SDN World 3 Commentary Thread I

[Mr Bean]

Let me build a bring from one desolate spot to another desolate spot! Brilliant!
(The island is also called Perim in other text, I don't know if that's the old name or new name under Yemen)


The two nearest towns of note are both over 80 km's away across featureless land. Niether of which is a port town.
So to build Fort you need
1. A port
You don't have one so you have to build one
2. Facilities
Don't have those either
Have to build one
3. Concrete or a Concrete plant
Unless you want to transfer it in from your port you have to build one on site
4. Roads
Gotta build them all
5. Fresh Water
Wonder why there's almost nothing there? You need desalination because there's no sources of water available for sixty kilometers. For the men not for the concrete.
6. Governments willing to simply sit back and let you build this

[Mr Bean]

In our timeline, nope. But this is a timeline in which a rail line extends all the way to Mecca and a hundred or so miles past it; so...

There's two towns of less than 1000 people within 100 km's of that island. No natural resources of note. Even if the railroad is there there's a limit to alt history.

Who knows perhaps your forts are also defend not just by massive guns but also by free roaming Dinosaurs! Because you totally found some T-Rex eggs while digging the roads you need to move supplies so you can build the factory you need to produce the concrete you need to build the pipeline to get it on the island. All within the last ten years when the techniques to make 16 inch guns became available...

[Beowulf]

Incidentally, the 5 fortress divisions I have listed for the Army of Heilongjiang garrison a system of interlocking fortification guarding the northern border. Possibly just a bit paranoid about the Russians, who have already invaded me at least twice, once in recent history. (I'll forgive for the first one, the Chinese Orthodox Church makes for some interesting ideas). Designation of them might change from infantry to artillery, to better reflect the fact that they're to man the guns, not fight in the open. It would also reflect the greater amount of support personnel that makes them up.

[Agent Sorchus]

Look, my only problem with this is that it looks like Shep is making decisions for Lonestar. Lonestar had his own way of dealing with the situation, operation Exodus, where he would have mined that strait anyway. But that is not good enough for Shep so we get this mess of defenses as far away from the Shepistan/Dominion conflict as they could possibly be, with no purpose in a war against Shepistan, that would put a really serious diplomatic strain on the Grand Dominion.

So this is what I humbly suggest:

• no mine field
  Heavy batteries are mostly uncompleted
  But there are a large number of non primary guns and fortifications finished.

Fortification unfinished due to secondary nature in the conflict between Shepistan and the Dominion along with diplomatic protest of the planned fort.

You get the Fort, but it is not that grand. 10x 5in guns 3x 8in guns and 2x 9.2in guns completed.
9.2 in guns hit out to 26km which is just going to reach any ship in the strait from the Island.

[Steve]

A reasonable suggestion.

[K. A. Pital]

Actually the Chinese did construct quite a lot of fortifications during the 1920s on the Eastern Railroad, so I don't mind.

As for "trade and talk", I don't know just what you're talking about. How and why would the USSR trade with Manchuria, when that nation is like a sore spot for us, eh? IRL the USSR was one of the most closed nations - one of the benefits of commie-ism. Now, I'll grant that to your intelligence still, because discerning mobilization is not too hard, and IRL during 1929 Eastern Railway conflict the Japanese successfully uncovered that the USSR was moving tanks and several hardcore units to the frontline (not that it helped the Chinese anyhow, but intel did work).

[MKSheppard]

Look, my only problem with this is that it looks like Shep is making decisions for Lonestar.

Excuse me, but who made the post introducing Fort William? Certainly not me.

But that is not good enough for Shep so we get this mess of defenses as far away from the Shepistan/Dominion conflict as they could possibly be, with no purpose in a war against Shepistan, that would put a really serious diplomatic strain on the Grand Dominion.

Lonestar and me really haven't fleshed out our nations back stories that much, beyond the rough crayon sketches needed to set up the game so far.

I can't imagine many nations were too happy with the Grand Dominion grabbing Yemen as a colony in response to the Sheppos grabbing Oman; considering Yemen's vital strategic location. It's entirely plausible that there were...tensions rising to the level of a war.

[Ryan Thunder]

I have several fortifications along the length of the Panama canal, and a string of them along my Atlantic coastline at major ports.

Since Chiletina is building up I may start fortifying my Pacific coast, as well.

[K. A. Pital]

Just to be fair, I want to warn Beowulf in advance that a war between the USSR and Manchuria will probably happen anyhow, almost regardless of his actions. The term of this war is not set, however - that means it could start this year, next year, or any following year of the inter-war (pre-WWII) period.

