SGU 109: "Life" (Spoilers)

[Zac Naloen]

The problem is not with body switching. The problem is with how the bizzare decision to show Telford transform into Young instead of Telford acting like Young now that he has been possesed. Do they think audiences are so stupid they dont understand the concept of Youngs mind now controlling Telfords body ?

It's not a bizarre decision when you consider that the sequences are filmed from the possessing characters' point of view.

And that when the point of view switches away from the possessing character you do see the image of the person who owns the body. It's been done several times.

[Sarevok]

I dont get this point of view excuse. Its unnatural and jarring. Whats the harm in showing Telford possed by Young instead of teleporting in Young in his place ?

[tezunegari]

I dont get this point of view excuse. Its unnatural and jarring. Whats the harm in showing Telford possed by Young instead of teleporting in Young in his place ?

I think that they do this to simplify acting and identifying the character by the audience.
It could be quite confusing for some people if they had to identify Young in Telford by his acting alone.

If they had Lou Diamond Phillips (Telford) doing the acting for Louis Ferreira's (Young) Earth scenes he would have to act like Ferreira does - which I imagine to be quite difficult.

Personally I would dislike to have my own acting restricted by another actor.

And it gives us nice wtf-scenes (Telfords face during the glitch when Young was screwing his wife ).

They should mention rules regarding the use of host bodies in-universe though or at least show some consequences - like allergies (or having a PE fanatic working out in Eli's body)

[Bounty]

I dont get this point of view excuse.

It's not an excuse, it's a conscious stylistic choice by the producers. The narrative follows the Destiny's characters, so even when they are inhabiting other people, it shows them as they see themselves. Meanwhile, people who are not the Destiny crew see them as their host bodies. Doing things the other way around would just be confusing.

[CaptJodan]

Mallozzi for one is aware of it, and just says Destiny is older than Atlantis. However, the actual show implies that it's younger.

So...then...writers intent is that Destiny is older, and we can probably expect at some point for some line somewhere to try and retcon some of the missteps in the series so far. So why are you arguing that this chair is from the same era as Atlantis' chair?

There is no disease they could pick up that can't be cured by fifteen seconds with Vala Mal Doran. Which really makes it kinda dickish that Eli's mum still has HIV.

That's a suspect statement (the former, not the latter). Cameron's dying friend was in the special hospital that seemed implied to use techniques of medicine that relied on some alien influences, and they couldn't cure him. Cameron got cleared to bring the memory machine in so his friend could see what Cameron's been doing, but didn't even try to bring in Vala with the healing device. Clearly there are things (rather mundane things too) that it cannot cure.

But yes, if they do have a cure, they are being rather dickish, not just to his mom, but from withholding it from the world. The same could be said for naquada generators and a whole host of other technologies, though.

[tezunegari]

Cameron's dying friend was in the special hospital that seemed implied to use techniques of medicine that relied on some alien influences, and they couldn't cure him. Cameron got cleared to bring the memory machine in so his friend could see what Cameron's been doing, but didn't even try to bring in Vala with the healing device. Clearly there are things (rather mundane things too) that it cannot cure.

Ferguson, diagnosed with a fatal brain aneurysm caused by shrapnel, was wounded four years prior, saving Mitchell's life.

Have we ever seen the Goa'uld healing device healing infections? So far I only remember physical injury being healed. (Carter healing Chronos after being fatally wounded by Nirrti )

It might not be working on infections as Goa'uld are quite good at healing those (O'Neill being infected with the Antarctica plague was said to be an easy case by the Tok'ra envoy).

[Revy]

Hell, whatever happened to the trick of cloning symbiotes? They could churn them out in batches and engineer them to die with the prick of a needle. A little more refining and I bet they could make the clones without the genetic evil memory, but even if they couldn't all they need to do is strap the person down, stick the clone symbiote in them, wait for it to cure the host, and then inject it with the kill switch.

Heck, why didn't Earth give the Tok'ra that cloning tech to help them clone themselves and replenish their numbers?

And as far as the stones go, they may not be able to transfer the minds of the Destiny crew permenantly into a clone body, but if they did make clones then perhaps they could hook the clones up to the stones on the Earth side, so that the Destiny crew can use copies of their own bodies to cavort around with, eliminating akwardness from appearing to their loved ones as somebody else, and dealing with the immoral issue of abusing someone elses body. Granted some might find that a cruel use of clones, but my understanding is that clones are essentially blank slates unless they are symbiotes with genetic memory.

