SGU 109: "Life" (Spoilers)

[CaptJodan]

Aestetically, aside from using Ancient text, it was entirely goa'uld. Goa'uld uninventiveness is strongly overstated in general. Much as Ancient negligence is.

Aesthetically, it really isn't. The area isn't lit by little fires everywhere (as was evident on his own flagship), but rather by white, ground illumination that resembles a lot of what the Ancients used. The Octangle floors are also kind of a giveaway towards more Ancient rather than Goa'uld design.

[CaptJodan]

How about the killer drone system they left switched on that planet that killed anyone with out the ATA?

You mean the one that was defending a weapons lab? And which the ancient involved left clear instructions 'this amulet lets you go to the thing to reset it' to the local leaders for? The one that is actually stopping people like the Genii getting their hands on mini-drones? That one?

Yu mean locking the door to stop people getting in would have been to complicated? Or you know; just dismantling your lab when you were done with it and take all the useful war materials and information with you?

Remember, it's completely responsible to leave highly advanced weapons in the hands of primitives who know nothing about them, so long as you explain it in simple terms to them. Never mind that the primitives come to rely on the device, or that it could still be captured if the amulet falls into the wrong hands.

[NecronLord]

Most likely, the only options for total destruction would be say, detonating the ZPMs, which would exterminate the flagisallus species. Especially as Atlantis was already sitting on a supervolcano of some sort.

So apparently, according to you, the Ancients can't destroy their own city with anything less than a planetary extinction event because...

Right, your say so. Even though McKay detonated another city by overloading ZPMs that didn't cause massive damage to the surrounding area.

A wraith cruiser self destruct in the same area was going to cause a massive ecological catastrophe. Detonating a city ship would surely be likely enough to do likewise that it would be unworkable.

Bullshit. He knew only the events on that planet, and had a hard-on for Weir. He didn't go see the future of every planet that he was interested in.

How do you know where he went and what he learnt? He bothered to write down the history of that planet, that's all.

It was outright said Ba'al built that. No die

Quote that, please.

BA'AL
A recently completed failsafe device should an unfortunate circumstance such as my imminent death, arise. It was you who gave us the idea, actually. I suspect it has already been put into action.

There you go.

They fucking died of the Plague. How do you expect those researchers to put it beyond use from beyond the grave? You presume the other ancients even knew about it. Given that society was knocked back so badly that after re-seeding they just headed out into a lifeless galaxy to start anew... yeah. Not much housekeeping they could do there.

I expect them to destroy it WHEN THEY TURN IT OFF (like they said they did in the episode)! They built it to try and buy time to find a cure for the plague. They realized it wouldn't work to help in that goal, so they shut it off. What, you think the moment they shut it off they all instantly died? They could easily have destroyed it between the time of deciding to shut it down, and dying of the plague.

It was never destroyed. You're thinking of the quantum mirror. It does however, use a natural power source that only allows it to become active every fifty years.

Right, but it didn’t work. Instead of sending a team of scientists back to the key moment in their history the device caused a short term continuous loop. Just like the one we’ve been experiencing. They experienced the same day dozens perhaps hundreds of times trying to get the machine to work but in the end they gave up, they shut it down and…let the end come

From that all that can be said was that they died of the plague. They had time to carve stuff on walls, but even assuming they didn't have a machine for that (which seems unlikely, given how regular their carvings always were) that doesn't mean they had something capable of easily destroying it available when they realised they were past the point of no return.

Which only reinforces why the ancients are douchebags. One of their own ascended someone against the rules who should never have been ascended. It is their fault that Anubis exists, and their fault if he accesses the headsucker (beyond "reading the crystals" as a normal goa'uld might do). Now, if Anubis plays by those rules, then sure, no real problem. But he couldn't just "read the crystals" to make the chair work. He was probably just going to sit his ass in it and use it.

Moving goalposts. I'm talking about leaving dangerous stuff around, and their engineering competance, not their general conduct as ascended beings.

In any case, why couldn't a regular goa'uld use it? A rather desperate wraith seemed reasonably convinced that he could use ATA stuff by cutting off Sheppard's hands and using those. Never mind that he could simply, say, mind-condition O'neill using the sarcophagus, bingo-bango, ATA stuff works. A regular goa'uld with his knowledge could simply take an ATA host (even if headsuckers ignore goa'uld deliberately, the chair thing shouldn't, as it was built millions of years ago).

