Åland Islands may secede from Finland, says a politician

[Tiriol]

Åland Islands may try to gain independence from Finland, a Finnish politician warns; news by YLE News.

Link is in Finnish, since I haven't yet found any English versions of the news. However, I'll do my best to translate the article.

Åland Islands may seek to gain independence

The chairman of the Swedish Assembly of Finland, warns about Åland secceeding from Finland. If the Ålanders cannot conduct business with officials in Swedish, the demands for the Islands' independence may grow in strength, Member of the Parliament Anna-Maija Henriksson (Swedish People's Party) says.

Many Ålanders are already thinking about joining Sweden or gaining independence for their province.

There is already one active group operating in the Parliament of Åland trying to secceed Åland from Finland. The group is small, but Henriksson believes that it will gain support, if Swedish language's position is weakened. Currently a clear majority of Ålanders wants to remain under Finnish sovereignity.

Henriksson told YLE News that the Swedish-speaking people feel especially doubtful about the Finnish Centre Party's efforts to reorganize the local administration districts, a reorganization in which, among other things, the bilingual town of Kokkola would be added to Northern Ostrobothnia. The Swedish-speaking populace of Kokkola has traditionally been oriented to south, towards the towns of Pietarsaari and Vaasa.

In an interview with Hufvudstadsbladet, a Swedish-speaking newspaper, Henriksson named other incidences in the recent past in which Swedish-speakers see their position being threatened. They include, among other things, the closing of the birth center in Tammisaari, the cuts in YLE's Swedish activities and the lessening of Swedish teaching in schools.

The day when officials no longer know Swedish the retaining of Åland becomes difficult for Finland, Henriksson states. The constitutional rights of the Swedish-speaking populace must be guaranteed, in practice as well, she emphasizes.

For now, the cooperation has without unreasonable troubles, but the direction is for the worse, Henriksson believes.

YLE Uutiset

I doubt that this article will be translated into English any time soon, but maybe they will.

As for my personal take: to hell with them. Åland is the most priviledged of all of Finland's provinces and they get a lot more resources and money from the state than any other province - and their men are exempted from the military draft. If I've understood correctly, there are even some outstanding acts of Parliament of Åland which prohibit anyone who is not an Ålander from owning land in those miserable isles of theirs.

Sweden won't take them - at least not if the populace would want to retain their unbelieavable priviledges - and there is no way in hell that any Finnish government would allow Åland to secceed; it's too strategically important. This is nothing short of political blackmailing and threatening gestures, which will likely result in a pretty bad backlash.

Thread title fixed. Learn the difference between "succeed" and "secede", people! ~Edi

[Coyote]

If you like, the US and Russia can play rock-scissors-paper to see who gets to invade them and run the place.

Loser gets the islands, BTW.


How is it they get so much favorable treatment from the government?

[His Divine Shadow]

My personal opinion is the supportive gesture is appreciated. This is all due to the kokkola situation which is a fucking disgrace and this is Ålands way of offering support in what is a clear attempt to disrupt swedish ostrobothnia as a cohesive unit. Kiviniemi has made one attempt after the other to injure Vaasa, first by moving away several important centers such as Ely, about time some voices where raised about this attempted gutting of Vaasa and ostrobothnia.

[His Divine Shadow]

How is it they get so much favorable treatment from the government?

How much do they get? What are the numbers compared to other regions.

[Lagmonster]

So, correct me if I've got this wrong: We're talking about a place where the population is Swedish, but is run by/owned by Finland, and they subsequently extort large amounts of money and/or privileges out of the government in order to recognize their 'distinct society'. And if they don't get it, they want to leave. Is that about right?

Because if that's correct, it sounds strikingly similar to what we've put up with from Quebec over here in Canada.

[Coyote]

How is it they get so much favorable treatment from the government?

How much do they get? What are the numbers compared to other regions.

That thing about not letting stinky foreigners own land, and being exempt from the draft, seem like pretty big deals.

Here in the US, saying that only certain native-born people of a particular region were allowed to own land, and people who move there from "outside" cannot, would raise a stinking shitstorm of lawsuits.

[His Divine Shadow]

So, correct me if I've got this wrong: We're talking about a place where the population is Swedish, but is run by/owned by Finland, and they subsequently extort large amounts of money and/or privileges out of the government in order to recognize their 'distinct society'. And if they don't get it, they want to leave. Is that about right?

