SDN Diplomacy #2: Comments Thread

[Duckie]

Hereby Announcing Another Game Of Diplomacy, since I remember at least one being played on SDN before and I feel like hosting one because I like the game and it's interesting.

Now, for those of you who don't know what Diplomacy (the game, and not the action) is, I will briefly explain. Diplomacy is an abstract, zero-sum strategy game loosely based around the great game between the european powers. Each player plays one nation: Britain, France, Germany, Austria-Hungary, Russia, Italy, and the Ottoman Empire. Diplomacy is widely regarded as a game with extremely simple rules and complex strategy, due to the fact that its rules incorporate two things things.

1) The game is known for its intricate diplomacy and frequent backstabs and gambits, as the name states. In between each turn, a period of time is allowed for players, if they choose to do so, to privately or publicly talk, make joint plans, make announcements, deals, alliances, secret treaties, or other agreements and strategems as they see fit. Anything stated, privately or publicly, in this phase, is obviously nonbinding and does not compel a player to actually follow through with promises they make. This will be simulated on SDN by public posts in the thread, instant messenger conversations, Private Messages, or however players choose to contact eachother.
2) The game is very unique among wargames- all armies and fleets have the same power, and there are no random rolls. Further, only 1 unit can be in any province at a time. Instead, units must support eachother to gain advantage over defenders, making the movement of pieces not a random die roll of fate but the culmination of strategy, foresight, and politicking.

Is anyone interested in joining an SDN Diplomacy Game? 7 players, one for each power, are required, in addition to me. I will be managing the game, so I don't count as a player. When you post your interest, list the great powers in the order you wish for preference (a partial list if you only say care about "1. Germany, 2. Russia, 3. Britain, 4-7. Any"), if you care at all. Anyone above 7 can still play if someone goes AWOL. After 1 full year (in game, of course- probably about 2 weeks or so) of someone not responding, anyone else can step up and take their position, or if they say they're leaving and want someone else to take over.

Preliminary schedule is up to debate: 1 turn per week for Spring, Retreat, Fall, Retreat, Build would make the game take a long, long time, so I was thinking something like 3 days per phase. At that length, the average game would still take 5 months, but I'd prefer not to rush people with turns due like, every other day or something. Still, it's up to debate, depending upon the opinions of the people who sign up. If no one has any opinions, I'll go with 3 days per phase.

For those who have never played Diplomacy before, the next post below this one will summarize the rules of diplomacy. It's a little long, but don't be intimidated. You might prefer this link to a copy of the official rules if my writing style grates on you, or you think I'm a tosser who can't explain anything at all well. If so, here you go.

Those of you who know how to play can just skip the next post entirely.

[Duckie]

Rules of Diplomacy


Diplomacy is a bit of a complex game, although it's no Chess or World In Flames. If anything it's more like Go. Still, you might need to read these rules a few times to get it, if you've never played before, or check out the official rules linked above. Hopefully you already know them so you don't have to bother reading this long post at all. Hopefully, but I want to make it as easy as possible for anyone to join in any case.

1) Objective. The Objective of the game is to have 18 or more Supply Centers at the end of a year, out of the 34 supply centers upon the board. Supply Centers in this map are visible as a circle-in-circle, with the colour of the inner circle indicating possession. The game may also be ended by unanimous consent of all remaining players, resulting in a draw.

2) Provinces. The board is divided into provinces. A province can be coast, inland, or sea. Coastal provinces are adjacent to at least one water province. Inland provinces are adjacent to no water provinces. Land provinces of either type can have Supply Centers. A nation has as many units as it has supply centers, making possession of these provinces valuable for a country.

3) Home Supply Centers. The 3 (4, if you are Russia) supply centers you begin with are your Home Supply Centers. Players may build new units in these centers as they capture other supply centers, and only in these squares. A nation which loses all of its Home Supply Centers is temporarily unable to rebuild units until it recaptures one of its Home Supply Centers and has it empty during the end of the year when building/removing units takes place.

4) Geography: Coasts. 3 Provinces- Bulgaria, St. Petersburg, and Spain- have coasts. Fleets, when in coastal provinces, move alone the coast and cannot enter or cross inland areas. For most provinces, this makes no difference save in these three provinces. A fleet which is in a coastal province which has 2 coasts must be placed on either one of them, and its potential moves are limited as such. For example, a fleet on the South Coast of Spain cannot move to Gascogne, which is adjacent to Spain's North Coast. Similarly, a fleet on the east coast of bulgaria cannot move to greece.

