Exactly why are Vulcans supposed to be "incapable"

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-02-13 11:46am

edit: the full title should read Exactly why are Vulcans supposed to be"incapable" of lieing. I don't know why it got cut off because it let it fit the first time. Oh well.

Just curious if anyone knows the reason behind this. I know we've seem them lie numerous times, so is this just a myth that the vulcans perpetrate or merely bad writing?

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-02-13 12:31pm

I never took the "Vulcans don't lie" thing to mean that Vulcans are incabable of lying for some reason.
I always interpreted to mean that Vulcans lie rarely or don't like to lie (cultural inhibitions or something) and will avoid lying if they can. Something a bit like the "muslims don't drink alcohol" claim is sort of true, muslims shouldn't drink alcohol, but many do. Vulcans shouldn't lie, but many do.

Oh, and since the Vulcans and Romulans are in the end of the species and the Romulans sure don't have a problem with lying, there can't really be any fundamental biological inhibition that would stop the Vulcans from lying. I'm betting that it is just cultural, like the way they suppres their emotions.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-13 12:44pm

The notion springs from the TNG episode "Data's Day", in which Data dismisses his suspicions of the Vulcan ambassador T'Pel "since Vulcan's do not lie". This was not an idle comment, he decided whether or not to report her inquiries into the ship's combat capabilities based on his understanding of Vulcan behavior.

In the episode, of course, it turned out that T'Pel was actually a Romulan spy, but the issue at question is why does Data have such an incorrect view of Vulcan behavior? The Vulcans have an intelligence service, so presumably their undercover operatives are obliged to lie from time to time. Similarly, Tuvok infiltrated Chakotay's Maquis group before the Dominion War broke out, so he was presumably obliged to lie to Chakotay at some point. And of course we've seen how much lying the Vulcans of the Enterprise time period do.

The issue is important because it demonstrates both that Data is not infallible and that "canon statements" are not necessarily truths.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-02-13 12:54pm

What excatly did Data say?
Just asking cuz going from "since Vulcans don't lie" to "Vulcans absolutely canNOT lie" is a bit strange.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-13 01:01pm

From Mike's Canon Database

TNG Season 4, Ep# 85: "Data's Day"

DATA VO: Commander Maddox, I have often wished for the sense that humans call intuition or instinct. Since Vulcans do not lie, I must accept the Ambassador's explanation... but I still wish I could have a... gut feeling to back up this conclusion.

Note that Data made an important decision based on his assumptions about T'Pel and Vulcans.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-13 01:12pm

Why can't people just accept the fact that Data is an idiot and hardly infalliable?

Of course many fans seem to think that all Sci-fi characters are infalliable, so this comes as no surprise.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-02-13 01:19pm

Ted C wrote:The notion springs from the TNG episode "Data's Day", in which Data dismisses his suspicions of the Vulcan ambassador T'Pel "since Vulcan's do not lie". This was not an idle comment, he decided whether or not to report her inquiries into the ship's combat capabilities based on his understanding of Vulcan behavior.

In the episode, of course, it turned out that T'Pel was actually a Romulan spy, but the issue at question is why does Data have such an incorrect view of Vulcan behavior? The Vulcans have an intelligence service, so presumably their undercover operatives are obliged to lie from time to time in order. Similarly, Tuvok infiltrated Chakotay's Maquis group before the Dominion War broke out, so he was presumably obliged to lie to Chakotay at some point. And of course we've seen how much lying the Vulcans of the Enterprise time period do.

The issue is important because it demonstrates both that Data is not infallible and that "canon statements" are not necessarily truths.

I'm gonna go into some semantics here so please bear with me.

According to the post above, Data said, "...do not lie." NOT "...can't lie."

I think there's a fairly significant difference there.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-13 01:25pm

Shinova wrote:I'm gonna go into some semantics here so please bear with me.

According to the post above, Data said, "...do not lie." NOT "...can't lie."

I think there's a fairly significant difference there.