In this war, Russia would be pursuing the goal of securing the sparsely inhabited parts of Manchuria, the territories of IRL Soviet Far East. It would not make moves over Korea, or other densely populated regions. The cause of war could be mutual border provocations, irritation over executions of communists, or any other pretext that the USSR will find suitable. If no such pretext could be found, then the war will be done to "liberate the workers of Manchuria".

Shall Russia be in such a war defeated, or drawn to any outcome that has not reached the desireable goal of securing the pacific port of Vladivostok or some other pacific port capable of serving the same function, Russia will attempt this many times until the passing of year 1945. Has the year 1945 been passed, Russia shall not attempt landgrabs any further if it failed to secure the land by that time.

[Lascaris]

I have several fortifications along the length of the Panama canal, and a string of them along my Atlantic coastline at major ports.

Since Chiletina is building up I may start fortifying my Pacific coast, as well.

Ok since forts seem to be sprouting like mushrooms all over the place perhaps it is time to actually list existing forts in the OOBs now that we are just starting and even put some limits on the number and size of forts relative to economy and industry? Otherwise next year I'll just be claiming I have the Maginot line built perimetrically around my borders and so will be doing everyone else.

[K. A. Pital]

By mod fiat claiming to have built a Maginot line will do bad things to your economy, I think.

The line will also be in many places under-armed, etc. depending on length of borders (see USSR's failure to properly arm and properly make enough concrete to fully equip the Stalin line), and additionally can be lowered in efficiency as the armed forces mature enough to break through such lines.

[loomer]

Clearly the People's Republic of Afghanistan has one giant fort encompassing its borders. Really big walls, a kilometre high! Everything is just inside them!

What about spending two points in upkeep per fort per year and maybe ten to construct them? That way you can still establish heavy fortifications but it'd be something you'd have to note and budget for, without it being too much of a drain.

Serious thought, now: Stas, would it have been considered an offensive act on the part of the Afghanis to build a couple of forts along the northernmost borders between Russia and Afghanistan?

Also, would they have tried to invoke a communist revolution in the nascent state? I was toying with having that as part of the backstory, but obviously I'd rather check that first.

[Czechmate]

Just to be fair, I want to warn Beowulf in advance that a war between the USSR and Manchuria will probably happen anyhow, almost regardless of his actions. The term of this war is not set, however - that means it could start this year, next year, or any following year of the inter-war (pre-WWII) period.

In this war, Russia would be pursuing the goal of securing the sparsely inhabited parts of Manchuria, the territories of IRL Soviet Far East. It would not make moves over Korea, or other densely populated regions. The cause of war could be mutual border provocations, irritation over executions of communists, or any other pretext that the USSR will find suitable. If no such pretext could be found, then the war will be done to "liberate the workers of Manchuria".

Shall Russia be in such a war defeated, or drawn to any outcome that has not reached the desireable goal of securing the pacific port of Vladivostok or some other pacific port capable of serving the same function, Russia will attempt this many times until the passing of year 1945. Has the year 1945 been passed, Russia shall not attempt landgrabs any further if it failed to secure the land by that time.

Is it just me, or does this read like a verbose HoI2 event?

[MKSheppard]

Clearly the People's Republic of Afghanistan has one giant fort encompassing its borders. Really big walls, a kilometre high! Everything is just inside them!

Afghanistan IS a fort. I guess I need to write the PRA into Sheppoland's backstory. First Sheppo-Afghan War, Second Sheppo Afghan War.

[Ryan Thunder]

What about spending two points in upkeep per fort per year and maybe ten to construct them? That way you can still establish heavy fortifications but it'd be something you'd have to note and budget for, without it being too much of a drain.

Shep seemed to think they were pretty inexpensive, actually, being made of concrete and all...

[RogueIce]

So, a quick Google search reveals the 1925 Presidential inauguration isn't until March 4th. Thus my player avatar is not yet on scene. Still, agreements made already will be honored by the incoming administration. Being from the same party and all. Not that it's going to be exactly as it was in OTL, however.

[Coyote]

I don't mind, so much, the Sheppo/Domino war spreading to the Arabian Penninsula, but I have to agree that battleship-style forts in such an important international waterway would hardly go unchallenged. The partially-completed status is a good idea, and the Shep government used completed artists sketches of what the forts will look like when completed to spur quick action from his council.

[MKSheppard]

The partially-completed status is a good idea, and the Shep government used completed artists sketches of what the forts will look like when completed to spur quick action from his council.

Except per Lonestar's post, they already ARE completed. Things go fast when you have a lot of surplus guns and armor from a librul imposed naval holiday; up to complete battleship turrets.



