SGU 108: "Time" (Spoilers)

[Oskuro]

This is your first mistake, and I think the one you're jumping off and leading into everything else.

Well, of course (although I do remember that Rush told the ship about their needs), as I said, I like the notion of the Destiny being more than it seems, and like to speculate in that direction, partly because that's what I expected of Atlantis, and was dissapointed at how the city was presented.

How does that follow at all? <snip> They don't need to build an AI that "talks to them" about solutions, because they would presumably have full access to all the data the scout ships are sending back, without need of the computer's help. And they could change course, stop, or bypass areas as required.

Exactly what I meant, Rush doesn't have full access to the ship's systems, I'm just suggesting that maybe the ship is designed to still be self-sufficient and protect its crew in the event of direct control capabilities being lost, as might happen from battle damage, for example.

I think the ship is a great character so far, but I think the ship is a great character so long as it doesn't become ultra smart.

Agreed.

Even Atlantis didn't demonstrate such advanced scanning technology.

Erm, didn't Atlantis enact quarantine protocols in detriment of crew when it detected possible contaminants?

It's far more likely the ship didn't know, and I think the idea of not having a god-like AI is a far better choice than what you propose.

I agree, I just found it way too convenient that they found exactly what they needed to survive on the next planet on their list, a planet they apparently had no other pressing reason to explore. Of course it's just writers fiat and all that, but fun to speculate nonetheless. Who knows, maybe Destiny has no AI but is an actual living cyborg-ship with an organic brain, or some other wacky thing.

[Manus Celer Dei]

As seen in 1969, you get plunked to a location where your destination should be, regardless. In 1969, they appear in the same place as the Earth stargate will be, but in a different time. They step out of an (illusory? temporary?) gate, which disappears, and they find themselves under a titan missile engine about to be test-fired in that silo.

Is it an illusory disappearing gate or just the wormhole? While still silly, the wormhole still somehow managing to open where it "should" be on it's own isn't nearly as bad as a magical appearing-disappearing phantom stargate.

[NecronLord]

It's a gate, sadly. Actually a whole gateroom, so perhaps they're projected back into the present, and then distorted into the past somehow? Effects just weren't thought through there.

[CaptJodan]

Erm, didn't Atlantis enact quarantine protocols in detriment of crew when it detected possible contaminants?

Inside it's own walls, yes. We're talking a confined area that the ship is responsible for, not an entire planet where the bug is likely dormant within the ice. Rush (or someone) even suggests that it might not have been in the entire block of ice, just a small section, but that it ultimately probably contaminated it all. One, probably dormant collection of germs, in an entire planet. Bit too much ancient wank for my tastes.

Besides, from what I recall, the virus Atlantis quarantined against was also a known virus, IE, one theorized to either be made by the Wraith or the Lantians, I can't remember which, but found in their lab. The Kirsan fever, on the other hand, was specifically mentioned by McKay as NOT being quarantined against, and yet it was a common virus in the Pegasus galaxy. These are both known diseases, whereas the gate building scout ships (which I hope we see before the show ends) or the Destiny would have to miraculously know that these previously unseen bugs are dangerous.

snip

I guess I just hope for less than that, as the ship is older than Atlantis (at the very least, not as up-to-date as Atlantis) and thus should have less, not more capability than the city. So far, the Destiny has responded a little higher than an attentive pet. Make it too smart, and we're right back to "Everything Core" and Asgard Beams of Doom territory.

Who knows, maybe Destiny has no AI but is an actual living cyborg-ship with an organic brain, or some other wacky thing.

Please....please no. By all means, speculate, but please...please let that not happen.

[PREDATOR490]

3 from me.

The time travel reset has been used far too often in modern series to be new or innovative and recently Stargate has been doing it quite a bit. Throwing in blood and gore with people getting killed left and right does not impress me when they are going to undo it. On the upside, I was expecting Eli to be the one to survive the original encounter due to that thing he ate which I'm glad he didnt.
Eli is rapidly approaching Neelix status for me with the geek / nerd approach they are taking and frankly, if he is supposed to be THAT much of a fucking nerd I would have expected him to identify it as being time travel rather than come out with the lame comedy situation of 'Alternate Reality' with everyone looking at him like hes an idiot. The situation with the Kinos quickly brought this episode down for me. It was a neat gimmick in the first few episodes but if Eli is going to continue being a walking sterotype for 'nerds' coupled with being the source point for their 'camera' work then the series is only going to continue getting 3s at best from me.