Good point. Its amazing how people try and put in words that aren't there in the first place.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-13 01:35pm

True. Data said "Vulcans do not lie", not "Vulcans can not lie".

Nonetheless, he assumed that anything T'Pel told him would be the truth, based solely upon his belief that she was Vulcan, even though she had behaved very suspiciously.

If we were to assume that "canon statements" from characters are always accurate, we would have to believe anything a Vulcan character said was the truth, because "Vulcans do not lie".

Is some part of this disproof of the inerrancy of "canon statements" difficult to understand? That's all I ever meant to do with this subject.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » 2003-02-13 06:25pm

Actually, if you look back at ST4, there's the scene when Kirk and Spock are walking by the Golden Gate Bridge. Kirk is telling Spock not be so honest, and Spock replies "I cannot tell a lie". From the emphasis that Spock placed on the "cannot", I was lead to believe that it was some type of social inhibition to lying.

BTW, this is post 150. Hurray for me!!

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-13 06:48pm

I find the statement that Vulcans cannot lie to be their greatest dishonesty.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-02-13 11:13pm

We also have Spocks quote from Star Trek 5 where he tells the Klingons that Kirk is on the planet below. The Klingon accuses him of lieing, and he promptly responds "I am a Vulcan, I am incapable of lieing".

The real question is whether this is supposed to be pysiological, or whether it is a perceived cultural trait.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-13 11:16pm

Master of Ossus wrote:I find the statement that Vulcans cannot lie to be their greatest dishonesty.

You know, if they were lying every time they ever said that, it would make sense when they lie at other times.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-14 12:27am

Admiral_K wrote:We also have Spocks quote from Star Trek 5 where he tells the Klingons that Kirk is on the planet below. The Klingon accuses him of lieing, and he promptly responds "I am a Vulcan, I am incapable of lieing".

Which is itself only a half truth.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-14 12:35am

Sorry...it must be said after some of this....
Truth is like understanding...and...

Understanding is a three edged sword....

Couldnt resist any longer.

If someone says they cannot lie, it is a meaningless statment because if its true its pointless....and if it isnt they can still say it anyway.....

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-14 01:15am

The phrase "Vulcans do not lie" is much like the phrase "I am not a crook" or "The cheque is in the mail." Anyone who takes it as proof of anything is an idiot.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-14 03:21am

Darth Wong wrote:The phrase "Vulcans do not lie" is much like the phrase "I am not a crook" or "The cheque is in the mail." Anyone who takes it as proof of anything is an idiot.

Yeah. I never took that phrase at face value, even though it had been repeated on several occasions in the movies. If Vulcans did not lie, then having them in Star Fleet or even apart of the Federation would be pointless, especially in a war. If they get captured "they won't lie"... but of course, they don't really follow that phrase at face value like you said Mike.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-02-14 03:44am

I think Vulcans don't lie straight up, but don't tell the whole truth either.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-14 11:36am

In Voyager, Tuvok went undercover as a Maquis. I'm sure at some time, he had to actually, hide his true identity. So, yes, Vulcans can and will flat out lie.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-02-14 11:40am

Shinova wrote:I think Vulcans don't lie straight up, but don't tell the whole truth either.

The best lie is half the truth.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-14 12:16pm

I think Vulcan behavior is very simple... they will lie if they think it's the logical thing to do at the time.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-14 12:16pm

Shinova wrote:I think Vulcans don't lie straight up, but don't tell the whole truth either.

VALERIS: "I don't remember."

SPOCK: "A lie"?

VALERIS: "A choice."

Vulcans do lie if it suits them.

Let's not get mired in semantic bullshit. The difference between lying and concealing the truth is bullshit. And the difference between "Vulcans can not lie" and "Vulcans do not lie" is also bullshit, since either statement predicts that Vulcans will NEVER lie if taken literally, and we know that to be false (not to mention idiotic; what kind of genetic structure could possibly prevent a sentient being from deliberately telling an untruth?)