Moderator: Vympel
Can we conclude from this that they destroyed other lifepods with lifeforms on them? Or did the Tantive IV simply jetison some other lifepods?At the beginning of EP IV wrote:-"There goes another one"
-"Hold your fire, there is no lifeforms"
The moral dissonance in your post really kind of blows my mind. So there's nothing wrong with blasting troops who fled in unarmed escape pods to avoid a certain execution (and in all probability, torture and interrogation with a mind probe)?I don't really see anything wrong with it. The people using life pods to escape were doing exactly that, trying to escape as opposed to abandoning a sinking ship as the ship was in no danger of destuction. Its no different than straffing a retreating column of infantry.
The Empire obviously did take prisoners other than Leia from the ship, I guess they were all executed for treason like she was about to be?
Well, they could have tractored them in, rather than firing on them. Or rather, it seems reasonable to me that they could: the tractor beam seems like the most likely method for retrieving their fighters, and ought to be able to be applied to escaping pods.Sarevok wrote:The pods and the people within may have knowledge about the death star. Destroying them was necessary to prevent this information from falling into rebel hands.
No other pods were launched on screen. The lines were as quoted in the OP -- as I and others have stated, it seems to indicate that they had been firing upon other pods prior to this one. Perhaps not this particular crew, since there might be more than one team doing the firing, but it's likely that they had standing orders to shoot down any escaping rebels. I'm really not sure where the reluctance to fire at an unoccupied pod comes from, other than reducing the possibility of collateral damage (which really isn't what we think of as top on the Empire's list of priorities).Richelieu wrote:Did we see other lifepods being launched? I don't remember this scene in details, but I remember interpreting the order not to waste time firing on the escape pod as if the pod was unimportant because there was noone inside, and I interpreted it as "the launch was a malfunction, nothing important is happening". It may be far fetched, but it actually never occurred to me they could be in the process of firing at other lifepods and stopping because one among of a lot of them was empty. Would they waste time in scanning pods if they had gunners shooting at lifepods already?
It is dehumanizing. Realistically wearing such outfits make sense when dealing with situations involving vaccum, poison gas, flash bangs, shrapnal and the like. Maybe you can make a helmet that projects the users face upon it surface.(concealed faces are almost exclusive to the bad guys in media for some reason)
At this point they are still a minor terrorist group.Keep in mind at this point the Rebels have actively begun the rebellion and started the Galactic Cival War.
Or they could have just rounded them up and dumped them in the hold and dumped them on Byss. Or mind wipe.The only real attrocity we see the Imperials commit pre Alderaan, is the killing of Owen, Beru, and the Jawas and honestly I'd be surprised not see any government do the same or similar during a war and involving classified strategic information.
Maybe you're one of those people who don't really pay any attention to the movies you watch, but I believe there was something in the movie that explained all of your points quite clearly....give it a read over and see if you can't spot some subtle, almost hidden information pertaining to what you said:Wing Commander MAD wrote:I'll note its been awhile since I've seen the movies, but if I were approaching it from a first time viewer there are a few problems.
Funny thing, there really is not indication Imperials are the bad guys in the movie other than they have scary looking armor on (concealed faces are almost exclusive to the bad guys in media for some reason) at this point, and the guy in charge wears all black. Heck, all we really see is a ship and its crew that we find out by dialog are committing treason attempting hide behind thier diplomatic immunity once caught. The only inkling at this point that the imperials are the bad guys is the concern over the senate and not to be worried as it is going to be dissolved soon by the Emperor, or whatever the line was. At this point, ANY governement, hell even the Rebellion/New Republic would do similar I imagine, is probably going to execute all who were involved in the little affair and make the bodies disappear, all while making it look accidental. Hell the best anology I can think of is if some scientist involved in the Manhattan Project decided try and smuggle the plans for the first atomic bomb to either Germany, Japan, or even Russia. In the end it did happen and the Rosenbergs were executed, with the main difference being that it happened during peace time (relatively). I can guarantee that something like that happening during war time would likely not be as public and we may or may not ever hear about it. Keep in mind at this point the Rebels have actively begun the rebellion and started the Galactic Cival War. Even the whole Imperial Senate spiel doesn't strike me terribly odd considering we find that the Rebels are attempting to use senatorial powers held by thier members to carry out their actions, although it does set off dictator siezing power alarm bells.The only real attrocity we see the Imperials commit pre Alderaan, is the killing of Owen, Beru, and the Jawas and honestly I'd be surprised not see any government do the same or similar during a war and involving classified strategic information. Maybe I'm abit more synical than most, but not many of the actions up till Alderaan strike me as things generally only in the realm of movie villians.
(some emphasis mine)Translation: you're a dumbass.The opening crawl wrote:It is a period of civil war.
Rebel spaceships, striking
from a hidden base, have won
their first victory against
the evil Galactic Empire.
