SGU 109: "Life" (Spoilers)

[NecronLord]

Incidentally, the Dakara device makes much more sense if we take the word-substitution code on the wall as meaningful.

HEREIN CREATION SLEEPS
[HE]REIN CREATION SLEEPS THROUGH THIS PORTAL AWAITS ALL THAT IS LIFE THOUGH NOT THE CEATOR
- ON THIS I LIFT THE MALLET AND CHISEL WITH WHICH IS WRITTEN THE MOST SACRED OF STORIES THAT
- THIS MAY BE THE HAND THAT BUILDS OR DESTROYS ALL THAT WE KNOW NOT ONLY OF THIS WORLD BUT AS
- E CHAPPAAI THIS TOOL OF CREATION MUST BE SAFEGAURDED AT ANY COST FOR IN THIS WE HOLD THE P
- RAZE ENTIRE WOLRLDS THE SUPREME RESPONSIBILITY TO THOSE THAT MAY EMPLOY THIS DEVICE
- E SNACTITY OF LIFE OF THESE THAT COULD LIVE IN HARMONY WITH US AND OTHERS ALL THESE RUL[ES]
- [TH]ESE RULES SHALL BE OBEYED AT ALL TIMES UNDER PENALTY OF THE HIGHEST DEGREE THUS
- [TH]IS DEVICE MUST ONLY BE USED FORBETTERMENT OF LIFE OR FOR SELF PRESERVATION
- DEVICE BE ACTIVATED WITHOUT THE APPROVAL FROM PIVERNANCE OF THE HIGH COUNCIL
- [W]ORLD BE SEEDED WITHOUT THE MENTORSHIP OF THE SCIENTIFIC COUNCILS APPROVAL AND THE GRA
- REWARDSHIP TO THE OVERSEERS ADMITTANCE TO THESE HALLS OF CREATION MUST BE IN ACCORDANCE
- [C]ODE OF CONDUCT AS RECOGNIZED BY THE SUPREME COUNCIL OF THIS THERE MAY BE NO DEVIATIONS

Alas, nowhere is there 'midday the sun is high in the sky' or anything like that - it makes a lot more sense this way and outright says that they kept it around to use for the betterment of life, seeding new planets, and self preservation, and that admittance of unauthorised persons would suffer 'penalty of the highest degree' - presumably it was guarded while the Ancients' society endured, though of course, that wouldn't explain why the 'halls of creation' would not be sealed properly.

Alas, this can't really be taken as canon, but certainly gives an interesting perspective into what the props department, at least, thought the thing had been used for by the ancients, and the legal oversight in its use.

It also implies those stone monuments are actually made using hammers and chisels, too. Ooops.

[NecronLord]

With this in mind the Stargate exploding weapon also found by Anubis and left behind by the Ancients was equally as dangerous and we have no idea at all how well hidden that getup was.

I specifically exclude anything found by the bad guys, like the Aterro device, Nirrti's genetic manipulator, and that thing, because we don't know how hard they are to find or use.

[DesertFly]

It also implies those stone monuments are actually made using hammers and chisels, too. Ooops.

I know this might be stretching it, but that could easily just be the formal way of saying "was written", in the same way that someone might say that words came from their pen, even though their speech is written on the computer.

[CaptJodan]

Presumably the Wraith aren't what they were when they started their war with the Ancients and thus less of a challenge.

I'm not sure how that could be proved in any meaningful way. They're certainly making advances in the use of ZPM technology lately.

As for how they're decimated; that's what starvation, civil war, war with the Asurans, disease (hoffan drug via michael) will do that. We've seen or heard of almost thirty of their original sixty hive ships destroyed, and while that doesn't count cruisers and any more hives they've laid down, that's got to be a sizeable chunk of their population.

The show, to the end, has never really implied that the Wraith are hurting so much that the cullings are down. Even if the Wraith are hurting, it seems the human population is still suffering about as much as they were from the beginning.

They could indeed. The reasons for their withdrawl were never said to be military.[/quote

I always felt it was implied. If there is another reason, I'd sure like to know it.

It doesn't work. What would some other race do with it? They'd have to translate the texts to turn it on, and do what? Time loop some barren planets? Big whoop, let em. Were I one of the scientists involved, I'd rather fuck off and get a jumbo crate of painkillers and condoms to let the end come, rather than spending time dismantling the damn thing on the offchance some hypothetical aliens stumble across it in the future who're advanced enough to comprehend it but not wise enough to use it wisely, and indeed, dumb or desperate enough to use it maliciously, given that you'd have to actually set out to cause serious harm to people with that thing.

This is assuming it's not some more-advanced race than themselves anyway.
.....
That would require more advanced technology than the Ancients had. Rendering the point moot. Such a race would need superior power systems; the Ancients had to rely on a unique property of that planet, and would therefore probably be superior in all respects.

