Another situation reversal! (Evangelion/The Matrix)

[CaptHawkeye]

Remember the hilarious fun we had with the last situation reversal? (The Thing vs. Alien)? Well I thought of a new one kids! Everyone remember the Matrix Revolutions right? Shitty movie true enough. Now everyone remember Neon Genesis Evangelion? Of course you do. See where i'm going with this?


Situation 1:

NERV vs. The Machines

By act of Q, the Geofront, Tokyo 3, and all of its subsequent defenses and facilities are magically transported into the Earth of the Matrix. The Machines are aware of NERV's existence, and as usual, consider it a hazard to their world wide control. So they intend to destroy it.

At their disposal, the Machines have their 250,000 Sentinel Army they used against Zion. As well as other presumably existing Armies and forces. Including those fucking huge titans that were defending the Machine City.

At NERV's disposal is the entire defensive perimeter of Tokyo 3, the defenses of the Geofront itself, and of course, the Evangelions. Units 00, 01, and 02.

NERV's goal is survive the oncoming machine onslaught. Given their equipment, how do they fare?

Situation 2:

Zion vs. The Angel Zeruel.

Q decides that things can get real interesting now, and transports the Angel Zeruel to Matrix Earth. By the power of handwavium, Zeruel believes that Adam is contained within Zion and intends to attack the city much in the same it attacked NERV.

At Zeruel's disposal are all of the powers he featured in the series. His laser eyes, levitation, AT field, and of course, toilet paper arms of doom.

http://wiki.evageeks.org/images/thumb/9 ... zeruel.jpg

At Zion's disposal are the complement of weapons it featured during Revolutions. All of the APU's which defended Zion from the machine attack, plus the hovership Hammer.

In the battle of the underground fortresses, who survives?

[Samuel]

I have never seen NEG (except a brief part of the first episode). However if you want to destory Zion just collapse the roof upon the defenders and crush them all with the rubble.

As for NERV, they probably die. They have one city and their enemies have an entire planet.

[Formless]

Uh, your link to the EvaGeeks wiki is giving me a "forbidden html" error when I click on it. I know which Angel you're talking about, but you might want to fix that for the rest of the forum's benefit.

I've never seen Matrix Revolutions, but I kinda have to agree with Samuel. The Machines not only have a major advantage in terms of resources, but NERV's defenses aren't really that great militarily in the first place. The place got completely stormed with little to no effective resistance by a special ops team with artillery support in End of Evangelion. True, the city had already been wrecked to the point of having to be abandoned by then, but having civilians around in a situation like this is only a liability in the anyway. The entire setup of NERV is supposed to keep out Giant Monsters of Doom, not conventional attackers.

My only caveat is that the Evangelions themselves obviously pose a bigger threat to the machines by virtue of their nuclear rated AT fields, but as was demonstrated multiple times in the series their weakpoint is the power source-- frankly, whoever thought that a death machine that has to be plugged in to work was a good idea should have had their soul removed as punishment for their stupidity * . Even if we suppose they can go into the Berserker state and overcome this limitation (long story...) there is only so much wreaking three depressed and pissed off teens can do before human weakness (need to sleep, eat, and so on) sets in. Even EoE's true God Mode (even longer story...) seems to only effect biological life, so its pretty much useless against this kind of foe.

* Yes, they can do that in Evangelion.

[Ford Prefect]

Given their equipment, how do they fare?

They utterly dominate. The Evangelion's are ludicrously strong and tough; there was a thread on this board where it was determined that it took multiple giganewton impacts to break through the eye of Unit 01. Units 01 and 00 also survive minutes of bombardment from Ramiel's triple digit gigawatt energy beam. Additionally, NERV itself is nothing to sneeze at. No offence to either Samuel or Formless, but the JSSDF is frankly a far more impressive foe than swarms of Sentinels, given that their tactics were slightly more involved than 'fly into people' (this is setting aside that the invasion was at least a battalion level operation and NERV had been having its budget cut back for months - they'd been neutered ahead of time). APUs were perfectly capable of killing swarms of Sentinels, and frankly a dozen APus haven't got shit on NERV's expansive array of missile launchers, autocannon and laser guided artillery.

At Zion's disposal are the complement of weapons it featured during Revolutions. All of the APU's which defended Zion from the machine attack, plus the hovership Hammer.