Because if that's correct, it sounds strikingly similar to what we've put up with from Quebec over here in Canada.

They don't "exort" jack shit. All regions gets funds in varying degrees as far as I know. Infact you never really hear anything from Åland, they keep to themselves mostly.

[Tiriol]

How is it they get so much favorable treatment from the government?

How much do they get? What are the numbers compared to other regions.

According to this article by Helsingin Sanomat (link also in Finnish), Ålanders get 11,737 euros from the government for each inhabitant of the isles; at the same time they pay 7,083 euros to the government for each inhabitant. There are 27,153 registered inhabitants of the Islands as of 2008, so the number isn't that big - but still a notable drain.

I'll see if I can get any other figures from Tilastokeskus (Statistics Center).

[His Divine Shadow]

That thing about not letting stinky foreigners own land, and being exempt from the draft, seem like pretty big deals.

Here in the US, saying that only certain native-born people of a particular region were allowed to own land, and people who move there from "outside" cannot, would raise a stinking shitstorm of lawsuits.

Åland is a demilitarised zone, its not because of arrogant bad people being baddy bad. They can't have armed forces or military bases, thus is neither their populace trained as soliders. The ability to own land is open to anyone who lives there for longer than 5 years and applies to get it, if you leave Åland for more than 5 years you lose it and have to re-apply (applies to everyone, even people born there).

[Tiriol]

How is it they get so much favorable treatment from the government?

How much do they get? What are the numbers compared to other regions.

That thing about not letting stinky foreigners own land, and being exempt from the draft, seem like pretty big deals.

Here in the US, saying that only certain native-born people of a particular region were allowed to own land, and people who move there from "outside" cannot, would raise a stinking shitstorm of lawsuits.

They are exempted from the military service mostly based on Åland's de-militarized nature, as per the agreements with the League of Nations back in 1921 (which I think the UN has upheld). They do a form of civil service to somewhat offset the exempt, though.

The "foreigners", by the way, include other Finns. The only way to purchase and own land in Åland is to either ba native Ålander or live there for five years, possess adequate Swedish-speaking skills and apply for "kotiseutuoikeus", basically translating into "home area right", in Åland's government. Also, unlike other provinces of Finland, Åland has only one official language - that being Swedish.

[Coyote]

Åland is a demilitarised zone, its not because of arrogant bad people being baddy bad. They can't have armed forces or military bases, thus is neither their populace trained as soliders. The ability to own land is open to anyone who lives there for longer than 5 years and applies to get it, if you leave Åland for more than 5 years you lose it and have to re-apply (applies to everyone, even people born there).

Then it sounds like Finland would do itself a favor to get rid of it; they get paid a stipend more than they pay back in taxes, and there's little point in an islands "strategic position" if you're not allowed to fortify it or station troops there.

[His Divine Shadow]

Yes well in reality you can't just get rid of an area because it's unprofitable and Finland did fight to get Åland for some reason, despite 90%> of the population at the time wanting to orient towards Sweden, hence certain concessions such as the land ownership thing was given to Åland.

Edit: Ofcourse if the Ålanders themselves want to leave... Likely they don't as previously noted this is a sympathy move stemming from the attempted "theft" of Kokkola.

Small communities not being profitable is not new a phenomenon here, but it's part of the whole socialist wealth distribution we do here in scandinavia, in return people in small communities are educated and civilized instead of like in american rural areas.

[Coyote]

Yes well in reality you can't just get rid of an area because it's unprofitable and Finland did fight to get Åland for some reason, despite 90%> of the population at the time wanting to orient towards Sweden, hence certain concessions such as the land ownership thing was given to Åland.

Small communities not being profitable is not new a phenomenon here, but it's part of the whole socialist wealth distribution we do here in scandinavia, in return people in small communities are educated and civilized instead of like in american rural areas.

Okay, I can see that . But then if the US military wanted to build a base in Hicksville, they still could. But in the case of these islands, it sounds like they just get enjoyment out of yanking Finland's chain to get stuff. The talk about "independence" is obvious BS, if they go independent and actually have to work for a living, they will not be able to maintain their standard of life as they have gotten used to it. Call their bluff, I say!

Bear in mind through all this I know nothing whatsoever of Finnish politics beyond what I pick from all you Finns here on the board.