Given how easy it is to reprogram ancient tech, and we've seen reprogramming of Ancient tech to do all manner of things it wasn't necessarily deigned to do, I think an effort to reprogram where that device dialed would be an easy way to make the device work. Instead of disassembling and transplanting it somewhere, just have it dial the planet you're at war with. Up to...what..30 at once? That's probably not beyond the Goa'uld, Ancients themselves, or Rodney McKay. I doubt it'd be beyond the Asgard. Hell, it'd be better than their time-dilation device, and we know that they have some skill in that area (and even so, we're not talking about trying to bridge the gap between what their time dilation stuff does and what this machine does, only just dialing a different gate network when activating the device).

[CaptJodan]

I specifically exclude anything found by the bad guys, like the Aterro device, Nirrti's genetic manipulator, and that thing, because we don't know how hard they are to find or use.

I agree with the first justification for exclusion, but not the second. They're "easy enough" for a Goa'uld/Assgard (with human help on the latter) to use, although clearly Nirrti didn't have a perfect understanding of her device (but that led to the very abuse of the device we see). How hard it was for them to find these devices, of course, remains the real mystery.

Besides, I thought Attero was off limits because the key to using it was on Altantis, and thus kind of just goes along with Atlantis as a whole.

[NecronLord]

I'm not sure how that could be proved in any meaningful way. They're certainly making advances in the use of ZPM technology lately.

The show, to the end, has never really implied that the Wraith are hurting so much that the cullings are down. Even if the Wraith are hurting, it seems the human population is still suffering about as much as they were from the beginning.

It's outright said they're in a bad way in episodes like 'The Queen' where Todd is considering letting the humans change his very genetics so that they can stop fighting over which humans to eat...

I always felt it was implied. If there is another reason, I'd sure like to know it.

War-weariness; as you point out, given what we know, they could have held out there much longer, but they clearly didn't consider that an option.

Given how easy it is to reprogram ancient tech, and we've seen reprogramming of Ancient tech to do all manner of things it wasn't necessarily deigned to do, I think an effort to reprogram where that device dialed would be an easy way to make the device work. Instead of disassembling and transplanting it somewhere, just have it dial the planet you're at war with. Up to...what..30 at once? That's probably not beyond the Goa'uld, Ancients themselves, or Rodney McKay. I doubt it'd be beyond the Asgard. Hell, it'd be better than their time-dilation device, and we know that they have some skill in that area (and even so, we're not talking about trying to bridge the gap between what their time dilation stuff does and what this machine does, only just dialing a different gate network when activating the device).

The planets were all geographically proximate, and supposedly the field was a massive one that ecompassed the entire region of space. We can assume it must be at the centre of the area it encloses.

Incidentally, we don't know if ships can leave the affected area. I wouldn't want to try that on replicators; for all you know, you'd let them come roaring out of the affected volume over and over every day. Even then, they're smart, and it's quite possible that they'd notice being cut off from the rest of the universe in a certain volume, and go to the central planet there to see what's happening. And then hijack the machine to aid replication, unless you put in place sufficient forces to destroy them all.

I agree with the first justification for exclusion, but not the second. They're "easy enough" for a Goa'uld/Assgard (with human help on the latter) to use, although clearly Nirrti didn't have a perfect understanding of her device (but that led to the very abuse of the device we see). How hard it was for them to find these devices, of course, remains the real mystery.

There's no reason to think that Nirrti didn't understand it - Carter thinks she might be able to puzzle it out given a few days and a whole team. Nirrti may not have known how to create a stable hok'tar, but that's not to say she didn't know how to use the device to reprogram someone's genetics.

[The Yosemite Bear]

not bad, still think it would been nice if senator's daughter had sat in the chair....

[Sarevok]

not bad, still think it would been nice if senator's daughter had sat in the chair....

What that grants her superpowers and she becomes even more annoying ? Chloe with superpowers would be like an emoer version of River.

[NecronLord]

You know, I don't think its 'emo' to be depressed when your dad has just died and you're stuck in a deathtrap on the far side of the universe, with a negligable chance of seeing your home ever again.

Mind, I would rather like Chloe to sit in the chair and gain the Knowledge of the Ancients (non brain-overload version) just because it'd be hilarious to watch her rub it in Rush's face if she did.

[CaptJodan]

You know, I don't think its 'emo' to be depressed when your dad has just died and you're stuck in a deathtrap on the far side of the universe, with a negligable chance of seeing your home ever again.

Mind, I would rather like Chloe to sit in the chair and gain the Knowledge of the Ancients (non brain-overload version) just because it'd be hilarious to watch her rub it in Rush's face if she did.

I don't think she has the personality to be that much of a dick, but then I don't know. I'd rather her sit in the chair just so she has something useful to contribute (yes, I took note of last week's usefulness, but that wasn't this Chloe).

I'm also hoping that the chair isn't a full blown knowledge machine, but maybe just some kind of control interface that requires far more knowledge to use than "think "fly"" like the newer chairs are.

[Bilbo]

It would make no sense for the Chair to grant the knowledge of the Ancients. Far more likely is the chair was designed to quickly download to someone sitting in it a complete rundown of the data gathered by the Destiny and her sister ships that were deployed.

[Zac Naloen]

I'm beginning to wonder if Rush actually knows as much about Ancient culture and History as he makes out.

He can read the language and he can work his way round theship better than others but...


