SDN Diplomacy #2: Comments Thread

[Thirdfain]

I'd prefer to be contacted by SDN PM's; my email is Thirdfain@gmail.com for those who prefer an alternate mode of contact.

[JonB]

I, Emile Loubet, President of the Third Republic of France, seeks to maintian France as a Great Nation in this dawning century, expanding our art and culture to all the peoples of the world!

((The things you learn in history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emile_Loubet ))

[Duckie]

The Main thread is online. Please keep comments in this thread to make the other one clean and easy for players to navigate.

Also, please PM your orders on time. There is no honour in hitting submit at the last second, if you are done with speaking to other players please submit early to make sure they arrive on time.

If you have submitted orders and wish to change them due to some development, please send another PM with the new orders, marking explicitly that these override the previous ones.

If you grow unable to play due to real life concerns, and you should, I note, attempt to avoid this, then please post here in advance so that a replacement player may be obtained with all haste.

So, let the Great Game begin.

[Duckie]

Someone has contacted me asking a question about Convoys. In the interest of fairness, I will post answers to all rule questions, in edited format if necessary to preserve anonymity. Please continue to ask rule questions by PM, this is merely for reference.

I am asked "Fleets can move only 1 space per turn, so if I want to move an army across several water spaces, it will take several turns, right? What happens if the convoy is cut in mid-transit?"

This question is based upon an incorrect understanding of convoy rules, the most complex part of diplomacy, so it's important I publicly attempt to clear it up.

Imagine a Convoy as a Bridge.

Example 1:

Text version of Orders:
Army Rome to Tunisia.
Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea Convoys Army Rome to Tunisia.

Now, normally order 1 would be invalid. After all, not only is it a 2 space move in a single turn, it's crossing water, which armies can't do. However, the convoy order changes this. Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea is an enabler- it creates a metaphorical bridge across the Tyrrhenian Sea which is open only for Army Rome to Tunisia. A Convoy must have a valid start and end point to work, and only the unit making the exact same move specified can make the move. At no point does the army actually stop and wait in the Tyrrhenian Sea, it literally moves from Rome to Tunisia.

Now, what if the player (the power to use was determined randomly by die roll, and the targets are just the most logical ones nearby for the examples, so do not think too hard about this choice) wanted to convoy the army to greece? (also I have given italy a second fleet for this example, since I don't feel like using Britain for example 2).

Example 2:

Text version of Orders (dotted line represents actual movement order for multi-stage convoys, as you might guess. I have made a bent arrow to show the convoys better.)
Army Rome to Greece
Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea Convoy Army Rome to Greece
Fleet Ionian Sea Convoy Army Rome to Greece

Notice- both fleets have the same order. The Army is told to make a 3 square move over 2 water spaces and into a land space in a single turn. Normally it could not do this, but both fleets are convoying and thus acting as bridges. Convoys must have a valid target that is an end space and a valid sampling place. DO NOT order this.

Army Rome to Greece
Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea Convoy Army Rome to Ionian Sea
Fleet Ionian Sea Convoy Army Rome to Greece

That is incorrect. Because the orders do not line up, the army cannot move to Greece. Now, there are logical reasons to want to intentionally foul up a convoy, but those are diplomatic. I am merely concerned with moving about the board.

Note in both of these examples: At no time does a fleet pick up an army and move around with it. It merely acts as a high-speed bridge for a single, identified unit to walk across. If you wish to move an army across multiple spaces of water, you must use multiple fleets convoying in the same turn..

As such, if a convoy is cut, the (metaphorical, remember) bridge merely fails to form, and the movement fails. The Army does not make it halfway across and stop, or drown, or other strange results.

[Duckie]

Ghetto Edit:

Remember, although this doesn't come up much, you can order two different convoys of the same unit. The convoying does not affect the unit's movement (so that you cannot use convoying to foul with an enemy's units against his will), the army itself must actually make the move over the bridge the fleet opens for it to matter. Here is an example of another use for convoying.


Orders: (Dotted Lines represent both halves of the quantum convoy example here).
Army Naples to Tunisia
Fleet Ionian Sea Convoy Army Naples to Tunisia
Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea Convoy Army Naples to Tunisia

Now, this is a 1 space move, but there are 2 fleets participating. Why? This manoeuvre is useful if both fleets are in jeopardy of being dislodged at the same time, but you are betting both will not be. Let me explain exactly why according to the rules it works.