Also, do you think the stones would work on the Harlan robots? If so then they could ask him to make copies of the Destiny crew and have them body jump into a robot version of themselves (with limited battery power forcing them not to wonder around on Earth causing trouble). Of course that'll never happen, but it's a thought anyway. Really, I don't think we're going to see too much of past SG tech showing up in this series.

Edit -

Have we ever seen the Goa'uld healing device healing infections? So far I only remember physical injury being healed. (Carter healing Chronos after being fatally wounded by Nirrti )

Vala was able to temporarily cure people of the Prior plague.

[NecronLord]

Hell, whatever happened to the trick of cloning symbiotes? They could churn them out in batches and engineer them to die with the prick of a needle. A little more refining and I bet they could make the clones without the genetic evil memory, but even if they couldn't all they need to do is strap the person down, stick the clone symbiote in them, wait for it to cure the host, and then inject it with the kill switch.

Rather immoral... Egeria can spawn them blank, Earth can't.

Heck, why didn't Earth give the Tok'ra that cloning tech to help them clone themselves and replenish their numbers?

Who says they didn't? The Tok'ra have enough trouble finding hosts.

Also, do you think the stones would work on the Harlan robots? If so then they could ask him to make copies of the Destiny crew and have them body jump into a robot version of themselves (with limited battery power forcing them not to wonder around on Earth causing trouble). Of course that'll never happen, but it's a thought anyway. Really, I don't think we're going to see too much of past SG tech showing up in this series.

He would surely need the originals on hand.

Edit -

Have we ever seen the Goa'uld healing device healing infections? So far I only remember physical injury being healed. (Carter healing Chronos after being fatally wounded by Nirrti )

Vala was able to temporarily cure people of the Prior plague.

It was said that they were getting reinfected from a common source and that it was somehow building up resistance. These wouldn't be a problem with HIV.

[NecronLord]

So...then...writers intent is that Destiny is older, and we can probably expect at some point for some line somewhere to try and retcon some of the missteps in the series so far. So why are you arguing that this chair is from the same era as Atlantis' chair?

Writer's intent also says that it's Great Plague era. Where the chairs were a fully developed technology present in multiple places (Taeonas was abandoned because its star was expanding, rather than due to the plague, which would seem to put it prior to the plague).

There is no disease they could pick up that can't be cured by fifteen seconds with Vala Mal Doran. Which really makes it kinda dickish that Eli's mum still has HIV.

That's a suspect statement (the former, not the latter). Cameron's dying friend was in the special hospital that seemed implied to use techniques of medicine that relied on some alien influences, and they couldn't cure him. Cameron got cleared to bring the memory machine in so his friend could see what Cameron's been doing, but didn't even try to bring in Vala with the healing device. Clearly there are things (rather mundane things too) that it cannot cure.

See previous post. If it can mechanically select and purge one virus (it can) it can do it to any virus unless there's some limit to particle resolution (HIV is one viral cause of Meningitis, so it's likely its of similar size to the prior plague anyway). It can't, however, perform major surgery, such as pulling shrapnel out of someone's brain.

We also saw Nirrti use it and another device to purge a retrovirus and restore Cassandra's DNA to normal in 'Rite of Passage' though of course, they may not know how to use the other device, and I very much doubt Vala is as skilled as Nirrti.

But yes, if they do have a cure, they are being rather dickish, not just to his mom, but from withholding it from the world. The same could be said for naquada generators and a whole host of other technologies, though.

Naquadah generators specifically are in civillian use. McKay was sent to help set up civillian Naquadah generators for Russia.

Mind you, it is true, they should be rolling out a full asgard tech base as fast as possible.

