Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by Teebs »

stormthebeaches wrote:It would be nice if someone would explain how Obama pissed off Gordon Brown and the Queen. Seriously, I haven't heard about that. What did he do? As for Poland. The majority of the Polish people don't want the missile shield so I am unsure how exactly Obama pissed off Poland.
Gordon gave him a nice present,he gave the Browns some crappy DVDs that don't work in the UK. Etiquette failure rather than anything serious.

The Queen was IIRC either getting an ipod from him or being hugged by Michelle Obama. While the Brown thing did get some grumbly news coverage here, I don't think anyone felt insulted/aggrieved over the Queen.
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Spyder wrote:Obama bows to Japanese Emperor, nationalist rage ensues.
Obama uses incorrect technique, nerd rage ensues.
he also forgot to appoint Samuel L. Jackson to security for Air Force 1, after all we wouldn't want the nerds to think that we could have snakes on that plane....
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by ArmorPierce »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: I'm talking about in terms of international etiquette between people of rank, not Japanese etiquette. Note that Putin doesn't show one inch. It was okay when Nixon bowed in the proper manner and it was reciprocated, even if it wasn't what we'd consider truly appropriate etiquette between leaders.
Where is this list of etiquiette rules which state that a leader should not bow to a leader from Japan because that is a sign of weakness that you are quoting from?
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Maybe the general understanding that in Japanese culture the depth of bow and who bows first does actually carry significance.

Obama basically bowed as if the emporer was far more important and it was a greater honor for the President of the United States to meet the Emporer of Japan than vice versa.

It was a gaff. Not a world changing event, but it is a negative in his column.
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by Kane Starkiller »

Funny, with all the Japanese talk about "redefining" the relationship with US and the pressure from Japanese population for US to leave the base in Okinawa this looks more like a carefully calculated move to me than any kind of gaffe.
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by TimothyC »

stormthebeaches wrote:It would be nice if someone would explain how Obama pissed off Gordon Brown and the Queen. Seriously, I haven't heard about that. What did he do? As for Poland. The majority of the Polish people don't want the missile shield so I am unsure how exactly Obama pissed off Poland.
I never said he pissed them off, I said he insulted them. The thing with Queen Elizabeth II was when Mrs. Obama put her hand on the queen's back, which is something, as I understand it, that you simply don't do. Other people have mentioned what he did with respect to the UK PM, and the Polish decision being made when it was.
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by Tanasinn »

The "touching the Queen" incident was something that no one but our conservative scum and the UK's sensationalist rags gave a flying fuck about, as I recall. The earlier gift exchange was a much more embarassing gaffe, and a legitimate one compared to the non-starters like this bow.
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by stormthebeaches »

As someone who actually lives in the UK I can say that stuff about Obama offending the queen by touching her is a load of crap. Very few news papers reported it and no one genuinely cares about it at all. I didn't even hear about it until now and I read two different papers every day.
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by Broomstick »

My understanding was that the Queen initiated the personal contact, thus, Mrs. Obama was reciprocating. If that is the case, what she supposed to do, step back away from the Queen? Oh, yeah, that would have been polite - not!

Frankly, it seems that the unwashed trailer trash and chavs are making more of this than the actual people involved in these "gaffs" are.
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by Ghost Rider »

Broomstick wrote:Frankly, it seems that the unwashed trailer trash and chavs are making more of this than the actual people involved in these "gaffs" are.
Which could be said of this entire event.

After seeing the picture, it is odd and looks awkward. But really, people are making a mountain out of molehill and suffering from some significant cherry picking.
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by Prannon »

ArmorPierce wrote:Where is this list of etiquiette rules which state that a leader should not bow to a leader from Japan because that is a sign of weakness that you are quoting from?
There is none, but generally speaking it's taken for granted that diplomatic contact between nations is very westernized. That means western style business suits, shaking hands, big smiles, and the like. And that's why you didn't see anyone else bowing to the emperor. Everyone was shaking hands just like people in the states do.

How do I know this? I participated in several model UN simulations where dressing up in anything other than western business suits was an absolute no-no. Their reason was that they didn't accept that in the actual UN.
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by The Spartan »

Prannon wrote:How do I know this? I participated in several model UN simulations where dressing up in anything other than western business suits was an absolute no-no. Their reason was that they didn't accept that in the actual UN.
But did you ever simulate being in a particular home country? Obama was in Japan when he did this, not at the UN.
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by TheKwas »

Prannon wrote:
ArmorPierce wrote:Where is this list of etiquiette rules which state that a leader should not bow to a leader from Japan because that is a sign of weakness that you are quoting from?
There is none, but generally speaking it's taken for granted that diplomatic contact between nations is very westernized. That means western style business suits, shaking hands, big smiles, and the like.
I don't know of a single western woman that, even (or especially?) in a business context, dresses like this woman:
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