[NecronLord]

Aestetically, aside from using Ancient text, it was entirely goa'uld. Goa'uld uninventiveness is strongly overstated in general. Much as Ancient negligence is.

Aesthetically, it really isn't. The area isn't lit by little fires everywhere (as was evident on his own flagship), but rather by white, ground illumination that resembles a lot of what the Ancients used. The Octangle floors are also kind of a giveaway towards more Ancient rather than Goa'uld design.

What the fuck?

It's giant and shiny and gold. The goa'uld have used white wall lighting since season 2 (Hathor's complex) and they are quite capable of making octagons. Do you also presume the lamp behind Ba'al's throne was also built by the ancients? It's white and glowy.

[NecronLord]

How about the killer drone system they left switched on that planet that killed anyone with out the ATA?

You mean the one that was defending a weapons lab? And which the ancient involved left clear instructions 'this amulet lets you go to the thing to reset it' to the local leaders for? The one that is actually stopping people like the Genii getting their hands on mini-drones? That one?

Yu mean locking the door to stop people getting in would have been to complicated? Or you know; just dismantling your lab when you were done with it and take all the useful war materials and information with you?

Oh yes, because when you're losing in wartime, it's so easy to up sticks and move your labs around. Oh wait, no it's not.

It would be very easy to imagine the options are either use the drones to defend the test site, or leave them in a place the wraith may get hold of them. Do you people expect every Ancient to carry around a huge stack of explosives at all times or something?

[Crazedwraith]

I am in a weapons lab. Therefore I have no weapons or explosives of any kind that I could use to destroy things?

[CaptJodan]

A wraith cruiser self destruct in the same area was going to cause a massive ecological catastrophe. Detonating a city ship would surely be likely enough to do likewise that it would be unworkable.

The wraith cruiser was on the seabed. Atlantis could have risen to the surface and destructed the city, making the ecological damage minimal. Or they could have simply taken off.

How do you know where he went and what he learnt? He bothered to write down the history of that planet, that's all.

So no evidence that he had any idea what the Tauri would become. Thank you.

BA'AL
A recently completed failsafe device should an unfortunate circumstance such as my imminent death, arise. It was you who gave us the idea, actually. I suspect it has already been put into action.

I take that to mean that he seeded the satellites, but that the original facility was already built. However, lacking evidence, I'll concede that one. I still don't think it looks Goa'uld in any way.

It was never destroyed. You're thinking of the quantum mirror. It does however, use a natural power source that only allows it to become active every fifty years.

I'm not thinking of the mirror. I'm not sure what you mean by it wasn't destroyed, because you're right, it wasn't. That's my point. As for its power source...that doesn't prevent someone from misusing it, it only prevents them from misusing it at a moment of their choosing.

From that all that can be said was that they died of the plague. They had time to carve stuff on walls, but even assuming they didn't have a machine for that (which seems unlikely, given how regular their carvings always were) that doesn't mean they had something capable of easily destroying it available when they realised they were past the point of no return.

I don't buy that in the slightest. It's pretty clear from your quoted section that the device didn't push them back far enough before the plague started. It put them back only so far (the same day), then put them in an annoying loop. You assume that the moment they turned it off, they simply died right there. We don't know how long they lived after the device was shut down, but I doubt they all died immediately after.

They knew the end was coming, and they knew no one would be left on the planet after their deaths. The responsible thing to do would be to make sure the device was destroyed or dismantled. Push over a pillar, for godsake, it was clearly part of the device's function. Face it, this was a piece of technology willingly left behind, especially since they had plenty of time to devise a way to destroy it through multiple loops.

Moving goalposts. I'm talking about leaving dangerous stuff around, and their engineering competance, not their general conduct as ascended beings.

I suppose the point is you continue to assert that their security measures with their left-behind technology were clearly adequate, and then suddenly argue against your own position, as evidenced below.

In any case, why couldn't a regular goa'uld use it? A rather desperate wraith seemed reasonably convinced that he could use ATA stuff by cutting off Sheppard's hands and using those. Never mind that he could simply, say, mind-condition O'neill using the sarcophagus, bingo-bango, ATA stuff works. A regular goa'uld with his knowledge could simply take an ATA host (even if headsuckers ignore goa'uld deliberately, the chair thing shouldn't, as it was built millions of years ago).

