Physics challenge: stringy ships

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Does the string break?

Yes
8
27%
No
17
57%
I don't know
5
17%
 
Total votes: 30

bilateralrope
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by bilateralrope »

Terralthra wrote:Spoiler
Bob is correct, and his argument seems more or less accurate. If we were to consider a double-hulled spaceship with an engine on each hull, and Alice and Bob are on separate hulls, we would not even be asking the question of whether or not the ship tears itself apart through Lorentz contraction. Lorentz attraction affects the ship as a whole as a coordinate effect. The situation as given is a case of that, with the firm connection between the hulls replaced by a thin string. So long as the initial conditions are met (force applied by the engines such as to produce equal acceleration, exactly parallel acceleration, etc.), the string will not break.
Spoiler
At the same time the distance you observe between Alice and Bob along the direction of travel would decrease due to length contraction. But that isn't happening here:
so that at every instant, their velocities relative to you are equal.
Because you always observe their velocities to be equal, you must also observe the distance between them to be constant. The only way for that to happen is if the proper length is increasing, meaning the string will break.
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by bz249 »

Terralthra wrote:Spoiler
Bob is correct, and his argument seems more or less accurate. If we were to consider a double-hulled spaceship with an engine on each hull, and Alice and Bob are on separate hulls, we would not even be asking the question of whether or not the ship tears itself apart through Lorentz contraction. Lorentz attraction affects the ship as a whole as a coordinate effect. The situation as given is a case of that, with the firm connection between the hulls replaced by a thin string. So long as the initial conditions are met (force applied by the engines such as to produce equal acceleration, exactly parallel acceleration, etc.), the string will not break.
Spoiler
You are assuming perfectly rigid bodies... which is a classical concept, since it requires infinite velocity of sound.
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Spoonist »

Seeing as I have no knowledge in the topic but still having guessed I would be interested in if we could get the "correct" answer from Kuroneko?
I am curious...
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by bilateralrope »

Kuroneko, I have another question about your wording: Who is the observer when this is true:
so that at every instant, their velocities relative to you are equal.
Spoiler
If I am the one observing the equal velocities, then my previous post is correct and the string breaks. But if Alice or Bob are the ones observing this, then Terralthra's post is correct and the string doesn't break.

So I'm back to "I don't know"
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Terralthra »

I think a key point is not that the velocity vectors are equal to the observer, but the scalar quantity of their velocity is equal, such that their velocity with respect to the observer as a point of origin is identical. IE, two ships traveling directly away from each other and an observer can have the same scalar speed relative to an observer, despite exactly opposite velocities.
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Kuroneko »

bilateralrope wrote:Kuroneko, I have another question about your wording: Who is the observer when this is true:...
As clarified on the previous page, everything in the problem statement is intended to be in your inertial reference frame.
Spoonist wrote:Seeing as I have no knowledge in the topic but still having guessed I would be interested in if we could get the "correct" answer from Kuroneko?
Alright. According to J.S. Bell, if you've answered that the string does not break, then you share the intuition of the majority of theoreticians at CERN, where he held an informal poll because of a disagreement. Spoiler
Unfortunately, that is not the right answer--both Alice's conclusion and reasons are actually correct. I got this problem from Bell's book, Speakable and unspeakable in quantum mechanics, although he does not give any derivation for the answer. The whole thing seems out of place from the rest of the book, although it's interesting enough by itself. Bell argues that those with a classical physics background have a stronger intuition, both in general and in regards to this question in particular.

Darth Holbytlan's reasoning is pretty clear as to why (although Glass Pearl Player also stated the right answer as a particular case before that, and others stated pretty much the same thing afterward as well):
Darth Holbytlan wrote:From your point of view, Alice and Bob maintain the same velocity at all times. Therefore they maintain the same distance at all times in your frame of reference. But this means the distance is increasing between Alice and Bob's vessels in their frame of reference.
This is pretty direct: if the contracted length L/γ is constant, where L is the proper length of the string, then since γ is increasing with velocity, L must be increasing. Thus, the string is being stretched, and therefore eventually breaks. (Note: DH's footnote caveat is equivalent to saying that the acceleration is small, although the conclusion is true regardless). What's different from the ships themselves?
Terralthra wrote:If we were to consider a double-hulled spaceship with an engine on each hull, and Alice and Bob are on separate hulls, we would not even be asking the question of whether or not the ship tears itself apart through Lorentz contraction.
In in your frame, the ships are Lorentz-contracting. Thus, to not have additional stress, the string should be Lorentz-contracting--but it's not! bz249, after posting his answer, also makes the following comment:
bz249 wrote:BTW note that Alice and Bob are two different frames, because of the different origins, thus the two Lorentz transformations are different.
Image
This can be viewed as another way to understand the problem. The Lorentz transformation is t' = γ(t - vx/c²), x' = γ(x-vt). Note the vx/c² term. It means that even though the two ships' clocks tick as the same rate (both dilated by γ in your frame), they are out of phase even if initially synchronized: according to one ship, it will have spent more time accelerating than the other. If I understood GPP and Steel correctly, they seems to have arrived at the correct answer through essentially this kind of reasoning.