Consider if Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea is attacked by some other power (France, let us say) and dislodged. If it were the only convoying fleet, Naples would not get to Tunisia. And Ionian Sea is presumably under the same sort of threat if the player is using this. Yet, redundant orders like that for convoys can occasionally give you a safety margin. If only one power dislodges your fleets in that turn, the Army can use whichever path- Notice the Army does not specify which path it is moving by.*

*Interested parties will note that an army does not specify whether it is walking or convoying, which could cause a foreign fleet off the coast of an army which is ordered to do so to do a very strange thing: Convoy said army to the same square it was intending to walk to, even if the power didn't expect to be convoyed by the fleet. There is no situation known to me where convoying vs walking makes a difference in terms of outcome (if the fleet is cut, the army still walks there, logically), save a single one:

If two armies move to eachother's spaces, and a fleet convoys them, they don't interact with eachother in any way (bouncing, or, if they're foreign armies and one has more support, dislodging the less-supported one), but rather
exchange spaces. Here is an example which actually uses that.


Orders:
France:
Army Belgium to Holland
Army Holland Supports Army Belgium to Holland
Germany:
Army Holland to Belgium
Britain:
Convoy Army Holland to Belgium

Results:

Army Belgium to Holland is successful, but so is Army Holland to Belgium.

Had britain not issued a convoy order, the ultimate result would have been

"Army Belgium to Holland is successful, German Army Holland must retreat (to Kiel, since Ruhr is occupied and belgium is where it was attacked from) or disband."

Naturally, such a situation would have to be highly planned, but it is the only situation in which I can think of where the ability of armies to switch places via convoy is pertinent.

This situation is very marginal but is possible. I leave it to the player to privately come up with their own uses for place-swapping an army via convoy with or without consent/knowledge of the power with the army, although note that situations where the foreign power does not know you will place-swap them are few and far between (any examples I can think of are very contrived), since they have to order a move to that square anyway.

[JonB]

I cna see why Convoys are a headache. But the bridge analogy is a fairly good one.

[Duckie]

Someone has asked: "If an army is dislodged, can it retreat over a fleet if the fleet did a convoy that turn? Can it retreat over a fleet in any situation?"

Answer: No, it must retreat to an adjacent land province or disband. Only units which have been dislodged are allowed to move in a retreat phase, incidentally, and the only valid moves are Disband or Move* (no supports or convoying, hold is replaced by 'die'). Since "Disband" is the equivalent of Hold, and there's no such thing as supports, bounces cause units to disband, so be careful with retreats.

Consider the Retreat Phase less of an actual phase of the game compared to Spring and Fall, and rather just an adjunct of them where the problem of 2 pieces inhabiting the same space caused by attacks is fixed. The only reason why it gets its own day and maps and stuff is because to retreat you kind of have to see what already happened and who dislodged you and where.

*Additionally, the move can only take place to a space in which no bounce has happened (no battlefields), to an empty space (no occupied squares), and not to the space in which the enemy unit just came from (no silliness).

[Duckie]

Yet another question! I am somewhat glad people are eager to learn, which has good implications for the game actually functioning despite a host of new players, but also somewhat concerned. Still, I think within the first few turns things will sort themselves out. Nobody ever has to do complex convoy shit anyhow.

Someone asks. "So can a piece that retreats end up retreating into enemy territory?"

Yes indeed it can, someone. This piece- the one who gets behind the general battle line of the enemy- is called a Back-Rank Marauder in diplomacy jargon. They're quite annoying since you have to chase them around with 2 armies (one for support to dislodge it when it stops on one of your SCs for the fall to irritate you) to pin them down in a corner or otherwise hedge them in with bounces and defeat them, or else they keep seizing supply centers in your rear. Ideally a player doesn't usually let that sort of lateral retreat happen by using the terrain of the map's geometry and the positioning of pieces and movements to their advantage, but sometimes it's unavoidable.

[Spoonist]

If anyone needs a temp/spare you can PM me.

[Bluewolf]

I am quitting this game due to time issues. Sorry to say. I hope you guys have fun and I will join next round if we do more than one.

[Duckie]

Great Britain is open for registration. 17 hours remain until spring orders are due- anyone who has not submitted yet should finalise their plans and plots and give them to me post-haste.

Anyone willing to fill in for Great Britain should PM. You probably will not have time to conduct diplomacy for Spring 1901, but possibly even a blind movement is better than all units holding. Additionally, there is ample time to get in the game before Fall 1901.

[Thirdfain]

Hah, so very typical of web diplomacy!

As long as someone grabs the slot quickly, 17 hours should be plenty for a new player to feel out the waters and all...

[Duckie]

Spring 1901 posted.

