The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[open_sketchbook]

Heaven's gotta be involved, and it IS a military organization; they don't do the fighting directly, but they enable our boys to kick ass.

[Kodiak]

Always seemed to me that a sword would infer that they do fighting, while DiMON seems to be more the R&D/Transportation arm. Maybe something like a circle, where one half is Earth and the other Half is hell, and between the two is a stylized portal?

Maybe having something to do w/ that Yin-Yang symbol that Norman Baines was discussing? That could have potential. From the book:

"So I heard. You've seen this of course." Baines produced a black-and-white disk from his pocket, the circle divided by an S-shaped line that saw one half starting off at nothing and swelling out while the other collapsed the opposite way. One half was black, the other white and at the fullest point of each half was a small circle of the opposite color.

"Sure, its the Ying-Yang symbol. Hippies loved it." And that comment ages me he thought.

"Well, I was listening to Dr. Kuroneko and what he was saying made me think of this. Look, if we hold it so the dividing line is vertical, then turn it through 180 degrees, it shows exactly what he's been saying. One half forming and growing, then collapsing while the other does the same but in reverse phase. And the dots are the portals joining the two." He put the disk on the table and started turn it backwards and forwards.

"He's right you know. It does illustrate what you've been saying."

Kuroneko finished his drink. "Makes you wonder of the old Chinese philosophers had this whole thing worked out, doesn’t it."

"Taoist, but here's a funny thing. The same symbol, its called a Tajitsu by the way, crops up a lot of places. For example, one of the Roman Legions used the same symbol and it predates the Taoist version by a couple of centuries or more. It's believed some of Alexander's units used it as well. So did the Thebans. And there's stories that it turned up in ancient Egypt. Suppose the Tajitsu isn’t just a mystical symbol but is a descendent of something that was handed down from ancient civilizations to tell us what the universe is really like?"

[Pelranius]

I'm leaning to something looking a little like the KGB insignia, though maybe with an automatic rifle instead of a sword?

[open_sketchbook]

I gave it a try with a couple of weapons in mock-ups, but symmetry is best and guns tend not to be. Right now, I'm definitely leaning towards a streaking golden missile and silver trail dividing a sphere into blue-white (heaven) and red-black (hell), superimposed over a larger dark green sphere (for earth) and within a black-and gold border with the relevant text. I've got some homework to get out of the way, but I'll get a mock-up online Sunday at the latest.

[Pelranius]

I gave it a try with a couple of weapons in mock-ups, but symmetry is best and guns tend not to be. Right now, I'm definitely leaning towards a streaking golden missile and silver trail dividing a sphere into blue-white (heaven) and red-black (hell), superimposed over a larger dark green sphere (for earth) and within a black-and gold border with the relevant text. I've got some homework to get out of the way, but I'll get a mock-up online Sunday at the latest.

The missile is probably even better. After all, it sort of rubs in our obvious superiority in technology, with assorted implications.

[Saint_007]

Hi everyone. Long time fan of TSW, first time poster. Hopefully, you won't find me a nuisance...

Please note that when it comes to military tactics and specifications, I am a complete amateur. Feel free to correct me.

Looking over the course of the story (both Armageddon and Pantheonicide so far), I've noticed an evolution of warfare on the part of the demons (sorry for being redundant) from traditional Bronze Age/Medieval tactics to Napoleonic Warfare (Abigor's main assault on the HEA force in Iraq) to WW1 tactics (battle of the Plegethon(sp?) by Beelzebub) in order to fight the massive human superiority in weapons.

Where I'm getting to is this: the war against Heaven will start off with Angels using German tactics from WW2: blitzkrieg to soften up and break up human positions with extensive use of dive-bombers, followed by attempts to replicate Pearl Harbor's success (as it relied extensively on aircraft, even though there were mini-submarines and other naval units used by the Japanese in the attack) and maybe even a Battle of Britain style assault. Hopefully, this will lead to a Great Mariannas Turkey Shoot as the Angels run out of experienced combatants, but at this point we're counting chickens before they hatch.