In terms of spacetime diagrams, a uniformly accelerated object has a hyperbolic worldline. So in spacetime, the trajectories of the two ships are identical hyperbolas, side by side (a spatial translation). Picking an arbitrary point on the one belonging to the trailing ship, the direction tangent to the hyperbola represent the ship's time axis (light blue on the diagram). Orthogonal to this (inverse slope in the diagram, in light green) it the ship's line of simultaneity at that instant. It overshoots your line of simultaneity (light red, horizontal), intersecting the other's worldline at an event with higher velocity. Thus, the trailing ship sees the front ship pulling further and further ahead, as some have noted. The string stretches, and eventually breaks.
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Ariphaos »

Grfkl. Completely misunderstood the question, I did : /
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by bz249 »

Spoiler
The trick is not to get confused by the impure application of relativistic and classical principles. First one should think there are no such thing as absolute time, then remember yourself that all inertial reference frames are equal in rank.
So transform the situation from the exact reference frame to an arbitrary one having a velocity 'u' in respect to you. In that reference frame it will be clear that Alice have a velocity v(t) while Bob has a velocity v'(t), which is not equal with v(t).
Now the problem is way easier two spaceships of different velocitie are connenected with a string. Of course the string will break.
By choosing a really peculiar frame of reference (the initial one) the Lorentz-contraction (well this is also a bit misleading, since Lorentz-contraction traditionally means the distance contraction of two stationary objects due to the change of reference frames; but in this case there is no frame of reference where both Alice and Bob are stationary) cancels out their velocity difference. This is however is not observable in any other reference frame, so select one randomly and most of the mess is cleared. :wink:
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Terralthra »

Ah, I misread the problem. I thought that the ships were side by side, not fore and aft. Does that change the solution?
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Ariphaos »

Spoiler
Yes, because if two ships start at a different distance from you and accelerate to maintain the same velocity with respect to you, their velocity with respect to each other must differ slightly.
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Surlethe »

Hmm. So what's the problem with the intuition I posted on the previous page? Is it just simply, misguidedly wrong?
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Darth Holbytlan »

Kuroneko wrote:Spoiler
Darth Holbytlan's reasoning is pretty clear as to why (although Glass Pearl Player also stated the right answer as a particular case before that, and others stated pretty much the same thing afterward as well):
Darth Holbytlan wrote:From your point of view, Alice and Bob maintain the same velocity at all times. Therefore they maintain the same distance at all times in your frame of reference. But this means the distance is increasing between Alice and Bob's vessels in their frame of reference.
This is pretty direct: if the contracted length L/γ is constant, where L is the proper length of the string, then since γ is increasing with velocity, L must be increasing. Thus, the string is being stretched, and therefore eventually breaks. (Note: DH's footnote caveat is equivalent to saying that the acceleration is small, although the conclusion is true regardless).
Spoiler
I don't like my fudging the difference between Alice and Bob's frames of reference—especially since the string can only stretch because Alice and Bob don't stay in the same frame of reference. Since posting, I've thought of an easy fix that avoids the problem. Namely, pick the point midway between the two ships. It accelerates in lock-step with Alice and Bob (from your POV), but from its frame of reference Alice and Bob get further and further away. (This is similar to what b249 just posted.)

What I like about my reasoning is that it makes it clear that the string stretches indefinitely and therefore must break (since γ goes to infinity). I think just figuring out that the velocities differ makes it harder to intuit that they don't, say, approach each other asymptotically with the string stretching towards but not reaching a certain length.
Surlethe wrote:Hmm. So what's the problem with the intuition I posted on the previous page? Is it just simply, misguidedly wrong?
Spoiler
The idea that "physically significant" events must occur to all observers is quite correct. But it doesn't really answer whether the string snaps. In fact, the string snaps according to all observers.

