Picking apart "Canada's Healthcare Disaster" - e-mail

[Kodiak]

So, I got in my inbox this morning an e-mail from an uber-conservative friend of mine titled "Canada's Healthcare Disaster" and I was hoping people more knowledgeable about the Canadian system could help me separate fact from fiction.

After more than a decade of public healthcare with mandatory coverage, so many Canadian doctors have left the practice and so many young people have entered other fields that Canada ranks 26th of 28 developed nations in its ratio of physicians to population. Once, Canada ranked among the leaders in the number of physicians, but that was before government healthcare drove doctors out of the practice in droves.

The fundamental fact is that we cannot cover 36 million new patients without more doctors and nurses, much less with the declining census of medical professionals the Canadian experience points to. A recent survey of doctors by the Pew Institute found that 45 percent of all practicing doctors would consider retiring or closing their practices if the Obama healthcare bill passes. This scarcity of medical personnel heightens the likelihood of draconian rationing, lengthy waiting lists and lower-quality medical care for all of us, particularly for the elderly.

This physician shortage leads to massive and never-ending waiting lists. In 1993, for example, there was an average wait of 9.3 weeks from the time a patient got a referral from a general practitioner to the time he could see a specialist. By 1997, the wait was up to 11.7 weeks. Now it’s 17.3 weeks — over four months just to see a specialist!

In Canada, unions control the entire healthcare process. In Manitoba, for example, there is an eight-month wait for colonoscopies, yet the unions do not permit weekend or evening procedures, thereby extending the waiting lists. The unions are doing to healthcare in Canada what they have done to education in America: stifling creativity, reinforcing bureaucracy and extending waiting times.

Because of these long waits for colonoscopies, there is now a 25 percent higher incidence of colon cancer in Canada than in the United States. And because the leading drugs that we routinely use to treat the malady in the U.S. are banned in Canada because of their high cost, 41 percent of Canadians who get the cancer die of it, compared with only 32 percent in the United States. Overall, the cancer death rate in Canada runs 16 percent higher than in the United States. Cancer does not wait for waiting lists to clear.

The potential of healthcare changes to shrink the doctor population, exacerbating scarcity and extending waits, is even worse now that it is apparent we have overestimated the number of doctors in the U.S. Where we once thought there were 840,000 doctors, the total is now estimated to be only 760,000.

The proposed $400 billion cut in Medicare raises the probability that more and more of those doctors who do practice will refuse to accept Medicare patients, aggravating the doctor shortage among the elderly, the population that needs them the most.

As Obama’s program moves through Congress, despite the fierce opposition of a majority of American voters in virtually all the polls, it becomes clear that those moderates who vote for it will face harsh retribution at the polls from their outraged constituents. A kind of suicide-pact mentality is gripping the Democratic majorities in Congress, akin to that which came over it when Congress passed President Bill Clinton’s tax package in 1993. This disregard for the will of the marginal voter may make sense for those who come from safe districts, but it makes none for those who come from swing districts. For them, suicidal conduct leads to political demise.

Morris, a former adviser to Sen. Trent Lott (R-Miss.) and President Bill Clinton, is the author of Outrage and Fleeced. To get all of his and Eileen McGann’s columns for free by e-mail or to order a signed copy of their new best-selling book, Catastrophe, go to dickmorris.com. In August, Morris became a strategist for the League of American Voters, which is running ads opposing the president’s healthcare reforms.

The article is basically saying that because healthcare is so bad in Canada people have to wait 4 months to see a specialist and that colon cancer incidence is 25% higher in Canada and has a higher fatality rate. I appreciate it if some of our friendly Canadians could comment on this

[Darth Wong]

Jesus fucking Christ, this imbecile claims that Canada only adopted government-run health care a decade ago. He can't even get past his first sentence without an incredibly obvious lie. Why should anyone pay any credence to the rest of his claims? They're probably all outright lies. This article probably has the same factual and medical accuracy as a penis enhancement spam E-mail.

As a general rule, "waiting list" arguments about Canada seize upon the fact that low priority patients tend to wait a long time. High priority patients get in quickly, but that distinction is lost upon Americans who automatically think of waiting lists as independent of medical priority (and instead dependent upon your ability to pay).

[Gaidin]

As a general rule, "waiting list" arguments about Canada seize upon the fact that low priority patients tend to wait a long time. High priority patients get in quickly, but that distinction is lost upon Americans who automatically think of waiting lists as independent of medical priority (and instead dependent upon your ability to pay).

Kinda reminds me of the time I waited five months to see my neurologist and I live in Kentucky. Oh wait...

[Darth Wong]

It's not hard to see why he's pretending Canadian government-run health care is only a decade old. In the 1990s the federal government started cutting back on health-care funding to the provinces in order to balance its budget and control the debt problem. Quite a few negative health-care trends did indeed start around that time, although overall quality of care in Canada is still just as good as that of insured people in the US, never mind uninsured people who get no care.

Of course, it doesn't suit this right-wing asshole to blame those trends on fiscal belt-tightening, so instead he blames them on government-run health care, by pretending that Canada did not have government-run health care before that.

[Artemas]

About the only thing he gets right, is that Canada does indeed have less doctors per population than most other developed countries.

[dr. what]

Canada ranks 26th of 28 developed nations in its ratio of physicians to population.

http://www.olis.oecd.org/olis/2009doc.n ... 267652.PDF

According to the 2007 figures, Canada is at 27th place at 2.2 doctors per 1000.

But the US is at 24th place with 2.4 doctors.

Oh--almost all the top ten are European countries.