They get wiped. They have literally no weapons capable of harming something which takes a contact detonation from a nuclear weapon on top of its weak point and pointedly ignores it. Given how casually it penetrates NERV's multiple layers of armour it should be capable of eliminating the entire dock section with one blast from its eyebeams. Sachiel is less powerful than Zeruel and was destroying blocks of city with each blast.

frankly, whoever thought that a death machine that has to be plugged in to work was a good idea should have had their soul removed as punishment for their stupidity

What, exactly, are you going to use to power them? You can't just stick a nuclear reactor in one - they're not machines. Worse comes to worse, NERV can just equip them with the extra batteries (which they've done), but it's not really all theat important, given that the Eva units are intended for defensive work in a prepared position designed to make losing the umbilical cable largely irrelevant, given that they can go get another one.

[Formless]

They utterly dominate. The Evangelion's are ludicrously strong and tough; there was a thread on this board where it was determined that it took multiple giganewton impacts to break through the eye of Unit 01.

Its not a matter of damaging the Eva, its a matter of outlasting the pilot's endurance. They are only human, and can't keep up fighting for very long either physically or mentally. The (15th?) episode where Shinji gets trapped in the Sea of Dirac shows that the Eva units' life support can't supply all their needs; he starts to get hungry and still needs to sleep, for instance. Also, there's combat fatigue to think about. Even with an incompetent enemy, the sheer amount of resources the Machines can presumably throw at the problem means the Eva units aren't going to stop them from raping NERV forever.

What, exactly, are you going to use to power them? You can't just stick a nuclear reactor in one - they're not machines. Worse comes to worse, NERV can just equip them with the extra batteries (which they've done), but it's not really all theat important, given that the Eva units are intended for defensive work in a prepared position designed to make losing the umbilical cable largely irrelevant, given that they can go get another one.

Going to get another one wastes time and directly effects the Eva's combat effectiveness. It also effects the Eva's mobility and slows them down; in the already mentioned episode 15 we see that the length of the cable by itself was a problem because it forced Unit 02 to stop and change cables. Were it not for this delay, Asuka might have been able to engage the Angel (although in this instance that wouldn't have helped, but that's beside the point). You would at least think they would try nuclear batteries or beam power from space (which would conveniently give them another strategic weapon to defend themselves with). There are plenty of alternatives which wouldn't have these kinds of limitations, its all a matter of what their capabilities are. Unfortunately I don't know exactly what those capabilities are, so I'll have to concede that point.

[Formless]

Oh, one more thing: the Eva's were NOT always fighting in a prepared position. At least one battle was fought on the coast in an attempt to stop an Angel before it could even get close to civilization. There's also Asuka's introductory episode where they were forced to fight at sea.

[Samuel]

I was actually refering to the fact that Tokyo is a single city and unless it is built like a City from the Caves of Steel it starves out very quickly.

Also how much do we count the animatrix?

[Formless]

Actually, Samuel, in Evangelion the city we're talking about is Tokyo 3. The original Tokyo which you are thinking of is literally sleeping with the fishes thanks to Climate Change on Steroids. Tokyo 3 on the other hand is built like a Star Destroyer, with a downtown section that has buildings which can retract into a truly cavernous armored dome that houses NERV HQ.

[dragon]

At least they would do better than Zion in the final battle as they are not stupid enough to have those walking abomination that had no armor and left the pilots exposed.

[Ford Prefect]

Its not a matter of damaging the Eva, its a matter of outlasting the pilot's endurance. They are only human, and can't keep up fighting for very long either physically or mentally. The (15th?) episode where Shinji gets trapped in the Sea of Dirac shows that the Eva units' life support can't supply all their needs; he starts to get hungry and still needs to sleep, for instance. Also, there's combat fatigue to think about. Even with an incompetent enemy, the sheer amount of resources the Machines can presumably throw at the problem means the Eva units aren't going to stop them from raping NERV forever.

The Machines don't have limitless numbers: The only hard number we have on them is the quarter of a million which is launched against Zion, which given typical Machine behaviour would be half a minutes work with an Eva's 2000mm gatling. We can presume that the swarm sent against Zion is not representative of them ajority of their forces, but then again, what are their forces? Millions? Billions? The films imply that the Machines only live within Zero One, so it's not like the entire world is swarming with the things.

