Netherlands To Tax Drivers By the Kilometer

[Molyneux]

So...what exactly is going to prevent them from using this GPS system as a tracker for anyone the government would like to keep tabs on?

[Red]

...??? No comments yet on a government tracking you(r car), everywhere and at all times? Would GPS tracking data be admissable evidence in cases outside vehicle taxation?

Edit: Darn ya, gettin' a post in just before me!

[Bounty]

...??? No comments yet on a government tracking you(r car), everywhere and at all times? Would GPS tracking data be admissable evidence in cases outside vehicle taxation?

Nope, anonymity is guaranteed.

[Darth Tanner]

The system is supposed to stop the busiest parts of the highway system from jamming up completely

I'm not sure how they expect that to work though, people don't drive into congested areas just for the hell of it. Obviously this will increase the financial incentive to use public transport but as they claim not to be raising the actual level of taxation on driving (they say that now they’re not paying for the huge IT system to track every car in the country and calculate their routes) but people are still going to be using the congested roads regardless of their cost. If they could have driven on less congested roads or at a different time then they would be already. Unless of course the government is also going to be spearheading a scheme to break up the working day so everyone doesn't go to work/school at the same time to create the congestion in the first place.

so perhaps odometer readings aren't considered reliable?

How are they going to stop them tampering with the GPS tracking beacons that people are going to have to have fitted to their cars? Or just turning them off/putting some lead over them. I can't imagine it will be long before there's online kits to rewrite the software in whatever hardware gets installed into users cars.

Nope, anonymity is guaranteed.

It is now, but the big brother implications of literally tracking every single vehicle in the country are immense. There was some talk of a similar system in the UK and we hardly have the Netherlands good reputation for protecting civil liberties.

However I'd imagine that there isn't going to be a live tracking of each vehicle as that would require data to be streaming from each car constantly. More likely is that the on-board beacon records the route the car is taking and calculates a bill for reading when annual inspection is due which would be of limited use for 1985 family members. To be honest though I have no idea how this will be achieved as that could build up to a huge sum of data.

[Dahak]

For a workable GPS toll system, they just have to look over the border. Germany has managed, after some development hell, to implement a workable system which seems to work reliable. Right now only for lorries, but nothing to stop them from implementing it for cars, as well.
As for cheating, besides GPS, there are special camera bridges installed on the motorway which checks license plates if they are registered/have already paid.

[CmdrWilkens]

The system is supposed to stop the busiest parts of the highway system from jamming up completely

I'm not sure how they expect that to work though, people don't drive into congested areas just for the hell of it. Obviously this will increase the financial incentive to use public transport but as they claim not to be raising the actual level of taxation on driving (they say that now they’re not paying for the huge IT system to track every car in the country and calculate their routes) but people are still going to be using the congested roads regardless of their cost. If they could have driven on less congested roads or at a different time then they would be already. Unless of course the government is also going to be spearheading a scheme to break up the working day so everyone doesn't go to work/school at the same time to create the congestion in the first place.

Not neccessarily, VMT pricing isn't full on congestion pricing (which is the more evolved variant on this method) but what it does is eliminate discretionary trips. Contrary to your statement people DO travel on congested roads at times and palces when they don't have to because there is no opportunity cost to doing so aside from time which folk may or may not value equally. Those trips (the quick run to the store for a lunch while you are out and just don't feel like going home yet for example) can and do occur during peak periods. Congestion pricing is a better approach to this as it diverts discretionary trips and add-on trips to non-peak times but taxing VMT will reduce them just to a lesser degree.

In an idealized scenario the VMT pricing would be coupled with congestion pricing so that the per mile/per kilometer tax varies based upon time of day traveled and distance of trip.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Yeah, that's exactly my issue. A trip in the middle of the night on uncongested roads, on highways where you get the best gas mileage, to go visit your father who lives 200 miles away... Should cost substantially less per mile than extremely short trips, which should be taxed very heavily to encourage people to walk, instead. I'd say that round-trips of under a mile in length would ideally cost a dollar per mile in tax, for example, to eliminate the suburban fatass "drive four blocks to Wal-mart and back".

[Stark]

Zoned fees have success reducing congestion I believe. People say 'nobody does it for no reason' but the whole point is to edge out borderline cases. I wish they do the whole inner-city tax thing in Brisbane - the reason it's not practical is the city's almost entirely central bridging.

[Grif]

One thing I wondered, who is going to bear the cost of purchasing and installing the devices? The car owner or tax-payers as a whole?