During the battle, Rebel
spies managed to steal secret
plans to the Empire's
ultimate weapon, the DEATH
STAR, an armored space
station with enough power
to destroy an entire planet.
Pursued by the Empire's
sinister agents, Princess
Leia races home aboard her
starship, custodian of the
stolen plans that can save her
people and restore
freedom to the galaxy....
I'd say major terrorist group - or have we forgotten "Dangerous to your starfleet, perhaps, but not this battlestation". Any terrorist group today who could be a credible threat to the United States Navy's warships (even after adjusting for some hyperbole on the part of the Admiral who said it) in the open sea would be a terrorist group of significant note, not "minor".Samuel wrote:At this point they are still a minor terrorist group.
When I first saw the movie I just thought other pods had shorted out and been accidentally launched. We don't actually see anyone else in the escape pod boarding area, unless the other pods are boarded elsewhere.The lines were as quoted in the OP -- as I and others have stated, it seems to indicate that they had been firing upon other pods prior to this one.
Apart from:Funny thing, there really is not indication Imperials are the bad guys in the movie other than they have scary looking armor on (concealed faces are almost exclusive to the bad guys in media for some reason) at this point, and the guy in charge wears all black.
How about simply not wanting to waste the energy?I'm really not sure where the reluctance to fire at an unoccupied pod comes from, other than reducing the possibility of collateral damage (which really isn't what we think of as top on the Empire's list of priorities).
I am glad I was not the only one with this interpretation.Bounty wrote: When I first saw the movie I just thought other pods had shorted out and been accidentally launched. We don't actually see anyone else in the escape pod boarding area, unless the other pods are boarded elsewhere.
I was going with a failure linked to the damages: poof, all shutte launched. And Imperial gunners not bothering with finishing them off since they couldn't get any lifesigns in them (which is incredibly sloppy when you think of it).(Random, unsupported speculation; maybe Leia just hit a few launch buttons randomly to create a diversion fo R2's pod to launch safely?)
Though I agree with most of your other points about being evil, this particular planetary-scale genocide might not qualify as evil. What's the point of a deterrant psychological weapon if you don't use it once to deter people from messing with you? I am not sure the IJN would have surrendered if instead of two nukes, they had received video footage of the mushrooms and a special invitation to come and visit the reseach facilities and see it's for real and not some visual effect. It's certainly not nice, but evil, I am not sure (if you ask Hiroshima inhabitants, of course, the answer would be a definite yes). Blowing Alderaan would have forced many insurgeants worlds to surrender without fighting, sparing the lives of their inhabitants who would have otherwise been exposed to deadly assaults by ground forces.And that's before we get into planetary-scale genocide. The Empire, not evil in this movie? Bitch please.
Deter who? The people of the Empire who have accepted the Imperial rule, if grudgingly, and who wouldn't have a hope of standing up against the military? Or the rebellion, who would - and did - use the loss of Alderaan as a rallying cry?What's the point of a deterrant psychological weapon if you don't use it once to deter people from messing with you?
They got information they can use to destroy the Death Star. Which is the most powerful weapon in the galaxy. How do you propose to stop them ? Send a message asking them to politely hand over the information ?- Illegally attacking and boarding a vessel flying under diplomatic protection. You could argue they had pressing reasons to do so, but if those reasons were legitimate, why the worry over the Senate's reaction?
- Torturing and killing a ship captain who has already surrendered
- Using force to conceal the creation of a terror weapon which we can safely conclude would not have been approved by the democratically-elected representatives of the people of the Empire (again, why else would the Senate be a concern?)
- Using deadly force on unarmed, fleeing escape pods when their interception and peaceful capture is well within the Empire's abilities
- Indiscriminate killing of several dozen civilians as retaliation for having been in contact with rebel sympathisers (I question the alternative rationale here: if it was really a case of getting rid of anyone who could have a copy of the plans for reasons of imperial security - why was Mos Eisley, or by extensions the whole of Tatooine, spared?)
Not building a Death Star would be an awesome start, if you're trying not to be evil. Failing that, get permission from the senate to arrest the spies on grounds of national security, give them a open-and-shut trial for treason, and spin it into a great coup for the safety and stability of the Empire.They got information they can use to destroy the Death Star. Which is the most powerful weapon in the galaxy. How do you propose to stop them ? Send a message asking them to politely hand over the information ?
You speak as if the Star Wars galaxy is one country when it is not. The galaxy is composed of many star nations like the Hutts, Correlians, Kuatis, Mon Calmari etc. There are also megacorporations that own thousands of star systems and employ their own starfleets of powerful warships. Just few years before the events of ANH an alliance of these corporations and out rim nations were enough to challenge the Republic. There is no indication Palpatine demilitarized every star nation, corporation or even mercenary groups. They still have sizable armadas and only the overwhelming might of the Imperial Starfleet makes them accept the Galactic Empire as the superior authority.Bounty wrote:Deter who? The people of the Empire who have accepted the Imperial rule, if grudgingly, and who wouldn't have a hope of standing up against the military? Or the rebellion, who would - and did - use the loss of Alderaan as a rallying cry?What's the point of a deterrant psychological weapon if you don't use it once to deter people from messing with you?