[His Divine Shadow]

That depends on wheter you feel the cause they are doing it for is valid or not. Which frankly I think it is, the attempt to move Kokkola away to Oulu, a city almost twice the distance from Vaasa and that has almost nothing in common with Oulu, well it makes no sense except as the usual Cetner cronyism, corruption and incompetence. Just like they moved important govt. centers from Vaasa to Seinäjoki for no real reasons aside from internal machinations and favors. Thus reducing Vaasas importance and costing people here jobs and also the cost of moving the center to another location.

The last few months have been heated here near Vaasa and people are fucking pissed off about these issues, people practically spit Vanhanens (center party leader and prime minister) name. Åland tossing in it's weight is just a sympathy move as they have no real desire to leave finland.

[Edi]

Fuck the Åland islanders. They have autonomy and a huge number of privileges, so if they really were to be cut off, fuck them and let them starve in the cold.

The issue with Vaasa, Kokkola and Oulu is a separate matter and they are not doing the Swedish speaking minorities in those areas any favors, because outside of that area, the attitude of the Finnish speaking minority is "fuck them if they whine too much and kick them to the curb". A lot of that is no doubt a legacy of everyone being forced to learn Swedish in school no matter where in Finland they are and how fucking absurd the requirement. It breeds a massive amount of resentment.

I'm not saying the Ostrobothnia region should be broken up, because it's in everyone's interest not to splinter the Swedish speaking minorities in the areas where things are cohesive. At the same time, nobody in this country likes the stranglehold the Swedish-speakers have on government due to the bilinguality requirements, which gives them a massive amount of political power and leverage compared to everyone else. And given that AFAIK the minority is shrinking even now, trying too hard to maintain that stranglehold is sooner or later going to cause a backlash.

[His Divine Shadow]

We don't have any stranglehold on this country nor any particular large political leverage that I know of, the RKP has no real power, it just follows the bigger parties in exchange for having seats in the govt. Unless we count everyone who is swedish speaking in govt positions as "in on it" I don't really see what sort of power or leverage we have or what we're doing with it.

I agree though that mandatory swedish breeds resentment, though it's obvious to me there would still be huge amounts of resentment even if that was not there.

[Tiriol]

We don't have any stranglehold on this country nor any particular large political leverage that I know of, the RKP has no real power, it just follows the bigger parties in exchange for having seats in the govt. Unless we count everyone who is swedish speaking in govt positions as "in on it" I don't really see what sort of power or leverage we have or what we're doing with it.

I agree though that mandatory swedish breeds resentment, though it's obvious to me there would still be huge amounts of resentment even if that was not there.

Some historical resentment would always stay, at least until the generations who lived during the last war are dead (some of them have not very fond memories of Swedish-speaking Finns). However, the mandatory Swedish is the main source of resentment, so far as I can tell: because of 5 % of the nation everyone has to learn Swedish. And RKP raises (although it doesn't surprise me, since they at least try to protect Swedish-speaking Finns' rights and the bilingual state of Finland) raises a merry hell whenever someone suggests that maybe it's not the best state of affairs. Time will, most likely, finally overcome them, but they fight to tooth and nail before it. Do not go silently into that night and all that.

Centre Party's cronyism shouldn't be anything new at this point, but this reacton from Åland (even though it is only a minority's reaction) was basically to threaten seccession, despite nothing happening. To most folks it has no connection whatsoever to the reorganizing the muncipalities and provinces; instead it appears to be just some ego building and "bättre folk" syndrome manifesting itself again. Åland gets so many special privileges that it is irksome how little they seem to appreciate it and then it hits the news that there is some talk about seccession if some political maneuvering is done in the mainland (although I shed no tears for the Centre Patry's aborted attempt to fuck things up even more royally than usual). It is basically trolling in real political life and it will make many Finnish-speaking Finns feel even more resentment in the future. This movement which presumably seeks to protect the Swedish-speaking minority's rights, may just have shot itself in the foot.

[His Divine Shadow]

I have to ask, what particular reasons do veterans from the last war have for having negative feelings towards swedish speaking finns? I don't remember the swedish speaking segment doing anything objectionable during the war? My grandfather fought in the war and got injured permanently (bad leg) and almost everyone in my family from that generation knew someone who died.

[Karza]

I have to ask, what particular reasons do veterans from the last war have for having negative feelings towards swedish speaking finns? I don't remember the swedish speaking segment doing anything objectionable during the war? My grandfather fought in the war and got injured permanently (bad leg) and almost everyone in my family from that generation knew someone who died.

