Assisted Suicide in Trek

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2003-02-13 11:56am

In ST:The Final Frontier, Sybok had Dr. McCoy have a flashback to where His Father Begged him to be taken off life support, thus causing immediate death. Also on Voyager, Q helped deliver poison to ex-Q Quinn.

Q is untouchable, but no charges seem to have been brought against Bones.

Are we to infer that assisted suicide is condoned in the Federation?

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-02-13 12:32pm

Well Trek is and always has been quite liberal it is quite possible that euthanasia is indeed condoned by UFP (Roddenberry was an atheist after all).

Or Bones just never got caught.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-02-13 01:16pm

I'd say that no one but McCoy really knew about it.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-13 01:52pm

Enola Straight wrote:Are we to infer that assisted suicide is condoned in the Federation?

It would be in line with most of their extremely liberal rhetoric.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-13 01:55pm

How does that jibe howver with the attitude in TNG episode where Worf's back is broken. When asked to help him commit suicide, Riker is appalled. Dr. Crusher does everything in her power to give him a good life without even entertaining suicide as an option and Deanna also IIRC tries to talk Worf out of it.

I think McCoy killed his dad and told no one about it. Thats part of the reason why it was so painful. If assisted suicide was a common thing in the Federation then McCoy would not be as plagued by the memories as he was.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-13 02:12pm

Stravo wrote:How does that jibe howver with the attitude in TNG episode where Worf's back is broken. When asked to help him commit suicide, Riker is appalled. Dr. Crusher does everything in her power to give him a good life without even entertaining suicide as an option and Deanna also IIRC tries to talk Worf out of it.

I think McCoy killed his dad and told no one about it. Thats part of the reason why it was so painful. If assisted suicide was a common thing in the Federation then McCoy would not be as plagued by the memories as he was.

There's a difference between society accepting the idea of assisted suicide and personally being repulsed when a close relative or friend asks you to do it.

I'm now going off line to celebrate 1000 posts. Hurray, Jedi-master!!!

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-13 02:28pm

The problem with killing Worf wasn't with euthanasia iit was the fact that he was only paralysed.

In the end Rikers decides to do it but finds out that according to Klingon tradition it isn't upto him, Picard is also in favour of letting Work die.

PICARD
I understand that Doctor Crusher
believes he will never regain the
use of his legs.

RIKER
That doesn't mean his life is
over.

PICARD
That's a very... Human
perspective, Will. But to any
Klingon in Worf's position...
life is over.

PICARD
If you were dying... terminally
ill from a disease for which there
was no cure... and the few
remaining days of your life would
be spent in pain. Don't you think
that you might come to see death
as... a release?

RIKER
Worf isn't dying and he's not in
pain... he can live a long life
without---

PICARD
(firm)
You or I could learn to live with
a disability of this kind. But
to Worf... his life ended when
those containers fell on him.
We don't have to agree with it...
we don't have to understand it...
but we do have to respect his
beliefs.

RIKER
(repeating for emphasis)
I can respect his beliefs, but
Worf wants me to take an active
role in ending his life.

Sorry for the big chunk of script but I think its necessary to show what were actually the attitudes in the episode.

I believe the Bolians practice euthanasia (it was said in the episode with Quinn).

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-13 03:33pm

TheDarkling wrote:Picard is also in favour of letting Worf die.

And Picard is the one who is usually emphasizing the importance of following the rules, like the Prime Directive. If Picard thinks helping Worf kill himself is OK, then it probably is legal in the Federation.

I believe the Bolians practice euthanasia (it was said in the episode with Quinn).

They technically aren't part of the Federation I believe (correct me if I'm wrong). However, IIRC, Lwaxana was the only person to express any concerns with the practice, so the example does seem to support the notion that suicide isn't generally frowned upon in the Federation. Either that or the Crew of the E-D simply didn't care thinking it was none of their business.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-02-13 03:45pm

The Captain Rixx, played by Micheal Berryman, captain of the USS Thomas Paine in TNG: "Conspiracy" was a Bolian. So I think that the Bolians are a part of the UFP.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-13 04:32pm

Is ending someones life, who is in serious pain, really that big of deal to some of you? Do you see a huge problem with that?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-13 04:38pm

Sir Sirius wrote:The Captain Rixx, played by Micheal Berryman, captain of the USS Thomas Paine in TNG: "Conspiracy" was a Bolian. So I think that the Bolians are a part of the UFP.

Well non-federation people can get into starfleet (I believe they need a recommendation from an officer).

I was also under the impression that the Bolians weren't members of the Federation (something about them trading with the Romulans or something but I was watching an episode the other day and Mot the Bolian barber said

BARBER
(sighs)
I told him we never should have
colonized that close to the
Cardassians...

He refers to the Federation as we but I suppose he himself may be a Federation citizen (maybe a colony of Bolians or he may just think of himself as a federation citizen) but their home system isn't.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-13 04:39pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Is ending someones life, who is in serious pain, really that big of deal to some of you? Do you see a huge problem with that?