If you think about it, an experienced Angel is about the same as a Zero or German Messerschmidt, if bigger in size. They can be made to carry heavy loads and drop them on enemy positions, and their "sonic laser" is about as effective as dogfighting machine guns (about the same speed, even though the sonic would be stronger). Of course, this means that against experienced human pilots in well-maintained supersonic aircraft, their only option is strength in numbers, which unfortunately they have quite a lot of in comparison to the HEA air forces combined.

As might be pointed out, the more desperate tactics would be utilised either by a Michael-Lan with his back to the wall, or by Yahweh should he realise he's being played for a fool and actually tries to take command. We should welcome the latter: as we all know, it was Satan playing Stalin that got him blown away (i.e. trying to command the war from his Throne instead of leaving it to the more capable commanders).

Tactics the humans might want to replicate are the Six Day War (where the Egyptian air force was hammered before it even got off the ground) and the 1982 Israeli Invasion of Lebanon (use of drones to lure out Syrian fighters and expose Syrian SAM sites before hammering them with the real assault out of the blue).

And yes, I know what people might say: "How about we actually wait till we get into Heaven before we try these fancy ideas, Einstein" Sorry, I just have a tendency to jump the gun at times.

Finally about the Tekuma (AKA the missing IDF SSBN): There are several possbilities as to what happened to it:

1. Its crew have just broken off contact due to an error or are setting up an attack. Either way, no need to worry.
2. Contact has been lost because the submarine developed a fatal error. And yes, I know, I've probably watched For Your Eyes Only one too many times. In this case... well, crap.
3. The Tekuma is being attacked by something and had to hide itself. Most likely a hostile, which means Heaven's sending something equally nasty at the Israelis. We'll just have to wait for the next chapter to find out.
4. The Tekuma has been subverted by fifth columnists on board. In which case, Heaven most likely has agents trying to take over a nuclear ballistic submarine. This is the worst possibility: Micheal-Lan would then have his Fourth Bowl - of nuclear fire instead of the regular variety.
5. Where'd the Scarlet Beast come from? It had to use a portal coming in. Maybe the Tekuma has found that portal (assuming the portal is on water). In which case, the HEA now has a nuclear submarine in Heaven.

Again, sorry for being verbose, but I was getting a bit of a withdrawal...

So where's the bar? I read somewhere that I had to post there otherwise I'd be considered a spambot...

[Manthor]

Hello All.

1st time poster from Singapore as well and I've been lurking here on and off for about a year.I also post under the same name at Comic Book Rumbles,where I learnt about the unfortunate flame wars involving Stardestroyer and CBR. Before my time though. .I still post there so yes I'm one of those fence-sitters.

I served as a Signaller in a Combat Engineer unit in the Singapore Armed Forces and had attachments to the School of Combat Engineers as well as School of Military Intelligence as a Safety Signaller during my two year conscription.Hoping to go back as a combat officer or military domain specialist eventually after getting my degree but we'll see.

I've been following the Salvation War for over a year and found it an incredibly 'awesome' fiction that would never get published anywhere else due to its nature. I'm honestly surprised to find a professional author working on an original fiction outside of his work and while I have never read any of Stuarts work I do find this story highly entertaining and intend to get his books if I ever come across them.

I'd just like to highlight Operation Paul Bunyan which I feel is something that could inspire Stuart a little,given that the entire nature of the operation was using a carrier air wing with long range bombers and special forces in an effort to cut down a tree.No kill like overkill....

And as a Singaporean fan,could I possibly put in a request for a little Singaporean glorification?We're a pretty insignificant little island nation but hell,I would love to see the Singapore Guards and Commandos get some combat action during a pacification war in Hell,fighting against the forces of Heaven or helping out the Russians. I imagine Singapore is a major contributor in the HEA given that we have 400+ aircraft to Australia's 270+ and Australia is a close strategic partner of the USA. Hope its not too much to ask Stuart!

[Simon_Jester]

Where I'm getting to is this: the war against Heaven will start off with Angels using German tactics from WW2: blitzkrieg to soften up and break up human positions with extensive use of dive-bombers, followed by attempts to replicate Pearl Harbor's success (as it relied extensively on aircraft, even though there were mini-submarines and other naval units used by the Japanese in the attack) and maybe even a Battle of Britain style assault. Hopefully, this will lead to a Great Mariannas Turkey Shoot as the Angels run out of experienced combatants, but at this point we're counting chickens before they hatch.