[[R_H]]

Some more information

"An alternative payment will be introduced for foreign vehicles," the ministry statement added.

There was no specification as to whether the measure will require carmakers to install the receivers and antennas, or whether it must be done by car dealers, or others, prior to sale.

The system uses GPS, a car transmitter and a standard cell phone GSM network to send this information to a central computer that processes the information.

The system starts in 2011 for freight transport and will be expanded to include cars in 2012. Full deployment of the system is scheduled to be completed in 2016.

[Siege]

What about using RFID-transmitters for the motorcycles?

RFID chips would require scanners everywhere. The beauty of a GPS-run system is that it can be automated without requiring cars to pass through omnipresent scanner booths or whatnot.

Why are classic/older and electric cars exempt from the taxes? They still contribute to congestion, even if there aren't many of them relative to other vehicles on the roads.

Because cars 25 years and older have always been exempt from the vehicle tax. I'm frankly not sure why, it's just a quirk of the local tax laws.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the proposal's use of GPS-transmitters instead of something more conventional and wide spread like RFID or DRSC.

I will venture a guess and say because it's easier to automate. The tracking signals can be indexed and processed from afar, without requiring scanners along the roads. For a little while it was a toss-up between this and mass toll booth installation, the government went with this because once the system is in place it will presumably be easier to maintain.

So...what exactly is going to prevent them from using this GPS system as a tracker for anyone the government would like to keep tabs on?

The system is supposed to guarantee anonymity. I'm not sure I buy that argument, but then there are already thousands of traffic camera's pointed at every highway and they are to the best of my knowledge not used to track anyone. Also privacy laws, and for me personally I trust my government not to abuse the system (or not too flagrantly at least ).

One thing I wondered, who is going to bear the cost of purchasing and installing the devices? The car owner or tax-payers as a whole?

The cost of installing the transmitters in cars already on the road will be born by the government, so tax-payers as a whole. For brand new cars the buyer will have to cough up the costs.

[salm]

Why are classic/older and electric cars exempt from the taxes? They still contribute to congestion, even if there aren't many of them relative to other vehicles on the roads.

It´s the same in Germany. I guess the rationale behind it is something like this: Many people think old cars look cool and want to see them on the streets and preserved. There are not many old cars around. Modern laws would make it more problematic for old cars to be around because old cars have high gasoline use/no seatbelts/no catalyst/no third break light/other modern stuff.
But we still want old cars around because we think they look cool and want to preserve them. Therefore we will compromise safetly and ecological concerns for aesthetic reasons and give old cars exceptions. It doesn´t matter that much because the amount of old cars is very low.

[Qwerty 42]

I'm going to echo the sentiment of using a fuel tax instead: it eliminates the need for different rates depending on when you drive, which sounds like a bit of a nightmare to calculate, and removes the need for the GPS, which is going to be one of the main points of opposition to this legislation.

[Bounty]

I'm going to echo the sentiment of using a fuel tax instead

There is already a fuel tax. This is in addition to that.

[Qwerty 42]

I'm going to echo the sentiment of using a fuel tax instead

There is already a fuel tax. This is in addition to that.

Sorry, I mean elevating the fuel tax.

[Bellator]

Can't raise the fuel tax much further. Holland's a small country. Won't be too hard for people to just fill up in Belgium/Germany.

[Siege]

Yes, as a matter of fact it will. People here don't drive hundreds of kilometers to save a few cents on fuel. They just don't do it, fuel has always been cheaper in Germany and only people living near the border ever bothered to top up on the other side of the fence.

[Bellator]

That is cause the difference was never that big. Currently it's less than 10%. Add another 20% and you bet your ass people will do that.

[Oskuro]

So...what exactly is going to prevent them from using this GPS system as a tracker for anyone the government would like to keep tabs on?

Took long enough for this to pop up. Firstly, does anyone honestly believe governments would have any trouble at all keeping tabs with someone they want to monitor in some way? I bet it is even illegal to prevent law enforcement from checking up on people when they have to.

Secondly, why the paranoia? Are you doing something so dreadful you need to hide it? Who the fuck cares if some government employee knows when exactly you've gone to the grocery store? Not to mention that keeping track of everyone in a single country is practically impossible.

And thirdly, while driving your car you are in public, there's no fucking right to privacy when you're riding on the government's roads.


