Few nBSG questions

[Helo]

Hi, I love BSG, WH40K, Star Wars etc. But unlike in others, there are almost no information about their technology.So I have few questions about things I have noticed.

1. Have you ever seen a lift on Galactica or Pegasus? I mean personal lift
2. How did they get vipers from one pad to the other in Miniseries?
3.How strong Battlestars armour is? (eg. against other sci-fi weapons like phasers)
4.In Exodus II we can see Pegasus to get its ass kicked by three basestars without use of nukes, but in Captains hand we see Pegasus holding its ground against same numbers and with use of nukes.
5.Do you think that Glacticas and Pegasus' main weapons can be used for orbital bombardment?
6.What actual use battlestars can have for ship-to-ship missiles? We never saw them used on screen.
7.What do you think FTLs max reach is?

I'd be glad for any hints on this.

[Parallax]

1. Have you ever seen a lift on Galactica or Pegasus? I mean personal lift

I don't recall any.

2. How did they get vipers from one pad to the other in Miniseries?

I'd assume there would be some sort of cargo moving system in the bowels of the ship, though this is never seen.
At a pinch they could simply fly from one to the other.

3.How strong Battlestars armour is? (eg. against other sci-fi weapons like phasers)

It's tough enough to withstand point blank nuclear blasts. The Galactica took one in the miniseries, Pegasus took three and survived during her suicide run in Exodus.

4.In Exodus II we can see Pegasus to get its ass kicked by three basestars without use of nukes, but in Captains hand we see Pegasus holding its ground against same numbers and with use of nukes.

In Exodus, Pegasus and Galactica did not have any Fighter/Raptor support (Galactica's was on the planet helping the resistance, Pegasus' birds were left back at the fleet).

5.Do you think that Glacticas and Pegasus' main weapons can be used for orbital bombardment?

Galactica can certainly launch nukes from orbit, as we saw when Adama threatened to nuke that temple thing (with his own people still inside).

6.What actual use battlestars can have for ship-to-ship missiles? We never saw them used on screen.

Battlestars and Baseships both tend to have rather good point defence; designed to shoot down incoming missiles. No point firing a weapon if it won't even hit it's target. I'd assume such weapons are used when other attacks have already crippled the target somewhat.

7.What do you think FTLs max reach is?

My guess would be whatever the structure of the ship could withstand. We saw Galactica's condition gradually degrade over the run of the show, until the final episode where one last jump resulted in major structural deformation - where Tigh noted that she'd never jump again.

Also how far ahead can be safely plotted. You don't really want to do a blind FTL jump, lest you end up in a planet, star or something else unfortunate.

[Helo]

[quote]In Exodus, Pegasus and Galactica did not have any Fighter/Raptor support (Galactica's was on the planet helping the resistance, Pegasus' birds were left back at the fleet)./quote]

OK, but PDS on battlestars is far more better than those of basestars.Pegasus can take fighter attack and I didn't see raiders use missiles in seasons 2 and 3.When Pegasus rammed the basestar it was very damaged but not even nukes were able to make such damage to the hull before.And it brings me to another question.They probebly don't have escape pods.Why?

[Batman]

1. Blind FTL jumps may or may not be dangerous but NOT because of the risk of ending up near/inside a celestial body, the odds of which happening are infinitesimal at least statistically.
2. Agreed on the no SSMs due to point defense making that futile (though one wonders why those don't work against main battery fire which are apparently projectile weapons too).
3. Nukes vs conventional ammunition. While I very much suspect that the nBSG team never really thought about that beyond 'they can withstand nukes! They're tough!' the ONLY damage nukes do in a vacuum (besides a pretty much irrelevant pressure wave made of the vaporized missile body) is radiation. It's entirely possible that Battlestar armour that can easily shrug off KTs worth of radiation would fall to conventional levels of KE/momentum damage.

[PeZook]

Remember that during the suicide run, Pegasus was running with a skeleton crew only, and it still was able to take three nuke hits with minimal damage, while a single hit to the (fully crewed) Galactica threatened to destroy the ship.

As for why point defence doesn't work against the main batteries: the projectiles are smaller, they're unpowered after they leave their tubes, and even if you blast them apart, you still get hit with the debris that carry all the kinetic energy.

Of course, weaponry effectiveness heavily depends on Plot. For example, in the miniseries, Raiders used missiles often and with good effect. But later on, they could fire none for half a season. Especially considering that a basestar holds at least a hundred raiders, it seems strange they wouldn't use any missiles to whittle down Galactica's fleet. It's not like the Cylons have to conserve their resources, after all, and they don't need to kill every last human in order to win: just inflict enough damage for the fleet to be unable to sustain itself.

