Image of the universe at age 380,000yrs

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2003-02-12 11:38am

http://www.sunspot.net/technology/bal-t ... Dheadlines

"Astronomers unveiled yesterday the most detailed picture ever made of the infant universe, a snapshot that solves some of mankind's oldest riddles - from when the first stars began to shine to how the universe will end.

The eerie image, compiled by a NASA space probe in a lonely orbit on the dark side of the moon, shows the universe as it was just 380,000 years after the big bang got everything started."

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-02-12 01:57pm

More proof of the Big Bang. Suck it, fundies.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2003-02-12 02:16pm

It's a pretty picture too

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-02-12 02:19pm

wait.... I think I can see Jesus' face in that image.....

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-12 03:29pm

looks like something ive seen in my fridge after a vacation. heh.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-02-12 03:33pm

I really wouldn't say it's "eerie" as described on the site, but it does striek a blow agianst those fundies that don't believe in the Big Bang.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-02-12 04:00pm

you all forget, god made the light that photo recorded the same time he created the universe and its just been travelling a very long time. Its all a test of our faith.

<cough> The image isnt that special. I've seen similar. Its just another noise filter over clouds then gaussian blur--.. Er.. Thats not NASAs secret, I swear..

if those images are from 400,000AF then the images are from about 13BLY out. Now terribly far, only a few thousand galaxies away.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-02-12 04:13pm

I'm sure the fundies will deny it, saying "we don't understand it, so it must be fake".

Like you can understand all of the Bible.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-02-12 04:53pm

It's fucking cool.

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-02-12 06:37pm

Showing it to my agnostic friend so she'll go over the fence into our camp for sure..

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-02-12 11:20pm

jaeger115 wrote:Showing it to my agnostic friend so she'll go over the fence into our camp for sure..

?

Why would an agnostic not believe in the Big Bang?

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-02-13 01:46am

Guess she was a religious agnostic instead of a atheist agnostic.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-13 01:53am

There are two kinds of agnostics:

A religious person (usually Christian in this country) with a confidence problem
An atheist with a confidence problem

Artanis · Post by **Artanis** » 2003-02-13 01:59am

Hmmm, something I've got to try sometime:

Fundie: IT'S A LIE! A DARWINIST LIE!
Me: So you're saying that God is too weak to set off an explosion big enough to create the universe?
Fundie: YES! I mean...NO! I mean...AAUUGGHH! *head explodes*

*runs off to find a fundie to experiment on*

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-02-13 05:14am

Darth Wong wrote:There are two kinds of agnostics:
A religious person (usually Christian in this country) with a confidence problem

An atheist with a confidence problem

Classic.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-02-13 08:08am

Little baby universes are sooooooo cute.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-02-13 01:56pm

I'm a little lost... wouldn't the radiation created at 380,000 years from the beginning of the universe be at the outer fringe of the universe by now? (Specifically, it'd be 380,000 lightyears from any photons emitted when the first photon was emitted in the same direction.)

So how'd the radiation turn around and come back this way? And how can the scientists determine how old such radiation is?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-13 03:01pm

Mad wrote:I'm a little lost... wouldn't the radiation created at 380,000 years from the beginning of the universe be at the outer fringe of the universe by now? (Specifically, it'd be 380,000 lightyears from any photons emitted when the first photon was emitted in the same direction.)

So how'd the radiation turn around and come back this way? And how can the scientists determine how old such radiation is?

The cosmic microwave background is background radiation. Yes, the photons are traveling at c, but they are traveling in random directions, as well. As a result, you get a statistical cancellation effect when you take an average sample of their temperatures. You can't think of the universe in terms of having edges or a shape; it doesn't. It is infinite.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-13 03:38pm

Darth Wong wrote:There are two kinds of agnostics:
A religious person (usually Christian in this country) with a confidence problem

An atheist with a confidence problem

Hush. My ego is clearly too big for it to be a confidence problem.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-02-13 03:51pm

Durandal wrote:The cosmic microwave background is background radiation. Yes, the photons are traveling at c, but they are traveling in random directions, as well.