Going to get another one wastes time and directly effects the Eva's combat effectiveness. It also effects the Eva's mobility and slows them down; in the already mentioned episode 15 we see that the length of the cable by itself was a problem because it forced Unit 02 to stop and change cables. Were it not for this delay, Asuka might have been able to engage the Angel (although in this instance that wouldn't have helped, but that's beside the point). You would at least think they would try nuclear batteries or beam power from space (which would conveniently give them another strategic weapon to defend themselves with). There are plenty of alternatives which wouldn't have these kinds of limitations, its all a matter of what their capabilities are. Unfortunately I don't know exactly what those capabilities are, so I'll have to concede that point.

The idea that they significantly limit their mobility is ridiculous, given that the most impressive feat of Evangelion agility (Asuka dodging missiles in End) was when Unit 02 was attached to a cable. You're suggesting solutions that may not be within the grasp of NERV or the UN; nuclear batteries? Some sort of orbital microwave energy beaming system? Do you really think either is particularly feasible for NERV? Bringing up the battle at sea is ludicrous, because they were actually prepared for the eventuality they needed to sortie Unit 02, given that they had an umbilical cable to plug into the UN aircraft carrier's nuclear power plant. It's the same thing with the coastal battle with the twins, which was within NERV defensive territory, or just outside it. They had a great deal of equipment available (and from memory the Evangelions were delivered by transport train to the location via tunnels). The Evangelions don't operate within a vacuum, they operate within the environment for them constructed by NERV.

[Chris OFarrell]

Yeah...someone play the Curbstomp song.

Tokyo-3 has an absurd amount of defensive firepower in of itself, as well as its own N2 weapons AND the Evangelions of course.

Oh and N2's generate an EM pulse for the record, that was show in the Evangelion pilot. To say nothing of the catastrophic shockwaves the higher yield N2's can generate.

If the Machine hoard simply flies for Tokyo-3 -as I have every reason to think they will- they'll probably run into a salvo of nuclear warheads, and I very much doubt what is left will make it through the Tokyo-3 defensive barrier. To say nothing of what will happen when the Evas get to them. Hell, just pulsing their AT fields on full power will be enough to shatter anything for kilometers, and even IF the Sentinals grab on, the kind of punishment those things can take and the sheer STRENGTH they have...

Yeah...


Zeruel vs Zion however isn't even a joke, its just sick. In terms of direct assault Angels, it is quite simply The King. And there is a good chance it'll go looking for Adam if it doesn't find it in Zion, which will end with it exterminating all opposition to it on the surface of the planet...

[CaptHawkeye]

I was actually refering to the fact that Tokyo is a single city and unless it is built like a City from the Caves of Steel it starves out very quickly.

It was generally implied during the series that Tokyo-3 is highly self sufficient. Also, it's population may not be as big the city itself would suggest. Most of the facilities buildings and sky scrapers are actually mock ups the Eva's can use for cover. (Many other buildings are also hidden missile/gun/sensor batteries, or umbilical/exit points for the Evas.) It would be absolutely ludicrous after all to have many millions of people living in a city like that. Especially when it's obvious the Angels are going to attack it over and over again.

I suppose if NERV wanted to get really funny they could threaten to fuck with the Matrix using the MAGI. I mean resistance fighters broadcasting through radios can gain access to the thing. Then again i'm not sure how feasible that would be, given they are completely different systems.

[Formless]

The idea that they significantly limit their mobility is ridiculous, given that the most impressive feat of Evangelion agility (Asuka dodging missiles in End) was when Unit 02 was attached to a cable.

That incident is an outlier. Every other time they needed the Evas to move quickly or with any agility they started by disconnecting them and relying on the batteries. See: the fight with twin core angel, the incident where they caught an orbiting angel as it was going meteoric to attack NERV, and any time an Eva was forced to disconnect in order to evade an enemy such as in the second episode. Furthermore, I would argue that that is not the most impressive feat of agility the Evas displayed throughout the entire series. The battle with the twin core angel featured not only equally impressive acrobatics, but was essentially a five minute long martial arts demonstration set to music. And they went into it untethered.

You're suggesting solutions that may not be within the grasp of NERV or the UN; nuclear batteries? Some sort of orbital microwave energy beaming system? Do you really think either is particularly feasible for NERV?