[NecronLord]

I am in a weapons lab. Therefore I have no weapons or explosives of any kind that I could use to destroy things?

Given that there's no evidence the mini-drones have an explosive element, no. What you have is a swarm of dangerous autonamous projectiles, that were likely never designed to engage one another (especially not in the same swarm).

[CaptJodan]

I am in a weapons lab. Therefore I have no weapons or explosives of any kind that I could use to destroy things?

Or, you know, the very drones that are available and are clearly working to be used against the device itself.

[CaptJodan]

Given that there's no evidence the mini-drones have an explosive element, no. What you have is a swarm of dangerous autonamous projectiles, that were likely never designed to engage one another (especially not in the same swarm).

The device used to interface with the drones could easily have been destroyed by the drones themselves, just swarming and punching holes through the components till it is left in shambles.

[NecronLord]

The wraith cruiser was on the seabed. Atlantis could have risen to the surface and destructed the city, making the ecological damage minimal. Or they could have simply taken off.

Risen to the surface and destroyed it? Uhuh. Even assuming it doesn't contain anything particularly toxic, that will still have to be a significant explosion unless you want the wraith to comb over what's left of your intergalactic drives.

Flying it out of there clearly isn't an option with hundreds of wraith ships around the planet.

This is rediculous. The city was doing no harm on the bottom of the ocean, and they originally planned to return (Morgan talks about having planned to live among the people of Earth and teach them, but the shock of discovering their barbarity in the Pegasus Project) there. After that, the High Council locked it, but Janus decided it was worth giving the plucky humans their chance to have the city and live in it too.

It was clear the Wraith thought it destroyed, or at least, not worth monitoring, so really, why bother blowing it up, other than pointless like of big boomity?

So no evidence that he had any idea what the Tauri would become. Thank you.

Except that he put it exactly where it needed to be for them to kill a goa'uld. He clearly knew exactly where O'neill and co would be. And left it there for them. Why assume that he wouldn't know what kind of people they'd be?

I'm not thinking of the mirror. I'm not sure what you mean by it wasn't destroyed, because you're right, it wasn't.

I was assuming you were saying that it was put beyond use by SG1, which it wasn't. The writers wrote in a reason why we'd never see it used again.

That's my point. As for its power source...that doesn't prevent someone from misusing it, it only prevents them from misusing it at a moment of their choosing.

I don't buy that in the slightest. It's pretty clear from your quoted section that the device didn't push them back far enough before the plague started. It put them back only so far (the same day), then put them in an annoying loop. You assume that the moment they turned it off, they simply died right there. We don't know how long they lived after the device was shut down, but I doubt they all died immediately after.

Why? They clearly already had the plague (else why would they have died?) so with each loop they come closer to dying.

They knew the end was coming, and they knew no one would be left on the planet after their deaths. The responsible thing to do would be to make sure the device was destroyed or dismantled. Push over a pillar, for godsake, it was clearly part of the device's function. Face it, this was a piece of technology willingly left behind, especially since they had plenty of time to devise a way to destroy it through multiple loops.

Uhuh. So, they should go about destroying the thing by hand... Have you ever actually tried to push over a large pillar without mechanical aid? I propose an experiment: Go outside, try it on the nearest streetlamp. Report your level of success. Now imagine that streetlamp is capable of standing against the elements for over two million years, adjust your results appropriately.

Never mind that there was no evidence that life would even survive in the Milky Way (remember the Dakara device? By the end of the plague, according to Anubis, it was necessary to widely re-seed life) enough to justify the effort. How should those scientists have known that there would ever be living things in Avalon that could come along and use it? Let alone pound with bloody fists upon its naquadah laced stone while dying of space-meningitis.

And even then, it didn't do much harm.

I suppose the point is you continue to assert that their security measures with their left-behind technology were clearly adequate, and then suddenly argue against your own position, as evidenced below.

Not at all. They're adequate to stop any moron happening along and using it. Obviously they won't stop someone sufficiently determined using your stuff: no security is or can be perfect.

[Crazedwraith]

Except you know; Not leaving your shit around the place in the first place. Which brings us back to square one.