[Starglider]

Ugh. About five, maybe ten minutes of actual plot and thirty minutes of padding. Atmospheric padding, but still the ratio should be the other way around. The chair and ship telemetry discovery is nice but they don't do anything with it this episode. The psych profiles would be tolerable if we hadn't already sat through four hours of tedious character backstory (cumulative to date over nine episodes...), but yeah. This isn't Stargate BSG, it's Stargate Lost - a good episode is one in which something actually happens. 2/5

[Gilthan]

I like character development, but they still need to move on and do something. I only like a character when they've done something I like--or distinguished themselves in some other way. So far nobody has really done that, so throwing them into drama that further muddies the water... it really just serves to make me like them less. Yes, it's interesting to see them not so cookie-cutter, but they're still not really doing much, and the kinds of scenes and sense of growth I like the most are the cheapest and fastest stuff:

Stuff that shows character choices and a passage of time, to show people evolve while off-camera too and makes it feel like a living ship: Eli with Chloe doing stretches, Asian chick destressing via flings, a shot of Rush looking down at a picture of his wife, Greer sitting at peace before what he thought was his death-by-sunfire... those things are windows into their personality. And talk about growth--last episode gave us a view of what people hold most dear, what scares them, motivates them... and it also did it while giving us monsters, exploration, gunfights, science, and mystery. The best part of this episode was the Flogging Molly scenes at beginning and end, and the rest was disposable.

By comparison this is basically a soap opera episode. I would like to see character development like this occur a little more spread out between episodes that give us a reason to care. I don't want to take away anyone else's enjoyment but I find it a little odd that this is supposed to be somehow more 'mature' or enlightened when, aside from some good stuff like last episode, all we're getting is a romantic soap drama with high production values and dark theme. I expect people to look back on these early episodes as the clumsy stumbling blocks that tried to establish tone and character (the same way SG1 started off sluggish and strange) before getting on to whatever will actually make the show good.

Good examples.

While character development has value, this episode mixed in too low a ratio of action, adventure, and sci-fi. SG1 had character development where by the end of 10 seasons you really knew the characters, but they kept the story flowing faster. Hopefully SGU lasts enough seasons for their slow method to pay off.

I don't know how Stargate Universe is doing on ratings for the average audience member, but, personally, I watch sci-fi for an escapist distraction from RL, not so much for seeing the realistic but mundane real-life-based interpersonal troubles of fictional characters alone. Let the characters get known to the viewer through their actions under exciting adversity, then mix in bits of their backstory and personal troubles, not the other way around to a degree that feels forced.

I'm reminded of the Show, Don't Tell admonishment for fiction, and, in that context, characterization by obvious methods like speaking into the Kino camera (or to some degree the psych interviews) feels forced and more of a hack method than the epitome of style. Better would be keeping the story, action, and characterization flowing smoothly together.

[Jade Owl]

It seems extremely retarded for the Ancients to deploy such a device on their premier exploration ship into the unknown. What happens if a race like the Wraith, Goa'uld or Ori got hold of this ship ?

Well, the Destiny is completely covered with lots and lots of energy guns. And they we're expecting to be on the ship themselves at one point. And as plenty of people have pointed out already, we don't really know what that chair actually does.

Besides, this is the Ancients we're talking about, the go to example for Neglectful Precursors. Even before they ascended, they we're notorious for living all sorts of potencially dangerous shit lying around all over at least three galaxies.

[Imperial Overlord]

Wasn't impressed. Far too much whiny, body swapping angst.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Did anyone else get the feeling that Rush made up his false story to try and 'encourage' someone to sacrifice themselves on the chair?

[Zac Naloen]

Did anyone else get the feeling that Rush made up his false story to try and 'encourage' someone to sacrifice themselves on the chair?

It's more likely than the actual reason he gave, he's not exactly known for his people skills.

[NecronLord]

Besides, this is the Ancients we're talking about, the go to example for Neglectful Precursors. Even before they ascended, they we're notorious for living all sorts of potencially dangerous shit lying around all over at least three galaxies.

I'm going to come out and defend them here. Most of that stuff was on Atlantis. Their city. Where they would be the only ones looking at it.

More to the point, in the 'prime' timeline, the High Council securely locked the city behind them, expecting it to eventually be flooded and destroyed. For all we know, in the pre-Before I Sleep timeline, Melia went around clearly labelling all the dangerous stuff with Ancient post-its, but decided it wasn't worth the effort when they decided to seal the city forever. Janus altered that.

Similarly, they pounded the Asurans, who they thought were dangerous, into literal dust. It's not their fault that Oberoth et al managed to survive.

The headsuckers had precautions that only certain people could use them - we presume it locks out jaffa, but it might simply be that they only work for the ATA gene, and that's why they sucked O'Neill, expecting him to be a full ancient.

The only really iffy thing they left behind was Dakara, and I assume that the 'puzzle' on that had more to it than we saw, simply because that's a stupid way to lock something.