I already agreed that I don't fully know their capabilities, but microwave beaming is almost within our grasp. For an organization that can construct and fire a multi-megawatt energy weapon to combat the angels, constructing a microwave system to beam power down to earth should be relatively easy and would provide several other benefits besides. The only part I'm uncertain of is whether they can construct a receiver that could fit onto an Eva. As for the nuclear batteries, one of the early episodes featured NERV sabotaging a rival company's robot which was powered by a mini on-board nuclear reactor; it was fairly bulky, hence why I suggested nuclear batteries rather than a full scale reactor, but clearly it was within their abilities to steal said company's designs for their own use.

The point I wanted to make was that you would think that you would at least see some evidence that NERV looked into alternatives to the extensive, overbuilt, and most likely expensive infrastructure they used just to power the Eva units which had obvious drawbacks that limited the Eva's functioning and use. But we don't, because the show's producers wanted to see how much faux symbolism they could get away with in the story.

[Terralthra]

The external power sources served the same purpose as the binders the Evas all wore: to keep the entity they were using as a weapon under their control. This is demonstrated several times (Unit 00 going berserk in a flashback), and the entire reason they sabotaged the nuclear reactor on the rival company's Big Robot was to demonstrate to everyone what happens when you let a hundred+ meter tall entity with potential autonomy and one hell of a berserker rage run wild with a long-lasting power supply.

[Formless]

How ironic then that Eva units going berserk when their energy reserves were depleted saved their asses time and again.

Really, when it became clear that the Evas had their own unknown power source they could use when berserk, NERV should have given that particular control measure a rest because its completely worthless in light of that fact.

[Archaic`]

Hardly. The Eva units going berserk wasn't something that could be relied on, that not all Eva's could do (Unit 1 could, but it was special. Unit 0 only went berserk once, while it was hooked up. Unit 2 eliminated the problem of berserk) and it was potentially dangerous. The power cable extends the time they can operate safely without having to rely on something that could easily backfire on them.

[Samuel]

I hate to sound like an idiot, but if they weren't sure they could trust the pilot couldn't you just enlarge the cockpit and add in a political or psych officer?

[CaptHawkeye]

Having more than one person in the entry plug creates "noise" in whatever system synchs the pilot to the Eva. This occured on two seperate occasions in NGE. In both instances, the Evangelion continued to operate and fight however.

Two of Shinji's high school friends were allowed to enter Unit 01's entry plug during the fight with Shamshel. They reduced the Evangelion's reaction time and speed, but it continued to operate albeit at reduced efficiency.

Shinji rode along with Asuka in Unit 02 during Gaghiel's attack on the UN fleet. The biggest problem his precense in the cockpit caused was longer startup procedure. After that Unit 02 operated normally despite having two people in the cockpit at once. Though it's possible that Shinji's experience with the Evas by then had taught him to discipline his thoughts so as not to intrude on Asuka's commands.

So the problem generally comes from the fact that a second crewmember creates excessive interferance within the entry plug system.

[Formless]

Hardly. The Eva units going berserk wasn't something that could be relied on,

That's part of what makes it ironic.

that not all Eva's could do (Unit 1 could, but it was special. Unit 0 only went berserk once, while it was hooked up. Unit 2 eliminated the problem of berserk) and it was potentially dangerous. The power cable extends the time they can operate safely without having to rely on something that could easily backfire on them.

True, only Unit 01 did it reliably, and I never implied that it wasn't dangerous. However 1) where did you get this idea that Unit 02 eliminated the problem? Where was that ever stated? You realize that Unit 02 actually did go berserk exactly once right before it got killed in EoE, right? 2) An Eva in exactly the state they wanted to avoid doesn't give a shit about the external power source. It has its own source of power, and there is nothing they can do about that except to try and keep them from going into berserk mode in the first place. Relying on the umbilical cables does precisely nothing to make an Eva safer or to eliminate the risk of it going berserk. It only serves to hamper the pilot's ability to operate the Eva, which makes it more likely a pilot will screw up an operation. The idea that this is a safety measure is one of the most insipid I've heard all month.