5) Geography: Canals. 2 Provinces, Constantinople and Kiel, have only one coast, as indicated by the canal on them, despite looking like they shoudl have two. A fleet can enter Kiel from Helgoland Bight on one turn, then exit into the Baltic from Kiel on the next turn.

6) Geography: Misc. Armies can walk from Denmark to Sweden, as indicated by their adjacency on the map. This is a commonly missed fact, and so is indicated as a rule specifically. Sweden does not have 2 coasts, despite bordering Denmark, nor is Denmark adjacent to Berlin.

7) Units. Armies and Fleets are the two types of units. Armies are more mobile on land due to not being limited to travelling down the coasts. Fleets can convoy armies across oceans. Each unit's usefulness depends upon your situation, including what power you are playing.

8) Phases. The game starts in 1901, mostly to make the last two digits = the 'turn' number. There are 2 phases per year, Spring, and Fall. Before each phase, a diplomatic phase takes place wherein players can plan, discuss, or take other meta-game actions. Then, orders are written and submitted to the referee before a deadline, and adjucated by her, and the results posted. Let's go through a full year.
a) Diplomacy happens before the spring moves.
b) Spring moves are submitted, adjucated, and posted.
c) Powers whose armies are dislodged must submit Retreat orders to tell their retreating army where to go. The post-retreat map is posted.
d) Diplomacy happens before the fall moves.
e) Fall moves are submitted, adjucated, and posted.
f) Powers whose armies are dislodged must submit Retreat orders to tell their retreating army where to go. The post-retreat map is posted.
g) Build Phase: Supply Centers occupied by a power flip to their colour. Powers who have gained an SC submit Build Orders saying what new units to construct. Powers who have lost an SC or SCs submit orders for which unit to remove.
h) New Year Begins.

9) Orders are written down and PMed to the Referee. This is not as intimidating as it sounds. The following will explain how to write orders. There are somewhat complex systems of abbreviation used by diplomacy players, but those aren't needed for human interpretation and aren't necessary. You could write out, for instance, "Army Berlin holds. Army Munich to Ruhr. Fleet Kiel to Denmark", which is a potential order set. If an Order is illegal or ambiguous, such as "Army Galicia to Liverpool" or "Army Galicia to over there", it will not occur, and the army holds.

10) Orders. Hold, Move, Support, and Convoy are the four orders you can give. Pull up the map and this will be easy.
a) Hold means the unit stands still. This is simple enough. If a unit isn't given orders, or it's given illegal orders, it holds.

b) Move means a unit moves. If two units attempt to move into the same spot, they bounce off eachother and neither enters a province. If a unit attempts to move into a province where a unit is holding, it bounces off and thus stays where it is. A sort of conga line of "Kiel to Berlin, Berlin to Prussia" etc. is possible for units, since all of them move simultaneously so none will bounce, assuming none attempt to move into the same province. Two units cannot swap places. "Berlin to Kiel, Kiel to Berlin" is not a legal move. However, 3 units can move in a triangle, such as "Berlin to Kiel, Kiel to Munich, Munich to Berlin".

This is legal.

This isn't.

c) So how do you manage to capture territory then if units bounce like that? Supports are how. A Support is slightly complex, but it's easy to explain. An example would be "Army Silesia Supports Army Prussia to Warsaw." In this move, 2 armies are cooperating to overwhelm a single army defending warsaw, and thus Army Prussia. A unit which supports stands still, but it assists a neighbouring unit move. A unit can successfully complete a move if it has more support than any other unit attempting to be in the province. Nations can support eachother's moves. You can't support an attack against your own nation. A Support is only valid, however, if the unit could concievably itself move there. So armies cannot support fleets attacking other sea provinces, nor can fleets support attacks on inland provines.

Germany supports an attack successfully into Warsaw.

c2) Cutting support. A supporting army is fragile, and its support will be removed if it is attacked, whether successfully or not, by any army except the one it's supporting against, since that would be silly. Cutting support by bouncing off of or dislodging armies that could potentially threaten or stall you is a significant strategic goal of defense and offense alike.

A russian attack on the supporting army cuts the support, so Prussia's army does not dislodge the army at Warsaw.

d) Convoys are a bit complex too but they're not too bad. Britain starts with an army on the british isles, which would be odd unless armies can cross the ocean. They can. Write "Fleet English Channel Convoys Army London to Picardy" and "Army London to Picardy" and you will end the turn with a fleet in the channel and an army in picardy. However, you can cut convoys just like you can cut supports, sort of. Convoys are more durable- an attack doesn't prevent them, only dislodging the convoy by attacking it with enough support to beat it. If a convoy is cut, the army remains in place. To prevent this, you can support a convoy with a fleet with "Fleet South Atlantic Ocean Supports Fleet English Channel's Convoying" or the like. Since you need to order both the fleet and the army to do the same thing, you can't forcibly convoy another person's troops without him writing the order.