/Snipe Mode

No they just have a problem with anything the Federation does that they can take offense to.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-13 04:42pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Is ending someones life, who is in serious pain, really that big of deal to some of you? Do you see a huge problem with that?
/Snipe Mode

No they just have a problem with anything the Federation does that they can take offense to.

I know that's why I asked the question. Frankly, it's starting to get irritating. It's almost as if they are trying to justify their love for the Empire, by making the UFP seem just as evil.

All Pro-SW people it's okay! Hold you heads up high! It's okay to like the Empire.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-13 04:46pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Is ending someones life, who is in serious pain, really that big of deal to some of you? Do you see a huge problem with that?
/Snipe Mode

No they just have a problem with anything the Federation does that they can take offense to.

I know that's why I asked the question. Frankly, it's starting to get irritating. It's almost as if they are trying to justify their love for the Empire, by making the UFP seem just as evil.

All Pro-SW people it's okay! Hold you heads up high! It's okay to like the Empire.

Don't you recall the poll that was done - the Empire isn't evil

.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-02-13 04:59pm

I think that what McCoy did is different than assisted suicide. His father was on life support and he removed the life support, letting his father die like he would have had he not been on life support to begin with, it happens even today. Assisted suicide would require him killing or help his father kill himself. McCoy had a problem with the fact that he let him die and shortly thereafter a cure was found to his disease.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-02-13 05:00pm

Hey, I like the Empire BECAUSE it's evil.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-13 05:02pm

IG-88E wrote:Hey, I like the Empire BECAUSE it's evil.

Right on! Be proud of who you are.........

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-02-13 08:25pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Enola Straight wrote:Are we to infer that assisted suicide is condoned in the Federation?
It would be in line with most of their extremely liberal rhetoric.

Er, I don't think assisted suicide is that "extremely liberal". Hell, it's legal in Oregon... at least it was before that trisexual coprophiliac Ashcroft came to power, then he started trying to intimidate doctors into not doing it. Bastard.

I should hope assisted suicide is condoned in the Federation.

I don't have a problem with what McCoy did; no cure was in sight, his father was in agony and wanted to die. I think McCoy did the merciful thing.

If assisted suicide was a common thing in the Federation then McCoy would not be as plagued by the memories as he was.

HELLO?!? He pulled the plug on his own dad! And then a cure was found a week later!!! Are you seriously trying to say that assisted suicide cheapens the worth of life so much that the death of a family member at your hands would not be a big deal? A death that, had he waited another week, wouldn't have been necessary?

I'd be pretty fucked up about that.

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-02-13 08:50pm

and what exactly is wrong with assisted suicide?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-14 12:18am

TheDarkling wrote:I was also under the impression that the Bolians weren't members of the Federation (something about them trading with the Romulans or something but I was watching an episode the other day and Mot the Bolian barber said

BARBER
(sighs)
I told him we never should have
colonized that close to the
Cardassians...

He refers to the Federation as we but I suppose he himself may be a Federation citizen (maybe a colony of Bolians or he may just think of himself as a federation citizen) but their home system isn't.

So the official word on Bolians being Fed members is: unknown. Some circumstantial evidence points to 'yes' but not enough to say with much certainty.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-14 12:20am

TheDarkling wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Is ending someones life, who is in serious pain, really that big of deal to some of you? Do you see a huge problem with that?
/Snipe Mode

No they just have a problem with anything the Federation does that they can take offense to.

With this particular issue, I really don't care what the Fed's position is. Don't make such sweeping generalizations.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-14 12:26am

Darth Servo wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:I was also under the impression that the Bolians weren't members of the Federation (something about them trading with the Romulans or something but I was watching an episode the other day and Mot the Bolian barber said

BARBER
(sighs)
I told him we never should have
colonized that close to the
Cardassians...

He refers to the Federation as we but I suppose he himself may be a Federation citizen (maybe a colony of Bolians or he may just think of himself as a federation citizen) but their home system isn't.
So the official word on Bolians being Fed members is: unknown. Some circumstantial evidence points to 'yes' but not enough to say with much certainty.

Word has it, that in the Episode, The Chase, there was a cut scene where Mot mentions that Bolarus was not a member of the Federation. If it means only the planet, or the species, I don't know. Or whether, since the scene was cut, it has no value.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-02-14 01:12am

Sorry, for a second I thought you all were talking about the writing on Boobyprise.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-14 04:09am

Darth Servo wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Is ending someones life, who is in serious pain, really that big of deal to some of you? Do you see a huge problem with that?
/Snipe Mode

No they just have a problem with anything the Federation does that they can take offense to.

With this particular issue, I really don't care what the Fed's position is. Don't make such sweeping generalizations.

I think he was refering to those that do.......

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-14 10:57am

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:/Snipe Mode

No they just have a problem with anything the Federation does that they can take offense to.

With this particular issue, I really don't care what the Fed's position is. Don't make such sweeping generalizations.
I think he was refering to those that do.......

Darkling and I have a bit of a history. See the old TOS uber-connie vs SSD thread.

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