[Stofsk]

Remember that during the suicide run, Pegasus was running with a skeleton crew only, and it still was able to take three nuke hits with minimal damage, while a single hit to the (fully crewed) Galactica threatened to destroy the ship.

Galactica was never fully crewed until after Pegasus' destruction. It certainly wasn't fully crewed in the miniseries.

Of course, weaponry effectiveness heavily depends on Plot. For example, in the miniseries, Raiders used missiles often and with good effect. But later on, they could fire none for half a season. Especially considering that a basestar holds at least a hundred raiders, it seems strange they wouldn't use any missiles to whittle down Galactica's fleet. It's not like the Cylons have to conserve their resources, after all, and they don't need to kill every last human in order to win: just inflict enough damage for the fleet to be unable to sustain itself.

Raiders occasionally did strike against the civilian ships. Two examples I can think of was in the second season episode where an aggrieved widow takes a bunch of people hostage on the pleasure yacht ship because rumours got out that Adama had a Cylon prisoner in his brig and hadn't told anybody (you see in a flashback that her husband was blown into outer space because the section of the ship he was in had its hull ripped apart due to Cylon fire). The other example was in the premiere of the fourth season, which had raiders and Cylons attack the fleet which had its power mysteriously cut.

[PeZook]

Galactica was never fully crewed until after Pegasus' destruction. It certainly wasn't fully crewed in the miniseries.

It wasn't? I was under the impression that it was in the process of being decomissioned, but had a mostly full crew complement (It even had more pilots than vipers, hence why they had to pull the fighters from a the gift shop/museum)

Raiders occasionally did strike against the civilian ships. Two examples I can think of was in the second season episode where an aggrieved widow takes a bunch of people hostage on the pleasure yacht ship because rumours got out that Adama had a Cylon prisoner in his brig and hadn't told anybody (you see in a flashback that her husband was blown into outer space because the section of the ship he was in had its hull ripped apart due to Cylon fire). The other example was in the premiere of the fourth season, which had raiders and Cylons attack the fleet which had its power mysteriously cut.

Yeah, but why didn't they just spam missiles at the civvie ships? They had agents inside the fleet, they should've known which ships were critical to the humanity's survival. And even if they didn't, that raider could've just launched a missile and gutted the entire ship rather than uselessly strafing the windows. I mean, the fleet can jump away most of the time, but obviously there are incidents when the Cylons can get close enough to fire.

Compare that to the attack against stranded non-ftl capable ships in the miniseries, where a flight of Raiders just launches a dozen missiles or so and wipes out the entire group in seconds.

Hell...what I'm really wondering about is why they didn't kick off their sabotage by blowing up the Tylium refinery. Instead of suicidically running a Raptor into the single most important ship in the fleet, Boomer sabotages water tanks on the Galatica. Weak.

[Sarevok]

1. Have you ever seen a lift on Galactica or Pegasus? I mean personal lift

No turbo lifts like those found inside Imperial or Federation warships were seen inside a battlestar. They presumably prefer walk. This later comes back to bite them back in the ass several times when they have to deploy marines to defend a mile long warship.

2. How did they get vipers from one pad to the other in Miniseries?

I assume you mean from the side hangers to the launch tubes. The fightercraft land on the large landing bays. This area is exposed to vacuum so pilots cant get out and engineers cant work on the ships. Usually after combat or flight operations are over the vipers are lowered via an elevator to below decks hanger space. This is where the mechanics work on the embarked fighters. When it is time to launch again a separate set of elevators move the fighters to the launch tubes.

3.How strong Battlestars armour is? (eg. against other sci-fi weapons like phasers)

It can withstand direct detonation of at least one 50 kiloton nuclear weapon. Newer designs like the Mercury class Peagasus can take three. Against phasers the armor should hold up well since the phasers on main weakness is dense materials. However without an all encompassing energy shield the turrets, engines, sensors are all exposed and vulnerable to both aimed disabling shots and accidental "golden BBs".

4.In Exodus II we can see Pegasus to get its ass kicked by three basestars without use of nukes, but in Captains hand we see Pegasus holding its ground against same numbers and with use of nukes.

Captain Lee did not fight as aggressively as he could have in Exodus. He had no fighter cover. His ship had a skeleton crew and his flak guns were not firing as well as they should. He just basically knocked out a basestar with an alpha strike. After the Cylons turned around to face him he did not risk a prolonged engagement. Instead he and his crew left on Raptors and put the ship on autopilot. The ship took a pounding yes but until it collided with a basestars its weapons were firing and propulsion systems were working. A more determined commander might have turned the battle around the other way in my opinion.