When we actually see the Ancients' systems, they are very well designed. The headsuckers autopiloted O'Neill into being able to survive both times, the Asurans had safety protocols in them, the stargates have innumerable safety precautions, their weapons are locked by the gene, and the starship Destiny is doing its damndest to keep itself and its crew (going so far as to keep internal gravity and things on for them even in total freefall) alive. One group of Ancients, before ascending, went so far as to build a great storehouse of weapons and treasure and seal it away, leaving only a fiendishly complex puzzle that requires understanding of their language to work out (the Clava Thessura Infinatas).

A fully developed, non-experimental piece of Ancient technology seems in all cases to be safe.

[Crazedwraith]

How about the killer drone system they left switched on that planet that killed anyone with out the ATA?

[CaptJodan]

More to the point, in the 'prime' timeline, the High Council securely locked the city behind them, expecting it to eventually be flooded and destroyed.

Which actually begs the question, why seal it and let it sit around for any length of time instead of just destroying it outright? If they expected it to be flooded (and given how well ancient tech ages, flooding won't likely be the same as "destroying"...artifacts could likely survive for several hundred or more years after flooding), why not just destroy it all before they left and ensure it wasn't misused.

I'd also note Janus' Jumper as being tech that was clearly just left out in the open for anyone to find. Of course, he presumably knew SG-1 would find it and recover it, but I doubt he knew what they would do with it afterwords...if they would be responsible heirs for technology that is quite dangerous.

Which also brings up the ancient solar flare machine used by Baal, and clearly not ATA required or secured in any way against tampering. Another major technology that could have had (and did in one timeline) disastrous consequences.

There's also the time-loop device, which had pretty major consequences as well. The Ancients even KNEW it didn't work, yet left it to be discovered and reused.

Dakara is most certainly not the only technology the ancients left behind irresponsibly.

The headsuckers had precautions that only certain people could use them - we presume it locks out jaffa, but it might simply be that they only work for the ATA gene, and that's why they sucked O'Neill, expecting him to be a full ancient.

Then we have to assume that Anubis possesses the ATA gene, or his half-ascended nature allows him to operate ancient tech even if he didn't previously have it. He fully expected to be able to use the headsucker, and he was clearly expecting to be able to use the "ancient weapon" once he found it.

[Stargate Nerd]

Which also brings up the ancient solar flare machine used by Baal, and clearly not ATA required or secured in any way against tampering. Another major technology that could have had (and did in one timeline) disastrous consequences.

Is it actually mentioned that the solar flare machine was built by the Ancients? I thought it was created by Baal himself, using the knowledge he acquired on Earth as the head of the Trust?

[NecronLord]

How about the killer drone system they left switched on that planet that killed anyone with out the ATA?

You mean the one that was defending a weapons lab? And which the ancient involved left clear instructions 'this amulet lets you go to the thing to reset it' to the local leaders for? The one that is actually stopping people like the Genii getting their hands on mini-drones? That one?

Sure, it's dangerous, but it's not as if she didn't clearly tell the locals 'don't go into that forest' in such a way that every successive generation knew not to. Presumably she had (what with it being wartime) no less-lethal alternative that'd keep the facility secure.

[NecronLord]

Which actually begs the question, why seal it and let it sit around for any length of time instead of just destroying it outright? If they expected it to be flooded (and given how well ancient tech ages, flooding won't likely be the same as "destroying"...artifacts could likely survive for several hundred or more years after flooding), why not just destroy it all before they left and ensure it wasn't misused.

Most likely, the only options for total destruction would be say, detonating the ZPMs, which would exterminate the flagisallus species. Especially as Atlantis was already sitting on a supervolcano of some sort.

I'd also note Janus' Jumper as being tech that was clearly just left out in the open for anyone to find. Of course, he presumably knew SG-1 would find it and recover it, but I doubt he knew what they would do with it afterwords...if they would be responsible heirs for technology that is quite dangerous.

It spawns alternate timelines. It's not that dangerous. And he did know SG1 would use it, and travelled thousands of years into the future, presumably therefore he's aware of what the Tau'ri become: and he was seriously impressed with Weir anyway.

Which also brings up the ancient solar flare machine used by Baal, and clearly not ATA required or secured in any way against tampering. Another major technology that could have had (and did in one timeline) disastrous consequences.

It was outright said Ba'al built that. No die

There's also the time-loop device, which had pretty major consequences as well. The Ancients even KNEW it didn't work, yet left it to be discovered and reused.

