 10% of our population.

[Steve]

Infrastructure lends itself to supply limits. As for RPing tech advancement, sure, but I will watch for people tech-rushing with full hindsight on. And even if I don't quantify it, industrial and econ scores would play a role in how fast you can advance.

Thanas, makes more sense I agree for subs and destroyers to be more new, maybe only a third or a quarter older then ten years. Cruisers are larger, but may feasibly be in the same schedule. Capital ships, however, are more precious and I think everyone should be using some that are still old, even if as colonial guard ships while the main battle fleet is kept in home waters. Maybe some anti-commerce raider battlecruisers in forward bases to be capable of swifter deployment in time of war.


Raj, I'm going with Standard or Light displacement. The former loads everything but fuel and reserve feedwater, the latter counts only the ship and guns and such, but no stores, ammo, or fuel. Leaning toward Standard honestly.

[Thanas]

Infrastructure lends itself to supply limits. As for RPing tech advancement, sure, but I will watch for people tech-rushing with full hindsight on. And even if I don't quantify it, industrial and econ scores would play a role in how fast you can advance.

So a 2/3 new, 1/3 old BB ratio is acceptable, as this is what Norade has posted, or would I need to limit that.

And I would favor standard displacement.

EDIT: Also, how do ocean liners count?

[Raj Ahten]

Raj, I'm going with Standard or Light displacement. The former loads everything but fuel and reserve feedwater, the latter counts only the ship and guns and such, but no stores, ammo, or fuel. Leaning toward Standard honestly.

Thanks for the clarification.

[K. A. Pital]

I used standard displacement for all calculations. Also, metric tons.

[Minister of Pigeonry]

Well, I want to reflect that some countries are behind others in aeronautic technology. If you think the difference should be more "Air Tech Level 4 = cutting edge 1925 aircraft available, Air Tech Level 3 is only 1920-1922 level aircraft', then that's something to consider.

Opening aircraft from '20-'22 for Tech 3 would be nice. WWI aircraft became obsolete very quickly. In the '20-'22 range you start to see better engines, higher armament, monoplanes become more common and metal skinning starts to emerge.

If you are Army tech level of 4, then starting out you can have 3 infantry-motorized brigades, 3 armored recon battalions, and 1 armored brigade for every industry score point (As in, having a 3 in Industry means 9 infantry-motor brigades and 3 armored brigades). You can organize them as you wish, save that armored divisions - 2 armor brigades and an infantry brigade - are not yet allowed beyond one single testing unit (like Stas'). If your army tech level is 3, then you can have 1 armored brigade for every two industry points, rounding up at the top (Industry 2 needed for at least one, Industry 4 for two, and Industry 5 gives three). I'm not yet prepared to limit artillery brigades at tech levels above 1.

Interesting, so, with an Army Tech level of 3 and an Ind score of 3 Spain can field one Armored Brigade (likely going to be those Fiat 3Ks). Since I've only got Tech 3 I can't yet field Armored Recon units. But how many Motorized (riding in unarmored trucks) Infantry Brigades can I field with Tech level 3? If it scales down from Tech 4 then that would be 3 Motorized Infantry Brigades per two Ind points so I'd get 3 and the rest of the Army/Marines have to hoof it or use horses.

So Tech 4:
3 Motorized Infantry Brigades
3 Armored Recon Battalions (Roughly a Brigade and a half?)
1 Armored Brigade
Per 1 Ind Score Point

Tech 3:
3 Motorized Infantry Brigades
1 Armored Brigade
Per 2 Ind Score Points

Tech 2:
2 Motorized Infantry Brigades
Per 3 Ind Score Points??

Just theorizing.

Final thing I'd like to know; are we allowed a certain amount of tonnage for Auxiliary ships? Oilers, Transports, Landing Craft, etc.? I remember it was discussed but no set figure was given. Going by Norade's fleet here he's got about 500,000 in Aux vessels, would that scale 500K for NF 5, 400K for NF4, 300K for NF 3, so on and so forth?

[Steve]

Hrm.... yeah, I think that's what I'll do, will rework figures later.

As for Motorized forces, I really wasn't planning any being permitted for Land Tech 3 save experimental units.... so say the same rate as armored forces to reflect the early experimentation with motorized infantry. As in, 1 brigade of armored and of motorized per 2 industry points, allowing three of each at 5 industry.

[Minister of Pigeonry]

Hrm.... yeah, I think that's what I'll do, will rework figures later.

As for Motorized forces, I really wasn't planning any being permitted for Land Tech 3 save experimental units.... so say the same rate as armored forces to reflect the early experimentation with motorized infantry. As in, 1 brigade of armored and of motorized per 2 industry points, allowing three of each at 5 industry.

Alrighty, one of each, sounds good.

[Norade]

I didn't really go by a rule for my auxiliaries, I just used a 3rd of my fleet tonnage and hoped it was good.