[NecronLord]

Given that there's no evidence the mini-drones have an explosive element, no. What you have is a swarm of dangerous autonamous projectiles, that were likely never designed to engage one another (especially not in the same swarm).

The device used to interface with the drones could easily have been destroyed by the drones themselves, just swarming and punching holes through the components till it is left in shambles.

They were used as an area denial weapon. For all you know, that'd make them fully autonamous and able to seek targets on their own, as the older model drones are when not directed by a command unit (Rising)

[NecronLord]

Except you know; Not leaving your shit around the place in the first place. Which brings us back to square one.

Dakara was sealed (badly)
Atlantis was sealed.
The Thessura Infinatas was sealed.
The Ark of Truth was buried.
The mini-drones were active and killing anyone that came near them.
The Asurans were nearly exterminated.

The headsuckers were intended to be found.
The time-jumper was intended to be found by the exact people that found it.

Merlin's Treausre (both sets) was hidden away
The Sangraal was hidden away.

Everyone involved with the time looper was killed, and knowledge lost.
Everyone involved with Project Arcturus was killed, and the war was lost.

This isn't exactly lying around, except where it's intended to be.

[Crazedwraith]

And the minor matter of stargates on hundreds of worlds they never went to. Or put to any useful purpose.

[NecronLord]

And the minor matter of stargates on hundreds of worlds they never went to. Or put to any useful purpose.

They certainly could have and perhaps should have, deactivated the stargate networks in each galaxy when they left. Though there's no garuntee that the wraith at any rate couldn't unlock them (the wraith are very good at computers, from what we've seen) again.

But as this series and this episode shows, the construction of stargates costs them nothing after initial investment, so why not seed as many planets as you like with them?

[Crazedwraith]

But as this series and this episode shows, the construction of stargates costs them nothing after initial investment, so why not seed as many planets as you like with them?

The idea amuses me at least. "Hey froods, we've got a surplus of funds here! What shall we do with it?" "Why lets build a bunch of those freaky ring devices all over the place!" "By Zarktron! What a good idea!"

Serious Stargate made a lot more sense when gate were on Goa'uld slave worlds and ex-bases and things. Though its possible every seemingly uninhibited world we've seen was also inhabited and has Ancient or Furling bones under the surface just waiting for the archaeologist teams.

[NecronLord]

Eh. Even assuming the seeding ships aren't self replicating (I think they might be) all they have to do is build one, and program it to fly around the Milky Way or Pegasus, plunking them down until it falls apart a million years ago.

[CaptJodan]

Work, so I won't be able to beat this back and forth as fast.

Risen to the surface and destroyed it? Uhuh. Even assuming it doesn't contain anything particularly toxic, that will still have to be a significant explosion unless you want the wraith to comb over what's left of your intergalactic drives.

Flying it out of there clearly isn't an option with hundreds of wraith ships around the planet.

Why? Seriously. We're not even talking about necessarily getting it all the way to orbit. Get it as far as needed not to pollute the atmosphere, assuming that's even necessary, or even if you can't do that, this is the city that stood bombardment for months. Shit, all it needs to do is lower the shield before impacting a Wraith Hive, thus ensuring destruction.

This is rediculous. The city was doing no harm on the bottom of the ocean, and they originally planned to return (Morgan talks about having planned to live among the people of Earth and teach them, but the shock of discovering their barbarity in the Pegasus Project) there. After that, the High Council locked it, but Janus decided it was worth giving the plucky humans their chance to have the city and live in it too.

Now who is moving goalposts? First you claim that they originally expected it to just flood in the original timeline. Now you expect them to return. Which is it?

Clearly Janus, in the new timeline, knows that Earth will arrive. After that, he has no idea what might happen. It's pretty clear that the humans fucked up almost the moment after stepping through the gate and awoke the Wraith before they were due to be. Many, many Pegasus humans died because of that decision.

It was clear the Wraith thought it destroyed, or at least, not worth monitoring, so really, why bother blowing it up, other than pointless like of big boomity?

Yeah, and how did they find that out it worked? Honestly, the whole thing doesn't make sense. If the city was already underwater when Weir arrived, then the Wraith knew it was a submerged city, and thus shouldn't leave just because the Ancients did. But if they submerged the city afterward, and it was enough to fool the Wraith into thinking it was destroyed, why leave the city at all? Why not surface when the Wraith depart, and fly the fuck away to a safer location?