That isn't it. It's that since the time of Hammurabi, bowing has been recognized as a part of rituals of obesience that symbolically showed the subservience of one monarch to another, one country to another in a status of vassalage. State department protocol mandates a small, polite bow from the waist with the head held erect for mere ambassadors when dealing with foreign monarchs, whereas Obama's gesture was as deep a bow and gesture of obesience as can be made without literally kowtowing.
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by Prannon »

The Spartan wrote:But did you ever simulate being in a particular home country? Obama was in Japan when he did this, not at the UN.
Fair point, but I think it still stands that diplomacy is largely westernized in the world. And no, we didn't simulate being in one particular home country.
TheKwas wrote: I don't know of a single western woman that, even (or especially?) in a business context, dresses like this woman
Also a fair point. Going with my pedestrian sense, I don't think that she is under the same expectations that the actual emperor is. Since he's the actual, symbolic head of state to other countries, I think he'd be expected to act in a more western manner in diplomatic meetings.

The real point I was trying to make is that there isn't a codebook for diplomatic proceedings, only that it is generally westernized. That won't apply to everyone or everything though, as others have made a point of saying.
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:That isn't it. It's that since the time of Hammurabi, bowing has been recognized as a part of rituals of obesience that symbolically showed the subservience of one monarch to another, one country to another in a status of vassalage. State department protocol mandates a small, polite bow from the waist with the head held erect for mere ambassadors when dealing with foreign monarchs, whereas Obama's gesture was as deep a bow and gesture of obesience as can be made without literally kowtowing.
It's not like Obama actually signed any sort of legal document that makes the US a vassal state of Japan, though. At worst this is a faux pas of protocol, akin to Nixon giving the peace symbol in places where that's the equivilent of giving people the finger. Hell, it's not even like this removes the US from a position of power. So, why is this such an enormous deal?
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by General Zod »

Akhlut wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:That isn't it. It's that since the time of Hammurabi, bowing has been recognized as a part of rituals of obesience that symbolically showed the subservience of one monarch to another, one country to another in a status of vassalage. State department protocol mandates a small, polite bow from the waist with the head held erect for mere ambassadors when dealing with foreign monarchs, whereas Obama's gesture was as deep a bow and gesture of obesience as can be made without literally kowtowing.
It's not like Obama actually signed any sort of legal document that makes the US a vassal state of Japan, though. At worst this is a faux pas of protocol, akin to Nixon giving the peace symbol in places where that's the equivilent of giving people the finger. Hell, it's not even like this removes the US from a position of power. So, why is this such an enormous deal?
It's an enormous deal because Obama did it. So Republitards need to hyperventilate and inflate it out of proportion as much as they can whether or not there's any merit to the criticism.
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

With as much hypervenhillating as they have been doing since January, I wonder how they haven't passed out from lack of O2, I guess neo-cons are zombies, since all simblice of brain activity has ceased...

does this mean we should use corn meal and salt (Voodoo) or shoot them in the head (Zombie survival guide)?
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by Eleas »

General Zod wrote: It's an enormous deal because Obama did it. So Republitards need to hyperventilate and inflate it out of proportion as much as they can whether or not there's any merit to the criticism.
The fact of the matter is that Obama has no need to assert dominance (that is all but useless on today's international arena, as you won't find anyone questioning USA's eagerness to kill) while he frankly has everything to win by showing himself capable of being un-American - that is, reaching out as an equal.

"But that doesn't excuse that his technique for bowing was poor, or mitigate the shame of choosing the wrong gift!" you might say. And of course, you'd technically be making a valid observation. We can look at all these things in isolation, or we can look at them as a whole, and see what the total package is. Or we can do what the conservatards would have us do, and pretend the worst incidents must represent said package.

From the POV of an outsider, this constant deluge of right-wing rhetoric and its effect is amazing and disquieting to watch. By sheer repetition it's begun to sway even ostensibly moderate people, convinced them to assign inflated and sometimes outright misrepresented incidents an importance that simply can't be justified. And the smarter they are, the more they concoct clever rationalisations around it, because that's less wearying than keeping up a constant 24-h guard against the message.

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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Eleas wrote:capable of being un-American - that is, reaching out as an equal.
How does acting in a sub-servient manor suddenly make you an equal. Bowing just as much as your counterpart is equal, bending over at the waist to lick the floor is a far cry from an equal bow.

The issue is a relatively minor one, you are correct in that, but bowing like he did was not "as an equal" in bowing custom he was one step away from kow-towing the emporer and whoever taught him bowing etiquitte should be replaced.
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Re: Obama shows foreign leader respect, pisses off idiot critics

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

I was going to post this in the "TERRIBLE CARTOONS" thread, but I figured it would get the proper attention here...
Basically a Round upo of some of the more mind numbeing stupid cartoons concerning this incident.
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Addendum..
This last one I love the most, because it is so totally over the top
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