[Steve]

Third works fine I think, unless someone begs differently. Frankly I'm not going to get too worked up over auxiliaries as long as people don't go insane and use common sense.

Of course, given some of you lot, that's why we need mods....

Anyway.... what I was about to post before I had a net outage:


Not sure I would count liners, that's primarily commercial construction. I suppose you could say you've contracted a warship yard for one if you don't need it and want to keep the workers active.

I'm not sure if I want to let more than half a battleship fleet be less than ten years old, if only because it'll encourage having almost all new designs with a few old ones thrown in for good measure.

As for shipyard capacity figures, Skimmer gave me the idea of keeping raw tonnage figures for smaller ships but over 25,000 we'd have slipway counts, plus maybe tonnage. But to reduce number-crunching....

Every NF point from 3 to 5 gives you two slipways capable of building 40kT to, eventually, 55kT ships and 3 slipways for ships from 25,000-40,000kT. Note the figure begins at 3, a 3 NF would give 2 40kT-55kT slips and 3 25-40kT slips and a 5 NF would five 6 40-55kT slips and 9 25-40s. Basically that's 2 dreadnoughts and 3 battlecruisers/fast battleships laid per year for a 5 NF state as an absolute max.

For lighter ships, the original capacity rules apply, though I'll be reducing them to make 200,000T the max capacity.

I'm open to suggestion on whether to also grant a simialr number, or half that number, of extra yards that are only for repair or refitting existing ships, or whether they should be the same as construction yards (if so I may raise the number of yards then, and a player then has to make the careful decision on whether to use them for new units or for refitting old ones.

[Steve]

http://sdnworld.wikia.com/wiki/SDN_World_3_Ruleset

What I hope to be the penultimate update. Only have mobilization left to figure out. If I don't soon, well, fuck it, we'll wing it.

Anyway, a note. SML lays out the general proportion of army in Standing and Reserve forces, but if you feel your Standing Army is "too large", feel free to shift more into the Reserve. The only limit in SML is the cap on how big your Standing forces are. You can voluntarily shift more into Reserve if you desire it.

[Thanas]

If anyone wants to have german pre-dreads, drop me a PM. I am willing to have gotten rid of them say, around 1912-19.

Coincidentally, how much do pre-dreads cost? Half tonnage or something like that?

[Steve]

If anyone wants to have german pre-dreads, drop me a PM. I am willing to have gotten rid of them say, around 1912-19.

Coincidentally, how much do pre-dreads cost? Half tonnage or something like that?

Cost? As in against national fleet totals? I wasn't going to give them any reduction, though I suppose that since they're old any remaining ones could be considered three-quarters or something.

[Agent Sorchus]

If anyone wants to have german pre-dreads, drop me a PM. I am willing to have gotten rid of them say, around 1912-19.

Coincidentally, how much do pre-dreads cost? Half tonnage or something like that?

Cost? As in against national fleet totals? I wasn't going to give them any reduction, though I suppose that since they're old any remaining ones could be considered three-quarters or something.

Don't actually reduce the cost any, they are still good old gun platforms. What people can do is refit the ships so that they count towards the 1/3 auxiliary fleet units. Historically that is what pre dreads ended their career as.

[Beowulf]

I slammed my mighty hammer Modnir down upon Mongolia and gave it enough arable land that, with imports, it can sustain 75 million people. Done.

In accordance with this ruling, and discussion with Steve, the Tarim Basin is now the Tarim Sea, of approximately the same size as the Caspian Sea. This should generally produce enough rainfall to result in more arable land to the northeast, with the monsoon pattern (winds from the south west in the summer, north east in winter).

[Raj Ahten]

One more type of unit we may want to list build costs for is Engineer/Pioneer units. Alternatively we could also just assume they cost as much as infantry does.

[Norseman]

One more type of unit we may want to list build costs for is Engineer/Pioneer units. Alternatively we could also just assume they cost as much as infantry does.

I just kind of assumed they were integral to the army as a whole, since I really don't want to get bogged down in too many unit types.

[Raj Ahten]

One more type of unit we may want to list build costs for is Engineer/Pioneer units. Alternatively we could also just assume they cost as much as infantry does.

I just kind of assumed they were integral to the army as a whole, since I really don't want to get bogged down in too many unit types.

Yeah I guess that is probably the best way to go if we are keeping things rules light.

[Thanas]

One more type of unit we may want to list build costs for is Engineer/Pioneer units. Alternatively we could also just assume they cost as much as infantry does.

I just kind of assumed they were integral to the army as a whole, since I really don't want to get bogged down in too many unit types.

In my general army breakdown I have pioneer, engineer as specialized infantry brigades, which will probably be dispersed in real unit organization, but for a general breakdown (X dedicated to pioneer) etc. is it.

[Thanas]

On the topic of support: Support has to count. Otherwise I will be fielding a 1.2 million total standing army. Completely unrealistic.

I have dedicated 25% support, which IMO is the minimum.