Besides, why the hell were they trying to reverse engineer the angel's S^2 engine? Doing so only serves one function: it makes the Eva no longer reliant on external power, and thus more autonomous in functioning. According to you this is the last thing they wanted to accomplish, yet that is exactly what they did. And you can't plead that it was part of SEELE's plot, either, because NERV was the one who salvaged the organ from a dead angel for reverse engineering in the first place, and we know that NERV and SEELE have opposing agendas. So there must be a different reason for Evas to be forced to rely on external power, and so far stupidity or lack of capability are the only possibilities I'm seeing. And frankly I doubt its a lack of capability.

I hate to sound like an idiot, but if they weren't sure they could trust the pilot couldn't you just enlarge the cockpit and add in a political or psych officer?

No. The Evas are controlled by direct mind to machine/mind interface. For reasons related to plot, they have to keep constant, precise conditions in the plug (i.e. what they call the cockpit), and having more than one person in there (esp. people who aren't properly trained) creates interference.

[loomer]

NERV and SEELE having opposing agendas? Yeah, opposing hidden agendas, but given as Gendo - you know, the man in charge of NERV - is also working for the shadowy SEELE and one of the fifteen main members, do you really think it's impossible that he was just, you know, following orders on that? What about the five of them who are the Instrumentality Council and oversee NERV?

Also, an S^2 engine could potentially be utilized for civilian endeavours as well as merely sticking it in an EVA. It's just that, when humanity is on the line, the EVAs were the main priority there. And as for Unit 2 going berserk?

Yes, it went ONCE, when the pilot had basically achieved complete synch with her dead mother, after the thing had been mortally wounded and had about 99% of its armour torn off. That is the ONLY time we've seen a production model EVA go berserk, and frankly, I think it very likely that that was because of the removal of the armour, in that nauseatingly gruesome dismemberment scene, removed the usual blocks restricting it.

I'll also note that you do not WANT the EVAs to have a capacity for going berserk. They lost complete control of Unit 1 that way, remember? It took them days to get it back into NERV HQ and weeks to even get it rebound, and during that time it managed to eat an S^2 engine. Do you not remember them being quite scared of it afterwards?

[Ford Prefect]

That incident is an outlier. Every other time they needed the Evas to move quickly or with any agility they started by disconnecting them and relying on the batteries. See: the fight with twin core angel, the incident where they caught an orbiting angel as it was going meteoric to attack NERV, and any time an Eva was forced to disconnect in order to evade an enemy such as in the second episode. Furthermore, I would argue that that is not the most impressive feat of agility the Evas displayed throughout the entire series. The battle with the twin core angel featured not only equally impressive acrobatics, but was essentially a five minute long martial arts demonstration set to music. And they went into it untethered.

How in God's name is the synchronised battle with Isfrael even remotely comparable to Asuka effortlessly weaving through several dozen guided missiles in midair? I take your point regarding the limiting effects of the umbilical cable, but I'm not even mildly convinced that it's that so detrimental to their operation, given how well Unit 01 was operating against Sachiel in the second episode, especially seeing how Sachiel is second only to Zereul as a direct assault Angel.

I already agreed that I don't fully know their capabilities, but microwave beaming is almost within our grasp. For an organization that can construct and fire a multi-megawatt energy weapon to combat the angels, constructing a microwave system to beam power down to earth should be relatively easy and would provide several other benefits besides. The only part I'm uncertain of is whether they can construct a receiver that could fit onto an Eva. As for the nuclear batteries, one of the early episodes featured NERV sabotaging a rival company's robot which was powered by a mini on-board nuclear reactor; it was fairly bulky, hence why I suggested nuclear batteries rather than a full scale reactor, but clearly it was within their abilities to steal said company's designs for their own use.

The way you assume that it would be so trivial to put a power station into orbit over Tokyo 3 and hold it there all the time is irritating. Have you even considered the cost involved? The Evangelions are already huge, if necessary, expenses. The Eva project has probably been directly attributable to hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of deaths from starvation (the Jet Alone director's accusations are true, going by Ritsuko's reaction). The power doesn't come from nowhere, either, it must also be generated in your orbital power beaming station, which adds more mass, which makes it more expensive, which gives more opportunity for malfunction, which will require a goddamn space mission to fix, which will drive up costs even further and so on and so on and so on. For all your complaints about the umbilical cables, having a series of nuclear reactors locked up in a bunker with an army of technical staff living right next door is a superior proposition to some pie in the sky orbital wireless power plant.

you also can't just say 'nuclear batteries' and get away with. Nuclear batteries are real things; do you have an evidence that they can provide energy equivalent to roughly a supercarrier's nuclear reactor? The only nuclear batteries that I am familiar with don't have particularly huge power outputs (though I am not hugely familiar with all nuclear batteries ever). The series makes it clear that if they really wanted to, NERV could run the Evangelion's purely on batteries, but that there are drawbacks to this. They're gigantic power hogs, and just assuming that there must be some easily available replacement for the umbilical cables is ridiculous.