There might be some feeling that Sweden didn't help us enough during the wars. Mainly though, I suspect it's a case of the older generations remembering the days when swedish speakers were distinctly "bättre folk", instead of anything directly related to the war.

[His Divine Shadow]

*shrug* maybe that's true in the helsinki and turku cities where the political elite of the time concentrated but here in ostrobothnia we've all been working class and peasants since the dawn of time and none of us ever felt like "bättre folk".

[CJvR]

There might be some feeling that Sweden didn't help us enough during the wars.

That is probably a result of the convenient propaganda that resulted from the Swedish refusal to allow the Franco-British expeditionary corps transit. It was much easier to sell the harsh peace treaty if you could blame Sweden for it. The actual Swedish aid was massive, to the point that Sweden's own survival was threatened.

[Edi]

We don't have any stranglehold on this country nor any particular large political leverage that I know of, the RKP has no real power, it just follows the bigger parties in exchange for having seats in the govt. Unless we count everyone who is swedish speaking in govt positions as "in on it" I don't really see what sort of power or leverage we have or what we're doing with it.

I agree though that mandatory swedish breeds resentment, though it's obvious to me there would still be huge amounts of resentment even if that was not there.

The mandatory Swedish causes the most resentment, and when it lodges in people from such an early age, it will stay with them a long time, perhaps even the rest of their lives. I don't think there would be nearly as much resentment otherwise, since then the Swedish-speakers would just be regular people who speak a foreign language.

The problem as I see it wrt government jobs is that in order to get even a low level government job, you are required to be able to speak Swedish, unless you can for some reason get a waiver for it (there are certain instances). This means that unless you actually can speak Swedish at least passably, forget about getting anywhere even if in nearly all other aspects you are more qualified. At least in the Helsinki area lack of competent Swedish will sink you.

Unlike on the private side where those language skills are also needed, but are not an absolute requirement. Where I work, getting calls from the Vaasa area is a goddamn roulette, because I don't speak Swedish competently. I understand five times as much as I can speak, but giving tech support over the phone just won't happen in Swedish. We have a few people who speak good Swedish and they get a lot of respect because when shit happens and we end up with a caller who doesn't speak Finnish or English but does speak Swedish, it's those Swedish speakers who pull our nuts out of the fire.

But when you're given an instant demerit on a whole pretty damn big category of jobs for not knowing Swedish at the conversational level when the minority is just 6%, yeah, that burns, with or without mandatory Swedish in school.

[Edi]

It occurred to me that our non-Finnish members might benefit from the factoid that when Finland became independent and the Swedish language was given such strong protections in the constitution (second official language, mandatory teaching in school etc), the Swedish speaking minority was some 25% to 30% of the population, but has declined to 6% now, 90 years later. Back then all of the arguments being used for it were quite valid and weighty, these days not so much anymore.

Especially in eastern Finland where in some places people with Russian language skills are in high demand and there is more need for that than Swedish.

[Tiriol]

I have to ask, what particular reasons do veterans from the last war have for having negative feelings towards swedish speaking finns? I don't remember the swedish speaking segment doing anything objectionable during the war? My grandfather fought in the war and got injured permanently (bad leg) and almost everyone in my family from that generation knew someone who died.

Not necessarily the veterans, but there is some bad blood left because the Swedish-speaking populace didn't have and didn't want to let Karelian refugees from the Soviet-occupied areas into their lands. It's actually one of the main pet peeves of the Finnish Society (Suomalaisuuden Liitto) in history and it was also needlessly dragged up in our Parliament about a year ago.

I don't hold any ill will towards Swedish-speaking Finns; quite frankly I'd want to learn better Swedish, but every time I try, it fails miserably. But the Swedish-speaking population's supposed elite - their most vocal politicians etc. - still seem to think that they are "bättre folk" and they are the ones who are most quoted in newspapers and news agencies, not those who just wish to live in peace.

[Simon_Jester]

Question: what does "bättre" mean?

That thing about not letting stinky foreigners own land, and being exempt from the draft, seem like pretty big deals.

Here in the US, saying that only certain native-born people of a particular region were allowed to own land, and people who move there from "outside" cannot, would raise a stinking shitstorm of lawsuits.

What's the legal status of property ownership in Indian reservations? Can people from outside own land in the reservation?