I would have expected Destiny to have a decontamination system, at least I figured thats what that steam purge the gate does everytime the gate dials would be the same kind of steam the 'showers' use. Seems like retarded ship design to have such a gateroom setup like that without some mechanism for quarantine or something to monitor for contamination.
Of course, such a system could exist and thats what drove the Destiny to come to this planet. If the writers are seriously trying to be play with this new SGU dynamic then it seems out of place for them to rely on such a horrible act of plot convienience so I can only conclude this is the build up to Destiny having some sort of intelligence. In which case, whatever the seed ships are they must be relaying information back to Destiny after conducting extensive testing of the locations and Destiny selects the candidates from the information it gets based on the needs put in by Rush.

As for Rush, I can only speculate the woman he knew is either someone he wants to bring back via Ascension OR she somehow managed to Ascend herself and he wants to learn how to do it. Incidentally, that might explain why Destiny is so intelligent if it was getting 'helped' from some Ascended being.
The key to artificial ascension certainly would make Destiny 'the greatest discovery since the Stargate itself' but of all the places to find it Destiny seems the farthest from. Atlantis would have made the most logical choice and Anubis / Caleb certainly seemed to be well on the road to managing it so I dont see it being THAT hard to do. I would prefer they leave ascension out of this series as it will only serve to be a source of frustration when they write around the fact ascended beings are meant to be god characters that can do anything they want but dont because (insert vagure reason) but CAN do plot things because (allude to greater force or reason).

[Oskuro]

Inside it's own walls, yes. We're talking a confined area that the ship is responsible for, not an entire planet where the bug is likely dormant within the ice. Rush (or someone) even suggests that it might not have been in the entire block of ice, just a small section, but that it ultimately probably contaminated it all. One, probably dormant collection of germs, in an entire planet. Bit too much ancient wank for my tastes.

I was actually suggesting that the ship might have dectected the bacterial infection on its life sensors when it had already began, after consumption of the water. But yeah, I agree the ship shouldn't be that smart, again, just wondering because of the convenience of all of it.

Please....please no. By all means, speculate, but please...please let that not happen.

What, are you not hoping that the Destiny is being piloted by an ascended Asgard who boarded the ship running from a swarm of human form replicators who had learn to mimic the wraith and took fashion lessons from the Goaul'd?

[TheLostVikings]

Since nobody has posted it yet:



Basically an official short that gives some light into what happened in time line 3.

[Revy]

Oh for crying out loud ... I *just* found out about those and was about to post a link. Anyways, there's a bunch more, like mini webisodes. I think you can find the rest Here.

[tezunegari]

So Rush figured out (or believes to have done so) that the Destiny Gates predates the Stargates we know and is the prototype.

With the Antarctica gate being dated as 50 million years old that would make Destiny a really really old ship... and quite durable.
I wonder if the ship has some sort of self-repair system that is damaged right now.

[Oskuro]

Ooooh, so they kept the first time travelling Kino! That means the reset wasn't so thourough, good.

As for the Destiny's gate being the prototype, maybe Destiny was launched to seed the Milky Way itself before moving to other galaxies, and afterwards the Ancients updated the gates both in the MW and Pegassus.

To be fair, the original gate having a secondary spinning ring instead of the whole gate spinning does feel like an upgrade.

[CaptJodan]

Ooooh, so they kept the first time travelling Kino! That means the reset wasn't so thourough, good.

It doesn't make sense though. Did anyone, and I do mean anyone, see them take the first Kino through the gate when they went the second time? Because I cannot see why the first Kino would be there at all. Seems like a major, major plot hole to me. The first Kino should have remained on the second Destiny time line, and the only thing the third group should have found was Scott's personal Kino.

To be fair, the original gate having a secondary spinning ring instead of the whole gate spinning does feel like an upgrade.

I truly love the idea of the Destiny gate being an older gate, despite the fact that it does LOOK newer to me (it has lights, while Earth's is very mechanical). The one thing that really sells it to me is the release of...steam...or something....every time the gate shuts down. Annoying as hell, but it really gives me the impression that this gate is older, as it needs a kind of release for the heat buildup or something after it shuts down.

[Oskuro]

It doesn't make sense though. Did anyone, and I do mean anyone, see them take the first Kino through the gate when they went the second time?

Yeah, I agree, it makes no sense. Almost feels like the writers realized all the character growth from watching the first recording was gone, and forced the issue to avoid it (Kind of the thing I disliked, so neat seeing them pleasing me. AS IT SHOULD BE!)

I truly love the idea of the Destiny gate being an older gate, despite the fact that it does LOOK newer to me (it has lights, while Earth's is very mechanical).

Loving the idea, as well as the steam too. Still, remember that the Milky Way gates did have lights on the outer ring, indicating the locked chevrons.