First, I do not think the parallels can really be drawn that closely. First of all, Salvation War angels have serious limitations as combat aircraft (being insanely slow), and have minimal air-to-ground capability.

Second of all, this is not "Reprise of the History of Warfare," this is something new. The demons 'advance' because their leaders are gradually starting to figure out the nature of what they're dealing with, and are coming up with strategies that are at least less horribly unsuited to dealing with the threat. They were primitive, but not stupid, so they managed to deduce better tactical doctrine for dealing with industrial-scale warfare and the existence of heavy weapons.

The angels would have to start the process all over. Moreover, they have absolutely no intention of opening major portals to send fighting forces against Earth, because any such portal significantly increases the risk that the humans will figure out how to launch a counterattack. So far, they're adopting what amounts to a strategy of raiding and terrorism, with a moderate amount of 'strategic bombing' in the form of weather manipulation.

Finally about the Tekuma (AKA the missing IDF SSBN): There are several possbilities as to what happened to it:

Nitpick: It is an SSN, not an SSBN; the nuclear missiles are cruise missiles fired from the torpedo tubes, not vertically-launched ballistic missiles like the American Trident missile. The main difference is one of range; the Israeli submarines' nuclear capability can't reach more than several hundred kilometers inland.

[*]Where'd the Scarlet Beast come from? It had to use a portal coming in. Maybe the Tekuma has found that portal (assuming the portal is on water). In which case, the HEA now has a nuclear submarine in Heaven.

There is no evidence for the portal being on water. Since the Scarlet Beast was first sighted near Jerusalem and Jerusalem is something like forty miles inland, it is unlikely that they emerged from the sea. Moreover, they would surely not have just left the portal open after the Beast passed through, any more than they did for the other attacks.

So where's the bar? I read somewhere that I had to post there otherwise I'd be considered a spambot...

That's a reference to Stuart's own website, not this one. They are having trouble with spam and spambots; we are not.

[Omega Scythe]

It's been five weeks. I think my soul has died. Oh well, wasn't much left of it anyway.

[JN1]

Nitpick: It is an SSN, not an SSBN; the nuclear missiles are cruise missiles fired from the torpedo tubes, not vertically-launched ballistic missiles like the American Trident missile. The main difference is one of range; the Israeli submarines' nuclear capability can't reach more than several hundred kilometers inland.

Hate to nitpick a nitpick, but Israeli submarines are diesel-electric, not nuclear powered, hence they are designated SSK, not SSN.

[Pelranius]

There's the possibility that one of the other gods might have snagged the Tekuma.

[JBG]

Hello All.

1st time poster from Singapore as well and I've been lurking here on and off for about a year.I also post under the same name at Comic Book Rumbles,where I learnt about the unfortunate flame wars involving Stardestroyer and CBR. Before my time though. .I still post there so yes I'm one of those fence-sitters.

I served as a Signaller in a Combat Engineer unit in the Singapore Armed Forces and had attachments to the School of Combat Engineers as well as School of Military Intelligence as a Safety Signaller during my two year conscription.Hoping to go back as a combat officer or military domain specialist eventually after getting my degree but we'll see.

I've been following the Salvation War for over a year and found it an incredibly 'awesome' fiction that would never get published anywhere else due to its nature. I'm honestly surprised to find a professional author working on an original fiction outside of his work and while I have never read any of Stuarts work I do find this story highly entertaining and intend to get his books if I ever come across them.

I'd just like to highlight Operation Paul Bunyan which I feel is something that could inspire Stuart a little,given that the entire nature of the operation was using a carrier air wing with long range bombers and special forces in an effort to cut down a tree.No kill like overkill....

And as a Singaporean fan,could I possibly put in a request for a little Singaporean glorification?We're a pretty insignificant little island nation but hell,I would love to see the Singapore Guards and Commandos get some combat action during a pacification war in Hell,fighting against the forces of Heaven or helping out the Russians. I imagine Singapore is a major contributor in the HEA given that we have 400+ aircraft to Australia's 270+ and Australia is a close strategic partner of the USA. Hope its not too much to ask Stuart!