5.Do you think that Glacticas and Pegasus' main weapons can be used for orbital bombardment?

Unknown. Battelstars cannon batteries are short ranged and inaccurate. In "Eye of Jupiter" when Galactica prepared for bombardment it switched to nuclear missiles. Presumably the yield and inaccuracy of cannons means captains prefer nukes to shells.

6.What actual use battlestars can have for ship-to-ship missiles? We never saw them used on screen.

We have on one occasion. In the season 3 episode "Hero" the battlestar Valkyire fires a missile to descroy a scout ship at considerable range. Also in other occasions like Razor Adama orders ship to ship nuclear missiles to prepared. They never fired in the end but presuably the Colonials carry a handful of nuclear tipped missiles on their battlestars which they use for surface attack and finishing of other capships.

7.What do you think FTLs max reach is?

One million light years is the longest jump we saw. It took place in the final episode and involved blackholes and rock music and angels. But it was a very special case they probably can never duplicate. Normal FTL range is much shorter. In season threes "The Passage" they needed multiple jumps just to travell across one star system.

[Uraniun235]

Hell...what I'm really wondering about is why they didn't kick off their sabotage by blowing up the Tylium refinery. Instead of suicidically running a Raptor into the single most important ship in the fleet, Boomer sabotages water tanks on the Galatica. Weak.

Hey, if they hadn't gotten lucky and found water (with Boomer's help, haw haw) that could have done them in as well.

One million light years is the longest jump we saw.

...What? They didn't jump a million light years - that would have taken them straight out of the galaxy.

[Crazedwraith]

I assume you mean from the side hangers to the launch tubes. The fightercraft land on the large landing bays. This area is exposed to vacuum so pilots cant get out and engineers cant work on the ships. Usually after combat or flight operations are over the vipers are lowered via an elevator to below decks hanger space. This is where the mechanics work on the embarked fighters. When it is time to launch again a separate set of elevators move the fighters to the launch tubes.

No, he means how did they get them from the Starboard pod (where they couldn't be launched; the flight control room now being a giftshop) to the port pod so they could launch the MkIIs.

[Themightytom]

1. Have you ever seen a lift on Galactica or Pegasus? I mean personal lift

No turbo lifts like those found inside Imperial or Federation warships were seen inside a battlestar. They presumably prefer walk. This later comes back to bite them back in the ass several times when they have to deploy marines to defend a mile long warship.

On the flipside its much easier to prevent access to CIC when there isn't an elevator leading right up to it.



There was also a voyager episode where the bad guys took the turbolift to the bridge and were there in like 10 minutes. in fact Han Luke and Chewie took a lift when infiltrating the Death Star.

[PeZook]

After the Cylons turned around to face him he did not risk a prolonged engagement. Instead he and his crew left on Raptors and put the ship on autopilot. The ship took a pounding yes but until it collided with a basestars its weapons were firing and propulsion systems were working. A more determined commander might have turned the battle around the other way in my opinion.

Turned the battle around? How?

There were four Cylon basestars left, the battlestars had no fighter cover and damage control was, at best, severely hampered. They had to fight against four combat ready basestars.

On the flipside its much easier to prevent access to CIC when there isn't an elevator leading right up to it.

If the security system is designed sensibly, it's actually much easier to secure the CIC if the only access point is an elevator shaft. A single Claymore mine will do, forcing the enemy to climb up a vertical shaft and then trying to force their way in against hostile fire.

An elevator carriage is a death trap.

[Revy]

I remember someone asking why the Andromeda never had turbolifts, and it was said to be because they didn't want area's of the ship to be cut-off due to said lifts breaking down in battle. Instead they had ramps and ladders.

I do recall several times in Trek where trouble happens and one or more crew members are trapped on the bridge, and their sole attempt to get off the bridge consists of walking up to the turbolift, the doors failing to open and ... that's it. TNG seems to come to mind in this regard for some reason, and I remember just about shouting at the screen something like "What? That's it, you're stuck? Don't you have a freakin ladder or something tucked away for emergencies?"

I suppose you could use both - lifts for speed and ladders/stairs/ramps or whatever for if the lifts are in use or offline.

[Sarevok]

Turned the battle around? How?

There were four Cylon basestars left, the battlestars had no fighter cover and damage control was, at best, severely hampered. They had to fight against four combat ready basestars.