As there are no retreats, I have skipped the retreat phase. As such, in 3 days your fall orders are due. You may resume plotting and paranoia immediately (I haven't and won't order you to stop, for one. ).

Public Gloating should be kept in this thread for people crowing about moves or making public pronouncements for various reasons.

[Spoonist]

Regarding England's spring move. Raise of hands now. How many would be OK with a time warp letting england do the standard orders?
F Edi - Nrg
F Lon - Nth
A Lvp - Edi
Or if you don't like that how many would be OK with the fleets moving to random seas? Duckie can roll the dice.
Just state [OK][Random][No]

I know that "officially" the orders are already in etc, but the new player would be disadvantaged not only in coming late to the diplomatic side, but also missing a critical build 01. Without the fleets at sea england will be crippled for the rest of the game and the balance of the board will not be skewed. Plus there will be lots of moves for russia/france/germany that is completely safe which normally would not be.

[Thirdfain]

I am OK with this, for no other reason that otherwise, game-balance will be off.

[Duckie]

I am not going to respond to any statements about such things until this issue is resolved by all players in the way they see fit as I feel it would potentially be violating my neutrality as a Judge, which I am attempting to be careful to keep. Strict rule interpretation and ethics states that I would not do such a thing on my own typically, but if it is the will of the players in accordance with their desire to enjoy the game then naturally why should one not?

However, I will say that I recommend the community of european countries resolve this question before Wednesday at 11:59:59 GMT, or else the quantum status of Britain will become extremely unusual.

In either case, the chaos after the motion of no confidence is over. Welcome Spoonist as the newest Prime Minister of Great Britain and Ireland. Although Ireland is very odd, it only vaguely exists as an unplayable area in the map.

I will PM a moderator to update the contact info post in the main thread (he wishes to be contacted by PM, for the record) once the Britain issue is resolved by the rest of Europe.

[Eris]

I would have no problem with that move set. I'm in agreement that the UK simply missing S01 moves would seriously unbalance the rest of the game.

That's the most common opener for Britain anyhow, so I don't feel it's unduly advantaged by seeing all of our moves before submitting them.

[Narkis]

I'm ambivalent. On one hand, it is true that Britain will be severely weakened with no Spring moves, and the game unbalanced as a result. But on the other hand Spoonist is submitting orders after the deadline has passed. These may be the most popular orders for Britain, the orders Spoonist would have submitted if he had control of Britain from the start. But he didn't. He is submitting them after the deadline. And that's too much of an advantage. If I drop from the game tomorrow, will my successor be allowed to place his orders on Thursday? If someone drops on 1910? And if they will not be, why should we make such a great exception to the rule now?

That's why I'm not OK with the submitted orders. I will vote for random, as a compromise. And that's only because it's the very first turn of the game. In any other case my vote would have been a very sound no.

[loomer]

I have no strong feelings on this matter, so let him make the moves.

[JonB]

Hrm, I can agree to the retconing of the 'standard' moves put forth by Spoonist. (Welcome to the party!).

However, only if he can justify these as the 'standard' moves either here or by PM. Otherwise, all I can really see is a person making their orders after everyone else has moved.

[Narkis]

Ah, yes. JonB makes a valid point. If Spoonist can justify these as the standard orders, I will withdraw my objection.

[Duckie]

I'll make a partial argument for him since he may or may not have the sources of data I have:

The Northern Opening/Churchhill Opening is the most common british opening, occurring in 44.1% of postal games from approximately 1976 to 1990 (I believe, I would have to check the years. The statistics are right.)

If we include Northern Opening Yorkshire Variant, which is essentially the equivalent save the army moves to Yorkshire, then the two functionally equivalent in all ways versions of the Northern Opening happen in 73.6% of British first turns.

Whether a 73.6% chance of a Northern Opening is makes something a standard I will not give my opinions, since this is for the players to resolve.

[JonB]

What is your source for those statistics?

[Duckie]

What is your source for those statistics?

Defuncter version of the Library of Diplomacy Openings, data collated and assembled by M. Hand

I have discounted the Wales opening for the northern opening, because it would not be mechanically the same as the listed orders (wales would not be adjacent to at least one fleet for a convoy somewhere). Yorkshire is at least very close to Edinburgh in terms of how the opening plays.

Edit- More data for interested parties: from 1969 to "the early nineties" UK Postal Diplomacy Games, Stephen Agar found that in 1855 games, 39.89% of the openings for Britain were Northern Yorkshire, and 22.47% were Northern Edinburgh, a total of 62.36% of the openings, for a more complete figure.

[JonB]

An interesting resource. I'll have to investigate it more later.