Britain Convoys an Army to Picardy.

Germany supports a French attack, preventing this same move. Notice how the support is on the opposite side of the attack. It still works, they're both adjacent. The game is abstract like that.

And, finally! Britain in this one is supporting the convoy, so even though it's attacked with a support, it's also defended with 1 support, so the move stands as written.

d2) Convoy Minutiae: Convoys only work if the fleet is on water, you can't convoy a venetian army via a fleet in triest into albania, you can only do that if you're in the Adriatic. Constantinople and Kiel don't count as water for this either. You can't Convoy Support, only Movements. Convoying a Support would be odd. You can however string multiple movements, like "Fleet South Atlantic Ocean Convoys Army Portugal To English Channel" "Fleet English Channel Convoys Army Portugal To North Sea" "Fleet North Sea Convoys Army Portugal To Norway.". This is rather vulnerable and gutsy, but it's pretty impressive and surprising if you pull it off. If one of the convoys is cut by an attack, the entire movement fails and the army remains in Portugal, rather than leave the army sitting in the middle of the ocean. You can specify multiple convoys for the same army if you're paranoid about it being cut- as long as one of the convoys is legal and uncut, the army will arrive.

A portugal-norway convoy, for illustrative purposes.

Got all that? Probably not- it's a little complex. But, the good news is, that's diplomacy. All of it that matters. The rules aren't too big. Well, almost all of it. Let's finish. The rest of it isn't complicated anymore, so it's fine.

11) If a unit is dislodged (that is, it held for any reason, and then another power's unit moved into its province with enough support to beat it), it must retreat during the Retreat Phase. You can't dislodge yourself, even by accident. A unit can't retreat into an occupied province, the province it was dislodged from, or anywhere where a bounce happened that turn (meaning you can use bounces you manufacture yourself to constrict retreat possibilities). Anywhere else is fair game. If a unit can't retreat, it's disbanded. If two units of any nationality retreat to the same spot, both are disbanded. If you fail to order a retreat purposefully or by accident, it's disbanded. You can't support or convoy retreats, only the retreating units are moving.

More advanced rules that will almost never come into play, usually for resolving paradoxes these basic rules cause in adjucation and the like, in addition to a copy of the full rules that are perhaps worded more formally and longwinded than I but with examples- are available from this link. Here. You don't really need to know any of it probably beyond what's in this post. Two advanced ideas however deserves note:

Bouncing your units off eachother, with or without support, can be useful to prevent retreats or to prevent enemies from entering somewhere without actually moving a unit into that spot (say, if they need to also be sitting on a supply center). You can swap two units if you convoy one of them or both of them, since now they don't pass over eachother.

12) At the end of fall, supply centers currently occupied by held by a foreign power change to their colour. Once a Supply Center is colour, you don't need to continue to occupy it- it will remain yours even empty, only prevent opponents from seizing it. Your supply centers are totalled and if you have less units than your current SC number, you get to build new ones to equalise the numbers, which is specified by an order. ("Build Fleet at Sevastapol", for example.) Units must be built in your home supply centers, not in any ones you've captured. If you have less SCs than units at the end of a year, you have to disband units until it balances out again. A suggested long-form writing is "Disband Fleet at Bulgaria" or the like. Russian players who build in St. Petersburg must specify which coast for fleets. If all of your Home SCs are occupied by yourself or someone else at the end of fall, even if you deserve new units you can't build them since there's no room. However, they aren't lost. You can build them later if a Home SC opens up. Try not to be standing on your own Home SCs at the end of Fall if you are elligible to and want to build new units. You can decline to build a unit for any reason (probably diplomatic).

Congrats, you just read how to play Diplomacy. Remember, the actual rules are important, but only as a way to get your alliances and politicking done. The game is about backstabbing them interacting with them. The rules are just a means to provide the drama.

[Duckie]

additional post- if, since the board reorganisation, play-by-post forum games that are not STGODs go in some other forum, a Mod who can punt this to whichever corner it goes in would be much appreciated. I just remember the last game went in G&C.

[Thanas]

I think this belongs here.

[Narkis]

I'd like to play in this. I've wanted to try Diplomacy for quite a while, but I haven't found anyone else to play with.

My order of preference:
1) Russia
2) Austria
3) Italy
4-6) Any
7) Ottoman Empire

[Lord Relvenous]

I'm definitely interested. I've never played Diplomacy before, and it sounds very interesting. How hard is the game for newcomers to get into? The rules seem simple enough, but I've seen games where the rules seem simple and then when you join you get crushed by the other players in only a few turns.