Basestars are vulnerable at short range. They have no armor to speak off. Lee had them within range of his cannons. In "Resurrection Ship" Peagasus and Galactica tore apart Basestars within minutes with minimal damage to themselves. In "the Hub" nuclear strikes hitting a ship destroyed two nearby Basestars. Compared to a Battlestar that takes nukes to its hull Cylon Basestars can be killed by a nuke going off hundreds of meters away. Indeed this is what we saw in the battle over New Caprica. Peagasus knocked out a basestar within seconds of arriving. Similarly well executed barrages could have destroyed them all.

Now if the Basestars were positioned away from battle and salvoing missiles it would have been a different story. But when Peagasus arrived all of them had converged very close to Galactica to finish her off. There was a chance to knock out all of them. In addition and perhaps most crucially the Cylons had no nuclear weapons.

Could the battle have been won ? Maybe. I would not say they had a sure chance but there was a considerable possibility. Instead of sacrificing the superior ship it was a risk worth taking. At the very least Lee could have attempted to remain just long enough to spool up FTL and escape with Peagasus instead of abandoning ship in a raptor. If Galactica could have done it so could have Peagasus had Lee shown a bit more courage and remained a few more minutes.

If the security system is designed sensibly, it's actually much easier to secure the CIC if the only access point is an elevator shaft. A single Claymore mine will do, forcing the enemy to climb up a vertical shaft and then trying to force their way in against hostile fire.

An elevator carriage is a death trap.

I think biggest issue is not boarders. Jump drive makes space warfare an instantaneous affair. Battlestars often have to launch fighters within seconds. Crew have to return to their posts as quickly as possible. When your best pilots and crew are somewhere else it wastes precious time when they have to jog all the way. Battlestars over a mile long remember. Its a long way to run when every second counts.

[Coyote]

I think biggest issue is not boarders. Jump drive makes space warfare an instantaneous affair. Battlestars often have to launch fighters within seconds. Crew have to return to their posts as quickly as possible. When your best pilots and crew are somewhere else it wastes precious time when they have to jog all the way. Battlestars over a mile long remember. Its a long way to run when every second counts.

But that would be why they have "Action Stations". Everyone already is where they need to be, and they stay there. People who are off-watch report to damage control stations near their quarters, while the people on-watch are already at their duty consoles. The Marines take up positions at chokepoints in case of boarders and are otherwise available for nearby damage control as needed.

A good navy and commander will already have a small pool of skilled people pre-set in areas spread throughout the ship, so you don't have your mechanics running aft-to-fore. Off-watch mechanics are in the crew cabin down the corridor.

[Sarevok]

Ah ok. Conceded then.

But still when you got to operate a mile long ship would not an internal transport system make life easier ?

[Anguirus]

One million light years is the longest jump we saw. It took place in the final episode and involved blackholes and rock music and angels.

No way. As early as the end of season 3 they were in the same arm of the galaxy as Earth 2. Jump drives appear to have limited range (they never leave the Milky Way) but the more important limit seems to be navigational and computational (it's risky to jump "beyond the red line").

[JonB]

I could easilly see one used for cargo transport. However, such a system would be a fairly bad idea in terms of battle damage. Transports like that involve heavy machinery, as well as long open spaces on the ship that do nothing to limit collateral damage from combat. I would expect that such a system be closed off with bulkheads all along its length to limit the possibility of a golden BB taking out a large section of atmosphere or the like. If someone needs to get through, manual overrides exist for that reason.

If memory serves though, the Chief had to get his cew to manually push the Vipers from one pod to the other in the miniseries to get them ready for battle. That's quite inefficient, so perhaps there was an off-screen method for such transfers still in place. Perhaps the system was removed in preperation for conversion to a Museum Ship? (A weak justification, I concede.)

[Khaat]

Great, now I have the cheap-laughs re-write of the cylon boarding party with "turbolifts" playing in my head:

INT. BATTLESTAR ELEVATOR.

Three cylon centurions stand in the low red emergency lighting, two behind, one in front, all facing the doors. "Girl from Impanima" plays over the scratchy speaker. A squeeking sound in heard. The front centurion's ("One") red eye-light briefly hesitates, then continues, left, right, left. Behind, "Two" inclines his head just a bit to "number three". Three gestures at One with his chin. Two's eye-light pauses on One, then resumes his position of attention.

But still when you got to operate a mile long ship would not an internal transport system make life easier ?

The Galactica and Pegasus aren't "diplomatic cruise ship with guns" like the Enterprise (until E, maybe), it's an actual warship. Personnel are where they need to be, are quartered near their duty stations, and when off duty, have limited options on where they can "hang out". Survival for a warship is about utility. You want your fighter jocks and marines and other crew to be fit and ready to jog the 50 yards from where they sleep to where they work.