Singapore is one of the fifteen. Per head of population you're the leaders!

In terms of aircraft, we have pigs and you don't. That's probably the only reason your aircraft have not been mentioned. None of our bugs have been mentioned etc.

And, Israel and most sub users have SSKs. Ballistic missile boats are generally nuclear, with two important exceptions.

[Saint_007]

Ouch, schooled . I guess this is what happens when someone acts smarter than they are

Thing is I thought Micheal-Lan would be smarter than the Baldrick commanders, seeing as how he's been keeping a closer eye than Yahweh has on the course of the war. If I were Micheal-Lan, I'd realise "hey wait a second - the Demons tried heavy ground assaults, and promptly got their asses beaten in. In fact, what gave the humans the most trouble is the Harpies. So just in case the humans ever get into Heaven, we're sticking to heavy aerial assaults and bombing runs." While it's not easy getting sulfur and brimstone in heaven, I'd imagine dropping a heavy rock onto the top armor of a Shilka or M1 is still no laughing matter. So, okay, comparing an Angel to a WW2 superiority fighter is a bad idea. The HEA will still have a numbers problem. But I'm still rooting for a 1000-to-1 kill ratio for the HEA (preferably higher).

And yes, I realised that Heaven isn't going to attack, leastways not while Micheal runs the show. However, as the saying goes: "If Mohammed will not come to the mountain, the mountain will come to Mohammed (to deliver the much needed beatdown)". The guys from DIMO(N) said they were close enough to crack the portals to Heaven, so hopefully it won't be far off.

Another question, though. While we understood from guys like "Mr. Phlops" that religious zealots were still running around, unswayed by Satan's crippling defeat and prompt assassination, whatever happened to Jack Chick? I hope we see him fired out of a cannon soon!

EDIT: Also, and I hope this isn't too much, I'm wondering how the various Arab armies are faring? I understand that they're going to be under French or Indian command, but I'm still curious.

[Simon_Jester]

Personally, I suspect that Jack Chick would have just laid down and died. He doesn't seem to be in it for the power; he's just batshit insane enough to actually believe the batshit insanity in his own pamphlets.

Hate to nitpick a nitpick, but Israeli submarines are diesel-electric, not nuclear powered, hence they are designated SSK, not SSN.

Oops. You're right.

[Teebs]

And, Israel and most sub users have SSKs. Ballistic missile boats are generally nuclear, with two important exceptions.

How fascinating, I thought all ballistic missile boats were nuclear, what are the two exceptions?

[TimothyC]

And, Israel and most sub users have SSKs. Ballistic missile boats are generally nuclear, with two important exceptions.

How fascinating, I thought all ballistic missile boats were nuclear, what are the two exceptions?

Well there were the modified Project 611s (Zulu V) and the Project 629s (Golf). It was a 629 that Glomar Explorer brought part of to the surface.

[EuelB]

It's been five weeks. I think my soul has died. Oh well, wasn't much left of it anyway.

You and me both! I hoping that Stuart will throw His Loyal Readers a bone. A few paragraphs will help with the hunger I'm feeling...

Hint, hint... [Puppy dog eyes]

[JN1]

Hate to nitpick a nitpick, but Israeli submarines are diesel-electric, not nuclear powered, hence they are designated SSK, not SSN.

Oops. You're right.

Don't worry about it, easy mistake to make.

[EuelB]

Another question, though. While we understood from guys like "Mr. Phlops" that religious zealots were still running around, unswayed by Satan's crippling defeat and prompt assassination, whatever happened to Jack Chick? I hope we see him fired out of a cannon soon!

While being an anti-fan of that person, I would never wish harm to That Person. By honestly portraying Yahweh as a spoiled child, he has contributed more to atheism than Madalyn Murray O'Hair ever did! What I really want to see is something like this...