[Stark]

I played in the old game, and it was pretty boss. What kind of turn timing are you looking at?

[Duckie]

I played in the old game, and it was pretty boss. What kind of turn timing are you looking at?

I don't know, honestly, since I'd rather use interested players' opinions (since they're supposed to have fun, and also to make sure I don't have a bloody stupid idea). I can't remember the old SDN game's timescale, but part of me thinks the reason it fell through was how slow it moved, if I'm right in recalling that it took like a week per move or something insane. I want to be accessable, after all, since some players might not be contactable on all days and we need diplomacy to make diplomacy work, and people might be too busy- if orders were due every day, you'd probably have it played a lot like Gunboat* rather than anything else, unless you had very dedicated participants.

(*Gunboat diplomacy, for those who have never played it, is diplomacy where nobody can talk, though there's elaborate codes of how to signal other players using symbolic illegal moves. I don't get it either. It's supposed to be more tactical I guess?)

But there needs to be a balance between speed (so that people don't lose interest and the game doesn't drag), and giving-people-time-to-talk-to-eachother. 7 days per turn would make the game take like a bloody year- unless people are all right with that relaxed pace, in which case I'm fine with it too, but if it were me I'd prefer a much faster game.

I think a good solution would be 3 days per turn, probably with shorter Retreat and Build phases if people are all right with having those turned in the day after the moves are due, since the planning and diplomacy has already mostly gone on.

Original plan was 3 days per phase- Spring, Retreat, Fall, Retreat, Build; but that'd end up with a 15 day year, which is pretty damn long.
Maybe something like this Days 1-3 Spring, Day 4 Retreat, Days 5-7 Fall, Day 8 Retreat, Day 9 Build. Much shorter.

'everything is 3 days' is simpler, but you don't need 3 days to ponder a retreat order, it takes like 10 seconds to do, maybe 30 if you've got a tricky situation. Especially since many times some powers won't have any so giving long waits for that would be futile. And, in the main thread, at the end of every post, I'd post in largish bold letters the next order recieved date for PMed orders, so the 3, 1, 3, 1, 1 pattern wouldn't throw anyone off since they could just look to see "Summer Retreat Orders Due At Midnight GST When Sunday Ends and Monday Begins" or somesuch.

I think unless anyone objects the 9-day version will be used. For one, it would cut the game down by about 60% in length, so even if it's a little more demanding on participants to actually, well, participate, there would be less dropouts due to real life coming up or losing interest.

[Duckie]

Ghetto Edit- I'd like feedback on the planned schedule. My gut says it's probably too fast for some people, since I tend to be a player who likes faster games, so the '3 days per turn' (15 day year) might be more palatable.

I'm definitely interested. I've never played Diplomacy before, and it sounds very interesting. How hard is the game for newcomers to get into? The rules seem simple enough, but I've seen games where the rules seem simple and then when you join you get crushed by the other players in only a few turns.

Depends entirely on diplomacy, as the name states. Which power you are influences what alliances you make, in addition to the temperments and plans of the other powers. There's no real major skill difference in moving the pieces between a pro and a person who has never played before, save maybe seeing some unorthodox manoeuvres with convoys. The difference is entirely in Diplomacy- convincing someone else to help you with your idea (say, 'franco-german alliance against britain' or the like), by honest entreaties to their self-interest, trickery, guile, or playing both sides off eachother or somesuch. And knowing when to betray your allies for self-interest and when not to, which is a pretty basic strategic calculation. The art of the Stab (the Diplomacy jargon for the sudden, crushing moment when you turn on someone and crippled them) is basically the art of Diplomacy, some would say.

So yeah, new players are at a little disadvantage, but a clever newbie who can talk his way into one or more alliances and/or trick some people will often beat a blunt, guileless professional all the time.

[Stark]

I think that it might be a good approach to propose a timeframe and only accept players who can meet that timeframe. If someone wants to play but only has access on the third friday after the new moon, fuckem.

I think your appraoch to sliding phases is a good idea; the phases that are just 'yes, no, yes' don't need much time.

[Duckie]

I think that it might be a good approach to propose a timeframe and only accept players who can meet that timeframe. If someone wants to play but only has access on the third friday after the new moon, fuckem.

I think your appraoch to sliding phases is a good idea; the phases that are just 'yes, no, yes' don't need much time.

Yeah, that's a good point you have. Fixing a timescale will make things easier in terms of getting players who are interested to know if they actually can play, which I hadn't really considered (otherwise some people get left in the 'maybe I can' state).