The point I wanted to make was that you would think that you would at least see some evidence that NERV looked into alternatives to the extensive, overbuilt, and most likely expensive infrastructure they used just to power the Eva units which had obvious drawbacks that limited the Eva's functioning and use. But we don't, because the show's producers wanted to see how much faux symbolism they could get away with in the story.

You clearly have no sense of perspective, given that you just suggested putting the same power source into orbit. Blaming a deliberate technical decision on Anno's desire for symbolism is fucking barmy, by the way. If anything, it's part of the desire to present the Evangelions as 'real' things, with the extensive maintenence and infrastructure required to keep them running, comapred to other monster of the week mecha shows where there's basically no effort expended to field a giant fighting robot.

[Formless]

NERV and SEELE having opposing agendas? Yeah, opposing hidden agendas, but given as Gendo - you know, the man in charge of NERV - is also working for the shadowy SEELE and one of the fifteen main members, do you really think it's impossible that he was just, you know, following orders on that? What about the five of them who are the Instrumentality Council and oversee NERV?

Except Gendo was not the one in charge of the actual salvage operation. That was Ritsuko, one of the few people at NERV who damn well knew the danger the Evas presented since she was in on their little secret. She is not one of SEELE's, yet she allowed it to happen without complaint.

Also, an S^2 engine could potentially be utilized for civilian endeavours as well as merely sticking it in an EVA. It's just that, when humanity is on the line, the EVAs were the main priority there.

Red herring. The point was that they apparently decided that giving the Evas more autonomy by giving them an internal power source outweighed the risk of them going berserk, assuming that was the point of the umbilical cables in the first place, which has yet to be shown.

And as for Unit 2 going berserk?

Yes, it went ONCE, when the pilot had basically achieved complete synch with her dead mother, after the thing had been mortally wounded and had about 99% of its armour torn off. That is the ONLY time we've seen a production model EVA go berserk, and frankly, I think it very likely that that was because of the removal of the armour, in that nauseatingly gruesome dismemberment scene, removed the usual blocks restricting it.

I took that to be more a matter of Auska's figuring out the secret behind the Eva's than because the binders were damaged. Besides, what are these so called binders binding, anyway? It just looks like armor to me. I never really understood that...

I'll also note that you do not WANT the EVAs to have a capacity for going berserk. They lost complete control of Unit 1 that way, remember? It took them days to get it back into NERV HQ and weeks to even get it rebound, and during that time it managed to eat an S^2 engine. Do you not remember them being quite scared of it afterwards?

I didn't say that it was something you want, just that it was ironic that it saved their bacon almost every time it happened when they took such great pains to prevent it.

[Formless]

I take your point regarding the limiting effects of the umbilical cable, but I'm not even mildly convinced that it's that so detrimental to their operation, given how well Unit 01 was operating against Sachiel in the second episode, especially seeing how Sachiel is second only to Zereul as a direct assault Angel.

Obviously they were not so detrimental as to make the Evas useless, I will grant you that. However, the very fact that they do limit the operation of the Evas means that you would still expect to see them look for alternatives that didn't have these problems. They do eventually do so with the S^2 engines, but there were alternatives that predated those (i.e. the mini nuclear reactor used by the rival company's robot).

The way you assume that it would be so trivial to put a power station into orbit over Tokyo 3 and hold it there all the time is irritating. Have you even considered the cost involved?

Yes, and considering that they had the capability to attack targets in orbit with N^2 missiles and had satellites in orbit I would guess that they have the space infrastructure in place with which to do so.

The Evangelions are already huge, if necessary, expenses.

In part because of the massive defense environment that was specially built alongside them and with them in mind. That includes the Umbilical cords you have been defending. If you increase the autonomy of the Evas you wouldn't need this specially built infrastructure, and you can save costs there. Or do you think that the only cost involved in the project was designing a suit of armor for a 40 meter tall human?