[Xerxus]

It makes sense depending on when the second kino lands in time.
If it lands before kino-1, then it would create a new timeline in which kino-1 would not have landed. Scott would have to have thrown both kinos

If it arrives after Kino-1, then it would fly through the gate seeing the first kino already on the ground.

[Bounty]

It doesn't make sense though. Did anyone, and I do mean anyone, see them take the first Kino through the gate when they went the second time? Because I cannot see why the first Kino would be there at all. Seems like a major, major plot hole to me. The first Kino should have remained on the second Destiny time line, and the only thing the third group should have found was Scott's personal Kino.

Why would it be on the Destiny? The original loop still happened and it still got sent back into the past, just not in this iteration of the timeline, but that shouldn't affect the Kino.

[NecronLord]

It doesn't make sense though. Did anyone, and I do mean anyone, see them take the first Kino through the gate when they went the second time?

Yeah, I agree, it makes no sense. Almost feels like the writers realized all the character growth from watching the first recording was gone, and forced the issue to avoid it (Kind of the thing I disliked, so neat seeing them pleasing me. AS IT SHOULD BE!)

This is bugging me. Nothing significant in this episode was actually character growth. Character growth is, say, Daniel Jackson's development from weakling geek to family man to angel to hunky-action-hero-sage. This is character insight, and is not invalidated - in this episode, no one really learnt any significant lessons, aside from maybe Eli learning that Rush does like some films. The audience got insight into the characters, and short of deliberatley contradicting all that in future episodes, they cannot invalidate that.

There's character growth a plenty in the series as they bond and plot, but this particular episode had no character growth that was lost. It simply had insight, for the audience, which is also a perfectly valid way to write.

[NecronLord]

Also, I'm going to need stronger evidence on the idea that it predates it - I would rather say that either Rush is wrong, or Eli is recounting it wrong (favourite option) and Rush only means the Pegasus gates, than have Destiny be tens of millions of years old without stronger evidence than that. I may sign up on Mallozzi's blog to just ask that, actually.

[Oskuro]

I think there was character growth in several characters learning about how they behaved during the first timeline. They get to learn a lot about Eli, for example, about his mother, about his musings on mortality, about how he dealth with a horrible situation. We also get Greers (or however it is) having a personal crisis about all those people dying under his watch.

Also, I'm going to need stronger evidence on the idea that it predates it

If I remember correctly, the schematic of the first gate that we see in Ark of Truth does resemble the destiny gate more than the Milky Way gate.

[NecronLord]

Notebook drawing from Ark of Truth. It's much closer to a Milky Way gate, look at the glyphs and the chevrons.

However, the assumption is that he invented the thing. For all we know, he could merely have 'had a great idea' about upgrading their existing Astria Porta.

[Bilbo]

Notebook drawing from Ark of Truth. It's much closer to a Milky Way gate, look at the glyphs and the chevrons.

However, the assumption is that he invented the thing. For all we know, he could merely have 'had a great idea' about upgrading their existing Astria Porta.

My guess would be that the guy invented it, though that would not explain the existance of gates in the Ori galaxy since one would not expect such major scientific endeavors to be done by a people so opposed to scientific study. It is possible that the gates were a long range expansion of the Transport Rings which I could see being much simpler and existing before the Stargate.

As for Rush's comments about Ascension, when he said neither Eli or himself could ascend that he was saying they were not good enough. Maybe he has somehow convinced himself that maybe his wife ascended when she died. She could have been a researcher at the SGC and died in any number of ways. His obsession with the 9th chevron could be his way of trying to either prove himself worthy or to get far enough from the Milky Way that his acended wife can contact him without being stopped by the other Ascended Beings.

I know its not very likely but think of it this way. Rush obviously loves her very much, either he is a secret romantic or she died very recently and he is not over it. People who lose loved ones tell themselves all kinds of things to make themself feel better. We say the person "is in a better place" blah blah blah. Well Rush has one over you and I. He actually does know a better place exists. Anyone as deeply linked to the Stargate program as him has probably read up on all the known facts on the Ancients and Ascension. So no matter how unlikely he really can hold out some hope that his wife ascended, especially if she died or in some way or disapeared so that no body was recovered.

[Revy]

Well Atlantis is on Earth now (unless they move it in the next movie) and we know that it has a machine which is basically "Ascend or die". I suppose Rush's wife could have been working on Atlantis and used the machine.

As for using the Destiny to get outside of the Ancients/Others reach so she can talk to him, well Daniel not only talked to SG1 but in Full Circle he helped them find the Eye of Ra and alerted the System Lords of Anubis' intentions, all without so much as a slap on the wrist. It's only when he tries direct intervention (attacking Anubis personally) that Oma see's that he has crossed the line and pulls him out to avoid the wrath of the Others.