So, unless 7 people who can fit the 3-1-3-1-1 Timescale (it's like, 10 seconds to write moves, plus however long you want to spend planning with people, so it's not like this schedule is daunting) literally cannot be found, we'll proceed with that, because it makes sense- waiting 3 days for, say, the British player to get off his ass and write "Build a fleet in Edinburgh" is silly.

[Bluewolf]

I may potentially be interested in this. I can keep active if you need me too.

[Narkis]

The 3-1-3-1-1 schedule is good. Probably even better than the 3 days one too.

[Duckie]

I'm definitely interested.

I played in the old game, and it was pretty boss.

I may potentially be interested in this. I can keep active if you need me too.

All right then, if you three interested and going to be playing, could you post a complete or partial preference for country (or an indication of your lack of caring)?

Granted, it is not needed until we have 7 players, but it's useful for me keeping track of who's actually going to be a player rather than just interested in being one.

[loomer]

I'm in on this, and I'd like to go somewhat unusual in my choice for my first game - The noble, pre-secular Turk.

[Lord Relvenous]

I'm definitely interested.

All right then, if you three interested and going to be playing, could you post a complete or partial preference for country (or an indication of your lack of caring)?

Granted, it is not needed until we have 7 players, but it's useful for me keeping track of who's actually going to be a player rather than just interested in being one.

1-3. Britain, Germany, Italy
4-6. Any
7. France

As for time, I'm fine with any schedule the other players and you decide upon. I lurk more than I post, so I'm on the forums regularly.

[Duckie]

A quick note- just in case everyone doesn't know, choices can link up- two people can have the same first priority or second priority or such, which is determined by random chance.* This is why there are second priorities, in case two people pick the same first priority, they fall back to their second (which could also be random if someone else has that as a second priority, and so forth), and third beyond that, and so forth.

I say this because I haven't seen any people indicate the same preferences yet, which is certainly possible, but I'm going to make sure everyone is up to speed on how that actually works and why there are 2-7th place picks and the like.

Assuming Stark is playing, we need 3 more people (2 more if Bluewolf is also playing) before the game can commence, although there might be a few days delay.

*Technically I think to prevent conscious gaming of the system the preference lists are supposed to be secret and revealed at the same time, but I don't think it matters hugely that a player can sit down and calculate their odds of getting a power. I don't think anyone cares since this isn't some big hullabaloo/tournament.

[Thirdfain]

Believe it or not, I'm a voracious Diplomacy player- this would be the 5th I have going on at the moment, if there's room for someone who will play:

1. Austria
2. ....Anything else.

[Eris]

1. Austria
2. ....Anything else.

You are an extremely brave man. *hattip*

And I'd be willing to play. My list would probably be:

1. Turkey
2-3. Germany, Russia
4-5. Italy, Austria
6-7. UK, France

[Duckie]

Assuming Bluewolf and Stark submit preference lists, we are now at quorum. I have PMed Bluewolf and Stark for theirs. If anyone can join and submit a preference list before them, or if they are not actually going to play, you'll preempt them in terms of who has actually signed up, so it's well worth still signing up if you wish to play.

[JonB]

I would like to play. First time, so I'll learn on the fly.

1)Italy
2)France
3-7)Anyone

[Duckie]

Okay, in that case, as I have also recieved preferences via PM for Bluewolf, the player positions have been determined. Apologies to Stark, who didn't reply in time. Anyone else interested can potentially be a substitute if someone drops out.

Power Assignments will follow shortly.

[Duckie]

1 Austria-Hungary: Thirdfain
2 Germany: Eris
1 Italy: Relvenous
1 Great Britain: Bluewolf
2 France: Jon
1 Ottoman Empire: Loomer
1 Russia: Narkis
Combined Preference Ranking (7 is what everyone wanted as their first ranking, 49 is everyone gets their last choice): 9.

Methodology: This list was made to produce the lowest number*, where each ranking is how highly a country was listed, with any judgement calls (such as, the preference number being equal in two situations, so which to use) resolved by coin flip.

Please post or PM me contact information you want other players to contact you by. Ideally this should have been done earlier, but it slipped my mind.

My apologies for the delay.

*In the future, I think multiple countries in a single spot, like "Italy, Germany, or France" as #1 will not be accepted, as it makes it a bitch to do these fairly. But that's for next time, if there is one, for now I worked with it.

[loomer]

Well then, just hit me up by PM. Glory be to the Ottoman Empire! Praise be to Allah!

And so forth.

[irishmick79]

I'm interested.