The Eva project has probably been directly attributable to hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of deaths from starvation (the Jet Alone director's accusations are true, going by Ritsuko's reaction).

You think Ritsuko knows the effect her work has on the economy? Frankly, the Jet Alone company's accusations smell like propaganda designed to damage NERV's credibility. Notice that for as shocked as Ritsuko was, Misato was almost bored the entire time she was there. Why would you trust them when they have a vested interest in making NERV look bad?

The power doesn't come from nowhere, either, it must also be generated in your orbital power beaming station, which adds more mass, which makes it more expensive, which gives more opportunity for malfunction, which will require a goddamn space mission to fix, which will drive up costs even further and so on and so on and so on. For all your complaints about the umbilical cables, having a series of nuclear reactors locked up in a bunker with an army of technical staff living right next door is a superior proposition to some pie in the sky orbital wireless power plant.

Compared to having to install specially built power converters and equipment all over the damn Japanese landscape? I'm sure that costs nothing!

you also can't just say 'nuclear batteries' and get away with. Nuclear batteries are real things; do you have an evidence that they can provide energy equivalent to roughly a supercarrier's nuclear reactor? The only nuclear batteries that I am familiar with don't have particularly huge power outputs (though I am not hugely familiar with all nuclear batteries ever). The series makes it clear that if they really wanted to, NERV could run the Evangelion's purely on batteries, but that there are drawbacks to this. They're gigantic power hogs, and just assuming that there must be some easily available replacement for the umbilical cables is ridiculous.

We're talking about a series where the Jet Alone project could strap a fucking mini nuclear reactor onto the back of a robot, and you're telling me NERV can't do something similar after they've already infiltrated said company? Are you shitting me, Ford?

You clearly have no sense of perspective, given that you just suggested putting the same power source into orbit.

Japan in real life thinks it can be done. Really, the only argument you have put forth against this proposal is the cost of launch and maintenance, and ignored all the other benefits such a setup would have such as civilian power and orbtal bombardment. Are all satellites suddenly garbage simply because they don't have a team of technicians waiting on them hand and foot?

Blaming a deliberate technical decision on Anno's desire for symbolism is fucking barmy, by the way. If anything, it's part of the desire to present the Evangelions as 'real' things, with the extensive maintenence and infrastructure required to keep them running, comapred to other monster of the week mecha shows where there's basically no effort expended to field a giant fighting robot.

Then tell me why they call them goddamn Umbilical cables. Just because you have removed the most nonsensical part of the infrastructure doesn't mean you have lost that bit of the deconstruction completely.

[Samuel]

You think Ritsuko knows the effect her work has on the economy? Frankly, the Jet Alone company's accusations smell like propaganda designed to damage NERV's credibility. Notice that for as shocked as Ritsuko was, Misato was almost bored the entire time she was there. Why would you trust them when they have a vested interest in making NERV look bad?

Wait, military spending is so large a portion of their economy that it devestated the agricultural sector? Wouldn't that imply that they can't simply vat grow food and so being dumped into the Matrix version Earth is a death sentance when the city's reserves run dry?

[Ford Prefect]

Did you seriously have to break my post down almost sentence by sentence? It's totally unnecessary. I'm going to collate all your related comments, because you only have a couple of points.

Obviously they were not so detrimental as to make the Evas useless, I will grant you that. However, the very fact that they do limit the operation of the Evas means that you would still expect to see them look for alternatives that didn't have these problems. They do eventually do so with the S^2 engines, but there were alternatives that predated those (i.e. the mini nuclear reactor used by the rival company's robot).

We're talking about a series where the Jet Alone project could strap a fucking mini nuclear reactor onto the back of a robot, and you're telling me NERV can't do something similar after they've already infiltrated said company? Are you shitting me, Ford?

Don't try to act all incredulous because I think you're full of shit. Jet Alone is not a robot with a nuclear reactor strapped to it, it's a robot built from the ground up to house a nuclear reactor. There's a significant difference, and you can see how much of its mass is taken up by the nuclear reactor, and it's a lot. It's practically a fifth of an Evangelion's volume.