The idea of integrating GPS systems into cars is interesting, since it could also be used to control infractions. In the same way the GPS can keep track of wich parts of the road have been travelled, it can also keep track of the average speed, and fine the driver accordingly if they are consistently ignoring speed limits. It might even be possible to have such a system control wether a driver ignores traffic lights, or drives through somewhere they shouldn't, not to mention a cop in pursuit of an infractor wouldn't even need to look at the license plate, just hit a button for the onboard computer to get the information it needs. The system could also warn the driver if they are going too fast (as normal GPS systems already do), wich might help a lot of people who just get distracted and step on it without realizing.

We'll see how the thing turns out.

[Molyneux]

So...what exactly is going to prevent them from using this GPS system as a tracker for anyone the government would like to keep tabs on?

Took long enough for this to pop up. Firstly, does anyone honestly believe governments would have any trouble at all keeping tabs with someone they want to monitor in some way? I bet it is even illegal to prevent law enforcement from checking up on people when they have to.

Not at all, but I see no reason to make it any easier.

Secondly, why the paranoia? Are you doing something so dreadful you need to hide it? Who the fuck cares if some government employee knows when exactly you've gone to the grocery store? Not to mention that keeping track of everyone in a single country is practically impossible.

See above. Also, have you ever heard the phrase "Give 'em an inch, they'll take a mile"?

And thirdly, while driving your car you are in public, there's no fucking right to privacy when you're riding on the government's roads.

I suppose you'd have no problem with being required to wear a tracking collar at all times while walking on the government's sidewalk, then.

[Bounty]

I suppose you'd have no problem with being required to wear a tracking collar at all times while walking on the government's sidewalk, then.

Big difference here: the GPS tracker knows where your car is, but it won't know where you are, and there's no way its position tracking could be used in a court even if the government decides to commit electoral suicide by making the data admissible.

[Molyneux]

I suppose you'd have no problem with being required to wear a tracking collar at all times while walking on the government's sidewalk, then.

Big difference here: the GPS tracker knows where your car is, but it won't know where you are, and there's no way its position tracking could be used in a court even if the government decides to commit electoral suicide by making the data admissible.

That is true, but I do still think it illustrates the crock the "no right to privacy" argument was. There's a difference between allowing photos of yourself to be taken and mandating the use of a tracking device.

[Oskuro]

I suppose you'd have no problem with being required to wear a tracking collar at all times while walking on the government's sidewalk, then.

Actually, no. Even if it was just a tracking collar, or a subdermal tracking chip, it would be terribly useful when a person goes missing, just as my Alzheimers suffering grandma went missing a few weeks back (we did find her). It would also be useful for prosecutors who want to test a person's alibi.

Not to mention such a device would probably be tied to some other functions, like alerting health services if something goes wrong with your vitals, calling the police if there's an emergency, etc etc.

Really, if the police wants to track me, they'll have no problem doing so, and I have no reason to worry about them knowing where I am, in fact, I'd prefer that they could quickly know where I am if I were to need them.

Now, is there a reason why you consider government surveillance is bad? Appart from the usual privacy rights kneejerking you've been doing so far.

[TheLostVikings]

Secondly, why the paranoia? Are you doing something so dreadful you need to hide it? Who the fuck cares if some government employee knows when exactly you've gone to the grocery store? Not to mention that keeping track of everyone in a single country is practically impossible.

See above. Also, have you ever heard the phrase "Give 'em an inch, they'll take a mile"?

And thirdly, while driving your car you are in public, there's no fucking right to privacy when you're riding on the government's roads.

I suppose you'd have no problem with being required to wear a tracking collar at all times while walking on the government's sidewalk, then.

You are "being tracked" when walking on the sidewalk already, don't you realize your cell phone pings nearby towers every few seconds to verify that it has a signal? And unlike the aforementioned GPS (which stays in the car and have no idea which shops you enter) your cellphone is usually carried on your person.

Of course no government bothers to track everyone, because lets face it: the life of joe schmoe is fucking boring, they don't really give two shits about what you do. (not to mention the insane manpower required to sift trough all those logs, even if you had computer automagically flag suspect behavior it would take ages to sift trough all the false alarms)


Back on topic, I wonder if this system can be used to repeal speeding tickets, or travel logs called into court as alibis/evidence. Regular peoples civilian GPS units have already been used for such purposes, so having everyone have an mandated GPS receiver in their car could possibly be convenient for all kinds of purposes.

[Qwerty 42]

Out of curiosity: are you then also a supporter of the American PATRIOT Act? After all, if you're not doing anything wrong, you don't have to fear a wiretap.