Except that he put it exactly where it needed to be for them to kill a goa'uld. He clearly knew exactly where O'neill and co would be. And left it there for them. Why assume that he wouldn't know what kind of people they'd be?

He went into the future for that particular world and researched its own history. He knew visitors arrived and used his ship to quell the Goa'uld. There's no evidence that he went to Earth and found out who saved the town.

Why? They clearly already had the plague (else why would they have died?) so with each loop they come closer to dying.

Because no one aged during the time loops. By all indications, their bodies remained as old as they were during that day. As such, the virus wouldn't have gotten any worse than that specific day.

Uhuh. So, they should go about destroying the thing by hand... Have you ever actually tried to push over a large pillar without mechanical aid? I propose an experiment: Go outside, try it on the nearest streetlamp. Report your level of success. Now imagine that streetlamp is capable of standing against the elements for over two million years, adjust your results appropriately.

It's a red herring anyway, because we're dealing with a technological society that only YOU assume was limited in its technology except for the time device. And yes, I expect that since they were able to build it, they should be able to manually take it apart...maybe crush some crystals. That shouldn't take more than a rock.

Never mind that there was no evidence that life would even survive in the Milky Way (remember the Dakara device? By the end of the plague, according to Anubis, it was necessary to widely re-seed life) enough to justify the effort. How should those scientists have known that there would ever be living things in Avalon that could come along and use it? Let alone pound with bloody fists upon its naquadah laced stone while dying of space-meningitis.

It was something that DIDN'T WORK, and given the Ancients, I'm sure they went through as many loops as they thought possible before they were absolutely sure it wouldn't work. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if these same scientists knew about Dakara's existence.

And even then, it didn't do much harm.

I'm sure Jack O'Neill would disagree there.

Not at all. They're adequate to stop any moron happening along and using it. Obviously they won't stop someone sufficiently determined using your stuff: no security is or can be perfect.

Crazedwraith covered this. Destroying or disassembling the technology is a pretty effective means of ensuring someone down the line doesn't use/abuse it.

[NecronLord]

Now who is moving goalposts? First you claim that they originally expected it to just flood in the original timeline. Now you expect them to return. Which is it?

I said prime timeline, by which I mean the one the show follows. The Before I Sleep timeline I reffered to as the previous timeline. In the prime timeline, they expected it to flood.

Clearly Janus, in the new timeline, knows that Earth will arrive. After that, he has no idea what might happen. It's pretty clear that the humans fucked up almost the moment after stepping through the gate and awoke the Wraith before they were due to be. Many, many Pegasus humans died because of that decision.

And the Wraith are decimated and there's a very realistic possibility they will be destroyed, meaning no future cullings, ever. He let them have it because Weir asked, that doesn't count for 'leaving stuff lying around' any more than I leave money lying around when I give it to a beggar.

Also, I'm not saying Janus is perfect - he's not. He likely caused the Lanteans to lose the war in the first place with the Aterro device.

Yeah, and how did they find that out it worked?

The Wraith couldn't get in while the shield was up. In the pre-timeline, the Ancients expected to return at some point, leaving the city to slumber until they could retake it. The ZPMs would have kept the wraith out for ten thousand years, more than long enough for that plan.

Honestly, the whole thing doesn't make sense. If the city was already underwater when Weir arrived, then the Wraith knew it was a submerged city, and thus shouldn't leave just because the Ancients did. But if they submerged the city afterward, and it was enough to fool the Wraith into thinking it was destroyed, why leave the city at all? Why not surface when the Wraith depart, and fly the fuck away to a safer location?

One would assume that the Wraith maintained a watch on it for however long it took for them to begin their hibernation cycle, and after that, assumed the Ancients had starved or whatever.

He went into the future for that particular world and researched its own history. He knew visitors arrived and used his ship to quell the Goa'uld. There's no evidence that he went to Earth and found out who saved the town.

And? So? Your argument is that he had no idea what would be done with the time jumper later. You're basically making up reasons for incompetance - we have no idea how much he knows or does not know.