The photons would have to originate from something. And that something would have to be in the direction the photon comes from.

If the universe is 13.7 billion years old, as the article says, and the picture was created from readings from 380,000 years after the birth of the universe, then then it's roughly 13.3 billion year old photons we're seeing, which had to originate 13.3 billion light years away from us.

These photons have to travel in a straight line (except where influenced by gravity), so they can't just curve around and come back to us. And even if they did, we wouldn't be able to their source because they'd appear to be coming from somewhere else now.

Anyway, here's the problem as I see it: any EM radiation created at 380,000 years from the birth of the universe would reach the other side of the expanding cloud of matter within 760,000 years (from one side to the other, nothing is traveling faster than c). Well, since the cloud is still expanding, it'd take longer to cross... but for it to be significantly longer the material would have to be going at very close to lightspeed, and then all that relativity kicks in and I don't feel like thinking that hard right now... but in order for us to see it, we'd have to be traveling away from the point of origin at greater than .99c... otherwise any photons that old should have passed us a long time ago.

(Edit: oops.. from our point of view, it'd only take the 760,000 years, because c is always constant... duh... so of course it'd have passed us at 1,140,000 years from the birth of the universe.)

But if we are traveling that fast, then... oh...

As a result, you get a statistical cancellation effect when you take an average sample of their temperatures.

That's a new term for me, so I don't know how it applies.

You can't think of the universe in terms of having edges or a shape; it doesn't. It is infinite.

I know. I was trying to figure out a simple way to say "the outer edge of the material universe" or something to get the idea across of the part of the universe that is inhabited by any kind of particle. If the universe is 13.7 billion years old, for example, then 14 billion light years away from the point of origin should be absolutely nothing, since it'd take faster-than-light particles to get that far in 13.7 billion years. (I'm ignoring tachyons since we can't detect them if they even exist.) There wouldn't even be background radiation because there is no close enough source for it (the oldest background radiation won't reach that point for another 3 billion years). Then I gave up 'cause I figured it'd be too cumbersome to say.

So what do we call the sphere with a 13.7 billion lightyear radius that makes up all that should matter in the universe?

ben · Post by **ben** » 2003-02-13 07:56pm

Patrick Degan wrote:Little baby universes are sooooooo cute.

Aren't baby pictures adorable.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-13 08:32pm

Mad, that sphere is the universe. As far as anyone figures, there is no point 14 billion LY from here.. Because beyond the edge is no space, no time, no nothing. Or, so says physics. Or what I've read. ARGH! BRAIN OVERLOAD!

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-02-13 10:17pm

SirNitram wrote:Mad, that sphere is the universe. As far as anyone figures, there is no point 14 billion LY from here.. Because beyond the edge is no space, no time, no nothing. Or, so says physics. Or what I've read. ARGH! BRAIN OVERLOAD!

Well, there is a point 14 billion light years from here, since we aren't the center of the universe. I know you meant the point of origin, though.

Anyway, I'd just define it as nothingness, because nothing has reached it yet. In 300 million years, light will reach it, though.

But that does nothing to address my concern. As far as I can tell, photons emitted at 380,000 years from the birth of the universe cannot be seen by us, because it has already passed us before the universe was 1,140,000 years old.

You see, the expansion of matter from the point of origin can't travel faster than c. So at 380,000 years, the radius of the matter is no more than 380,000 light years, and thus has a diameter of no more than 760,000 light years. If we pick a spot on the very edge of this expansion and ride along with it, photons emitted from the opposite edge will reach us within 760,000 years. (Thanks to relativity, the photons will start at less than 760,000 LY away and travel towards us at c from our point of view.)

If we pick the spot that becomes earth, it will reach us in less time because we're closer to the far end of the expansion than the edge. Thus, photons from 380,000 years from the birth of the universe cannot be seen by us because they have long since passed us. (Would have passed us over 12 billion years ago, never to be seen again.)

If we are indeed seeing 13.3 billion year old photons, then the universe must older than 13.7 billion years old.