Yes, and considering that they had the capability to attack targets in orbit with N^2 missiles and had satellites in orbit I would guess that they have the space infrastructure in place with which to do so.

In part because of the massive defense environment that was specially built alongside them and with them in mind. That includes the Umbilical cords you have been defending. If you increase the autonomy of the Evas you wouldn't need this specially built infrastructure, and you can save costs there. Or do you think that the only cost involved in the project was designing a suit of armor for a 40 meter tall human?

Compared to having to install specially built power converters and equipment all over the damn Japanese landscape? I'm sure that costs nothing!

Japan in real life thinks it can be done. Really, the only argument you have put forth against this proposal is the cost of launch and maintenance, and ignored all the other benefits such a setup would have such as civilian power and orbtal bombardment. Are all satellites suddenly garbage simply because they don't have a team of technicians waiting on them hand and foot?

Christ, you are retarded. Yes, they have satillites, and yes, they have the ability to launch N2 weapons into space. This is not quite the same thing as trivially constructing a nuclear power station in orbit which can beam the power down to Tokyo 3 all the time. You're just totally dismissing the difficulty involved in such a project, given that it would at least be as difficult as constructing the International Space Station and would definitely be much more difficult. Think about this for a moment: the ISS has cost over a hundred billion dollars (and this hypothetical space power station is going to cost as least as much), while a supercarrier costs only eight billion. You could more or less build twelve nuclear power plants capable of running an Evangelion for the price of one orbital power station. Which do you think is a better option for an emplaced defensive position? This is a rhetorical question, because the answer is obviously the ones built on earth: not only will it be cheaper, it will simply be easier to do. You can't just handwave all the difficulties associated with a large scale construction project in space, or with maintenence of such an orbital power plant. What if it does break down? You can't just fix that overnight, nor can just switch on your other orbital power plant have it take up the slack, because you won't have another one. You can't fix a terrestrial power plant overnight either, but it's going to be a whole lot easier regardless.

Yes, there's no denying that a great deal of money went into constructing Tokyo 3, but Tokyo 3 isn't just umbilical cables you stupid fuck. It's an entire defensive position, replete with a huge number of emplaced weapons and support equipment for Evangelion operations, such as the deployable armour partitions which have been vital to Eva operations (most notably the Isfrael battle). Building this orbital power station isn't going to make Tokyo 3 magically a fraction of the cost, because the power plants beneath the city are only a fraction of everything Tokyo 3 is. As Misato says, it's a city designed to recieve then Angels and then kill them.

Also, just because some group wants to have a solar power plant in orbit by 2020 (which, hilariously, is six years after the events of NGE and is in the real world where the apocalypse hasn't wiped out a third of the world's population) doesn't mean that there will actually be an orbital solar power plant by 2020.

You think Ritsuko knows the effect her work has on the economy? Frankly, the Jet Alone company's accusations smell like propaganda designed to damage NERV's credibility. Notice that for as shocked as Ritsuko was, Misato was almost bored the entire time she was there. Why would you trust them when they have a vested interest in making NERV look bad?

Of course I think that. How could she, the director of the project with security clearence second only to that of Gendou and Fuyutski, not? That's a ridiculous proposition, because it suggests that Ritsuko has literally no idea of the combined cost of her own project. Citing the fact that Misato doesn't give a shit is alsosilly, because it's completely meaningless. Of course Misato doesn't care, it's Misato. Comparitively, Ritsuko does care, and she gets extremely defensive about it; if the Jet Alone guy was bullshitting, why didn't she just say 'that's bullshit, dude'? I'm pretty sure she even tries to justify the cost.

Then tell me why they call them goddamn Umbilical cables. Just because you have removed the most nonsensical part of the infrastructure doesn't mean you have lost that bit of the deconstruction completely.

You realise that the term 'umbilical cable' wasn't invented by Neon Genesis Evangelion, right? I've heard the term used for both space suits and diving gear. PS. 'you don't like it' isn't the the same thing as 'nonsensical'.

Wait, military spending is so large a portion of their economy that it devestated the agricultural sector? Wouldn't that imply that they can't simply vat grow food and so being dumped into the Matrix version Earth is a death sentance when the city's reserves run dry?

No, spending on the Evangelions is so large that it is a significant drain on the UN's budget, and it gets cut from humanitarian efforts in third world countries who were most devastated by Second Impact.