Even then, it's not especially abusable. It hives off timelines each time it's used to change history. And there are going to be infinite timelines where the Ancients went evil and grind the folk of the Milky Way under their iron squid-heels, so really, the option to create a few more is an insignificant risk: Really he just gave them another jumper, in position to make a neat little closed timelike curve. He also hived off numerous timelines where O'Neill shot Ra in the face in 3000 BC and was brutally tortured to death a thousand times when Ra got up. Once you actually bother with SG time travel, then every possibility is played out anyway.

It's a red herring anyway, because we're dealing with a technological society that only YOU assume was limited in its technology except for the time device. And yes, I expect that since they were able to build it, they should be able to manually take it apart...maybe crush some crystals. That shouldn't take more than a rock.

I am assuming that the scientists on hand didn't have enough stuff on hand to deal with the thing. Oh, and now it's crushing crystals, is it? You've evidence of how strong they are I take it? The only thing we've seen damage them is energy weapons and extreme heat. Why would they be carrying weapons on a purely peaceful mission? One supposes they could remove components and disintegrate them in the kawoosh, if you're really going that mad on it.

But this is a hilarious rigmarole to put something largely harmless out of commission, when there would not be anyone around to abuse it for a million years if ever anyway.

Crazedwraith covered this. Destroying or disassembling the technology is a pretty effective means of ensuring someone down the line doesn't use/abuse it.

And is also, in most of these cases, superflous. The vast majority of ancient goodies are sealed away. Some, like the Ark of Truth and the Sangraal, required literal divine intervention to find. Ignoring that in Pegasus, much of it was left in situ because they either intended to return, or have it flooded, or in the field, because they were being overrun. That leaves us with their Milky Way things, which are gene-coded outposts and a few other gizmos, none of which were easily accessible.

Basically, you're arguing that to qualify as responsibile, they have to destroy every single piece of potentially dangerous technology they ever made? Holy shit.

[CaptJodan]

And the Wraith are decimated and there's a very realistic possibility they will be destroyed, meaning no future cullings, ever. He let them have it because Weir asked, that doesn't count for 'leaving stuff lying around' any more than I leave money lying around when I give it to a beggar.

How are the Wraith decimated? Why would Janus honestly believe that Weir and her team would be more competent at dealing with the Wraith than the Ancients were? He's taking a huge risk by trusting her, and as you yourself admit, a hell of a lot of toys exist in Atlantis for others to take if they fail.

Also, I'm not saying Janus is perfect - he's not. He likely caused the Lanteans to lose the war in the first place with the Aterro device.

And I'm not saying Janus is a complete idiot either. Ultimately, so far as we know, his decision was the right one, at least in saving Atlantis, though it's debatable just how right it it is until we get the movie. Until then, the Wraith continue to be unopposed in the Pegasus galaxy, culling at will.

The Wraith couldn't get in while the shield was up. In the pre-timeline, the Ancients expected to return at some point, leaving the city to slumber until they could retake it. The ZPMs would have kept the wraith out for ten thousand years, more than long enough for that plan.

Or they could have just stayed on Atlantis.

One would assume that the Wraith maintained a watch on it for however long it took for them to begin their hibernation cycle, and after that, assumed the Ancients had starved or whatever.

So now the Ancients can't grow food? They can build fantastic flying cities, but haven't experimented with hydroponics? The Ancients had an entire city, by all accounts safe under water (for some unknown reason). It's far more likely they could wait out the Wraith than the Wraith out wait them.

This all assumes that A, they put a watch on Atlantis, and B, that that watch was actually a considerable force, otherwise if they just put a few darts or a single cruiser or hive in orbit, Atlantis could take off and jump to hyperspace before reinforcements could arrive.

And? So? Your argument is that he had no idea what would be done with the time jumper later. You're basically making up reasons for incompetance - we have no idea how much he knows or does not know.

My argument is that he took the information from this world's history, wrote it down, and didn't exactly look into the details of how it all occurred. Assuming the history was complete enough, he might have guessed that his jumper was what saves the day. He may even have known that it was the Tauri who saved them. But that's where his interest in what happened to his tech seems to have ended. If he did more, and we have no evidence that he did, he didn't leave any clues.

I would hope that any species who can manipulate time would understand the need to be responsible with it beyond a singular event. Just making sure that Jack intercepts the Jumper isn't enough. You want to make sure that technology is used responsibly once it's taken home to that world.