So although talking to lowers is against the ascended rules, it seems to be such a minor violation that they let it slide and just frown on ascended beings who do it.

Also, in the Ascended Times newspaper that Daniel reads, there is an article that mentions that the Ascended beings have actually discovered the edge of the universe itself, and that they previously believed the universe to be infinite. The paper actually gives the distance to the edge of the universe (Edit - from the centre), and states that Ascended beings have started playing golf there, hitting balls off the edge of the universe for fun. Whether the paper can be considered serious/canon or not I don't know, but if true (in universe) then it shows their reach can extend pretty damn far.

[Bilbo]

Well Atlantis is on Earth now (unless they move it in the next movie) and we know that it has a machine which is basically "Ascend or die". I suppose Rush's wife could have been working on Atlantis and used the machine.

As for using the Destiny to get outside of the Ancients/Others reach so she can talk to him, well Daniel not only talked to SG1 but in Full Circle he helped them find the Eye of Ra and alerted the System Lords of Anubis' intentions, all without so much as a slap on the wrist. It's only when he tries direct intervention (attacking Anubis personally) that Oma see's that he has crossed the line and pulls him out to avoid the wrath of the Others.

So although talking to lowers is against the ascended rules, it seems to be such a minor violation that they let it slide and just frown on ascended beings who do it.

Also, in the Ascended Times newspaper that Daniel reads, there is an article that mentions that the Ascended beings have actually discovered the edge of the universe itself, and that they previously believed the universe to be infinite. The paper actually gives the distance to the edge of the universe (Edit - from the centre), and states that Ascended beings have started playing golf there, hitting balls off the edge of the universe for fun. Whether the paper can be considered serious/canon or not I don't know, but if true (in universe) then it shows their reach can extend pretty damn far.

The assumption with Daniel was that Oma ascended him and kept him pretty much to himself. Didnt he say he had not met any of the other Ascended Beings. If this is the case then the same rules or freedoms may not apply to Rush's wife if she ascended in a way other than through Oma.

Do we have a timeline yet on when SGU is happening? The only other Ascended to interfere with humans directly was Morgan and at the end of Ark of Truth she had done the "epic battle until the end of time routine" with Vala's ascended daughter.

I would like to point out that I do not think Rush's wife ascended. My guess is that it will come out that this is just his mechanism for dealing with the grief.

[NecronLord]

My guess would be that the guy invented it, though that would not explain the existance of gates in the Ori galaxy since one would not expect such major scientific endeavors to be done by a people so opposed to scientific study.

There's no substantive evidence they've got more than one ordinary stargate in their galaxy, though it seems highly likely they do. And that could have been captured in some war with the Ancients long ago.

[NecronLord]

The assumption with Daniel was that Oma ascended him and kept him pretty much to himself. Didnt he say he had not met any of the other Ascended Beings.

He said he'd never met 'The Others' - which is to say the mainstream. He had, however, met Anubis as an ascended being, and possibly other renegades, or indeed, the Ori en masse.

If this is the case then the same rules or freedoms may not apply to Rush's wife if she ascended in a way other than through Oma.

Conversely, she may have greater, if she got it on her own technological or philosophical merits, then according to all we know, she would be fully accepted.

Do we have a timeline yet on when SGU is happening? The only other Ascended to interfere with humans directly was Morgan and at the end of Ark of Truth she had done the "epic battle until the end of time routine" with Vala's ascended daughter.

And Orlin, and Chaya Sar, and Anubis, and Myyrdin, and the Ori

I would like to point out that I do not think Rush's wife ascended. My guess is that it will come out that this is just his mechanism for dealing with the grief.

It's quite possible she could have, were she say, an SG scientist working with either ascendomatic machine we've seen.

[dragon]

Weren't there different periods at which different ancients operated as their empire arose and fell at different times due to plagues and enemy actions. So maybe the ship was launched by one of the groups then they lost a little of their tech and then rose again.

[Solauren]

My assumption with the Destiny is that it's launch is what spurred the Ori to use a disease to wipe out the Ancients in the Milky Way Galaxy (or as they called it, Avalon).

So they fleed to Pegasus (which they knew was fully seeded with Stargates) to rebuild while the disease/plague died out, or until they developed a counter for it.

When they were about ready to recolonize the Milky Way + contact the Destiny, the Ori stuck again, this time with the Wraith.

This would be an effective way by the Ori to keep the Ancients from spreading to dozens of other galaxies via the Destiny's Stargate Network, and screw around with their enemies at the same time.

The Ori got it right the second time, as the Ancients instead were nearly wiped out and instead Ascended.