He keeps guessing the age of destiny wrong, and now he's talking about the command chairs as if they are a repository of knowledge when in fact all they are... is a command interface that don't download anything but what you need to know.


I think it would be an interesting episode if one day in a future season they have one of the actual experts come aboard the ship and truly show Rush up in that regard.

[NecronLord]

Ooor, he's had a chance to examine it and it is closer to a headsucker than the Throne Chairs.

[Bilbo]

I think it is a knowledge downloader like the head sucker. I just do not see it downloading the "knowlege of the ancients". There is no reason for such a device to be on the ship.

It makes more sense that it downloads info the ship has gathered along with access codes for the ship since it makes sense that a login passcode could get lost of thousands of years.

What I would also expect is that it takes more than just sitting in the chair. There should be at least a little bit of security where you have to initialize the chair in some way so that just anyone human shaped that gets on the ship doesnt use the chair to gain knowledge of how to control the ship.

[CaptainChewbacca]

It would be interesting for a 2nd-tier character to sit in the chair and get a onetime 'Known Universe' wiki dumped into their head. All of a sudden they're a semi-mystical 'guide' with lots of 'This way, this is where we're supposed to go but don't ask me how I know'.

Oh wait, that's Teyla post-wraith-powers.

[The Yosemite Bear]

1. if it just taught her how to interface with the ship, that would be a major improvement character/function wise.
2. no she's not enough of a bitch to slap down rush (not that he doesn't need it), but it would be fun for her to be able too.

[JME2]

Overall, I liked it. Glad to see Wray fleshed out, the predecessor of the control chair, Rush being a bastard, and Young decking Telford.

5/5

[Oskuro]

Chloe with superpowers would be like an emoer version of River.

Well, she does look a bit like Summer Glau after all.

Oh wait, that's Teyla post-wraith-powers.

And that's the reason it would totally suck. Rememeber how they've handled the headsuckers before? With all the autopiloting crap to solve their problems? Although we could argue this version of the device wouldn't have all that data, I won't put it past the writers to brainbug the autopilot thing in.

[NecronLord]

And that's the reason it would totally suck. Rememeber how they've handled the headsuckers before? With all the autopiloting crap to solve their problems? Although we could argue this version of the device wouldn't have all that data, I won't put it past the writers to brainbug the autopilot thing in.

I suggest you take a look at the brainbugs page; that term is not meant to describe 'similar technology has similar effects' at all. The word you're reaching for is perhaps 'consistancy?' - 'I wouldn't put it past the writers to consistancy the autopilot thing in.'

[Oskuro]

The idea of brainbugs is that of elements of an story that keep popping up just because they did before, not because there's a reason for them to be. For example, the exploding consoles in Star Trek becoming prevalent because the writers of later shows assumed that was how they should be, instead of it being an isolated case. Mike, obviously, explains it best.

In this case, the idea for the autopiloting of a headsucker victim is that their subconscious uses the vast information to find a solution, while their conscious mind is slowly shutting down (I think it was explained like that the first time Jack got into one).

I would consider it a brainbug if the writers assume that all ancient database downloads end up with the character losing control and being mysteriously wise (autopilot) regardless of what the database contains.

It would be cool if using the chair provided the character with vast knowledge about the explorations of the Destiny, it would not be nice if it was a Deus Ex Machina to solve itself yet again.

[NecronLord]

The thing is, though, brainbugs are by definition, an exxaggeration; the jefferies tubes got more and more common. The exploding consoles likewise, and so on. All this would be would be a similar technology in a more bulky and equally creepy form. Holy moley, you mean the Ancients used related technologies that would do similar things?

As for autopilot; that's not a great analogy- O'Neill was in both cases using his expanded knowledge to make rational decisions, still following his own goals (Use knowledge to benefit earth, save his team, get cured, destroy Anubis' fleet etc) - it just rendered him uncommunicative. There's no reason that a different but equally overwhelming knowledge set wouldn't do the same thing. While part of his conciousness was out of the loop, I don't think autopilot is a useful way to put it.

As for DeM, see my previous rants on how that term is abused. O'Neill seeking out cures both times is not a Deus Ex Machina, a Deus Ex Machina would be the Asgard coming down from the heavens to save him with no foreshadowing; in Fifth Race we see him preparing the device to go to Othalla, and in Lost City half of the sequel episode is about finding Thor to come help. Neither is a 'God from the Machine.'

[Zac Naloen]

The only blatant Deux Ex Machina I can think of in Stargate is the Wormhole Drive.

[Oskuro]

Ok, ok, I concede it isn't strictly a brainbug, I just don't want it becoming one. Besides, it'd be nice if they did something new with this device, rather than rethread previous plotlines. Maybe whomever uses the device is in no mortal peril but have their mental capacities (like speech) altered somewhat? Maybe there's an alien consciousness (Ancient or not) uploaded there and we get a possesion plotline? Maybe the thing simply fries whomever sits on it, thus increasing the tension between Rush and Young? Maybe the possesing entity I suggested before tries to use the stones to get to Earth and do something nasty?

Ok, enough

[Sarevok]

Does anyone know why there was not any Stargate Universe this week ?

[NecronLord]

I imagine it might be connected to the US public holiday.