[/edit for typos, and oly two reviews and rewrites later!]

[Sarevok]

One million light years is the longest jump we saw. It took place in the final episode and involved blackholes and rock music and angels.

No way. As early as the end of season 3 they were in the same arm of the galaxy as Earth 2. Jump drives appear to have limited range (they never leave the Milky Way) but the more important limit seems to be navigational and computational (it's risky to jump "beyond the red line").

The dialogue said they cleared one million lightyears. Considering they jumped near a blackhole with mystical bullshit ritual involving enchanted ftl computers, music and angels that just might be what happened. It would also explain why the Cylons never bothered them again. They went away so far that no basestar could ever catch up.

[Anguirus]

^ So? My evidence is better, unless you mean to say they somehow traveled a million light years AWAY from Earth2 and then BACK.

The dialogue in question is also nothing more than Adama engaging in a bit of hyperbole.

[Sarevok]

What evidence ?

As I stated normal jump drive performence is medicore compared to say Andromeda Slipstream or Star Wars hyper drive. On a bad day it can take multiple jumps just to enter orbit around an inner planet from the outer parts of a star system .But on one special and probably impossible to reproduce circumstance they managed to leap frog over one million light years.

[PeZook]

If memory serves though, the Chief had to get his cew to manually push the Vipers from one pod to the other in the miniseries to get them ready for battle. That's quite inefficient, so perhaps there was an off-screen method for such transfers still in place. Perhaps the system was removed in preperation for conversion to a Museum Ship? (A weak justification, I concede.)

You people are forgetting that while the landing pod was converted to a gift shop, the hangar deck was perfectly fine, and Viper launch tubes are located there. They probably just moved the vipers there using the elevators and had them fly to the other pod.

Basestars are vulnerable at short range. They have no armor to speak off. Lee had them within range of his cannons. In "Resurrection Ship" Peagasus and Galactica tore apart Basestars within minutes with minimal damage to themselves.

In that scenario the Raiders were pulled away by a diversion, and the odds were 1:1. Over New Caprica, the odds were significantly worse, and there were hundreds of angry raiders about. Pegasus has to physically rotate to use its main batteries in order to fire on each basestar, while they'd would all be pumping missiles into her. The ship has already suffered significant damage, Lee had only a skeleton crew for damage control, and its point defence was obviously underperforming something fierce, letting nuke after nuke get through to the hull. Lee was obviously concerned with preserving his crew first and foremost.

In "the Hub" nuclear strikes hitting a ship destroyed two nearby Basestars.

They blew up a ship. Which means there'd be an actual blast wave made up of it - you can't just detonate a nuke in space a hundred meters away from a basestar and expect it to break in half.

Compared to a Battlestar that takes nukes to its hull Cylon Basestars can be killed by a nuke going off hundreds of meters away. Indeed this is what we saw in the battle over New Caprica. Peagasus knocked out a basestar within seconds of arriving. Similarly well executed barrages could have destroyed them all.

That was all well and good if Pegasus didn't lose anything important while physically rotating towards each basestar while being pounded by raiders, and didn't miss a single salvo - seeing as the kinetic weapons are unguided, there was a significant chance of that happening.

Now if the Basestars were positioned away from battle and salvoing missiles it would have been a different story. But when Peagasus arrived all of them had converged very close to Galactica to finish her off. There was a chance to knock out all of them. In addition and perhaps most crucially the Cylons had no nuclear weapons.

If they had no nuclear weapons, then where did the three nukes that hit Pegasus come from?

Could the battle have been won ? Maybe. I would not say they had a sure chance but there was a considerable possibility. Instead of sacrificing the superior ship it was a risk worth taking. At the very least Lee could have attempted to remain just long enough to spool up FTL and escape with Peagasus instead of abandoning ship in a raptor. If Galactica could have done it so could have Peagasus had Lee shown a bit more courage and remained a few more minutes.

Remember that the fleet has no dry dock: two heavily damaged battlestars are much worse than one moderately damaged one, so it's worth sacrificing one of two warships to prevent crippling battle damage to at least one.

[Uraniun235]

The dialogue said they cleared one million lightyears. Considering they jumped near a blackhole with mystical bullshit ritual involving enchanted ftl computers, music and angels that just might be what happened. It would also explain why the Cylons never bothered them again. They went away so far that no basestar could ever catch up.

Oh okay so maybe you can explain how the rest of the fleet found them, then.

[Anguirus]

^ Ha, I can't believe I forgot about that.

As for the rest of the evidence, it's in the section of my post THAT YOU QUOTED, Sarevok.