I am assuming that the scientists on hand didn't have enough stuff on hand to deal with the thing.

You're really not arguing that at all. You're arguing that them leaving it behind simply didn't matter. But I do think it a leap to suggest this highly advanced society builds a highly advanced machine...but has no tools whatsoever to take it apart or demolish it.

Oh, and now it's crushing crystals, is it? You've evidence of how strong they are I take it? The only thing we've seen damage them is energy weapons and extreme heat.

And gunfire.

Why would they be carrying weapons on a purely peaceful mission?

It's funny that you mention that, given the episode in question and the very comment made in that episode. But besides that, I would assume a weapon would be somewhere on the planet, given that it was more than just a planet with a single device. There were ruins all around. Daniel even says that it was a colony of the ancients, and that they had survived there for THOUSANDS of years. So you're saying that an established colony that had sat there for thousands of years didn't have a single piece of technology that could dismantle or destroy the device. Really?

One supposes they could remove components and disintegrate them in the kawoosh, if you're really going that mad on it.

Now you're thinkin.

But this is a hilarious rigmarole to put something largely harmless out of commission, when there would not be anyone around to abuse it for a million years if ever anyway.

There is simply no way for the Ancients to know for certain that no other race might come across it in a million years or even sooner. It was irresponsible.

And is also, in most of these cases, superflous. The vast majority of ancient goodies are sealed away. Some, like the Ark of Truth and the Sangraal, required literal divine intervention to find.

No one's arguing these. Clearly Merlin knew what the fuck he was doing.

Basically, you're arguing that to qualify as responsibile, they have to destroy every single piece of potentially dangerous technology they ever made? Holy shit.

There were certain pieces of their technology that were clearly not hidden anywhere near well. Some of the Ancients did their jobs pretty well, and hid technology in such a way that DID make it hard to find. Some was literally left out in the open. You "like to think" that getting to Dakara was harder than it looked, but there was no evidence that it was hard at all. The time-loop device IS a harmful device that, if used properly, could be a pretty fantastic weapon (imagine if the device had been made portable and been connected to a few replicator worlds. The bugs wouldn't have been able to get past a single day, and they wouldn't know that they were reliving it).

Atlantis gets a pass only because Janus knew it would fall into the right hands, though I'd question just how much he knew about Weir and her team before agreeing to do that.

[Crazedwraith]

For somethings you have to wonder why they are operational thousands of years later, I mean Dakarra is a prime example; it was device they used to repopulate the galaxy after the devastation of the plague. That's a pretty limited usage. Why do you keep a device like that around once you've used it for its purpose? And if it's a once shot device why built it with an Anicent Everlasting Power Source[sup]TM[/sup]? Why do you leave in such a condition that anyone with a basic grasp of your language (Carter is hardly an expert in ancient even after 7 years of working with Daniel) can gain access and reprogramme it into a weapon of mass destruction?

Why is it even on? They don't need to use an earth shattering ka-boom on it. They just need to unplug it.

[NecronLord]

How are the Wraith decimated? Why would Janus honestly believe that Weir and her team would be more competent at dealing with the Wraith than the Ancients were? He's taking a huge risk by trusting her, and as you yourself admit, a hell of a lot of toys exist in Atlantis for others to take if they fail.

Presumably the Wraith aren't what they were when they started their war with the Ancients and thus less of a challenge.

As for how they're decimated; that's what starvation, civil war, war with the Asurans, disease (hoffan drug via michael) will do that. We've seen or heard of almost thirty of their original sixty hive ships destroyed, and while that doesn't count cruisers and any more hives they've laid down, that's got to be a sizeable chunk of their population.

Or they could have just stayed on Atlantis.

They could indeed. The reasons for their withdrawl were never said to be military.

So now the Ancients can't grow food? They can build fantastic flying cities, but haven't experimented with hydroponics? The Ancients had an entire city, by all accounts safe under water (for some unknown reason). It's far more likely they could wait out the Wraith than the Wraith out wait them.

No, now the Wraith would assume they'd pissed off somewhere or starved or whatever after a thousand years of inactivity...