I would say that Lorentz contraction is not a purely coordinate effect, though. It's quite real. All of the physics involving Alice, Bob, their ships, and the string work perfectly well in your frame of reference. You could theoretically work out that the string snaps without ever transforming coordinates, but it's intuitively much easier to solve with the transformation. However, you cannot assume that transforming results in a frame of reference where nothing is happening.
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Akkleptos »

What is the mass of said string? Acceleration force rides on mass...

You said "intuitions", so I expressly avoided reading other responses after reading the OP.
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Kuroneko »

Akkleptos wrote:What is the mass of said string? Acceleration force rides on mass...
Say, forty-two in some units of mass. The only important part is that its mass is much lower than those of the ships, so it doesn't affect their accelerations in a measurable way (or the ships compensate for it to keep identical accelerations in your frame), and that its strength is not enough to pull the ships away from their trajectories. You can assume that if it's tugged on any more than it takes to accelerate the string itself, it will break.

--- Spoiler
In one sense, Bob's reason isn't wrong: Lorentz contraction is a part of a coordinate transformation, and the universe doesn't come with coordinates. Similarly, accelerating an object doesn't cost any extra energy to do 'work' against Lorentz contraction in the way that a compressing it would. What gets him in trouble, though, is acceleration is an absolute quantity that changes reference frames.

I'm not really sure how to answer your question except trying to demonstrate that the contrary conclusion is intuitive (with the further virtue of being correct). Let's look at Alice's ship instead. Suppose that it accelerates rigidly, where in this relativistic context 'rigid' just means that Alice doesn't notice any deformation. Suppose you measure the back endpoint to have a constant acceleration. In your frame, however, the ship is Lorentz-contracting, so the endpoints get closer together--the ship's endpoints don't have the same acceleration!

In this thread's problem, it doesn't matter where on the ships the string is attached (that kind of thing was not at all the intent of the problem, but it fails to work even if one tries to be that clever), because constant comoving length implies a monotonic decrease of acceleration in that direction.

Exercise: show that for a rigid rod with back endpoint acceleration of a0 parallel to the rod, a distance x along the rod (in the instantaneously comoving frame, positive in the direction of acceleration) accelerates at a = a0/[1 + a0x/c²]. Here again, 'rigid' means that in every instantaneously comoving inertial frame, its length is constant; in STR jargon, it is 'Born rigid'.

That's a happy result: if the ship accelerates rigidly with some point having a constant acceleration, then every point on it has a constant acceleration, as they should have. It's just not uniform in magnitude across the ship. And there's another: at a distance of c²/a in on direction, the acceleration becomes infinite. Physically, there's an event horizon (technically, Rindler acceleration horizon)--in terms of spacetime diagrams, though, it's necessitated by the fact worldlines of constant acceleration are hyperbolas, and hyperbolas have asymptotes.
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Terralthra »

Xeriar wrote:Spoiler
Yes, because if two ships start at a different distance from you and accelerate to maintain the same velocity with respect to you, their velocity with respect to each other must differ slightly.
Ships side by side need not start at different distances from you.
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Ariphaos »

Terralthra wrote:Ships side by side need not start at different distances from you.
Correct, which violates the condition Kuroneko specified.
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Terralthra »

So, I'm confused. I said
Ah, I misread the problem. I thought that the ships were side by side, not fore and aft. Does that change the solution?
And you replied
Yes, because if two ships start at a different distance from you and accelerate to maintain the same velocity with respect to you, their velocity with respect to each other must differ slightly.
Were you talking to someone else? Because saying "That's not the original problem" is simply restating what I already said.
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Ariphaos »

Kuroneko wrote:Parallel (or really, any direction not perfectly perpendicular to). Apologies for the ambiguity.
Sorry, I should have pointed to the clarification. The string cannot be perpendicular to the direction of motion in order to satisfy the question.
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Re: Physics challenge: stringy ships

Post by Ar-Adunakhor »

Spoiler
It is my intuitive understanding that it is a purely coordinate effect and from it's own frame of reference it won't have meaningfully altered. From an outside frame of reference it could be that the string is so warped that it could be considered broken, but if they slow back down at a rate appropriate to the string's survival it should be intact. I think. Therefore I would say Bob is right.
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