The doors of the Psych ER slid open as two paramedics, one husky and middle aged, the other, younger and more slender, wheeled the gurney in. The charge nurse looked up from his computer screen and glanced at the man who lay sobbing on the gurney. Well dressed, neatly trimmed gray hair and beard, the nurse thought, We're still getting them, even this long after the Message? News in the past year or so had confirmed what the nurse had long suspected, that the so called "God of Abraham" was an asshole. Imagine being told you're not worthy of Heaven... "This the guy who melted down at Sears?"

"Yup." The older paramedic handed over a clipboard. "He was right in front of a wall of flat screen TV's when they showed the Beast attacking Jerusalem. They say he started screaming, then curled up on the floor. We gave him four mikes of Ativan, calmed him right down."

The nurse looked at the driver's license on the clipboard, then looked again. "Zachariah Charles? Hey, this is the guy who does those 'Zack's Tracts'!"

"Damn," The older paramedic looked over the nurse's shoulder, then at the patient. "I remember those things from when I was in high school. If I'd thought about it, I'd say he'd be the first to lay down and die when the Message hit."

The younger paramedic shook his sadly. "Wonder what kept him going for so long?"

"Ours is not to reason why," the charge nurse said, "ours is but to keep them alive. You transfer him to a bed, I'll call the shrink."

[Pelranius]

And, Israel and most sub users have SSKs. Ballistic missile boats are generally nuclear, with two important exceptions.

How fascinating, I thought all ballistic missile boats were nuclear, what are the two exceptions?

Well there were the modified Project 611s (Zulu V) and the Project 629s (Golf). It was a 629 that Glomar Explorer brought part of to the surface.

The PLAN apparently keeps its lone Golf around to test its SLBMs, incidentally.

[GrayAnderson]

Chick's contributed more to atheism? I prefer to think that he's contributed to the ability of Christians to engage in self-mockery, so over the top is his stuff. Also, as a Catholic, he gives me reason to facepalm at certain variants of Fundamentalist Protestantism...there are some honest, decent fundamentalists out there who I'd say are genuine in their faith and don't attack others (my grandmother and her pastor being two such people...Southern Baptists who are tolerant and accepting, especially within Christianity as a whole), but in my analysis Chick does not meet with that description.

[Simon_Jester]

It's a variation on the old joke about various incompetent soldiers and officers throughout history: that they deserve a medal... from the enemy.

But yeah, I see the humor. As far as I'm concerned, the "Zach's Tracts" bit is now quasicanonical; it's too funny not to be true.

[StrikaAmaru]

Having nothing (interesting) to read the past five weeks, I spent some neurons on Michael-lan-Michael's position and options. I'll present it here, hoping to temporarily alleviate some addictions.

It was my understanding that DIMON has acquired necessary coordinates, so it's only a matter of time before they break into Heaven, and very short time at that. Michael can try to slow them down, he'll only get defeats, inconclusive engagements and, with luck, phyrric victories.

From this crappy situation, I see exactly ONE option for Mickey to get out, for an acceptably long period of time. It's also utterly impossible to happen, because he'd have to admit he's hopeless, and I doubt his pride will let him. Basically, he needs to pack and retire on the 'other Earth', with the primitive species Yah-Yah found; therein, he and retinue will establish themselves as living gods, and they all live happily ever after, with the still-living creatures doing for them what dead-humans do now in Heaven. If he wants to further cover his tracks, he could go scanning for another bubble universe, but that's probably too risky, and almost certainly pointless.

For this scenario to function, he'd still need to tie some loose ends back home; most importantly, to subvert or kill all angels, and to purge all knowledge of other-Earth from Heaven (needless to say Yh-Yh must be killed, fast, ironically not because he's an ass, but because he knows too damn much). He can't afford to leave anyone behind, because they can find him.

It seems impossible to pull off something like this. The tight framework isn't the greatest obstacle; the Inquisition is. Their members aren't idiots, and short of hasty synchronized mass murder, he can't really remove all potential links. If it's recorded on paper, he'd need to remove that as well. He will be screwed if record of other-Earth remains; he will be screwed if anyone who can open a portal centered on him remains. He must leave behind a Holy City filled with dead angels, and hope he'll sucker Earth-humans into thinking angelic forces actually chose suicide, something a la Masada. He might still be screwed if Earth-humans do a headcount, and figure out he is missing; they do know him, after all.