This all assumes that A, they put a watch on Atlantis, and B, that that watch was actually a considerable force, otherwise if they just put a few darts or a single cruiser or hive in orbit, Atlantis could take off and jump to hyperspace before reinforcements could arrive.

And yet they didn't. But then, the Wraith couldn't get Atlantis, so we know there was no military motive for the evacuation.

I would hope that any species who can manipulate time would understand the need to be responsible with it beyond a singular event. Just making sure that Jack intercepts the Jumper isn't enough. You want to make sure that technology is used responsibly once it's taken home to that world.

They can't change history. They can hive off timelines and dialate time. Oddly enough, the only 'manipulating time' on that level we've seen is from Ba'al, though god knows how that works.

There is simply no way for the Ancients to know for certain that no other race might come across it in a million years or even sooner. It was irresponsible.

It doesn't work. What would some other race do with it? They'd have to translate the texts to turn it on, and do what? Time loop some barren planets? Big whoop, let em. Were I one of the scientists involved, I'd rather fuck off and get a jumbo crate of painkillers and condoms to let the end come, rather than spending time dismantling the damn thing on the offchance some hypothetical aliens stumble across it in the future who're advanced enough to comprehend it but not wise enough to use it wisely, and indeed, dumb or desperate enough to use it maliciously, given that you'd have to actually set out to cause serious harm to people with that thing.

This is assuming it's not some more-advanced race than themselves anyway.

There were certain pieces of their technology that were clearly not hidden anywhere near well. Some of the Ancients did their jobs pretty well, and hid technology in such a way that DID make it hard to find. Some was literally left out in the open. You "like to think" that getting to Dakara was harder than it looked, but there was no evidence that it was hard at all.

And I specifically said it was a stupid exception in my first post on this topic.

The time-loop device IS a harmful device that, if used properly, could be a pretty fantastic weapon (imagine if the device had been made portable and been connected to a few replicator worlds. The bugs wouldn't have been able to get past a single day, and they wouldn't know that they were reliving it).

That would require more advanced technology than the Ancients had. Rendering the point moot. Such a race would need superior power systems; the Ancients had to rely on a unique property of that planet, and would therefore probably be superior in all respects.

Atlantis gets a pass only because Janus knew it would fall into the right hands, though I'd question just how much he knew about Weir and her team before agreeing to do that.

It's implied she lived there for some days and he asked her lots of questions. Probably a fair bit.

[NecronLord]

For somethings you have to wonder why they are operational thousands of years later, I mean Dakarra is a prime example; it was device they used to repopulate the galaxy after the devastation of the plague. That's a pretty limited usage. Why do you keep a device like that around once you've used it for its purpose? And if it's a once shot device why built it with an Anicent Everlasting Power Source[sup]TM[/sup]? Why do you leave in such a condition that anyone with a basic grasp of your language (Carter is hardly an expert in ancient even after 7 years of working with Daniel) can gain access and reprogramme it into a weapon of mass destruction?

Why is it even on? They don't need to use an earth shattering ka-boom on it. They just need to unplug it.

Like I said, the Dakara device is so mind-numbingly dumb it makes no sense. It would be far better for Anubis to simply have been building it on Dakara himself, and for them to find it there when they took the planet. If he'd been building it since Season 6, then they could have even retained the bit about Replicarter discovering it in Daniel's mind.

[Bilbo]

Why is everyone arguing Dakara? The place was continually habinated by the Jaffa and Goa'uld for thousands of years and no one had even an ounce of inkling what the place did.

The only time the place became a threat was when Anubis, a formerly ascended being, told poeple the place existed and made plans to use it.

While the security around the Dakara controls may appear to be rather weak its hard to make that arguement when they kept anyone from finding the place all that time.

Even when the place is found it takes time to program the weapon, its an assumption that it is on kill everyone mode by default, and it took a very talented Goa'uld who knows how to do a simultaneous Stargate dial.

Without all of that in place you have something that is no more dangerous than a single planet destroyer weapon, and that is if you find it and you figure out how to program it. Screw up using the weapon and there is a good chance that the only poeple dying are those on Dakara. When the Jaffa used the weapon against planets that went Ori it was clearly said there was a specific protective chamber they were in.

With this in mind the Stargate exploding weapon also found by Anubis and left behind by the Ancients was equally as dangerous and we have no idea at all how well hidden that getup was.