Fjell Fortress in Norway achieved firing status in.......one year from the start of construction (late summer 1942 to June-July 1943) despite having to emplace a 1,000 ton turret from Gneisenau.

[Ryan Thunder]

So... everybody concerned just conveniently sat around with their thumbs up their asses while you did that?

[MKSheppard]

So... everybody concerned just conveniently sat around with their thumbs up their asses while you did that?

I'm sure there was a war in the 1900-1909 period which was victorious for the Goddamns over precisely this, giving the GDN the inflated sense of self it had before it's loss against the Sheppo navy in 1915.

[Ryan Thunder]

I'm sure there was a war in the 1900-1909 period which was victorious for the Goddamns over precisely this, giving the GDN the inflated sense of self it had before it's loss against the Sheppo navy in 1915.

Hah. I think Steve and a few other powers might have something to say about that.

[Mr Bean]

Fjell Fortress in Norway achieved firing status in.......one year from the start of construction (late summer 1942 to June-July 1943) despite having to emplace a 1,000 ton turret from Gneisenau.

Which ignores again the fact There is no infrastructure there
The roads near Fjell Fortress already existed. Bergen a major city was less than sixty kilometers away as the crow flies with all the material you need to make any number of bunkers or Movik which is less than twenty. Or Nese or Koltviet which are both less than thirty.

By contrast you have Adan, which is a major port and former British asset(Something I've never claimed so it was up for grabs) but you know what? It's 341 kms from the water-way between the mainland and that island.

Don't serious claim you went to the middle of fucking nowhere with no sources of fresh water handy, with no infrastructure period and built a massive fucking fort, or a fort period on that area, which is again the second most heavily traveled waterway in the world without anyone reacting in a year's time. And it's not a year's time it gets worse because you can't disguise the scale of that kind of building. There's not exactly tree's to hide on, your talking about building on sand and rocks on very flat land which is broken up by severe ridges. It's great defensive country to be sure(And once a fort is built there the north approach is a killing ground of twenty kilometers worth of nothing but flat-lands) But it's not something you can sneak it.

I still content there is no such fort because no such fort could have been allowed to be built for the reasons you already listed on how useful such a fort would be.

So... everybody concerned just conveniently sat around with their thumbs up their asses while you did that?

I'm sure there was a war in the 1900-1909 period which was victorious for the Goddamns over precisely this, giving the GDN the inflated sense of self it had before it's loss against the Sheppo navy in 1915.

The problem Sheppard is the fact by my count based on the 1912 peacetime cruiser records for Britain alone there should have been at least thirty eight naval British ships of various passing by this point going from the Mediterranean Sea to elsewhere or elsewhere to the Mediterranean. Never mind British merchant shipping. And Britain would never sat for such a base being built along it's primary supply line to it's Asian colonies. We tolerate Egypt we would not tolerate that. And we are not the only major nation to have done so.

[Steve]

Moreso, it's quite clear this fort only has one purpose: to permit the Grand Dominion to hold the vital Asia-Europe trade route hostage. There's no way this work would be tolerated. And it's not even reasonable to presume the Dominion would have done so when it's supposed to be facing off a perpetual foe in the middle of India.

I suppose if it was just an outpost, meant to warn of Shepistani ships moving north into the Red Sea, armed with maybe 6" guns, it'd be acceptable. But I'm agreeing that any number of European powers, including Egypt and/or Byzantium, would have pulled out the stops to prevent the fort from being built, and given the expense of such construction would have made the project untenable to the Dominion from a financial and diplomatic point of view.

As such, it cannot be the size claimed for it.

[Coyote]

It can be revealed that the massive battleship guns that are seen are, in fact, wooden dummy guns, meant to fake out the Shepppo navy, and the real turrets exist but cannot be emplaced yet as the concrete and steel reinforcements necessary are still not fully completed or ready to handle the weight/untested/etc.

[Bluewolf]

Just to be fair, I want to warn Beowulf in advance that a war between the USSR and Manchuria will probably happen anyhow, almost regardless of his actions. The term of this war is not set, however - that means it could start this year, next year, or any following year of the inter-war (pre-WWII) period.

I would like to say that the idea of the USSR occupying Manchuria is one that I am not fond of. The USSR already has a large influence and having that influence spread even further near China is not something I would be willing to accept. Likewise don't want wars in my own backyard.

I would be willing to talk to you about this and to make sure that war does not happen. Just because I have not posted does not mean I am not in this game nor does it mean I don't read what is going on. I am sure we both don't want a little Northen brawl as it would harm both of our interests.