1.) You used dissonance incorrectly.The moral dissonance in your post really kind of blows my mind. So there's nothing wrong with blasting troops who fled in unarmed escape pods to avoid a certain execution (and in all probability, torture and interrogation with a mind probe)?
1.) All of them were in fact declared traitors of the legitimate government. Lots of countries in our own history execute traitors, and it was certainly within the legal authority of both Vader and Tarkin to order executions.If the Empire wished to conduct this operation in an ethical manner, then they should have, you know, not executed the surrendering prisoners (IIRC the EU confirms no non-droid survivors except for Leia) and they could easily have tractored escaping pods instead of blasting them. But then, if the Empire did very many things in an ethical manner, the Rebels wouldn't have been out there in the first place.
Destruction as a result of combat (or scuttled thereafter) and obviously not before the Empire removed everyone onboard. This is not the same thing as a lifeboat escaping a shipwreck, the people fleeing the Tanative were attempting to ESCAPE, if they just wanted to survive they should have surrendered. That they would face the consequences of their willing treason after the fact is irrelevant.According to the EU the Tantive IV was in fact shortly destroyed, so it's fair to say the ship was in imminent danger of destruction as well. Again, this is why the Rebels were out there in an armed ship...the Imperials are dicks. (At the very least the ones who are taking direct marching orders from Vader at the time.)
If I remember correctly this was said just after we see a very large explosion from a turbolaser blast just forward of the engine banks. I took that to mean that th reactor was taken out, and with an ISD taking pot shots at you a prediction of "being destroyed" is a no brainer.EDIT: Another thought just crossed my mind. Remember the first line of the movie?
C-3PO: "Did you hear that? They've shut down the main reactor. We'll be destroyed for sure! This is madness!"
It sounds like a probable sequence of events is that the captain of the ship attempted to surrender and complied with Imperial orders to shut down his reactor. Of course, it's also possible that the reactor was about to blow or something, but consider the following:
1) C-3PO, of all people, thinks shutting down the reactor is a bad idea and will lead to "being destroyed" by the Empire. He turns out to be absolutely right.
Vader didn't just attack the vessel out of hand. He knew that the ship was complicit in treason. It matters not whether those on board knew anything about the plans, its no concern of Vader's whether the government of Alderaan kept its rank and file in the dark about its treasonous activities. If you have a problem with Leia's guards and the crew of the Tanative being the unwitting pawns of the government of Alderaan, take it up with Alderaan.2) The captain, in his last oxygen-deprived moments, is lying to Vader in order to buy time for Leia, but he's sticking to the "we are on a diplomatic mission" line. If he opened fire first on the Star Destroyer, Vader wouldn't need to nitpick that the ship had no ambassador. This is evidence that the Devastator simply popped out of hyperspace and blasted the Tantive IV, leading to a frantic attempt by the command crew to save the ship and mission, first by returning fire, then by submitting to boarding. Leia's guards put up armed resistance, but a) it was justified considering the stormtroopers not only BLEW UP THE DOOR, but FIRED FIRST, and b) they may not have even known that the ship surrendered since everything happened so fast. A number of them did surrender in the end and look where that got them.
Sorry, this doesn't fly.So yeah, in this context, blowing up escape pods might not have been EXCEPTIONALLY atrocious. It was just the cherry on the atrocity pie.
They were resisting arrest. Specifically the people with the plans were in a warship engaged in battle with Imperial warships. They made no attempt to hand over the plans peacefully and give themselves up as prisoners.Bounty wrote:Not building a Death Star would be an awesome start, if you're trying not to be evil. Failing that, get permission from the senate to arrest the spies on grounds of national security, give them a open-and-shut trial for treason, and spin it into a great coup for the safety and stability of the Empire.They got information they can use to destroy the Death Star. Which is the most powerful weapon in the galaxy. How do you propose to stop them ? Send a message asking them to politely hand over the information ?
The only reason the plans even got down to the planet was because Vader wanted to do a simple stop-and-search in a heavy-handed way to keep it away from the Senate's eyes.
No, they were resisting an illegal boarding attempt, one which Leia had every intention of officially protesting in the Senate. With no authority to attack or board the Tantive (which, remember, was a diplomatic ship, traditionally granted every immunity) her captain had every right to resist what was at that point an unprovoked attack.They were resisting arrest. Specifically the people with the plans were in a warship engaged in battle with Imperial warship. They made no attempt to hand over the plans peacefully and give themselves up as prisoners.