And don't forget to kill Belial, too. I was tempted to leave him to Earth forces as lightning rod, but he knows Mickey and will certainly be persuaded to locate him ("give us Michael-lan; don't you want him to get fried?" "give us Michael-lan, and we'll kill you fast as opposed to slow").

Assembling a retinue will be difficult as hell, too. Michael already has an excellent idea re. what he's facing (I'm thinking here of his little waking nightmare, with tanks in the Holy City), and he still won't consider this particular scenario; a less informed angel won't even wrap his/her head around what will come to pass. Also, aforementioned mass murder is bound to scare silly even loyal angels; they won't believe the only one with a snowball's chance to keep them alive first must kill a portion of their population.

'Nother thing: This would automatically fall to pieces, if the soul-shunting has happened already, and other-Earth dead arrive in Heaven; from what I recall, that's not the case.

One more detail: they can't take any Heaven-humans with them. Earth won't stop chasing them if they do. Heaven-humans are sheep, twits and fanatics, most of them; but they are humans, and very much part of Earth's interests; governments won't leave x% of humans behind, no matter what; governments might wind up executing them, if they still hold on to this stupidity and act on it to do something harmful, but I'm certain Earth will just let them go.

[declan]

So who is going to see legion when it comes out, after reading the story to date the image of swarms of angels flying around, gives some nice visuals for the story.

Declan

[Saint_007]

Wow. That's a real Scorched Earth policy, even for a renegade Angel to follow. He'd also have to give up his band of talented humans, his nice, swanky night club, and either find a way to transport his massive stash of drugs or try and find a new source ASAP once he resettles. Escape, while tempting, is not a good idea; the humans would realise that Michael wasn't among the dead or the POWs, and will start a Heaven-wide manhunt. It's going to take a long, long time, but they'll keep trying to find him. The war would not be considered over until the last remnants of Heaven call it quits and turn themselves in.

I mean, would *you*, assuming you were in Petraeus' shoes, declare victory after Yahweh's defeat, knowing full well that his best and brightest general is out there, maybe even plotting for his eventual return? Or will you take the chance and assume he's not coming back? I doubt the humans would let him be, or even assume he's gone. A few centuries is yesterday to a demon or angel, after all. He just might come back to attack your grandkids or great-great-grandkids.

A much easier choice, leastways for Michael-Lan, is to say "Hey, look, I was just following orders, and Yahweh's completely insane! He'd have slaughtered me and my buddies if I didn't do what he said!!" It worked for Euryale, didn't it? And besides, it's not like anyone will ask Yahweh about that; knowing how deluded the jerk is, he'd probably not believe that he was losing right until a anti-capital ship weapon relieves him of his bowels (and other vital organs). As for the loyal angels, Michael would just send them on suicide missions (can you say "Russian front, WW2"? Lots of unwanted German generals lost their lives there) until he winds up with the small fry and civilians who aren't likely to question their surviving leader when he tells them to put down their arms and surrender before the humans slaughter them all. Michael's not going to be given Supreme Throne of Heaven if the humans make their way in, but this way he can keep his businesses growing. Provided he can keep the drug trade under control, or at least out of the way for the HEA, I think he might actually be considered a major benefactor to Heaven's society in future.

And yes, I am aware of the massive balls and karma houdini this entails. But it's Michael-Lan; I'm pretty sure he can pull it off.

As for the "other Gods"; the idea of them trying to steal nukes from an Israeli sub is just scary. They're either holding the nukes as collateral ("Don't invade us, we won't bother you, or nuke your cities") or they're actually considering fighting back the humans with their (humans') own weaponry. Besides, I think they already have Elvis, right?

EDIT: And in any case, Belial is a wanted war criminal. Euryale and Baroness Yuku might have gotten away with it thus far, but I doubt Belial would get off so easily. Unless he hires a human attorney (and yes, the "lawyers in Hell joke" is way, way overdone already) then he might get off on a loophole. If the Lawyer's good enough. Otherwise, it's centuries in prison or a direct trip to the execution chamber. If they ever do invoke the firing squad, they're going to need the A-10's machine gun.