[Darth Wong]

Canada and the US both have the same problem, and it's pretty much entirely the fault of the US: its market-driven system resulted in extremely high pay for doctors, thus limiting the supply. Doctors in Europe are paid much less.

[General Trelane (Retired)]

About the only thing he gets right, is that Canada does indeed have less doctors per population than most other developed countries.

One of the reasons for that is the constant "brain drain" of doctors heading south to the USA for better pay. To assert that the same thing would happen in the USA if their system went public is sheer stupidity. Although it may slow down the brain drain, which I guess would equate to fewer doctors in the USA.

[dr. what]

Hmmmm--seems that this e-mail has been bouncing around the internet for a while now and a lot of people have weighed in with all the mistakes in the piece.

From here http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009 ... 21-cp.html

In his piece in The Hill this week, Morris wrote that there's a 25 per cent higher incidence of colon cancer in Canada than in the United States. Other estimates have put the difference at closer to 10 per cent.

"And because the leading drugs that we routinely use to treat the malady in the U.S. are banned in Canada because of their high cost, 41 per cent of Canadians who get the cancer die of it, compared with only 32 per cent in the United States," Morris wrote.

He was apparently referring to Erbitux, a colon cancer medication that Bristol-Myers Squibbs refused to sell in Canada because the government board that regulates the cost of patented medicines ruled the price was too high.

In September, the drug company relented and agreed to sell it in Canada at a price lower than it sells in the U.S., where a month of the drug can set a patient back US$10,000.

The United States is the only country in the developed world that lets pharmaceutical countries charge what they want for drugs. Other countries, including Canada, either limit drug prices or the industry's profits.

I'm going to keep searching for other refutations - I'm sure somebody must have put everything together into one handy-dandy list.

[Themightytom]

About the only thing he gets right, is that Canada does indeed have less doctors per population than most other developed countries.

One of the reasons for that is the constant "brain drain" of doctors heading south to the USA for better pay. To assert that the same thing would happen in the USA if their system went public is sheer stupidity. Although it may slow down the brain drain, which I guess would equate to fewer doctors in the USA.

There's a brain drain to here??? I have had no less than twelve clients in two years who are doctors in other countries who aren't able to practice here.

I always figured that the OTHER market driven debacle, our education system, was functioning as a barrier to those who had not ivnested in it here.

Edit: "Brain Drain to here"?

[UCBooties]

A statsitic I often see in these e-mails is the claim that almost half of our Doctors will quit or retire if government healthcare becomes a reality. Assuming this is true, (which, yeah, I don't), has anyone asked these people why they would feel forced to retire or quit?

[The Spartan]

A statsitic I often see in these e-mails is the claim that almost half of our Doctors will quit or retire if government healthcare becomes a reality. Assuming this is true, (which, yeah, I don't), has anyone asked these people why they would feel forced to retire or quit?

The one I've heard is money. They'll quit or, get this, move to Mexico because of a loss of income.

[Samuel]

Canada and the US both have the same problem, and it's pretty much entirely the fault of the US: its market-driven system resulted in extremely high pay for doctors, thus limiting the supply. Doctors in Europe are paid much less.

Wouldn't that encourage people to become doctors by raising the incentive for potential applicants?

A recent survey of doctors by the Pew Institute found that 45 percent of all practicing doctors would consider retiring or closing their practices if the Obama healthcare bill passes.

...Why? I'm pretty sure that all UHC does is changes who is paying for the service.

Overall, the cancer death rate in Canada runs 16 percent higher than in the United States. Cancer does not wait for waiting lists to clear.

Cancer is one of the fields the US is very good at treating.

As Obama’s program moves through Congress, despite the fierce opposition of a majority of American voters in virtually all the polls, it becomes clear that those moderates who vote for it will face harsh retribution at the polls from their outraged constituents.

I'm going to need proof given that the reason I voted for Obama... okay, it was so... she was not next in line to the presidency, but UHC was part of it. Wasn't it part of the campaign platform? The one that got him 52% of the vote?

[PeZook]

And because the leading drugs that we routinely use to treat the malady in the U.S. are banned in Canada because of their high cost, 41 per cent of Canadians who get the cancer die of it, compared with only 32 per cent in the United State

Check out this piece of disinformation: under cursory examination, it would seem true, since the drug was indeed not allowed to be sold in Canada. But as dr. what's quote shows, it's a fucking lie: it wasn't banned, the company making it didn't want to cut into their precious profit margin. But the way he wrote that sentence, it seems like Evil Canadian Government denied patients an essential drug.

I fucking hate sly dishonesty like that.

[General Trelane (Retired)]

There's a brain drain to here??? I have had no less than twelve clients in two years who are doctors in other countries who aren't able to practice here.

I always figured that the OTHER market driven debacle, our education system, was functioning as a barrier to those who had not ivnested in it here.

Whether or not there really is a brain drain of Canadian doctors to the US and what effect this has on the shortage of doctors in Canada depends on whom you ask. The Canadian Health Services Research Foundation downplays it as a myth that they've repeatedly busted. But the Canadian Medical Association Journal published a study that reaches a different conclusion.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Wouldn't that encourage people to become doctors by raising the incentive for potential applicants?

Applicants yes. But not people who pass medical school

As a matter of fact, it would be better if they were paid less. I would have to flunk fewer premed students.

But I think Mike was referring to said brain drain problem.

Honestly Canada has 1/10th the population of the US. That means 10 times as many job openings. Where are you more likely to go if you are fresh out of med school looking for work?

[PainRack]

Interesting....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetuximab
Apparently, its used to treat metastatic colorectal cancer. Chemotherapy is used as a form of palliative treatment.