They fucking died of the Plague. How do you expect those researchers to put it beyond use from beyond the grave? You presume the other ancients even knew about it. Given that society was knocked back so badly that after re-seeding they just headed out into a lifeless galaxy to start anew... yeah. Not much housekeeping they could be expected to do there. Never mind that the thing didn't actually do that much harm anyway.

Dakara is most certainly not the only technology the ancients left behind irresponsibly.

The headsuckers had precautions that only certain people could use them - we presume it locks out jaffa, but it might simply be that they only work for the ATA gene, and that's why they sucked O'Neill, expecting him to be a full ancient.

Then we have to assume that Anubis possesses the ATA gene, or his half-ascended nature allows him to operate ancient tech even if he didn't previously have it. He fully expected to be able to use the headsucker, and he was clearly expecting to be able to use the "ancient weapon" once he found it.

Carter planned to take it apart and read its crystals, remember?

Additionally, yes, ascended beings can use ATA gear. Chaya Sar did so.

[CaptJodan]

Which also brings up the ancient solar flare machine used by Baal, and clearly not ATA required or secured in any way against tampering. Another major technology that could have had (and did in one timeline) disastrous consequences.

Is it actually mentioned that the solar flare machine was built by the Ancients? I thought it was created by Baal himself, using the knowledge he acquired on Earth as the head of the Trust?

The design really doesn't fit Earth or goa'uld related designs. If he built it, it's highly influenced by the Ancients.

[NecronLord]

It had ancient text, but so did Ba'al's ha'taks since about season 9. It's likely he gained much information from his time on Earth. It was said that he'd put sattellites in orbit of all the stars depicted to calculate stargate routes using their solar flares.

Aestetically, aside from using Ancient text, it was entirely goa'uld. Goa'uld uninventiveness is strongly overstated in general. Much as Ancient negligence is.

[CaptJodan]

Most likely, the only options for total destruction would be say, detonating the ZPMs, which would exterminate the flagisallus species. Especially as Atlantis was already sitting on a supervolcano of some sort.

So apparently, according to you, the Ancients can't destroy their own city with anything less than a planetary extinction event because...

Right, your say so. Even though McKay detonated another city by overloading ZPMs that didn't cause massive damage to the surrounding area. Yes, of the two ideas...keeping the city completely intact and blowing it up on the surface of the planet where the prorogation of destruction would be minimized (because, after all, the expedition had an auto destruct they had set in place to do just that) are the only two options the ancients could use. Right....

It spawns alternate timelines. It's not that dangerous. And he did know SG1 would use it, and travelled thousands of years into the future, presumably therefore he's aware of what the Tau'ri become:

Bullshit. He knew only the events on that planet, and had a hard-on for Weir. He didn't go see the future of every planet that he was interested in.

It was outright said Ba'al built that. No die

Quote that, please.

They fucking died of the Plague. How do you expect those researchers to put it beyond use from beyond the grave? You presume the other ancients even knew about it. Given that society was knocked back so badly that after re-seeding they just headed out into a lifeless galaxy to start anew... yeah. Not much housekeeping they could do there.

I expect them to destroy it WHEN THEY TURN IT OFF (like they said they did in the episode)! They built it to try and buy time to find a cure for the plague. They realized it wouldn't work to help in that goal, so they shut it off. What, you think the moment they shut it off they all instantly died? They could easily have destroyed it between the time of deciding to shut it down, and dying of the plague.

Additionally, yes, ascended beings can use ATA gear. Chaya Sar did so.

Which only reinforces why the ancients are douchebags. One of their own ascended someone against the rules who should never have been ascended. It is their fault that Anubis exists, and their fault if he accesses the headsucker (beyond "reading the crystals" as a normal goa'uld might do). Now, if Anubis plays by those rules, then sure, no real problem. But he couldn't just "read the crystals" to make the chair work. He was probably just going to sit his ass in it and use it.

[Crazedwraith]

How about the killer drone system they left switched on that planet that killed anyone with out the ATA?

You mean the one that was defending a weapons lab? And which the ancient involved left clear instructions 'this amulet lets you go to the thing to reset it' to the local leaders for? The one that is actually stopping people like the Genii getting their hands on mini-drones? That one?

Yu mean locking the door to stop people getting in would have been to complicated? Or you know; just dismantling your lab when you were done with it and take all the useful war materials and information with you?